October 16Th: Community Hot Topics!

[General_Krull]

Security reasons with drop rates? Like people noticing drop rates are ridiculously low? I don't buy it.

 

Besides this is like changing ember for armor 2.0 before it was anywhere near ready, you take away our options in preparation for some (I bet disappointing) codex that's coming in the unforeseeable future. How long do you expect us to wait huh?

[MrDudeManPersonGuy]

Can't wait to see the new 'Frame! And it'd be really cool too if there'll be male/female versions of Warframes.

[UltimaHiryuu]

The idea for a Codex isn't purely for one player. It's mainly to allow players to communicate and tell each other where they drop. It's an added social feature and will allow veteran players to help newer ones.

 

There's nothing wrong with people helping each other out. :)

Edited October 17, 2013 by UltimaHiryuu

[K_Shiro]

Difficulty mostly means stats getting higher so if you go to "easy" maps with a "weak" setup, it feels the same as the high difficulty maps. So sadly I too think that those new mods quickly lose their meaning since we only need to play on "harder" maps to get them but if we don't play on those "harder" maps, we don't really need them at all :D

 

Enemies getting more intelligent with level (I know AI is the hardest, always, but as of now, a Vauban and an Ignis can easily eradicate any amounts of infested because they just run into bastille...) and using more diverse abilities instead of the once-a-month grenade attack would mean higher difficulty maps actually feel different.

 

Already wrote some ideas about making the game a bit more diverse without "huge" changes to AI for example:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/79196-concepts-of-mine-consumables-merchant-gambler-and-void-cause-i-like-that/#entry863293 - chapter "in-game events".

 

That and make it possible to pay for clan emblem upload from DojoVault platinum supplies... any plans on expanding the use of DojoVault overall?

____________  _ _  ____________

 

[Phoenix86]

Really curious to see the next livestream at this point.

[Ziggarius]

Mutagen Update

 

Sheldon: “We’ve read your feedback on how to balance Mutagen. From what we’re seeing, there hasn’t been a flux in Mutagen crafting since it was put in the Derelicts. This could be due to The Orokin Vaults being introduced, but we will be keeping an eye on it and will consider tweaking it when necessary.”

 

The problem with mutagen isn't the rate.  It's that we have to pay resources to.. farm.. resources.. 

 

No other resource requires you to farm resources, pay resources, to farm the resources you want and need.

[Othergrunty]

Drop Tables

 

We completely understand and agree with the need to know more about drops, however there are legitimate security reasons why we can’t release the drop tables in their raw form.  As discussed on past Livestreams, we have been planning a Codex style system in-game for drops. The shovel is in the ground to get an in-game Codex that stores and presents information on where players have obtained pickups.  This task is no small feat, and currently we can’t estimate an exact completion date but we will show you the progress along the way in the Developer’s Workshop posts and Livestreams.

 

Well the drop rate codex might be a good idea, but you can't stop people from checking it's truth. All you do is make datamining a bit more complicated but you can't prevent it forever. Likewise now some people might do it simply because you made it harder (human nature after all). So i hope when the codex is in the game you try your best to make sure the numbers actualy reflect the reality. Because if someone then finds out it's wrong, the uproar will be bigger than it was now.

 

 

Content vs Gameplay

 

A recent conservation with Steve reflected on the situation a lot of our long term players find themselves in “our players are becoming bored. We can give you all the mods in the world to find, but without a reason to have these mods they become lackluster.”

 

This isn’t a surprise to many players on the forums because it has been a popular topic for awhile. There is a need for a more detailed story line and a purpose for 500+ hours of game play. Some great story line threads have been posted and it’s amazing to see what players come up with based on their Warframe experiences.

 

"We can give you all the mods in the world to find, but without a reason to have these mods they become lackluster.” - YOU DON'T SAY!

 

But yeah you throw mods like Warm Coat and Parry at us and expect us to seriously waste any mod slot for this, instead of one of the core mods? Yeah not gonna happen. All you do is clutter up the drops with stuff that is not even worth to use in fusion.

 

As for addition to gameplay Scott is on a good way re-inventing some missions, sadly it seems he has eyes on one of those who don't need overly complicated gameplay addition.

A good suggestion is to give us more stealth gameplay chance. Even if it could just be a stealth mode (similar to nightmare mode) version of missions, where the enemies are harder when alert is on (which can be de-activated) and silent weapons and stealth kills do triple damage. Encouraging players to work as an assassin team rather than a bunch of Rambos with super powers.

 

The return to Gender Swap.

 

With the talk of a new female Warframe joining our family, the conversation about male/female versions of Warframes is re-emerging from the community.  Scott and Steve both agree that if we ever decide to do male/female frames, the opposite gender would have a completely different skill set but with the same theme. For example, a male version of Ember would still have a Fire theme, but with 4 unique powers.

 

I'm happy you guys are against adding a straight Genderswap option. If there is one thing i really appriciate you guys being bone headed about it's this.

I actualy agree that the fixed sex of the Warframes allows to give them more personality and makes it easier to identify the class in field.

 

However the genderswap options in which each frame has a different set of skills under the same theme sounds like a good option. It also sounds like a mighty lot of work. So i suggest really putting this on the backburner in favor of the above mentiod gameplay and endgame improvements.

 

 

Last Chance Weapons

 

With the Boar, Gorgon, Ether Daggers and Machete all advertised as “Last Chance” a concern has been brought up in the Community as to what this “retirement” means. These items are not permanently gone; they could be brought back at any time, “out of retirement” so to speak.

 

Sheldon: “We’re trying to set up for more “new-user weapons” and some of the weapons (like the Boar) just don’t fit the art style. There is always a chance of them coming back.”

 

Nobody expected them to be permanently gone. Just like you didn't yanked the Snipetron from everyone's inventory when you removed it. But it still raises the question why you do it. Since there is no clear pattern. It just looks like you want to create artitical rarity with the weapon, so players are more eager to aquire them to have them as bragging rights.

Also that explanation by Sheldon makes NO damn sense! The Boar doesn't fit the art style? The BOAR doesn't fit the art style? What the hell does that mean?! It's an obvious Tenno design, it looks like a drum fed modification of the Strun which apperently still fits the art style because you not only keep it in the game you even recently gave us a custom modded version! You also just introduced the BAOR Prime! So how can the boar not fit the art style?

 

The Lex and the Burston doesn't fit the art style because they look more near future than distance future. But don't you dare remove these now.

 

And what about the Gorgon? Does it not fit the art style aswell? Does it not look Grineer enough?

 

I didn't liked any of these weapons, i have never used the Boar, the Gorgon was a huge dissapointment, the Ether Daggers have a reputation of being useless and the Machete is a single sword which still suffer from not being capable in competing with dual and heavy weapons. But simply remove them from the market and make them harder to aquire with no real reason just doesn't feel good.

 

Mutagen Update

 

Sheldon: “We’ve read your feedback on how to balance Mutagen. From what we’re seeing, there hasn’t been a flux in Mutagen crafting since it was put in the Derelicts. This could be due to The Orokin Vaults being introduced, but we will be keeping an eye on it and will consider tweaking it when necessary.”

 

That sounds like bad understanding of player logic. It's like saying Grineer are the most popular enemy for players to fight, by just looking at the number of killed Grineer. Instead of taking into account that they are the most common enemy and are the source of certain resources players need a lot (Orokin cells and Neurodes). Of course the mutagene crafting rate has not gone down. That's because your players, especialy those in clans, have the tendency to be pretty determinded about getting what they wanted. So they put up with having to go into the derelict sets to get the mutagane sample, but chances are high they are even more annoyed that than having to into regular levels and FARM these resources.

 

It's like putting the coffee machine into the far end of the office right next to an angry chained up dog. Sure the workers will go the extra mile for their coffee but they will be pretty tired of it and that could cause a negative effect on their work, just like how you just tire out players faster with the mutagen samples being locked away in the derelict set.

[Aggh]

Drop Tables

 

We completely understand and agree with the need to know more about drops, however there are legitimate security reasons why we can’t release the drop tables in their raw form.  As discussed on past Livestreams, we have been planning a Codex style system in-game for drops. The shovel is in the ground to get an in-game Codex that stores and presents information on where players have obtained pickups.  This task is no small feat, and currently we can’t estimate an exact completion date but we will show you the progress along the way in the Developer’s Workshop posts and Livestreams.

I'm not sure this will solve the problem. The real thing people used datamined tables for was void rewards and other such things. Stuff like the elusive latron prime receiver - where if you get one, you probably won't need another one ever again. The idea being that you can farm a specific key with the highest chance to get the part you want instead of wasting time in a void mission with little-no chance of getting what you want.

I mean, maybe if it's a record of where all players in your clan have found something it could be useful, but the problem with the whole codex idea is once you *have* a specific drop, you usually won't need another unless it's a resource like ferrite or mutagen or something.

I do love me some lore though so if the codex has more lore, I'll be happy. :p

Edit: Also the quote tags appear to be broken on the forums. Megan's original text in italics. :(

 

Maybe have your clan mates?  Build a library/research center in the dojo for shared codex updating?

 

Regardless, the reward tables for void runs and defense should be released  in some manner, especially in light of formagate :|

Edited October 17, 2013 by Aggh

[Aggh]

Well the drop rate codex might be a good idea, but you can't stop people from checking it's truth. All you do is make datamining a bit more complicated but you can't prevent it forever. Likewise now some people might do it simply because you made it harder (human nature after all). So i hope when the codex is in the game you try your best to make sure the numbers actualy reflect the reality. Because if someone then finds out it's wrong, the uproar will be bigger than it was now.

 

 

 

"We can give you all the mods in the world to find, but without a reason to have these mods they become lackluster.” - YOU DON'T SAY!

 

But yeah you throw mods like Warm Coat and Parry at us and expect us to seriously waste any mod slot for this, instead of one of the core mods? Yeah not gonna happen. All you do is clutter up the drops with stuff that is not even worth to use in fusion.

 

As for addition to gameplay Scott is on a good way re-inventing some missions, sadly it seems he has eyes on one of those who don't need overly complicated gameplay addition.

A good suggestion is to give us more stealth gameplay chance. Even if it could just be a stealth mode (similar to nightmare mode) version of missions, where the enemies are harder when alert is on (which can be de-activated) and silent weapons and stealth kills do triple damage. Encouraging players to work as an assassin team rather than a bunch of Rambos with super powers.

 

 

I'm happy you guys are against adding a straight Genderswap option. If there is one thing i really appriciate you guys being bone headed about it's this.

I actualy agree that the fixed sex of the Warframes allows to give them more personality and makes it easier to identify the class in field.

 

However the genderswap options in which each frame has a different set of skills under the same theme sounds like a good option. It also sounds like a mighty lot of work. So i suggest really putting this on the backburner in favor of the above mentiod gameplay and endgame improvements.

 

 

 

Nobody expected them to be permanently gone. Just like you didn't yanked the Snipetron from everyone's inventory when you removed it. But it still raises the question why you do it. Since there is no clear pattern. It just looks like you want to create artitical rarity with the weapon, so players are more eager to aquire them to have them as bragging rights.

Also that explanation by Sheldon makes NO damn sense! The Boar doesn't fit the art style? The BOAR doesn't fit the art style? What the hell does that mean?! It's an obvious Tenno design, it looks like a drum fed modification of the Strun which apperently still fits the art style because you not only keep it in the game you even recently gave us a custom modded version! You also just introduced the BAOR Prime! So how can the boar not fit the art style?

 

The Lex and the Burston doesn't fit the art style because they look more near future than distance future. But don't you dare remove these now.

 

And what about the Gorgon? Does it not fit the art style aswell? Does it not look Grineer enough?

 

I didn't liked any of these weapons, i have never used the Boar, the Gorgon was a huge dissapointment, the Ether Daggers have a reputation of being useless and the Machete is a single sword which still suffer from not being capable in competing with dual and heavy weapons. But simply remove them from the market and make them harder to aquire with no real reason just doesn't feel good.

 

 

That sounds like bad understanding of player logic. It's like saying Grineer are the most popular enemy for players to fight, by just looking at the number of killed Grineer. Instead of taking into account that they are the most common enemy and are the source of certain resources players need a lot (Orokin cells and Neurodes). Of course the mutagene crafting rate has not gone down. That's because your players, especialy those in clans, have the tendency to be pretty determinded about getting what they wanted. So they put up with having to go into the derelict sets to get the mutagane sample, but chances are high they are even more annoyed that than having to into regular levels and FARM these resources.

 

It's like putting the coffee machine into the far end of the office right next to an angry chained up dog. Sure the workers will go the extra mile for their coffee but they will be pretty tired of it and that could cause a negative effect on their work, just like how you just tire out players faster with the mutagen samples being locked away in the derelict set.

Most people clans could probably care less about mutagen samples.  Even after donating some to research I still had hundreds from grinding xini.  Derelict defense is easy to access, easy to play, yields plenty of mutagen samples per run and isn't much different from any other infested defense that people lay all the time without any complaints.

[KaraLotus]

Welcome new community moderators :)

[Daeron8246]

Would have been nice for you to wait until you finished with your Codex before shutting us out of your drop tables.  At least for a short while, so we're not flying blind right off the bat.

 

What he said...

 

Besides - 'legitimate security reasons'... yeah... that sounds vague and weak - any chance you would be able to share those reasons with us? I mean, it's easy to hide behind a vague and general term, but what does it really mean?

 

Encrypting the tables without even having a deadline for the codex is a REALLY, REALLY weak move on your part. Would it really hurt to postpone the encrypting until a solution replacing it is in place???

Edited October 17, 2013 by Daeron8246

[SilentCynic]

Drop Tables

 

We completely understand and agree with the need to know more about drops, however there are legitimate security reasons why we can’t release the drop tables in their raw form.  As discussed on past Livestreams, we have been planning a Codex style system in-game for drops. The shovel is in the ground to get an in-game Codex that stores and presents information on where players have obtained pickups.  This task is no small feat, and currently we can’t estimate an exact completion date but we will show you the progress along the way in the Developer’s Workshop posts and Livestreams.

 

Boy, it sure is Animal Farm in here.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

Whoah drop tables are such a touchy subject with people, am I the only one who enjoys exploration, experimentation and surprise? Mods are pretty much the only things we don't create though crafting, personally I like the unknown element.

I can understand people don't want to waste their time but I can also understand how DE might not want anyone and everyone sifting through their code, people seem to be looking only at the drop tables being encrypted and aren't thinking about everything else that's now protected ie the game we all play.

[SilentCynic]

Whoah drop tables are such a touchy subject with people, am I the only one who enjoys exploration, experimentation and surprise? Mods are pretty much the only things we don't create though crafting, personally I like the unknown element.

I can understand people don't want to waste their time but I can also understand how DE might not want anyone and everyone sifting through their code, people seem to be looking only at the drop tables being encrypted and aren't thinking about everything else that's now protected ie the game we all play.

 

I am entirely okay with DE encrypting their data. It's a smart idea to protect your IP, no doubts. However, keeping in mind the previous incidents with the drop rates (Which I shan't dwell on for the sake of conciseness), it's not a move that breeds goodwill between the developers and the community.

 

In short; encrypting data does not mean we shouldn't get drop rate info - they are not mutually exclusive. The problem with the system suggested (going on the information given during the livestream it was mentioned in) is that it only lists drop information for a part/mod/whatever after you've found it, which defeats the purpose in many cases.

[Psychosist]

In short; encrypting data does not mean we shouldn't get drop rate info - they are not mutually exclusive. The problem with the system suggested (going on the information given during the livestream it was mentioned in) is that it only lists drop information for a part/mod/whatever after you've found it, which defeats the purpose in many cases.

The codex isn't meant for yourself; it's meant for you to explore and put together information for the entire community. You'd record your findings and put it on the Wiki, and others would do the same. Given some time, we'd have a full database once again.

[Othergrunty]

Most people clans could probably care less about mutagen samples.  Even after donating some to research I still had hundreds from grinding xini.  Derelict defense is easy to access, easy to play, yields plenty of mutagen samples per run and isn't much different from any other infested defense that people lay all the time without any complaints.

 

Make some sense. However why didn't you cropped my quote down to that part?

 

[Aggh]

Make some sense. However why didn't you cropped my quote down to that part?

 

Lazy.  Duh?

[Trainer772]

So many unhappy people. No one bothers to look at the good things.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The codex isn't meant for yourself; it's meant for you to explore and put together information for the entire community. You'd record your findings and put it on the Wiki, and others would do the same. Given some time, we'd have a full database once again.

That's no different than what we can do now. Anyone can hop on the forums or the wiki and say "Hey, I found a master thief mod from the grineer on ceres. I think it was a lancer who dropped it, but don't quote me on that" or "Hey, I got a dakra prime blade in a T1 ext". Thing is, compiling this information is a lot more tedious for the community, and it doesn't give us drop chances. So if the player who got the dakra prime blade in T1 lucked out with that 0.5% chance, lots of people would head to T1 ext hoping for a DPB and end up disappointed because the drop chance is so low.

Basically, what DE needs to do is tell us the best places to find a given item. We don't need numbers, we just need "You want Orthos Prime Blade? Head to T3 mobile defense" and the like. That's what the community datamines for.

[Psychosist]

That's no different than what we can do now. Anyone can hop on the forums or the wiki and say "Hey, I found a master thief mod from the grineer on ceres. I think it was a lancer who dropped it, but don't quote me on that" or "Hey, I got a dakra prime blade in a T1 ext". Thing is, compiling this information is a lot more tedious for the community, and it doesn't give us drop chances. So if the player who got the dakra prime blade in T1 lucked out with that 0.5% chance, lots of people would head to T1 ext hoping for a DPB and end up disappointed because the drop chance is so low.

Basically, what DE needs to do is tell us the best places to find a given item. We don't need numbers, we just need "You want Orthos Prime Blade? Head to T3 mobile defense" and the like. That's what the community datamines for.

Depending on how the Codex is implemented, hopefully with rarity labels, that is actually better than what we have now, because other users would be able to confirm your finds with their own tables.

 

But yes, I can go without numbers if I had farming locations.

[Taranis49]

That's no different than what we can do now. Anyone can hop on the forums or the wiki and say "Hey, I found a master thief mod from the grineer on ceres. I think it was a lancer who dropped it, but don't quote me on that" or "Hey, I got a dakra prime blade in a T1 ext". Thing is, compiling this information is a lot more tedious for the community, and it doesn't give us drop chances. So if the player who got the dakra prime blade in T1 lucked out with that 0.5% chance, lots of people would head to T1 ext hoping for a DPB and end up disappointed because the drop chance is so low.

Basically, what DE needs to do is tell us the best places to find a given item. We don't need numbers, we just need "You want Orthos Prime Blade? Head to T3 mobile defense" and the like. That's what the community datamines for.

 

This.

 

There's also the small issue that the information wouldn't be particularly reliable to begin with. The problem with Wikis? Anyone can edit them and the information doesn't actually need to be correct.

 

Beyond that, there's also the issue that some mods/parts don't even necessarily drop, period. As of the last table we were able to see, atleast one void item couldn't even be completed following U10 - one of the parts was actually omitted from the table. You can't record stuff if it never drops, and DE doesn't even always disclose everything new that's been added that can drop (which incidentally makes such errors harder to identify).

 

Which leads to the final point, there's the fact that drop locations (nevermind chances) change quite frequently. Since the inception of the Void, for example, its table has been shuffled around every single update, its also had drop rate issues with every single update (most, if not of all of which were discovered by being able to look at the complete tables). Meaning that unless the codex carries over with updates, the community's back to square one every few weeks.

[Pendragon1951]

In my opinion I can see why to many people the datamined info was important if you have a limited time to play or you want to use your time more efficiently. You could pick and choose where you wanted to farm for something that you would not waste over a 100 hours only to find out the percentage of getting what you wanted was heinously low. I think also what came out of the datamining was it showed some glaring mistakes that DE made on drop tables that verified what many people were saying on the forums that was in truth broken. We can all speculate till doomsday why the info was encrypted but as we all know sooner or later someone will crack it again.

[Rivy]

The return to Gender Swap.

 

With the talk of a new female Warframe joining our family, the conversation about male/female versions of Warframes is re-emerging from the community.  Scott and Steve both agree that if we ever decide to do male/female frames, the opposite gender would have a completely different skill set but with the same theme. For example, a male version of Ember would still have a Fire theme, but with 4 unique powers.

Not only does this not address the issue at hand (players that want gender swaps), but it brings up so many more possible issues (like crowding the loot tables, introducing more power balance issues, warframe farming issues...)

 

Also, gender swaps may not be easy to implement, but they would be hardly as time consuming as making twice as many new frames from scratch.

And then there's the matter that it doesn't address what gender swaps are meant to achieve: it doesn't let us play female Rhino (for example), because what really makes frames different is the visual design alongside powers, not their "theme". She-Rhino would be a different frame even if she has a similar playstyle (ie: we wouldn't be playing Rhino... which is precisely the point of gender swaps).

So all this would basically do is give us twice as many frames, half of them being way too similar thematically to the other half, but not similar enough in other aspects to make people stop asking for gender swaps.

[MercenaryLord]

And White Knights that always wait for that 'inevitable fix" with no criticism contribute less. They want us to tell them what we dislike. So we do. The manner that we do it conveys our level of displeasure.

If we could all be content and patient how much do you think would get done and how fast do you think fixes would come out? There is a system in place even if you dismiss it as entitlement.

You say this like you expect me to expend effort on complaining and/or criticism and/or complimenting

Lokis do not expend effort

Edited October 17, 2013 by MercenaryLord

[AbsolutTalent]

Not only does this not address the issue at hand (players that want gender swaps), but it brings up so many more possible issues (like crowding the loot tables, introducing more power balance issues, warframe farming issues...)

 

Also, gender swaps may not be easy to implement, but they would be hardly as time consuming as making twice as many new frames from scratch.

And then there's the matter that it doesn't address what gender swaps are meant to achieve: it doesn't let us play female Rhino (for example), because what really makes frames different is the visual design alongside powers, not their "theme". She-Rhino would be a different frame even if she has a similar playstyle (ie: we wouldn't be playing Rhino... which is precisely the point of gender swaps).

So all this would basically do is give us twice as many frames, half of them being way too similar thematically to the other half, but not similar enough in other aspects to make people stop asking for gender swaps.

^^

 

I dont think anyone came out and said "we want twice as many frames that we have to farm, with new skills to further dilute the mod pool, but in the opposite sex as their counterparts. This will surely bring the community together!"

 

We wanted Skin changes. It can be done. Look at the alternate helmets. They are basically a model reskin that can be changed at will. Same thing with the stances. It cant be that hard to implement a whole body skin for warframes.

Should be a free choice for everyone to choose if they want a Male or Female frost. But knowing how stuff gets pushed out, it will be on the market for plat and on alert once in a great while.