Glast Gambit quest is confusing and awful.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

The Glast Gambit is the introduction to Index and rewards the Nidus BP, but it's a really bad intro to Index.

Spoiler warnings if you haven't played it yet.

Index has this weird mechanic where you can win but still lose - the end screen still says "Victory" but if you don't win by a certain score you actually lose (even when you have more points). This is already one of the worst things about Index when you're a new player.

The Glast Gambit doesn't do this. First it introduces Index, and you win a mission just by scoring higher, which is confusing.

But then you have one of the worst quest missions in the entire game: pay 160k (a huge amount for a newer player at that point) to enter 3 rounds of Index where if you get more than 10 points ahead you instantly lose.

This is a major pain point, as you regularly kill more than 10 enemies and end up carrying so many points that if you touch the enemy goal you'll instantly lose the match. You can't drop the points without dying, and if an enemy picks up those points they'll wipe the timer and win instantly. You end up where the enemy is 1 or 2 points ahead as the timer runs out, but your teammate-spectres are running in circles and you're carrying more than 10 over and will instantly lose either way. You have 3 rounds like this, where if you're unlucky enough to pick up too many points you lose 160k and start again.

After blowing over 1 million credits on this awful mission the first time I left this quest and forgot about it for 2 or 3 years. At that point I'd just reached Neptune and 1 million was more than half all the credits I had ever got in the game.

So, a couple of years later I go back, now with 25 million in the bank 5 or 6 attempts at this mission is less painful, but it's still awful. The only practical tactic is to not really score much - get one or two points quick, switch to defence and then make sure the enemy doesn't score until the timer runs out. Easy with Khora (who wasn't even out last time, but isn't available to players at that level now anyway). It still isn't obvious that (unlike Index normally) you can win by scoring more than the enemy, even by 1. Oh, and don't use melee, as you don't want to pick up the tokens dropped by enemies and that's inevitable if you melee them.

It's a broken credit sink that becomes unwinnable if you're good at killing Index enemies. That's not fun. It might be interested if it didn't cost more than 10x what you're getting from each mission at that point in the game.

I think this can be fixed with a scripting change: whenever you hit that 10 limit and Nef Anyo spots the ringer he just resets the scores and restarts that round. Still frustrating, but no more than the next quest (where Nef cheats and you always lose).

[Dhrekr]

We can agree that it is the one mission in the game where you have to think a bit and play with a minimum of strategy, instead of just barging in like the hulk and go on a mindless rampage.

But, indeed, requiring a bit of thought is an unforgivable sin in the eyes of many players.

 

Still. I helped several of my clanmates do that mission. I can say I played it several times and I don't recall ever failing. I do hope that it stays the way it is. But then again, DE changes old quests so rarely that I don't think there's much reason go expect a change.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

18 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

I can say I played it several times and I don't recall ever failing

I'm very happy for you. That wasn't my experience.

I suspect this was better balanced when it was first released - the enemies tougher and keeping up more of a struggle. Maybe your specters were better, or the enemy AI ran to score as soon as it has a token. The AI now seems to try and get a stack before running for your base, meaning it wipes out the timer if it makes it, or drops loads of tokens at your feet if it doesn't.

27 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

instead of just barging in like the hulk and go on a mindless rampage

I don't think we're playing the same game. Careful subtlety is not what Warframe is about at all, but it's also not what Index specifically is about. Normal Index: race against the clock to score not just more than the enemy but massively more than the enemy, you lose if the timer runs out.

It's not that players can't figure this out. It's that the solution is completely at odds with all the other Index missions we play and costs an egregious amount of money for an MR5-8ish player reaching this quest for the first time.

Difficulty is fine, suprise! unexpected fail state is cheap trolling.

18 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

We can agree that it is the one mission in the game where you have to think a bit and play with a minimum of strategy

Not really, no, we don't agree. Allthough it would have been fine had this been a mission with some idea of strategy - maybe if you could choose whether to pick up the index tokens or drop them. Or add a hack element to get past Nef's cheats.

I don't think accidentally coming too close to green dots in the middle of most technicolour weapon AoE effects should lose you 160k. I don't think killing an enemy with 8 tokens that would lose the game if it scored but whoops you were too close to it and now you can't score either.

Compare this with Glassmaker puzzles, where DE now let you fall off platforms and only charge you 5 per attempt based on feedback that the fail cost is too high.

20 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

I do hope that it stays the way it is.

Super helpful that, thanks mate.

Honestly, at MR28/25mill credits this mission isn't too bad, just a bit annoying. I've done it, I'm not going to play it again, this change isn't for me, and it isn't for you either.

This would be reducing that brick wall for new players...

35 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

Still. I helped several of my clanmates do that mission

Same here, it seems a missing lots of the newer players are struggling with. You've see that too.

20 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

But then again, DE changes old quests so rarely that I don't think there's much reason go expect a change.

That would be entirely the point in posting this.

 

[RenzorTheRed]

2 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

We can agree that it is the one mission in the game where you have to think a bit and play with a minimum of strategy, instead of just barging in like the hulk and go on a mindless rampage.

But, indeed, requiring a bit of thought is an unforgivable sin in the eyes of many players.

 

Still. I helped several of my clanmates do that mission. I can say I played it several times and I don't recall ever failing. I do hope that it stays the way it is. But then again, DE changes old quests so rarely that I don't think there's much reason go expect a change.

The 10 point spread thing was definitely an interesting challenge. It really shook things up. I failed twice at first holding back too much and letting the other side win, then I overshot and failed a third time by turning in too many green gems at once and overshooting. Once I finally figured out a strategy to maintain a balance, I was annoyed (challenged) that I needed to do it three times to succeed. Kinda tough. That said, it was satisfying to beat it with brains instead of just trying really hard.

Btw, Enemy Radar makes a huge difference.

As far as the quest overall goes, though, I groaned at the realization that I had to play watered-down index many times. It was tedious. I took it a bit at a time. Also, the wager of 160k to win 180k or whatever didn't make sense at all. Just like this is 'Index Lite', it would have made more sense to wager 30k or 50k or something that didn't seem egregious. I'm a Warframe millionaire, so didn't care, but the numbers were weird and off-putting.

[Twilight-Knight]

It is a pain for rushing amatuer unsatisfying people, who won't be able to advance further in themselves.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

15 hours ago, RenzorTheRed said:

I'm a Warframe millionaire, so didn't care

I am now, too, but wasn't then. I think the success failure state + very expensive mission for player at point where they unlock the quest (½way through the star chart, MR5-8ish).

13 hours ago, Twilight-Knight said:

It is a pain for rushing amatuer unsatisfying people, who won't be able to advance further in themselves.

Nope, not sure what your point is, something to do with rushing users being unable to advance and that being unsatisfying? If so I'd say regular Index is all about rushing and fails you (even if you're ahead) if you don't rush, so I think new players that rush this mission (which looks like Index on the Index maps/assets but doesn't work like Index) could be forgiven for the confusion.

[RenzorTheRed]

On 2020-07-14 at 6:22 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I am now, too, but wasn't then. I think the success failure state + very expensive mission for player at point where they unlock the quest (½way through the star chart, MR5-8ish).

 

A point about that though:

Farming Nidus is kind of an end game thing. Sure, you get the BP from the Glast Gambit, but you can't do anything with it until you can access and farm that endless infested mission on Eris. I haven't done that yet myself. By the time someone gets to that level, won't they generally not have money problems by that point?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

10 hours ago, RenzorTheRed said:

Farming Nidus is kind of an end game thing

He's definitely a PitA to farm, but I'd count 'endgame' as stuff you're doing after getting all the frames. Stuff you're doing to unlock content is just 'game'.

10 hours ago, RenzorTheRed said:

Sure, you get the BP from the Glast Gambit, but you can't do anything with it until you can access and farm that endless infested mission on Eris

This isn't unusual, you get Chroma's BP before Ceres, but can't build him without a Saryn neuroptics from Sedna's boss. You get Gara's BP on Earth from the first plains quest, and Garuda's BP on Venus from the vallis quests, but won't have the resources to build either for ages (I think both need you to have beaten War Within).

I don't think that makes a case to make any of those quests harder.

10 hours ago, RenzorTheRed said:

By the time someone gets to that level, won't they generally not have money problems by that point?

Maybe? I think I had about 4mill lifetime credits by the time I got to Mot and Harrow's quest (the last frame on the star chart at that time) and 160k per attempt was still pretty painful at that point.

The quest is presented as an introduction to Index. I've played a ton of Index and can understand how a quest that looks like Index but subverts those expectations could be fun to come back to, but as an introduction to Index subverting expectations sucks - the newbie user doesn't have them yet.

On 2020-07-13 at 10:16 PM, RenzorTheRed said:

The 10 point spread thing was definitely an interesting challenge. It really shook things up

So perhaps another fix does make sense: lock this quest until after the user has beaten the star chart, or maybe behind some later game achievement (say surviving 30 mins in a >30 level Survival) or even just winning over 5mill total on Index matches. Then the only users coming to it would be those who already know Index and that might find an Index-but-different quest fun instead of confusing.

[RenzorTheRed]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

He's definitely a PitA to farm, but I'd count 'endgame' as stuff you're doing after getting all the frames. Stuff you're doing to unlock content is just 'game'.

This isn't unusual, you get Chroma's BP before Ceres, but can't build him without a Saryn neuroptics from Sedna's boss. You get Gara's BP on Earth from the first plains quest, and Garuda's BP on Venus from the vallis quests, but won't have the resources to build either for ages (I think both need you to have beaten War Within).

I don't think that makes a case to make any of those quests harder.

Maybe? I think I had about 4mill lifetime credits by the time I got to Mot and Harrow's quest (the last frame on the star chart at that time) and 160k per attempt was still pretty painful at that point.

The quest is presented as an introduction to Index. I've played a ton of Index and can understand how a quest that looks like Index but subverts those expectations could be fun to come back to, but as an introduction to Index subverting expectations sucks - the newbie user doesn't have them yet.

So perhaps another fix does make sense: lock this quest until after the user has beaten the star chart, or maybe behind some later game achievement (say surviving 30 mins in a >30 level Survival) or even just winning over 5mill total on Index matches. Then the only users coming to it would be those who already know Index and that might find an Index-but-different quest fun instead of confusing.

Now you're just complaining pointlessly.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, RenzorTheRed said:

Now you're just complaining pointlessly

Helpful response that.

I'm not though, I did respond to the points you made directly, and conceded something. Maybe you didn't read that far.

I think the responses here maybe expose a gap in the users, and it has changed my opinion somewhat. Those that came to Glast Gambit as the introduction to Index hated it (including myself), but those who encountered it much later saw it as a refreshing subversion of Index.

Pitching it to players much later on works too.

[Artensir]

As an MR5-8ish non-millionaire who played normal index and the Glast Gambit around the same time intermittently, I can only agree with everyone who is frustrated with this quest. I wouldn't call myself good ór bad, but haven't had much, if any, trouble with most of the quests, up until now. Now, however, I want to kill myself.

SO:
The tactics:

 > You attack. Your team is left to their own devices. Your team gets smart, also scores points. You instantly lose.

 > You learn and play the field right, getting just enough points more to stay within margin, while stealing points from your teammates, like stealing candy from the babies that they are. Your enemy suddenly gets smart enough to score juuust enough points in the last seconds. You lose.

 > You learn and try to defend all the time, only scoring when you're sure it's a good idea. Staying at your goal, means everyone is there. meaning you get a guaranteed point-avalanche. So your teammates soil themselves in excitement, scoring enough points to make even 'you' doubt if you were cheating. You instantly lose.

 > You learn and take all the avalanche points, before someone can *gasp* score or something. Your health lowers to the single digits and you die. The enemy scores two bazillion points in the final moments and you lose.

 > You learn and only in the last few seconds move to defend, so the enemy can't score. Too bad, your team is there, either dying or killing, causing a point avalanche. You kill everyone, but now hold all the coins. You have 2 life. You die. They score. You lose.

 > You learn and get enough points to get slightly in front. Then you collect all the coins and throw yourself off a cliff so no one gets that point-avalanche. While you're respawning either team does something stupid. You lose.

 > You learn and go juuust outside your goal-area, so the enemy can get some, but not too many points in and then you swoop in when needed, either throwing yourself off a cliff or scoring to stay slightly in front. One or two points each time, keeping the total amount of points on the field low, so no one can ruin it this time. However playing it this close means the enemy grows enough braincells in the third round to go neck and neck with you. You tie, which obviously means you INSTANTLY LOSE. Haven't you played games before? ties aren't real! They're instruments of the bureaucracy!

 > You learn and realize that defending means you can't control the flow of points and attacking means leaving your team to screw up. There is no winning.

 > Lose all your money SEVEN TIMES, but no worries, you can play the normal index to get some quick cash and try agai- oh, what's that? There's apparently a famed everyone-left-but-me-bug, so you lose all your money again, despite winning? And after figuring out that bug, you get some glorious serverhost RNG, putting you on a losing team with seconds on the clock? TWICE? Now you lost all your money TEN TIMES for a grand total of 1'210'000 credits (which means I LIED! I 'WAS' apparently a millionaire!), and you've been playing this quest for THREE WEEKS, and you're thinking about ending it all by bullet-yeeting yourself out the nearest window into sweet oblivion?

FUN

And don't talk to me about doing the quest with people. Besides being a hermit who hates playing with others, I'm also European, meaning all Americans are sleeping and everyone else understands no one else, and Boris has just enough ping for us to enjoy the slide-show, nevermind tactically aid us in the MMO-equivalent of the Kobayashi Maru.
Please copy-paste this reply in every other thread about this. I've already spent WAY too many hours on the "quest" and on this bloody in-depth view into the mind of the mentally deranged to be bothered.

[Zeddypanda]

Oh is this quest supposed to be hard? I just put two tether coils at the base and it was impossible to lose aside from when the game forced you to lose. You could probably do something similar with Atlas' walls or any number of CC frames like the free Limbo you'd probably have at that point.

The only advice I've been giving people on the quest is to wait for a credit booster before running it. I walked in with barely enough credits to start it and walked out a millionaire.

The index being totally different struck me as weird. My assumption is that index used to be like in the quest, but then got changed without the quest changing.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

10 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

Oh is this quest supposed to be hard?

Not really, it's just confusing for players coming to it. It's actually easier if you're not good at killing Index enemies - you're generally not failing because the enemy scored, you're failing because you killed an enemy that was already carrying points and now you're carrying so many that the mission will fail if you score.

10 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

I just put two tether coils at the base and it was impossible to lose aside from when the game forced you to lose

Yeah, I use Khora but that works too.

10 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

You could probably do something similar with Atlas' walls

You sort of can, but only on one map and I think it's out of rotation as I haven't seen it in ages.

10 hours ago, Zeddypanda said:

The index being totally different struck me as weird. My assumption is that index used to be like in the quest, but then got changed without the quest changing

I suspect something like this too. In normal Index you lose if you score highest but don't have a certain amount (50, 75 or 100 I think, depending on stake), but the mission complete screen still says "Victory" anyway. That feels like a bug.

I think you can win this Glast Gambit mission by scoring 1 point and then blocking the goal and letting the time run out. Fairly easy, but also completely unlike how Index works. I failed this mission a lot of times because I was trying to get to 50 before the time ran out and without getting 10 points ahead.

17 hours ago, Artensir said:

Please copy-paste this reply in every other thread about this.

Welcome advice but I think it's much simpler...

1. Ignore Index, this quest has completely different rules.

2. Score once so you are in the lead.

3. Block your goal with abilities.

4. Kill with ranged weapons and don't pick up green tokens.

5. Let the timer to run out with nobody scoring again (though your AI teammates might fail that).

That's it.

 

 

 

[SussyBoi]

just rhino hold all the creds while guarding there score point so no one but you has creds