Remove mission kill timer from Syndicate Disruption

[(NSW)CosmicChaos]

There exists a kill timer to fail this mission type. Presumably it exists to prevent farming exploits such as stalling on a wave that spawns particular enemies which is understandable and useful. Less understandable is that the kill timer still activates after completion of a Syndicate Disruption mission.

Unlike their normal counterparts Syndicate versions of Disruption missions are not endless and have a definitive end after 4 successes at which point Disruption towers, demolyst enemies and wave specific enemies no longer appear and extraction is available.

Collecting the 8 medallions when the mission is done is... Disrupted by the kill timer which will still activate and fail the mission despite the mission being completed.

Please fix, thanks!

[ES-Flinter]

Just collect the medallions at first. Problem solved.

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-06-08 at 2:46 PM, ES-Flinter said:

Just collect the medallions at first. Problem solved.

But for newer players, success in Disruption is not assured.

So, who would want to comb the entire map for Medallions first, if there's a possibility they might fail and lose them all?

It's more sensible for a new player to complete the mission, then search. The timer then becomes a nasty surprise which wastes the time and effort they have invested in the mission. They will know better the next time, of course, but isn't it preferable to obviate that bad experience entirely?

[Nichivo]

Success being assured in missions, is currently the biggest problem in Warframe. Please! Lets not lower the skill gap anymore on anything. These can easily be solo'd and get all the syndicate medallions. There is no need to constantly make content trivial for the sake of new players. Besides if you are running syndicate missions you aren't really that new.

[Sevek7]

On 2020-06-08 at 9:41 AM, (NSW)CosmicChaos said:

There exists a kill timer to fail this mission type. Presumably it exists to prevent farming exploits such as stalling on a wave that spawns particular enemies which is understandable and useful. Less understandable is that the kill timer still activates after completion of a Syndicate Disruption mission.

Unlike their normal counterparts Syndicate versions of Disruption missions are not endless and have a definitive end after 4 successes at which point Disruption towers, demolyst enemies and wave specific enemies no longer appear and extraction is available.

Collecting the 8 medallions when the mission is done is... Disrupted by the kill timer which will still activate and fail the mission despite the mission being completed.

Please fix, thanks!

Agreed, there shouldn't be mission timers in syndicate missions after completing the objective, or at least they should be very generous timers like the sabotage one.

7 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Success being assured in missions, is currently the biggest problem in Warframe. Please! Lets not lower the skill gap anymore on anything. These can easily be solo'd and get all the syndicate medallions. There is no need to constantly make content trivial for the sake of new players. Besides if you are running syndicate missions you aren't really that new.

You're right that warframe is a win-simulator. But adding a mission timer doesn't reduce that unless you give people 20 seconds to get to extraction after completing an objective. Generally speaking, those of us who want challenge are looking to feel threatened by the enemies (which hasn't happened since 2015 at the latest). A fail-timer doesn't help this in my opinion.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb OmegaVoid:

But for newer players, success in Disruption is not assured.

So, who would want to comb the entire map for Medallions first, if there's a possibility they might fail and lose them all?

It's more sensible for a new player to complete the mission, then search. The timer then becomes a nasty surprise which wastes the time and effort they have invested in the mission. They will know better the next time, of course, but isn't it preferable to obviate that bad experience entirely?

I would say that the chance of success does increase and not decrease. The longer someone stays in the mission without completing the main task the higher is the chance that someone other will join the mission. Sure that also means that more enemies will spawn, but alone the revive option makes losing a mission almost impossible. 

And people who play solo are normally aware of the risk to fail the mission.

[Nichivo]

7 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

Agreed, there shouldn't be mission timers in syndicate missions after completing the objective, or at least they should be very generous timers like the sabotage one.

You're right that warframe is a win-simulator. But adding a mission timer doesn't reduce that unless you give people 20 seconds to get to extraction after completing an objective. Generally speaking, those of us who want challenge are looking to feel threatened by the enemies (which hasn't happened since 2015 at the latest). A fail-timer doesn't help this in my opinion.

That's not entirely true. There have been challenging enemies, and content. They just all get nerfed, because of people whining. Pair that with some major power creep, and you end up where we are now. Solo railjack was a blast. I didn't find it particularly challenging, but it could keep you on your toes. Now look at railjack. It's comical how easy it has become. Nope! The reason we will never see challenge is people crying, "It's too hard".

[Sevek7]

54 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

That's not entirely true. There have been challenging enemies, and content. They just all get nerfed, because of people whining. Pair that with some major power creep, and you end up where we are now. Solo railjack was a blast. I didn't find it particularly challenging, but it could keep you on your toes. Now look at railjack. It's comical how easy it has become. Nope! The reason we will never see challenge is people crying, "It's too hard".

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Personally, all of those "nerfed" challenges were not challenging to me even before the nerf. I think the problem is that every frame has an immediate invincibility button with no drawback, along with a whole host of ways to crowd control all enemies with no drawback. If we really want challenge, we need ability and operator duration lockouts, and the operator needs to pop out with zero energy, not full energy. 

Anyway, the whole point I was trying to make here in this thread was that a fail-timer in syndicate missions is not exactly a good challenge in Warframe, as you suggested.

[Nichivo]

1 hour ago, Sevek7 said:

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Personally, all of those "nerfed" challenges were not challenging to me even before the nerf. I think the problem is that every frame has an immediate invincibility button with no drawback, along with a whole host of ways to crowd control all enemies with no drawback. If we really want challenge, we need ability and operator duration lockouts, and the operator needs to pop out with zero energy, not full energy. 

Anyway, the whole point I was trying to make here in this thread was that a fail-timer in syndicate missions is not exactly a good challenge in Warframe, as you suggested.

I solo'd pre nerf to max levels on mott. Yet I am still going to disagree with you. I think it's more likely you didn't experience some of the pre nerf things. Pre nerf prosecutors, manics, ancients, feral kubrow. It's actually a longer list than you think. I was doing all day solo toroid farms in Orb Vallis pre nerf. I am curious though. Even with all my solo arbitration, endless runs, and stay till only one person has revives left challenges. I have not managed to rack up even close to the number of failed, and quit missions you have. How did you manage that?

Edited June 9, 2020 by Nichivo

[Sevek7]

1 hour ago, Nichivo said:

Pre nerf prosecutors, manics, ancients, feral kubrow. It's actually a longer list than you think.

Yeah but these were all before the end of 2015 (I did mention there was challenge at the latest in 2015 back in my earlier post) The only one you mentioned from within the last 4 years was orb vallis toroid farming. I did that solo too, just like you, and never felt it was difficult. 

As for my failed missions, I suspect they're mostly from early 2014 when I was trying to solo void towers with my trusty mag and Latron. Those were good times 🙂 had a lot of fun with that challenging content.

As for the quit missions, probably from competing in various challenges over the years where it was highly beneficial to get a particular map layout. I also quit a lot when farming Quellor from early railjack since the mission types were a coin flip and only one type had the galleon commander. I'm sure there were other points in Warframe's history where the most effective way to play was to abort fast and repeat (like the recent Ivara intrinsics farm). 

I haven't really kept track of those numbers, and nobody has ever pointed them out before, perhaps I should be ashamed?

[OmegaVoid]

On 2020-06-09 at 8:02 PM, ES-Flinter said:

The longer someone stays in the mission without completing the main task the higher is the chance that someone other will join the mission.

Any Medallions picked up by players already on the map will not be available to a player spawning in afterwards. So if the player wants to collect all the Medallions it's not sensible to play Syndicate missions in public matchmaking.

If you spawn into a Syndicate mission and there's a player or two already running around the map, they may well have picked up a bunch of Medallions without even realising that they were denying you those drops.

Which isn't good either, but it's a separate issue. My point is, doing Syndicate missions solo is a sensible choice.

On 2020-06-09 at 7:42 PM, Nichivo said:

Besides if you are running syndicate missions you aren't really that new.

I seem to remember having the option to initiate with the Syndicates when I first arrived at Larunda Relay. That's pretty early-game. Presumably new players can do it at Strata, right at the start of the game.

Players can be presented with Syndicate Disruption missions while they are still using low-tier weapons with minimal modding. Feasible to beat, but by no means easy.

On 2020-06-09 at 8:02 PM, ES-Flinter said:

the revive option makes losing a mission almost impossible.

Lose all four Conduits in a round of Disruption = fail. Doesn't matter how many revives the player has left.

Successfully defend at least one Conduit, then you get another round... but the levels are increased, meaning players who struggled in round 1 are going to have an even harder time in round 2.

On 2020-06-09 at 8:02 PM, ES-Flinter said:

And people who play solo are normally aware of the risk to fail the mission.

Which is why it's sensible to complete the mission before taking time to scour the map for Medallions.

An unexpected and unwarned-of fail timer therefore can punish the player for making sensible decisions. That's why I agree with the OP.

Edited June 11, 2020 by OmegaVoid
Struck through info which was outdated.

[Nichivo]

7 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Yeah but these were all before the end of 2015 (I did mention there was challenge at the latest in 2015 back in my earlier post) The only one you mentioned from within the last 4 years was orb vallis toroid farming. I did that solo too, just like you, and never felt it was difficult. 

As for my failed missions, I suspect they're mostly from early 2014 when I was trying to solo void towers with my trusty mag and Latron. Those were good times 🙂 had a lot of fun with that challenging content.

As for the quit missions, probably from competing in various challenges over the years where it was highly beneficial to get a particular map layout. I also quit a lot when farming Quellor from early railjack since the mission types were a coin flip and only one type had the galleon commander. I'm sure there were other points in Warframe's history where the most effective way to play was to abort fast and repeat (like the recent Ivara intrinsics farm). 

I haven't really kept track of those numbers, and nobody has ever pointed them out before, perhaps I should be ashamed?

Railjack, orb vallis, wolf, remember when I said that list was much longer. plenty on the list is from after 2015. Yeah I consider quits worse than failures. Quitting is the ultimate fail in my book. Especially if you are using them to exploit the game(see red text above) in a manner not intended. I managed to get my 30 something the old fashioned way game bugs like playing frame fighter and it giving you a quit just for leaving. I solo farmed to rebuild my broken war running every mission in it's entirety just to avoid people exploiting the abort function. I feel like doing, or recommending others use abort to bypass intended game mechanics is atrocious. It's not really smart game play it's using unintended features to play the game less for greater reward than normally obtainable, so I view that as a clear cut exploit. I am glad to see DE patching those things out.

I miss void towers. I remember doing a T4 void tower with 4 Embers, and staying till all revives were gone for fun. I wonder if I could find that footage somewhere it was streamed on twitch. 

[ES-Flinter]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb OmegaVoid:

Any Medallions picked up by players already on the map will not be available to a player spawning in afterwards. So if the player wants to collect all the Medallions it's not sensible to play Syndicate missions in public matchmaking.

If you spawn into a Syndicate mission and there's a player or two already running around the map, they may well have picked up a bunch of Medallions without even realising that they were denying you those drops.

Which isn't good either, but it's a separate issue. My point is, doing Syndicate missions solo is a sensible choice.

No.

• "When joining a mission in progress, any medallions that have been picked up will be marked for newly joined players." (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Syndicate_Medallions)

And last time i had the luck to join a defense mission on Uranus where already every medallion was picked up. And I could collect them all.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb OmegaVoid:

Lose all four Conduits in a round of Disruption = fail. Doesn't matter how many revives the player has left.

Successfully defend at least one Conduit, then you get another round... but the levels are increased, meaning players who struggled in round 1 are going to have an even harder time in round 2.

I have forgotten that this mission has increased enemy level even if you fail to defend...

vor 6 Stunden schrieb OmegaVoid:

Which is why it's sensible to complete the mission before taking time to scour the map for Medallions.

Yes and no. Yes if there is someone who probably never played the mission and also don't know what his limits are. (Limits-> highest enemy level he can deal with.)

And no if the player is prepared and know his limits. 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb OmegaVoid:

An unexpected and unwarned-of fail timer therefore can punish the player for making sensible decisions. That's why I agree with the OP.

It's not like I completely disagree with the OP. The fail timer isn't needed that's right. But it eassy avoidable and if I remember correctly the fail timer has a 15min countdown. That should be enough for everyone who learned the basics movements. (sliding+ rolling,  bulletjump, and "normal" running/ jumping)

Actually for me is it now more important why the OP needed so long after the mission to to collect the medals.

Edited June 10, 2020 by ES-Flinter

[Sevek7]

8 hours ago, Nichivo said:

Railjack, orb vallis, wolf, remember when I said that list was much longer. plenty on the list is from after 2015. Yeah I consider quits worse than failures. Quitting is the ultimate fail in my book. Especially if you are using them to exploit the game(see red text above) in a manner not intended. I managed to get my 30 something the old fashioned way game bugs like playing frame fighter and it giving you a quit just for leaving. I solo farmed to rebuild my broken war running every mission in it's entirety just to avoid people exploiting the abort function. I feel like doing, or recommending others use abort to bypass intended game mechanics is atrocious. It's not really smart game play it's using unintended features to play the game less for greater reward than normally obtainable, so I view that as a clear cut exploit. I am glad to see DE patching those things out.

But... Railjack, Orb Vallis, and Wolf were also not difficult...

You're right that a game shouldn't reward aborting missions, and I'm also glad that they try to remove that as a tactic. I checked the numbers after you pointed them out, and you're right that my quit numbers are weirdly high. Even the few aborts I did to change mission type / perform challenges and things like that should not have brought it that high (My guess is these aborts number somewhere between 10 and 20 for me). Personally, I don't really consider it an exploit to abort a mission if you didn't get the mission type you wanted. It's like saying it's an exploit to abort a mission if you realize you accidentally brought the wrong loadout. 

I did play a lot of frame fighter when it came out, so I guess that could be one reason why it's so high. Another possibility is that conclave also gives you a quit for leaving, and since there's no "end" to conclave missions you then automatically get a quit no matter how you leave. 

In any case, it's certainly true that I was not good at Warframe when I started playing, I played entirely solo and failed a lot of missions. And as you pointed out, some quits in the stats are undeserved from things like frame fighter. So using my profile stats in an attempt to invalidate my earlier point is not really a good argument. 

Syndicate mission fail timers are not the right kind of challenge for Warframe.

 

[OmegaVoid]

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

No.

• "When joining a mission in progress, any medallions that have been picked up will be marked for newly joined players." (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Syndicate_Medallions)

And last time i had the luck to join a defense mission on Uranus where already every medallion was picked up. And I could collect them all.

I stand corrected. That's changed since it was relevant to me. Good to know. 🙂

Host migrations can still cause an issue, though. In the "bugs" section of that page you linked:

• "If the host is migrated mid-mission, all collected medallions will remain but the remaining medallions will not spawn anymore."

So solo is still a safer bet.

2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Yes and no. Yes if there is someone who probably never played the mission and also don't know what his limits are. (Limits-> highest enemy level he can deal with.)

And no if the player is prepared and know his limits. 

And then there's the situation where the best gear you have is just about enough to complete the mission... if you're on top of your game... but getting snagged by an Ancient/Scorpion at the wrong moment could spell disaster. Early game is like that at times -- if you do it solo.

1 hour ago, ES-Flinter said:

the fail timer has a 15min countdown. [...] Actually for me is it now more important why the OP needed so long after the mission to to collect the medals.

When I started farming the Xiphos it took me upwards of 20 mins to find all 3 caches in Ishtar/Gradivus -- and that was with Thief's Wit, Loot Radar, and Primed Animal Instinct all stacking. Of course that came down massively as I learned the spawn points... but that took quite a few runs.

Disruption maps (like Capture maps) tend to be pretty big. For a new player who doesn't yet know the all the places to look, and doesn't necessarily have all the relevant Mods (or, y'know, Limbo for the cheez strat), 8 Medallions could take quite a while -- particularly if one or two of them are tucked away in an obscure place, and especially if the player doesn't initially realise they should be hurrying.

[Nichivo]

18 minutes ago, Sevek7 said:

But... Railjack, Orb Vallis, and Wolf were also not difficult...

You're right that a game shouldn't reward aborting missions, and I'm also glad that they try to remove that as a tactic. I checked the numbers after you pointed them out, and you're right that my quit numbers are weirdly high. Even the few aborts I did to change mission type / perform challenges and things like that should not have brought it that high (My guess is these aborts number somewhere between 10 and 20 for me). Personally, I don't really consider it an exploit to abort a mission if you didn't get the mission type you wanted. It's like saying it's an exploit to abort a mission if you realize you accidentally brought the wrong loadout. 

I did play a lot of frame fighter when it came out, so I guess that could be one reason why it's so high. Another possibility is that conclave also gives you a quit for leaving, and since there's no "end" to conclave missions you then automatically get a quit no matter how you leave. 

In any case, it's certainly true that I was not good at Warframe when I started playing, I played entirely solo and failed a lot of missions. And as you pointed out, some quits in the stats are undeserved from things like frame fighter. So using my profile stats in an attempt to invalidate my earlier point is not really a good argument. 

Syndicate mission fail timers are not the right kind of challenge for Warframe.

 

Yet they all were nerfed because of people whining. This is why there is nothing to challenge anyone in the game anymore.

Na that many quits is a clear sign of exploiting. and lets be honest to quit because you didn't get a tile you want, or a drop you want, or to farm intrinsic is an exploit with no valid excuse.

I was not attempting to invalidate anything, but I don't value your opinion now that I know you exploit, I value it even less when you claim you do not consider it an exploit. They sure didn't change it because of it being intended game play.

[Sevek7]

14 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

Yet they all were nerfed because of people whining. This is why there is nothing to challenge anyone in the game anymore.

Na that many quits is a clear sign of exploiting. and lets be honest to quit because you didn't get a tile you want, or a drop you want, or to farm intrinsic is an exploit with no valid excuse.

I was not attempting to invalidate anything, but I don't value your opinion now that I know you exploit, I value it even less when you claim you do not consider it an exploit. They sure didn't change it because of it being intended game play.

I meant they weren't challenging even before the nerf. 

Slow down for a moment. I never used the abort exploit to farm Intrinsics, and I do agree that that was an exploit. I mentioned it only as a recent example. I especially disapprove of the people who did it in public matches, that is obviously wrong. 

I've had a lot of fun with other people making challenges like "Complete X node as fast as possible." This has me doing the same node several times, trying to beat my time. There were instances where I ran into a wall / got stuck in geometry, and realized I wasn't going to beat my previous time. Then, to save time, I aborted instead of finishing the mission. The goal here is just to have fun, there is no "reward," nobody else is being affected since it's obviously done solo, the only thing it does is save me time and keep me having fun with the game. If that truly is an unacceptable exploit to you, then I think you're a bit too rigid in your thinking. This is likely the main source of my quits. 

Sorry to hear you don't value my opinion due to this horrendous and unacceptable exploiting of mine. If my opinion has no value to you, then I guess this conversation is over.

 

[ES-Flinter]

vor einer Stunde schrieb OmegaVoid:

Host migrations can still cause an issue, though. In the "bugs" section of that page you linked:

• "If the host is migrated mid-mission, all collected medallions will remain but the remaining medallions will not spawn anymore."

Host migration can destroy everthing. That one doesn't count. 😉😉😉

vor einer Stunde schrieb OmegaVoid:

And then there's the situation where the best gear you have is just about enough to complete the mission... if you're on top of your game... but getting snagged by an Ancient/Scorpion at the wrong moment could spell disaster. Early game is like that at times -- if you do it solo.

Sure but if someones gear is just hardly enough he will go public to go save, or he  try it solo while also knowing to fail the mission.

It's not like that the mission can just be played once. Failing and retrying is also a part of learning and becoming better/ faster. It was the same by you and me.😁😁😁

vor einer Stunde schrieb OmegaVoid:

When I started farming the Xiphos it took me upwards of 20 mins to find all 3 caches in Ishtar/Gradivus -- and that was with Thief's Wit, Loot Radar, and Primed Animal Instinct all stacking. Of course that came down massively as I learned the spawn points... but that took quite a few runs.

Disruption maps (like Capture maps) tend to be pretty big. For a new player who doesn't yet know the all the places to look, and doesn't necessarily have all the relevant Mods (or, y'know, Limbo for the cheez strat), 8 Medallions could take quite a while -- particularly if one or two of them are tucked away in an obscure place, and especially if the player doesn't initially realise they should be hurrying.

I never really needed so long to get all the Medallions in a mission so I can only trust your words here.

[OmegaVoid]

40 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

I never really needed so long to get all the Medallions in a mission so I can only trust your words here.

Oh, I could take upwards of 25 mins just to complete a Spy mission! The Vaults would be done in a trice of course (one way or another 😉) -- what takes the time is detouring to have a fight with every single enemy on the map, and ransacking every last Locker and Storage Container. Speed-running really, really isn't how I roll. 😆

44 minutes ago, ES-Flinter said:

It's not like that the mission can just be played once. Failing and retrying is also a part of learning and becoming better/ faster. It was the same by you and me.😁😁😁

It's true. But after a few occasions where I took time to ransack the whole darn map and then failed the mission, the rule became clear -- if there's the slightest doubt of success, it must be: mission first, looting afterwards.

I think it's only once I've had that "Mission Failure Imminent" come up. Can't remember where I was or what I was doing, just that I was a looooooong way from Extraction, and had to really peg it to get there. Didn't lose anything, but it was pretty annoying to have my exploration cut short.