IPS (Impact, Puncture, Slash) Status mods rework

[5p33dy_01]

Hi,

Not too long ago I suggested a single melee mod change, in an effort to help with impact being so useless, some of the community didn’t like that idea and someone said they would rather see the IPS be addressed, than see some Band-Aid solution.

So here it is, my suggestion to address IPS

All weapons already have at least 2 respective stat increasing mods for IPS, but they are almost never used over elemental ones, due to them being almost useless (Primed Heavy Trauma 😄 😄 :D).

The status they current provide is ok for a base status that you don’t even need to mod for to get, which is why I will suggest making a way to improve them, IF you mod for them.

My suggestion is,

1. first remove all stacking from base IPS statuses, including slash (make bleed status cause the enemy to take 10% extra damage),
2. then make all IPS mods have +1 to the respective new status (like syndicate mods) and apply the new statuses to weapons that don’t have base IPS statuses (since they would be taking mod space).
3. once a mod for the respective IPS has been placed on a weapon, it will convert the base IPS, into a different name and adding the damage increase like elemental mods.

No 1 mod should be more powerful than 2 combined mods and no base status should be more powerful than modded ones.

Once modded, these effects will convert the respective IPS to something different and give it different bonuses, but still retaining the “Effectiveness Type”, e.g. impact will still deal 50% more damage to shields, 25% less damage to health and be neutral to armour.

Notes:

All stack counters should be rolling counters, e.g. you have 10 stacks and your next hit has 2 instances, 1 hit will apply the 10 stack bonus, while the other will apply 1 stack when it rolls over/resets.

1 mod = 5 stacks (resets at 5 stacks)
2 mods = 10 stacks (retains the 5 stack bonus, but does not reset at 5 stacks, it resets at 10)
each stack has individual duration.

Impact = Shred status reduces armour/shield/health (4sec duration)

• 1 mod, each proc applies 1% armour/shield/health Shred status, at 5 stacks your next hit doe's 50% more damage to armour/shield/health and resets counter.
• 2 mods, each proc applies 2% armour/shield/health Shred status, 10 stacks next hit doe’s 100% more damage to armour/shield/health and resets counter.

Puncture = Pierce status chance to bypass armour and shields (4sec duration)

• 1 mod, each proc applies 1% Pierce chance to deal damage that bypasses armour and shields, at 5 stacks 25% chance for your next hit and resets counter.
• 2 mods, each proc applies 2% Pierce chance to deal damage that bypasses armour and shields, at 10 stacks 50% chance for your next hit and resets counter.

Slash = Hack status deals more damage (4sec duration) (does not bypass armour or shields)

• 1 mod, each proc applies 2.5% Hack, which deals 2.5% more damage for every consecutive hit.
• 2 mods, each proc applies 5% Hack, which deals 5% more damage for every consecutive hit.

The reason for this, is to make it a contender for the other 2, and the reason it seems low is because it has infinite stacks (only based on duration and your attack speed)

hunter munitions will apply Hack as the 1 mod effect, 2 if you equip a second slash mod.

IPS stat mods can look something like this

basically, the idea behind this is, if you use mod space for a stat, you should be compensated for it and if you use 2, then you should be double compensated.

The reason for resetting counters, is so that your damage will always be fluctuating, none of this constant +325% damage, which is just OP.

i will make suggestions on elements depending on how this goes.

 

so, what does everyone think of this idea?, some constructive feedback would be nice.

Edited June 27, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

The damage system we have now should be further simplified. We don't need complicated mods.

The simplest solution would simply be to buff the IPS mods with secondary stats. (+Base Damage, +Fire Rate, +Punch-through) We already have things like Accelerated Blast and it needs to be buffed. 

 

The Bronze IPS mods need to be reduced in drain so they'll actually be useful for new players.

[Tyreaus]

FWIW, one thing that could probably help those mods some is making their calculations like elemental mods. Right now, the +120% Impact on Collision Force is +120% of the weapon's Impact damage. This means that Collision Force is only better than a 90% elemental if a weapon has at least 75% of its IPS in Impact. If it were treated like an elemental mod*, that would be +120% on the weapon's total base damage.

*(Side-note / proof: Elemental mods calculate off base damage even if the weapon already has the given element. If I have a Fulmin (100 Impact + 400 Electricity), Crash Course (+120% Impact) takes the damage to 220 Impact (2.2x / +120% on base Impact) + 400 Electricity. Stormbringer (+90% electricity), on the other hand, takes the damage to 100 Impact + 850 Electricity (2.125x / 112.5% of base Electricity, not 1.9x / 90%). This is even though Fulmin already has innate Electricity.)

If that isn't enough, I tend to agree with @DealerOfAbsolutes above: the mods could probably use some secondary effects to be made better choices.

(I also agree with the notion that the damage system needs a touch of simplification, but I think that's separate from the mods themselves)

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

FWIW, one thing that could probably help those mods some is making their calculations like elemental mods. Right now, the +120% Impact on Collision Force is +120% of the weapon's Impact damage. This means that Collision Force is only better than a 90% elemental if a weapon has at least 75% of its IPS in Impact. If it were treated like an elemental mod*, that would be +120% on the weapon's total base damage.

*(Side-note / proof: Elemental mods calculate off base damage even if the weapon already has the given element. If I have a Fulmin (100 Impact + 400 Electricity), Crash Course (+120% Impact) takes the damage to 220 Impact (2.2x / +120% on base Impact) + 400 Electricity. Stormbringer (+90% electricity), on the other hand, takes the damage to 100 Impact + 850 Electricity (2.125x / 112.5% of base Electricity, not 1.9x / 90%). This is even though Fulmin already has innate Electricity.)

If that isn't enough, I tend to agree with @DealerOfAbsolutes above: the mods could probably use some secondary effects to be made better choices.

(I also agree with the notion that the damage system needs a touch of simplification, but I think that's separate from the mods themselves)

The problem with IPS mods working like elementals would be the fact everyone would just throw on Slash on everything with even a bit of status chance and not even bother with Puncture or Impact, but that is just the symptom of Bleed being that good. 

The idea of IPS is that it has a higher bonus than a single element so it was the ideal 3rd element to build for if a weapon could support it (heat rework messed this up though).

Single Element: +25%

IPS: +50%

Combined Element:+75%

Everything falls apart against armor class modifiers (%boost and %armor ignore) and Bleed though (100% armor ignore).

At Sortie level, the +50% against Ferrite Puncture has makes it 3x neutral and Corrosive's +75% against Ferrite a 6x neutral, but Bleed just doesn't care about that pesky 20x ehp multiplier armor gives.

Some ideas for the Bronze IPS mods:

Sawtooth Clip: +90% Slash, +90% Status Duration

Piercing Hit: +90% Puncture, +0.9 Punch-through

Rupture: +90% Impact, +90% Base Damage

 

[DrivaMain]

Option 1 : I say make the mods work like elemental while buffing Puncture and Impact so players won’t put slash on everything.

My proposed impact and puncture rework 

1. Impact 

- Each impact stacks increases parazon finisher chance and parazon finisher minimum health threshold. At max 10 stacks the parazon finisher chance is 100% and finisher health threshold is 33% of maximum health.

- At maximum 10 stacks enemy is stunned. Unable to move or attack for 3 seconds. 

2. Puncture

- Puncture status effect creates sonar like hotspots that when hit amplifies the damage by 4x. Amplifies DoT if the bullet that proc the DoT status hits the weakspot.

We can try nerf bleed status effect to make it no longer ignore armor, but that will attract some backlash.

Option 2 : Secondary stat increase on the IPS mods.

Edited June 27, 2020 by DrivaMain

[Tyreaus]

46 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The problem with IPS mods working like elementals would be the fact everyone would just throw on Slash on everything with even a bit of status chance and not even bother with Puncture or Impact, but that is just the symptom of Bleed being that good. 

That really sounds like IPS needs a more thorough and fundamental rework in that case. For example, I wouldn't put Piercing Hit on the vast majority of my weapons, if any at all, when a regular punch-through mod will do its extra bonus part just fine and also not skew my status away from Slash. Similar goes for Impact.

[5p33dy_01]

Thank you all for your replies.

Im sorry for the long post, im just trying to reply to everyone  without double posting 🙂 

7 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The damage system we have now should be further simplified. We don't need complicated mods.

The simplest solution would simply be to buff the IPS mods with secondary stats. (+Base Damage, +Fire Rate, +Punch-through) We already have things like Accelerated Blast and it needs to be buffed. 

The Bronze IPS mods need to be reduced in drain so they'll actually be useful for new players.

I can see how my suggetion may seem to complicate things, but it doesnt really. 
Once you equip a mod for a stat, it will then make it more powerful, and if you mouse over a stat, it tells you what it does and how it affects enemies.

The problem with just adding secondary effects is how the systems work, you start getting diminishing returns, and that is pretty much the same in every game, so that everything has a balance, additives also become overpowered when used by certain frames, besides that, we already have so many mods for these secondary effects, which will make them more for meme builds, than actually be useful.

With the way IPS currently is, Accelerated Blast is only good on a handful of weapons, unless you are going for fire rate, however, with my suggestion, it will have 1% Pierce status chance to bypass armour and shields and a damage increase, which will also add the damage type to weapons that dont have Puncture (Phage), which will go very nicely with viral.

6 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

FWIW, one thing that could probably help those mods some is making their calculations like elemental mods. Right now, the +120% Impact on Collision Force is +120% of the weapon's Impact damage. This means that Collision Force is only better than a 90% elemental if a weapon has at least 75% of its IPS in Impact. If it were treated like an elemental mod*, that would be +120% on the weapon's total base damage.

*(Side-note / proof: Elemental mods calculate off base damage even if the weapon already has the given element. If I have a Fulmin (100 Impact + 400 Electricity), Crash Course (+120% Impact) takes the damage to 220 Impact (2.2x / +120% on base Impact) + 400 Electricity. Stormbringer (+90% electricity), on the other hand, takes the damage to 100 Impact + 850 Electricity (2.125x / 112.5% of base Electricity, not 1.9x / 90%). This is even though Fulmin already has innate Electricity.)

If that isn't enough, I tend to agree with @DealerOfAbsolutes above: the mods could probably use some secondary effects to be made better choices.

(I also agree with the notion that the damage system needs a touch of simplification, but I think that's separate from the mods themselves)

This is what i was intending to mean, i just didnt indicate it with so much detail.
"once a mod for the respective IPS has been placed on a weapon, it will convert the base IPS, into a different name and adding the damage increase."

it starts becoming very complicated trying to talk about secondary effects with mods, because everyone wants a mod that 'rules them all' in a way, besides that, we have so many mods that give you all the stats you want as secondary.

i hate resetting weapons over and over again, just as much as the next player, but imo, asking for so many more mods to be changed, seems like DE may put off doing anything until they feel like doing a huge update to mods.

5 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The problem with IPS mods working like elementals would be the fact everyone would just throw on Slash on everything with even a bit of status chance and not even bother with Puncture or Impact, but that is just the symptom of Bleed being that good. 

The idea of IPS is that it has a higher bonus than a single element so it was the ideal 3rd element to build for if a weapon could support it (heat rework messed this up though).

Single Element: +25%
IPS: +50%
Combined Element:+75%

Everything falls apart against armor class modifiers (%boost and %armor ignore) and Bleed though (100% armor ignore).

At Sortie level, the +50% against Ferrite Puncture has makes it 3x neutral and Corrosive's +75% against Ferrite a 6x neutral, but Bleed just doesn't care about that pesky 20x ehp multiplier armor gives.

Some ideas for the Bronze IPS mods:
Sawtooth Clip: +90% Slash, +90% Status Duration
Piercing Hit: +90% Puncture, +0.9 Punch-through
Rupture: +90% Impact, +90% Base Damage

This is probably why nobody likes my suggestion (i suggested changing Slash Bleed 😄 )

Personally, i think base IPS that you get for free, should not be more powerful than what you spend mod space on, otherwise why even bother using elemental.
Elemental should complement base stats, which is exactly what my suggestion does, but also makes the other stats useful if you throw on another mod.

Even with those ideas, with the way IPS currently is, those mods wont be used over other mods.
Who really mods for duration when the target is going to be dead in 6sec or less (base bleed 6sec)?,
Why get 90% puncture with only 0.9 punch-through, when you get 30% fire rate and 1.2 punch-through with shred?.
Why take +impact and only 90% base damage, when we have Seration, Heavy Caliber and multishot to mod for?.(people will use vigilante armaments over this Rupture any day, its the same reason augur pact is hardly used)

4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Option 1 : I say make the mods work like elemental while buffing Puncture and Impact so players won’t put slash on everything.

My proposed impact and puncture rework 
1. Impact 
- Each impact stacks increases parazon finisher chance and parazon finisher minimum health threshold. At max 10 stacks the parazon finisher chance is 100% and finisher health threshold is 33% of maximum health.
- At maximum 10 stacks enemy is stunned. Unable to move or attack for 3 seconds. 
2. Puncture
- Puncture status effect creates sonar like hotspots that when hit amplifies the damage by 4x. Amplifies DoT if the bullet that proc the DoT status hits the weakspot.
We can try nerf bleed status effect to make it no longer ignore armor, but that will attract some backlash.
Option 2 : Secondary stat increase on the IPS mods.

the problem with these is:

impact
you still need to get down to 33%, and if your damage is able to do that fast enough you wont need that increase, and if not, this will be pretty much useless anyway.
this effect is more of a boss killing effect, where it is only really effective on 1 tough enemy, not 20 or 50.
10 stack suggestion is OP for crowed control, status weapons can get 10 stacks in a matter of 1-2 shots/hits.

Puncture
4x multiplier is insane (not to mention it further overpowers melee)

your option 2: secondary stat:
these suggestions keep getting chosen, but it is not resolving the actual issue, IPS is bad.
these mods will ONLY be used for the secondary effect, which is ignoring the primary problem, and any secondary effect they put on them will have to be stronger than what other mods already provide, or it would be a total waste of time.

4 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

That really sounds like IPS needs a more thorough and fundamental rework in that case. For example, I wouldn't put Piercing Hit on the vast majority of my weapons, if any at all, when a regular punch-through mod will do its extra bonus part just fine and also not skew my status away from Slash. Similar goes for Impact.

that is why i am suggeting removing stacks from unmodded statuses, reworking bleed to only give 10% increase in damage.

then with the new modded IPS replacement statuses i have suggested, they stack and give a huge improvement that makes them a tempting choice over just slapping on viral and calling it a day.

Edited June 27, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

The issue with Bleed is that if it didn't ignore armor, it would be the worst Dot. Corrosive got nerfed with a cap and is now weaker than Viral against Bombards. Viral/Bleed remains as the best answer to armor besides Warframe abilities.

If armor was a fixed value instead of being scaled, then Bleed wouldn't be so much of a problem. 

Despite the nerf to scaling, a fundamental problem remains. As armor reaches infinity, damage approaches 0, with the exception of Bleed. Bleed ignores armor scaling and will always do the same damage while everything else gets weaker as armor ramps up.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

You lost people the second you said Slash does not bypass armor.

 

[5p33dy_01]

6 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The issue with Bleed is that if it didn't ignore armor, it would be the worst Dot. Corrosive got nerfed with a cap and is now weaker than Viral against Bombards. Viral/Bleed remains as the best answer to armor besides Warframe abilities.

If armor was a fixed value instead of being scaled, then Bleed wouldn't be so much of a problem. 

Despite the nerf to scaling, a fundamental problem remains. As armor reaches infinity, damage approaches 0, with the exception of Bleed. Bleed ignores armor scaling and will always do the same damage while everything else gets weaker as armor ramps up.

bleed is damage you get for free, all DoT is like that, you hit once and if it proc's, you sometimes dont need to hit again, or the enemy is still dying while you reload (that sort of thing).

even if armor was a fixed value, anything that bypasses it makes it pointless to mod for both, when you can just mod for 1 and be better off than modding for both.

even if they revert corrosive back to armour stripping, due to the power of viral + slash bleed now, it still makes it pointless to mod for now.

its the same reason you take toxin now (used to be gas/slash) for corpus.

why do people want to spend so much time in a single mission?, the rewards you get from wave 500 are the same you get from from like wave 20, rewards dont scale, drops dont really scale.

it seems to me that the fundamental problem with balancing the statuses is more of a problem with the players, than the strength of the statuses or what they do.

it is the same reason people will hate my suggetion to remove the power of bleed, even though in that same suggetion, i provided a way to still bypass armour and shields with 1 status (which is what slash used to be).

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You lost people the second you said Slash does not bypass armor.

 

unfortunately this right here is the problem with people.

everyone wants OP builds that pretty much trivialize the entire game.
its like having cheats that the game just gives you, instead of having to hack it, only thing missing is "God Mode", but wait, we have invis, so thats not needed.

with viral and slash how they are, it wont matter if the enemy is level 50 or 5000, you will still kill them with little to no effort, due to the power of those statuses.

i can delete level 160 heavy gunners with 3 mods, because of slash and dont even need viral.
that is pure and simple, OVERPOWERED!

Yet, anything someone says that regards nerffing that power, is rejected by the community.
Only to then have the community complain that they want harder content.

Edited June 27, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

21 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

bleed is damage you get for free, all DoT is like that, you hit once and if it proc's, you sometimes dont need to hit again, or the enemy is still dying while you reload (that sort of thing).

even if armor was a fixed value, anything that bypasses it makes it pointless to mod for both, when you can just mod for 1 and be better off than modding for both.

even if they revert corrosive back to armour stripping, due to the power of viral + slash bleed now, it still makes it pointless to mod for now.

its the same reason you take toxin now (used to be gas/slash) for corpus.

why do people want to spend so much time in a single mission?, the rewards you get from wave 500 are the same you get from from like wave 20, rewards dont scale, drops dont really scale.

it seems to me that the fundamental problem with balancing the statuses is more of a problem with the players, than the strength of the statuses or what they do.

it is the same reason people will hate my suggetion to remove the power of bleed, even though in that same suggetion, i provided a way to still bypass armour and shields with 1 status (which is what slash used to be).

unfortunately this right here is the problem with people.

everyone wants OP builds that pretty much trivialize the entire game.
its like having cheats that the game just gives you, instead of having to hack it, only thing missing is "God Mode", but wait, we have invis, so thats not needed.

with viral and slash how they are, it wont matter if the enemy is level 50 or 5000, you will still kill them with little to no effort, due to the power of those statuses.

i can delete level 160 heavy gunners with 3 mods, because of slash and dont even need viral.
that is pure and simple, OVERPOWERED!

Yet, anything someone says that regards nerffing that power, is rejected by the community.
Only to then have the community complain that they want harder content.

Damage should deal damage. 

[5p33dy_01]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Damage should deal damage. 

yes it should, but it shouldnt make enemy level redundant.

they might was well just have level 50 enemies and be done with it, if they have damage that doesnt care about enemy level.

Edited June 27, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Damage should deal damage. 

The problem with scaling armor in a nutshell. 

Armor --> Infinity, Damage (except for Bleed) -->0

That's the issue. Armor scaling makes all damage except Bleed eventually worthless including anti-armor damage types like Puncture.

If armor was fixed and only health scaled, then Puncture could actually be an alternative to Slash. 

[5p33dy_01]

1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The problem with scaling armor in a nutshell. 

Armor --> Infinity, Damage (except for Bleed) -->0

That's the issue. Armor scaling makes all damage except Bleed eventually worthless including anti-armor damage types like Puncture.

If armor was fixed and only health scaled, then Puncture could actually be an alternative to Slash. 

what point does it become 0?, like what level?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

17 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

what point does it become 0?, like what level?

It will never reach 0, but when armor grants 99% damage reduction, it feels like 0. At low levels, IPS fine. Slash only shows its mettle when armor levels get high and that doesn't take very long. It's a design problem when Bleed tics deal more damage than Puncture damage.

Damage Modifier = (1+ Armor Modifier)*(1+Health Modifier)*300/(300+Armor*(1-Armor Modifier))

Against a Level 8 Heavy Gunner with 500 ferrite armor, which is 62.5% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 37.5.

100 Impact will deal 28. 

100 Puncture will deal 82.

100 Slash will deal 42.

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

Against a Level 100 Heavy Gunner with ~6000 ferrite armor, which is 95% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 5.

100 Impact will deal 3.75.

100 Puncture will deal 13.5.

100 Slash will deal 5.

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

Armor and health scale with level, but Bleed is only stopped by health scaling.

Corrosive used to be able to peel that scaling armor right off, but it has been nerfed with a cap. At sortie level, reducing 6000 armor to 1200 is still 80% damage reduction.

Slash only seems broken because armor mechanics in this game are. Toxin ignores Shields and doesn't get the same praise that Slash gets.

Scaling armor gives ehp disparity even between units of the same faction. At low levels, Heavy Gunners are several times tankier than Butchers. At high levels, Heavy Gunners are basically gods by comparison.

Edited June 27, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[5p33dy_01]

5 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

It will never reach 0, but when armor grants 99% damage reduction, it feels like 0. At low levels, IPS fine. Slash only shows its mettle when armor levels get high.

Damage Modifier = (1+ Armor Modifier)*(1+Health Modifier)*300/(300+Armor*(1-Armor Modifier))

Against a Level 8 Heavy Gunner with 500 ferrite armor, which is 62.5% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 37.5.

100 Impact will deal 28. 

100 Puncture will deal 82.

100 Slash will deal 42.

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

Against a Level 100 Heavy Gunner with ~6000 ferrite armor, which is 95% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 5.

100 Impact will deal 3.75.

100 Puncture will deal 13.5.

100 Slash will deal 5.

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

 

ok, and from your experience, when does a corrosive build become useless?

i can still effectively kill level 160 heavy gunners with 0 slash build (bo prime) and no riven.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

12 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

ok, and from your experience, when does a corrosive build become useless?

i can still effectively kill level 160 heavy gunners with 0 slash build (bo prime) and no riven.

That's because Corrosive has a +75% against Ferrite. (1.75x damage and 75% armor ignore right from the getgo) Try it on Bombards and you'll see how badly Corrosive was gutted. (It's weaker than pure Viral before you even pair it with Slash.)

Scaling armor breaks the balance between damage types.

At 6000 ferrite armor, 100 Corrosive deals 29 damage. (~6x Neutral)

Over double that of 100 Puncture at 13.5 and this was just +50% --> +75% against Ferrite.

The problem with scaling armor is that damage types that have ways to deal with it become exponentially better than the other damage types as levels scale.

Edited June 27, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[5p33dy_01]

1 minute ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That's because Corrosive has a +75% against Ferrite. (1.75x damage and 75% armor ignore) Try it on Bombards and you'll see how badly Corrosive was gutted.

ok i did... it seems just as effective.

even Gas and Magnetic was ok, not as fast, but probably due to not having armour reduction that corrosive has.

that aside.

what is wrong with players taking a primary, secondary or melee to deal with different enemies?

it seems to me that these issues only come into play around enemy level 500+, and anyone who wants those level enemies, should have the right weapons, rather than have 1 weapon that just deletes enemies of any level.

maybe im missing something?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

25 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

ok i did... it seems just as effective.

even Gas and Magnetic was ok, not as fast, but probably due to not having armour reduction that corrosive has.

that aside.

what is wrong with players taking a primary, secondary or melee to deal with different enemies?

it seems to me that these issues only come into play around enemy level 500+, and anyone who wants those level enemies, should have the right weapons, rather than have 1 weapon that just deletes enemies of any level.

maybe im missing something?

The issue is that using the wrong damage type against armor increases your TTK by an order of magnitude. Against mobs, it isn't that big of a deal (3 Seconds vs 15 Seconds is still just Seconds) but when the Wolf of Saturn Six came down, the flaw of our Damage System was hard not to see.

Using Radiation and not using Radiation against him resulted in TTK's differing by tens of minutes. 

This damage disparity automatically makes certain damage types trash by comparison, especially damage types with negative modifiers against armor.

Damage Modifier = (1+ Armor Modifier)*(1+Health Modifier)*300/(300+Armor*(1-Armor Modifier))

Against 6000 Alloy armor with 95% Damage Reduction:

100 Neutral will deal 5.

100 Magnetic will deal 1.6.

100 Slash will deal 2.

100 Puncture will deal 8.3.

100 Viral will deal 8.75.

100 Radiation will deal 29.

Against a Sortie level bombard in this example, Radiation deals 18x more damage than Magnetic. Magnetic doesn't have Slash's Bleed tics to compensate, so everyone pans it as the worst damage type that you should never touch outside of Shield Enhancement Sorties. (Doesn't help Magnetic's case when some Corpus units use Alloy armor that Bombards do.)

Edited June 27, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[5p33dy_01]

13 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

The issue is that using the wrong damage type against armor increases your TTK by an order of magnitude. Against mobs, it isn't that big of a deal (3 Seconds vs 15 Seconds is still just Seconds) but when the Wolf of Saturn Six came down, the flaw of our Damage System was hard not to see.

Using Radiation and not using Radiation against him resulted in TTK's differing by tens of minutes. 

Yes i understand.

which is why in my suggestion, there would be effects that bypasses armour and shields.
you wont be sitting for so long hitting the same target.

but due to how overpowered some statuses are, DE has started reducing how effective they are on certain enemies, the Lich system is a good example, the slash on shields, gas.

i really tried to make it as simple as i could and short, so people wouldnt be falling asleep on the first paragraph, or see it as some book they rather not bother with.

sooner or later, Slash will be nerffed again or become useless against enemies.
people should be welcoming to ideas that make it sooner, if those ideas still give a decent result.

everyone knows that DE may nerf it into the ground like Gas, so why not support something that will actually be good and fairly balanced?

Edited June 27, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

10 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

Yes i understand.

which is why in my suggestion, there would be effects that bypasses armour and shields.
you wont be sitting for so long hitting the same target.

but due to how overpowered some statuses are, DE has started reducing how effective they are on certain enemies, the Lich system is a good example, the slash on shields, gas.

i really tried to make it as simple as i could and short, so people wouldnt be falling asleep on the first paragraph, or see it as some book they rather not bother with.

sooner or later, Slash will be nerffed again or become useless against enemies.
people should be welcoming to ideas that make it sooner, if those ideas still give a decent result.

everyone knows that DE may nerf it into the ground like Gas, so why not support something that will actually be good and fairly balanced?

They tried indirectly nerfing Slash by getting rid of the 4x proc priority of IPS which also indirectly buffed Puncture and impact because the Warframe community will throw a massive fit if they did nerf Slash directly as they tried to propose years ago.

With Corrosive nerfed, Slash will be our only defense against the devil that is armor that has plagued this game from its inception.

The only sensible choice which would bring down Slash to the level of the other damage types would be to get rid of Armor scaling altogether and only scale health.

If armor was fixed we won't have stupid scenarios where Radiation deals 18x more damage than Magnetic against 6000 Alloy armor. Alloy armor which the Corpus love to use on some of their robots.

Edited June 27, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[5p33dy_01]

23 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

They tried indirectly nerfing Slash by getting rid of the 4x proc priority of IPS which also indirectly buffed Puncture and impact because the Warframe community will throw a massive fit if they did nerf Slash directly as they tried to propose years ago.

With Corrosive nerfed, Slash will be our only defense against the devil that is armor that has plagued this game from its inception.

The only sensible choice which would bring down Slash to the level of the other damage types would be to get rid of Armor scaling altogether and only scale health.

yes, anyone should have been able to see that coming.

they have changed the way armour scaling works, so slash is not as important as it used to be years ago.
but the community still wants their OP status.

if they remove armor scaling as you have suggested, if they dont do something like add 10x or more health scaling, it will still be useless.
i can kill level 160 demolysts pretty fast and they have base HP of 2500, which is 3.5x more base HP than heavy gunners.

keep in mind that, they will effectively be doing the same thing with HP as they are with armour, soon viral and slash would be your ONLY option, due to how high their HP would be, yet almost non existing armour.

this is why they have been implementing gating, and sooner or later, people will be more annoyed by that than if they just change slash.

Edited June 28, 2020 by 5p33dy_01

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

48 minutes ago, 5p33dy_01 said:

if they remove armor scaling as you have suggested, if they dont do something like add 10x or more health scaling, it will still be useless.
i can kill level 160 demolysts pretty fast and they have base HP of 2500, which is 3.5x more base HP than heavy gunners.

keep in mind that, they will effectively be doing the same thing with HP as they are with armour, soon viral and slash would be your ONLY option, due to how high their HP would be, yet almost non existing armour.

this is why they have been implementing gating, and sooner or later, people will be more annoyed by that than if they just change slash.

That's not how the math works. There's a reason why you don't want to strip all of an Eidolon's armor with Shattering Impact Sarpa.

Against a Level 8 Heavy Gunner with 500 ferrite armor, which is 62.5% Damage Reduction.

100 Neutral will deal 37.5.

100 Impact will deal 28. 

100 Puncture will deal 82.

100 Slash will deal 42. (Half the damage of Puncture)

100 Base damage, Bleed ticks for 35 each.

If armor didn't scale and was fixed, these numbers won't change regardless of level.

Right now, because armor scales, 6000 ferrite (+5500 armor from base) means 100 Puncture will deal 13.5. 1/6 the damage it used to deal, but Bleed remains the same at 35.

If armor didn't scale, and enemies had fixed armor, Puncture would actually be better than Slash against armor at all levels.

Slash only seems OP since it ignores armor scaling, but if armor didn't scale, it would be on the same playing field as every other damage type. Fixed armor would actually be an indirect nerf to Slash as well as a buff to everything else. If armor didn't scale, and only health did, Slash would only be second to Magnetic as the worst damage against Alloy armor.

Enemies will get tankier just by scaling health. Armor is a health multiplier and just creates a huge eHP disparity between armored and unarmored units.

At low levels, all damage types are actually quite equal and do what DE intended. It's scaling armor that breaks it.

Edited June 28, 2020 by DealerOfAbsolutes

[TheNeonGod]

If slash gets nerfed again, it would ruin Titania, Ash and other slash ability warframes well Titania won't be ruined as much as the other warframes since the damage input she does still do alot of damage. It would also ruin Hunter Munitions.

Edited June 28, 2020 by TheNeonGod

[5p33dy_01]

41 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That's not how the math works. There's a reason why you don't want to strip all of an Eidolon's armor with Shattering Impact Sarpa.

The reason is because Slash and Viral status dont work on it 😛 , slash bleed is probably the very reason they made it not work.

Single bosses like Eidolons and Profit Taker are a different story, they have pre defined levels and dont scale past that, also they are status immune, so we cant really talk about them.

Although, people will still use the most effect damage type vs which ever enemy armour or health, it depends on whether they are status immune or not.

for general missions

Wont slash bleed + viral still give you more damage than puncture, since viral gives +325% extra damage to health?
the armour type wont matter, viral + bleed doesnt care what armour the enemy has.

38 minutes ago, TheNeonGod said:

If slash gets nerfed again, it would ruin Titania, Ash and other slash ability warframes well Titania won't be ruined as much as the other warframes since the damage input she does still do alot of damage. It would also ruin Hunter Munitions.

Any and every nerf will ruin something (hence the term nerf), but it is the sacrifice that needs to be made for a balance.

The bleed from slash is OP, its that simple.

Edited June 28, 2020 by 5p33dy_01