Stealth Revisit Improvements

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

On 2020-07-14 at 8:26 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

@(PS4)SchemeBag  @(PS4)yokai1235 Ok so do you have any solutions based on my ideas? or any of your own?

Honestly, I made a whole post about stealth (specifically invisibility) and what I felt it would need to feel more rewarding/fun. I think you read it already, and it would be bad to just copy/paste that into here.

There's also an issue with scope in this article. There are many line items that don't seem to have anything to do with stealth since they involve movement or AI that don't have any specific caveats related to stealth. For instance, are we talking about sliding into an unalerted enemy? Is the change in enemy alert mechanics dependent on any stealthy behavior or invisibility? I don't think shooting enemies would count as stealth in most cases.

The start of this article mentioned Ash's teleport and how it is inconsistent with opening enemies up to finishers. That is one issue that is specific to Ash.

You also mentioned nearby enemies looking and becoming alerted (when teleport fails?). This is presumably a problem because teleport is inconsistent. If teleport causes alert when it is functioning normally (i.e. more than a melee attack would, with no enemies looking), then it seems that there are still more problems with Ash's teleport and may be a bug.

I mentioned in my post about Ash and Loki causing possible bugs in alert when they cast. It's a weird issue, but more of a frame/ability-specific bug and not really part of the stealth mechanics of the game.

With some of the specific items, it seems like those features either 1) already potentially exist in a slightly different or inconsistent form or 2) may have difficulty adding anything of value to stealth or 3) seem to go against the types of changes that I already mentioned in my post.

To point out a few line items:

 >>> "Each time you kill an enemy in the air, you will get one extra jump and makes you glide in the air slower and longer"

Unless I'm mistaken, this means you want Aerial Ace to be innate to all frames. Taking away mods to make them built-in to all frames seems like a far stretch...

 >>> "Crouching. It will automatically show enemies on the mini map infinitely. Standing up will show it for 10 seconds until it disappears, crouching again will show it up again."

This seems like a good innate ability for a sneaky/stealthy/hunter type of warframe, but shouldn't be automatically on every frame. This is clearly an ability enhancement that is thematic. It will also seem redundant if players were concerned about the minimap enough to equip enemy radar or companion mods.

 >>> "When crouching, a metre bar will appear above enemies’ heads showing enemies` alert state."

>>> "  Crouching will reduce the range of enemy vision from 15m down to 12m."

These kinds of changes are so niche, so particular, that they will not add much to the game unless stealth was a skill pivotal to success. Unless there was actually a reason to do stealth well, this will not impact stealth because stealth will not impact success. (I already find it hard to count _invisibility_ as stealth because I mainly consider it cheese in its current state.) Besides, what does "12m instead of 15m" do for the game? There's not much explanation for these very niche suggestions.

>>> " If you kill an enemy with your melee weapon, the body will disappear."

Since it already disappears after a set amount of time, I don't know if you meant "disappear instantly".

>>> " If you get three stealth finishers in a row, you will get 20% increased crouch speed for 20 seconds."

I don't know what "increased crouch speed means". Did you mean the time it takes to get into crouch or move faster while crouched? Either way, this could be a niche mod for certain people's playstyles. But I honestly don't see crouch used much in the game at all except rarely as cover from fire. Did you mean this to be a specific synergy available to specific frames and/or playstyles?

I feel like the lines about the mini-map were focused on very particular personal preferences. I don't think they need to be a default change for everyone though. Enemies and items on the radar already have little arrows to show if they are above or below you. (Replacing that in favor of a darker shade would actually remove a piece of information: is it up or down...) The red arrow already points in the direction they are facing. Making sentries blue instead of red would honestly be confusing for many players, especially since sentries are only found in specific areas of the game.

Also, I have slid into an enemy and knocked them down. It's happened a few times while moving much faster than a normal run speed. I remember those moments because I didn't think that was a game mechanic and it slightly surprised me. Maybe I mistook what happened, but it may already be implemented in a way that hardly gets noticed. Still, it might just be an inconsistent game mechanic already...

Lastly, the countdown for an enemy to return to "unalerted" seems variable, but I don't know how a static 15 second timer would help stealth in general. Also, enemies get alerted when they _see_ you. Shooting them just makes them look in your direction. (Like I said in my post, I've been testing this with invisibility ad-nauseum.) Hearing your shots or watching someone next to them get shot just makes them look in your direction (become suspicious), which causes them to see you which causes them to alert/shoot/run. If they already see you, I don't know why they'd need to wait for their friend to hit you; that would just make their behavior seem worse than it already is. The alert mechanic is already very poorly implemented and the reason I have such an issue with invisibility and enemy AI.

Bottom line: I think this post may suffer from scope-creep and could use some separation (or at least more explanations). I don't think all of these should be in one post because, instead of talking about the core stealth mechanic, this throws in many, many other topics like specific _bugs_ (should definitely have its own post), UI changes, general movement changes, tiny changes to timers and distances, etc, etc. These could be interesting topics if split up in a more manageable way or with more explanation as to "why". Without that, I find it hard to imagine a lot of them impacting the need, the challenge or the fun of playing with stealth in its current form.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

On 2020-07-14 at 8:26 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

@(PS4)SchemeBag  @(PS4)yokai1235 Ok so do you have any solutions based on my ideas? or any of your own?

I forgot to also mention, the new mission type that you mentioned could be an interesting idea. I think it's an interesting combination of capture and spy.

I have also been lamenting the lack of any real need for parkour in missions. (We mainly bullet jump because it's faster than running.)

Unless I missed it though, the main impacts of failing stealth are reserved for the vault portion, so that mimics the way spy works now. What is the consequence/recourse of failing to be stealthy in the other parts? Would there be any specific reason to care if the capture target or nearby enemies were alerted to you? Re-reading it, I see the part about diminishing rewards. Though it does get confusing with the implication of multiple alarms. Are these base alarms or stacking alarms? Would they change the behavior of the capture targets?

That said, without any "gotchas" to being invis the entire time, I don't see how certain frames like Ivara would be challenged by it. It might run the risk of becoming another play-to-grind instead of play-to-be-challenged mission if invis, alert mechanics, enemy kit, etc, didn't get some proper tweaks.

It is interesting though. Something like this could potentially be tweaked into a new raid-type mission, something a lot of us have been yearning for. I honestly think a mode like this could be well suited to a cooperative playstyle, something else sorely missing from the game.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

On 2020-07-13 at 7:38 PM, (PS4)yokai1235 said:

invisibility isn't a stealth is a clutch to be stealth you need to sneak around in the end the only way is nerf invisibility so enemies will notice the sound you make and if you bunp into them the invisibility is turned of like on early assassin's creed games were if the enemy entered close to you the camouflage is broken 

I actually proposed this in my "Better AI, plz" post. I can bump-n-grind on them all day while invisible and it does seem ridiculous.

It's honestly been a while since I did stealth without an invis frame (spy) because once you get an Ivara, Octavia, etc, there isn't much reason to _not_ use them. (excuse my double negative)

I think most games that emphasize the _need_ for stealth (i.e. sticking to the shadows), present a scenario that shows you "this is a dark area, this is a light area; notice the difference in things seeing you". Warframe obviously doesn't have much of a tutorial, and in my many hours of the game, I never bothered to care what's technically a dark or light area in almost any tileset. Spy is the only real example of needing stealth at all, and it is just a matter of learning how to navigate a small map-tile and/or find shortcuts.

I used to be very into older stealth games, like the original Thief game, but those games _forced_ you to understand the shadows and take your time; your character was practically useless at fighting anyways. Warframe does give you more options to brute-force your way through a scenario. Even in sortie spy, I see many players just expect to brute-force through the vaults, sometimes not even knowing how it's laid out at all. This is the result of an overall game focus that hardly ever involves stealth and rarely has consequences for such things.

I don't specifically have an issue with stealth (thanks to Limbo for being my old spymaster). I just think the current form of the game does not make it important in a meaningful way.

[(PSN)yokai1235]

On 2020-07-15 at 9:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I agree with the 1st part, i`m not going to act like I came up with it 1st but I did have them ideas in mind I just forgot to add them to this but yes we are in agreement, I like the parazon idea, that would make playing stealth much more enjoyable. Do you have any ideas for rewards that we could get at the end of the mission? possibly any new ones?

parazon mods related for stealth gun parts for new weapon or weapon skin lore fragments related to objective or npc alternative to farm ivara or simply new resouce or just rare ones and relics with harder one giving radiant 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Just to mention when it comes to some of the mechanics I have mentioned some of them can be specificity to this game-mode. For example warframes with invisibility abilities will only have a 3 second duration, this will make is to where you can`t just blow through the mission. and make it somewhat fair for other frame without it.

[(PSN)SchemeBag]

On 2020-07-24 at 8:21 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Just to mention when it comes to some of the mechanics I have mentioned some of them can be specificity to this game-mode. For example warframes with invisibility abilities will only have a 3 second duration, this will make is to where you can`t just blow through the mission. and make it somewhat fair for other frame without it.

The new quest added this notion, forcing the character to do old-school stealth with impairment of all abilities. It worked with the story and I thought it was a welcomed change to mix things up and be interesting. I'd be interested in seeing more like that (like your 3 second duration idea) if it had some plausible 'mcguffin' or concept behind it. Let's mix things up!

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

On 2020-06-05 at 8:35 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Point of View

·       If one enemy is alerted to you, enemies nearby won`t be alerted until the alerted enemy starts shooting.

·       Melee enemies don’t alert nearby enemies until they hit you.

·       There will be an exclamation indicator mark shown on the screen for 2 seconds to show the enemy that is about to hack the alarm. It also can be seen through all solid objects.

·       If you are out of the enemy`s sight it will take 15 seconds before they revert back to being un-alerted.

·       If you get three kills while hanging on a wall before the hang timer diminishes, you will receive 10 critical damage for 15 seconds, it also carries over to fly-kicks.

·       Each time you kill an enemy in the air, you will get one extra jump and makes you glide in the air slower and longer.

·       Sliding into an enemy will knock them down

Let's go 1 by 1

1. Enemies call out. That's something they do. They're not gonna see you and then not say anything. (Breaks immersion and logic)

2. Again... they're not just gonna let you roam free without alerting others (Breaks immersion and logic)

3. This would be helpful, because it can be very difficult to discern if someone is on a terminal when there is a ton of enemies. The Tenno, being the skilled warrior, would be able to discern who is on a terminal and make a mental note that they should be a target. It cannot go through walls though. That wouldn't make sense. (Fits in with immersion and logic if not through walls)

4. Absolutely not. An enemy isn't just gonna forget you are there unless you lull them to sleep or use something that resets alert status. If I'm in a war zone and an enemy sees me, they aren't gonna act like I'm not there if I hide for 15 seconds. Referring to 1 and 2, that same soldier isn't gonna say nothing to his comrades if he spots me. (Breaks immersion and logic)

5. 10 critical damage? Do you mean 10x? That would be way too much. There already is a mod for increased damage while wall latching. (It wouldn't make sense to have this be a base mechanic. What would be giving you that extra strength? (Lacks sense)

6. Aerial Ace exists for this, and I see no reason why a slower fall/longer glide mod per kill couldn't be a thing. You DO have mods that do this already though. Aero Vantage (among others) makes you not fall and other mods help with duration. Doesn't make sense as to what this would be an innate feature? Where would that strength come from if it's a base feature? (Lacks sense)

7. Why? I could see this if you were Rhino because he is intentionally hefty, but most frames are quite light-They have to be because they were made to be.. Especially on larger enemies, I don't think a slide would knock them down. Maybe if you meet a certain Velocity of slide like if you have Nezha passive or if you have slide mods. With those effects, the start of the slide is very fast; so that could work. (Makes sense given that it's not for everyone at all times. Velocity would have to play a role alongside enemy size and armor weight) (There could be a mod that knocks down with a slide, but it'd get abused.)

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-08-31 at 8:35 PM, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

-snip-

Before I get into this, this is a illogical game so using the words like making it make sense" idc about. Gas clouds can destroy explosive barrels that make no sense but it`s in the game and does anyone complain about it? no why? coz it works and is fun to watch. This isn`t cod this is a futuristic game where logic goes out of the window.

• Don`t you play warframe the enemy that`s alerted makes a nose but the others don`t react until they start attacking and hear the gun shots maybe thats a bug but that`s what happens, go back and play it and you will see.
• Again don`t you play warframe? the melee enemies don`t shout  for back up as soon as they see you they just run up and attack you the way they are alerted they act like the infested, it makes sense for the infested to work like that due to them being connected but for grineer and corpus not really. 
• This should go through wall coz it it didn`t you wouldn`t get a chance to see them and reach them before you get to them in time. By your "logic" extraction points should not be seen through walls as well, make DE take that feature out of them game and see what ppl would say. (kicks logic)
• Yes a feature happens like this in other games so why can`t warframe. (hard yes)
• Ok 10 would be too much however this would give ppl the incentive to want to play a certain way.
• Duh I know this but most ppl don`t use those mods due to the fact that they would rather put something else on than this mods and its fun. (idc about sense)
• Because for fun`s sake, you could do this in ninja gaiden and it was fun to knock an enemy down and beat them up before they got back up plus if we can do a fly-kick then why not this?   

I can see whats going to happen after this so I will respectfully block you, i don`t have an interest in going back and forth with you so i`ll end it here.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

@(PS4)SchemeBag Yes I enjoyed that it was a really good change of pase, this game dosen`t really force you to play stealthily despite it being a game about ninjas. What I said about frame like Ash, Loki and Ivara having 3 seconds of invis is actually fun, it makes you had to think strategically and move accordingly seriously take a Ash or a loki, decrease their duration to 4 or 3 seconds and play a mission stealthily, it`s so much more fun than having a long invis duration. 

 

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

Wow

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I can see whats going to happen after this so I will respectfully block you, i don`t have an interest in going back and forth with you so i`ll end it here.

What a beta. Starts a debate and then blocks me. Internet is such a beta-full place. If he was confident enough in his argument, he wouldn't need to block me. So disrespectful. Considers his word to be more important. Guess only those with agreeing opinions get to speak to him.