The Revenant Rework

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

IDK what you’re even talking about anymore.

Like it genuinely feels like you’re picking whatever contradicting point against me regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Everyone who said my rework was bad were all the people who claim Revenant is good and all they did was bash my rework instead of give constructive criticism.

I don’t think even you know what you want from an Eidolon/Sentient themed frame.

And this sounds more like a knee-jerk defense than any kind of valid response. I'm not "picking whatever contradicting points" against you, I'm giving you specific, actionable criticism that you've been taking hilariously poorly. I also gave a kit concept, so I very clearly know what I want from an Eidolon and Sentient-themed frame. The fact that you keep trying to generalize and dismiss your critics shows just how much you keep missing the point.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

And this sounds more like a knee-jerk defense than any kind of valid response. I'm not "picking whatever contradicting points" against you, I'm giving you specific, actionable criticism that you've been taking hilariously poorly. I also gave a kit concept, so I very clearly know what I want from an Eidolon and Sentient-themed frame. The fact that you keep trying to generalize and dismiss your critics shows just how much you keep missing the point.

No like I genuinely don’t understand what your arguments anymore.

You call my choice to have my proposed changes to Revenants 2 take health from unarmored/unshielded enemies so the ability is able to actually function against infest redundant because it also has a synergy with his 1 where you’re healed if the energy wave hits 1 of your Vomvalysts. That doesn’t make any sense.

You called the Supra more similar to the Eidolons gun despite the fact that I literally made the burst fire based off the Eidolons attack where it shoots along the ground. That reminds me I should double check what I said the projectiles would do. Because if I didn’t make them explosive they should be explosive.
Edit: Yes, I did originally say they were explosive.

You’re giving the very strong impression that either you don’t understand my rework, you don’t like my rework because it’s not what you would’ve done, or you’re the one that’s actually crying for attention by that disagreeing with everything I say regardless of what I’m actually saying.

 

[Teridax68]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No like I genuinely don’t understand what your arguments anymore.

You call my choice to have my proposed changes to Revenants 2 take health from unarmored/unshielded enemies so the ability is able to actually function against infest redundant because it also has a synergy with his 1 where you’re healed if the energy wave hits 1 of your Vomvalysts. That doesn’t make any sense.

Indeed it doesn't make sense, because the synergy is irrelevant, and you've brought it up here unprompted. You have healing from two different sources. There are literally redundant sources of healing in your kit.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You called the Supra more similar to the Eidolons gun despite the fact that I literally made the burst fire based off the Eidolons attack where it shoots along the ground. That reminds me I should double check what I said the projectiles would do. Because if I didn’t make them explosive they should be explosive.
Edit: Yes, I did originally say they were explosive.

And no Eidolon weapon fires in three-round bursts. When the Eidolon does fire its weapon, though, it's a continuous stream of attacks, which makes the Supra a closer match than your own weapon, despite the fact that the Supra isn't in fact a good match either. If the intent was to mimic Eidolon weapons, you designed your weapon wrong.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re giving the very strong impression that either you don’t understand my rework, you don’t like my rework because it’s not what you would’ve done, or you’re the one that’s actually crying for attention by that disagreeing with everything I say regardless of what I’m actually saying.

That's a nice little bit of projection, but my issue here is much simpler than that: I dislike your rework because it's just not good. I don't think it's good, and neither does the near-totality of people who have posted on this thread. I've tried to give you feedback, and the only thing you've done in response is argue. You've been pointed out the obvious on countless occasions, and yet still have refused to change. In fact, you've deployed monumental efforts towards resisting any attempt to alter even the smallest aspect of your design, and coming up with excuses to dismiss your many, many critics. Your arguments have been wholly unconvincing from the very beginning, and your accusations are plainly untrue when I and others have proven time and again that we've done our research on the subject, more so than you. Really, your posts at this point are coming across more at an attempt at self-deception than anything else, and judging by how things have been going, it's not working.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Indeed it doesn't make sense, because the synergy is irrelevant, and you've brought it up here unprompted. You have healing from two different sources. There are literally redundant sources of healing in your kit.

And no Eidolon weapon fires in three-round bursts. When the Eidolon does fire its weapon, though, it's a continuous stream of attacks, which makes the Supra a closer match than your own weapon, despite the fact that the Supra isn't in fact a good match either. If the intent was to mimic Eidolon weapons, you designed your weapon wrong.

That's a nice little bit of projection, but my issue here is much simpler than that: I dislike your rework because it's just not good. I don't think it's good, and neither does the near-totality of people who have posted on this thread. I've tried to give you feedback, and the only thing you've done in response is argue. You've been pointed out the obvious on countless occasions, and yet still have refused to change. In fact, you've deployed monumental efforts towards resisting any attempt to alter even the smallest aspect of your design, and coming up with excuses to dismiss your many, many critics. Your arguments have been wholly unconvincing from the very beginning, and your accusations are plainly untrue when I and others have proven time and again that we've done our research on the subject, more so than you. Really, your posts at this point are coming across more at an attempt at self-deception than anything else, and judging by how things have been going, it's not working.

TAKING HEALTH FROM UNARMORED/UNSHIELDED ENEMIES DOES NOT HEAL REVENANT! IT GIVES “HEALTH” TO HIS TANK ABILITY! NOT RVENENANT’S HEATH POOL! Because the ability normally strips armor and shields, but I didn’t want the ability to be useless against the faction that has neither, so I introduced it taking health under very specific circumstances. Only the synergy between his 2 and his Vomvalysts heal him.

Pretty sure I made it a five round burst. And if you’re really going to nitpick the number of rounds shot from the gun I think it’s becoming Nd pretty obvious that you’re just trolling at this point. Edit: Nope made it 3 rounds. Eh increasing that to 4 or 5 would be better tho.

Your suggestions come down to you wanting Eidolons attacks exactly as they are to be made into abilities with no changes or additions whatsoever, and that I should use a damage type that is more useless than cold.

As far as I’m concerned taking your advice would make my rework worse.

[Teridax68]

On 2021-02-11 at 3:34 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

TAKING HEALTH FROM UNARMORED/UNSHIELDED ENEMIES DOES NOT HEAL REVENANT! IT GIVES “HEALTH” TO HIS TANK ABILITY! NOT RVENENANT’S HEATH POOL! Because the ability normally strips armor and shields, but I didn’t want the ability to be useless against the faction that has neither, so I introduced it taking health under very specific circumstances. Only the synergy between his 2 and his Vomvalysts heal him.

And it is still a vampiric effect, given that you are transferring health around. Textually screaming at the top of your virtual lungs won't change that.

On 2021-02-11 at 3:34 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Pretty sure I made it a five round burst.

Pretty sure you didn't:

On 2020-08-03 at 11:08 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Burst: Will fire a slow 3 round burst of large explosive energy shots. The converted damage is applied to the damage and will consume 30% of the converted damage (10% for each shot). This will be even in Crit and Status.

 

On 2021-02-11 at 3:34 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And if you’re really going to nitpick the number of rounds shot from the gun I think it’s becoming Nd pretty obvious that you’re just trolling at this point. Edit: Nope made it 3 rounds. Eh increasing that to 4 or 5 would be better tho.

But I'm not "nitpicking", as that presumes I'm finagling on minute details. A "slow 3 round burst" has no commonality with a gun whose attack is known to fire a rapid burst of over a dozen shots. You got the effect completely wrong when you could've easily aligned the two, and it doesn't seem like you had any truly valid reason to make them different either. If you think pointing out that kind of glaring error counts as "nitpicking", it is no surprise your entire kit is so far off the mark.

On 2021-02-11 at 3:34 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Your suggestions come down to you wanting Eidolons attacks exactly as they are to be made into abilities with no changes or additions whatsoever, and that I should use a damage type that is more useless than cold.

Given that I suggested the following kit, which as you'll agree clearly doesn't try to be a carbon copy of an Eidolon:

On 2020-08-10 at 11:29 AM, Teridax68 said:

EDIT: Just to spitball things and offer a somewhat different perspective, here's a take on how I'd personally change Revenant:

• Passive: Revenant summons Vomvalysts from enemies he kills, whose health and Tau damage scale with the victim's level. Revenant can have up to 5 Vomvalysts at a time, and killing new enemies replaces the lowest-level one.
• 1 - Amalgamate: Revenant fuses one of his Vomvalysts with the target enemy and forces them to fight for him. The enemy uses both its attacks and the Vomvalyst's attack, and the Vomvalyst detaches from them if the enemy dies or when Danse Macabre is activated, though cannot be replaced by Revenant's passive while fused.
• 2 - Assimilate: Revenant consumes one of his Vomvalysts to heal himself, and gain a number of charges that render him immune to status and each absorb one hit, up to a charge cap.
• 3 - Reave: Revenant and his Vomvalysts become briefly untargetable and dash to the target point. Enemies hit become weakened, causing attacks against them to punch through them and deal bonus damage of the type they're weakest to.
• 4 - Danse Macabre: Revenant orders his Vomvalysts to orbit the target unit or himself, spinning around and each firing a beam that inflicts Tau damage upon each enemy hit.

See what I'm getting at?

I'd say you're lying here too. So far, not a single thing you have said in your most recent post has been truthful, not even in the case of statements you could've easily verified before commenting.

On 2021-02-11 at 3:34 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

As far as I’m concerned taking your advice would make my rework worse.

I doubt at this stage that that's even possible, precisely because you haven't taken anyone's advice so far. At the end of the day, it's your rework concept and you do what you want with it, just don't act surprised when nobody else sees any value in it after you've designed your kit seemingly with the intention of spiting anyone who's ever actually cared about Revenant.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

And it is still a vampiric effect, given that you are transferring health around. Textually screaming at the top of your virtual lungs won't change that.

Pretty sure you didn't:

 

But I'm not "nitpicking", as that presumes I'm finagling on minute details. A "slow 3 round burst" has no commonality with a gun whose attack is known to fire a rapid burst of over a dozen shots. You got the effect completely wrong when you could've easily aligned the two, and it doesn't seem like you had any truly valid reason to make them different either. If you think pointing out that kind of glaring error counts as "nitpicking", it is no surprise your entire kit is so far off the mark.

Given that I suggested the following kit, which as you'll agree clearly doesn't try to be a carbon copy of an Eidolon:

I'd say you're lying here too. So far, not a single thing you have said in your most recent post has been truthful, not even in the case of statements you could've easily verified before commenting.

I doubt at this stage that that's even possible, precisely because you haven't taken anyone's advice so far. At the end of the day, it's your rework concept and you do what you want with it, just don't act surprised when nobody else sees any value in it after you've designed your kit seemingly with the intention of spiting anyone who's ever actually cared about Revenant.

You literally said that the ability was taking enemy health to heal Revenant, and that made the vomvalyst synergy healing him redundant. So you’re wrong and you can’t even fess your to that. You’d rather default back to “ItS a VaMpIrE pOwEr” despite all my evidence against that claim and my constant explaining as to why I included in the first place. Or would you honestly rather the ability be literally unusable because you happen to be fighting one specific faction?

Do you really want to be stuck firing a 12 shot burst of bullets every time you pull the trigger? I made it 3 because it seemed like a fair number. 12 is just excessive.

You are nitpicking. Because despite the fact that my abilities take clear inspiration from Eidolons abilities and attacks they aren’t 1:1 scale replicas and that immediately makes you call the abilities not Eidolons themed in the slightest.

Also, your ideas aren’t Eidolon themed either. Vomvalysts don’t come out of non-sentient enemies. You still have mind controlling, which is not something Eidolons do. You still keep Mesmer skin, which is not a type of defense Eidolons or Sentients have. You suggested keeping Reave and just making it a punch thru applied, so now I ask you “Are Eidolons just punch thru applicators to you?”. Vomvalysts don’t shoot continuous lasers. So if you’re going to be ultra nitpicky about my ability ideas then you should be holding your ideas to those same standards. Or should I just start referring to you as ‘Hyprocrite’ from now on?

Well considering the fact that any advice is either “leave Revenant alone” or the people that I did want to hear suggestions from never replied, you can’t blame me for not taking most of the “advice” given to me. The only thing I agree with people on is that having another Exalted weapon is boring, but I didn’t want to leave Revenants 4 as a generic “press 4 to win” AOE Damage ability. Hence why I replaced Danse with it, but kept some of Danses passive effects like the scaling damage and damage adaptation. So while I’m open to suggestions on different 4s I will still stand by what I made as an attempt to make an Exalted weapon more interesting.

If DE listened to the people who liked bad frames as they are then we would never get reworks. Ember, Vauban, Wukong, and Oberon would all still be terrible, useless frames if DE saw one person saying “Don’t rework them, I like them”, and decided “Yeah, let’s not improve this frame”.

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You literally said that the ability was taking enemy health to heal Revenant, and that made the vomvalyst synergy healing him redundant. So you’re wrong and you can’t even fess your to that. You’d rather default back to “ItS a VaMpIrE pOwEr” despite all my evidence against that claim and my constant explaining as to why I included in the first place. Or would you honestly rather the ability be literally unusable because you happen to be fighting one specific faction?

You mean like what is already the case for a bunch of other abilities that do just fine? Yeah, actually, if it makes your kit less redundant. You can try to catch me on specifics if you like, but at the end of the day, your mechanic still is healing for all intents and purposes, and drain-based to boot. It is certainly not Eidolon-themed, and you of all people have no business accusing others of refusing to admit wrong when your own thread is 20 pages of denial.

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Do you really want to be stuck firing a 12 shot burst of bullets every time you pull the trigger? I made it 3 because it seemed like a fair number. 12 is just excessive.

12 is excessive... why? I absolutely do want to be stuck firing a rapid burst of 12 bullets every time, yes, if that's what mimics the feel of an Eidolon weapon. You are aware that the burst isn't slow, right? Really, you're not picking based on fairness, you just made numbers up because you felt like it, didn't care what you were basing yourself off of, and didn't bother to consider the fact that things don't work like you assume they do.

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You are nitpicking. Because despite the fact that my abilities take clear inspiration from Eidolons abilities and attacks they aren’t 1:1 scale replicas and that immediately makes you call the abilities not Eidolons themed in the slightest.

But they don't take "clear inspiration from Eidolon abilities", they're completely unrelated abilities with only the vaguest coat of Eidolon paint slapped on. Virtually everyone on this thread has pointed out the same to you, and it is not "nitpicking" to point out that your attempt at passing off this kit as even remotely related to Eidolons or Revenant is fraudulent. 

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Also, your ideas aren’t Eidolon themed either. Vomvalysts don’t come out of non-sentient enemies.

Vomvalysts do in fact reform from dashing into their opponents, so they actually do. Look who's nitpicking now.

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You still have mind controlling, which is not something Eidolons do.

You might want to actually play the Revenant quest at some point, my friend.

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You still keep Mesmer skin, which is not a type of defense Eidolons or Sentients have.

Are you trying to say Eidolons don't have an ability that recalls Vomvalysts to them to heal them? Because that's what the ability fundamentally does, and Mesmer Skin is an add-on to that. You are correct that I could arguably change that to some sort of damage adaptation effect, but that would be, once again, nitpicking, as you are arguing on the implementational details of a secondary effect to a core mechanic that is ultimately very much within the bounds of what Eidolons do.

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You suggested keeping Reave and just making it a punch thru applied, so now I ask you “Are Eidolons just punch thru applicators to you?”.

Wait, so because one of my abilities has a secondary mechanic... that is the only thing it's supposed to be about now? What? Again, it's clear that your accusations of nitpicking are pure projection, because you're clearly grasping at straws here by attacking secondary aspects of mechanics whose core is fundamentally in line with both Revenant and Eidolons+Vomvalysts.

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Vomvalysts don’t shoot continuous lasers.

... but the Gantulyst does though? Vomvalysts also do in fact shoot lasers when buffed by certain Eidolon abilities, so once again, you are nitpicking here.

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So if you’re going to be ultra nitpicky about my ability ideas then you should be holding your ideas to those same standards. Or should I just start referring to you as ‘Hyprocrite’ from now on?

It's "hypocrite", actually, but you can say whatever you like, as you've just outlined your own hypocrisy here in full. At the end of the day, I and many others on here have explained in plain English why your frame's abilities are a poor fit for Revenant or any Eidolon frame not just because of secondary effects, but because of their core gameplay, and you decided to take that as an excuse for petty revenge and do the very thing you've been accusing me of doing. Perhaps you believe that justifies your own nitpicking, so tell yourself whatever you need to stay sane I guess, just as you've been doing this entire thread.

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Well considering the fact that any advice is either “leave Revenant alone” or the people that I did want to hear suggestions from never replied, you can’t blame me for not taking most of the “advice” given to me.

Oh, I absolutely can, because your excuses are BS. Plenty of people here gave you actionable suggestions that you refused to listen to, and judging by your phrasing I'm guessing the people you wanted to hear suggestions from either don't exist or are merely a tiny number of people who visibly don't want anything to do with you. Tell me: who are the people you did want to hear suggestions from? Why don't you want to hear suggestions from anyone else? Because that's not how taking criticism works; you don't cherry-pick who to listen to based on who strokes your ego. Taking criticism means listening to the things people say that you may not like, and listening to people you may not like either.

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The only thing I agree with people on is that having another Exalted weapon is boring, but I didn’t want to leave Revenants 4 as a generic “press 4 to win” AOE Damage ability. Hence why I replaced Danse with it, but kept some of Danses passive effects like the scaling damage and damage adaptation. So while I’m open to suggestions on different 4s I will still stand by what I made as an attempt to make an Exalted weapon more interesting.

How exactly does your concept make for an interesting Exalted weapon, pray tell? What's impressive here is that you're admitting to making a filler ability out of laziness (which I remember you trying to deny in the past, unsuccessfully), not just because you couldn't be bothered to come up with an adequate replacement, but also because you didn't even want to bother trying to make the original effect work in a healthy manner. Why should anyone entrust you with a Revenant rework, then?

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If DE listened to the people who liked bad frames as they are then we would never get reworks. Ember, Vauban, Wukong, and Oberon would all still be terrible, useless frames if DE saw one person saying “Don’t rework them, I like them”, and decided “Yeah, let’s not improve this frame”.

Oh, I absolutely agree here for once, DE shouldn't just listen to the naysayers who never want their bad frame to change, which is why I also would like to see a Revenant rework. That does not, however, mean DE should just hand over the task of reworking the frame to whoever screams the loudest, irrespective of talent or knowledge. As it stands, you clearly don't understand Revenant, Eidolons, or Sentients very well, have been deliberately avoiding giving your kit any semblance of genuine interactivity, and have outright stated on multiple occasions to hate both the frame and his playerbase. You are just about the least qualified person in the world to rework Revenant.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2021-02-14 at 2:35 AM, Teridax68 said:

You mean like what is already the case for a bunch of other abilities that do just fine? Yeah, actually, if it makes your kit less redundant. You can try to catch me on specifics if you like, but at the end of the day, your mechanic still is healing for all intents and purposes, and drain-based to boot. It is certainly not Eidolon-themed, and you of all people have no business accusing others of refusing to admit wrong when your own thread is 20 pages of denial.

12 is excessive... why? I absolutely do want to be stuck firing a rapid burst of 12 bullets every time, yes, if that's what mimics the feel of an Eidolon weapon. You are aware that the burst isn't slow, right? Really, you're not picking based on fairness, you just made numbers up because you felt like it, didn't care what you were basing yourself off of, and didn't bother to consider the fact that things don't work like you assume they do.

But they don't take "clear inspiration from Eidolon abilities", they're completely unrelated abilities with only the vaguest coat of Eidolon paint slapped on. Virtually everyone on this thread has pointed out the same to you, and it is not "nitpicking" to point out that your attempt at passing off this kit as even remotely related to Eidolons or Revenant is fraudulent. 

Vomvalysts do in fact reform from dashing into their opponents, so they actually do. Look who's nitpicking now.

You might want to actually play the Revenant quest at some point, my friend.

Are you trying to say Eidolons don't have an ability that recalls Vomvalysts to them to heal them? Because that's what the ability fundamentally does, and Mesmer Skin is an add-on to that. You are correct that I could arguably change that to some sort of damage adaptation effect, but that would be, once again, nitpicking, as you are arguing on the implementational details of a secondary effect to a core mechanic that is ultimately very much within the bounds of what Eidolons do.

Wait, so because one of my abilities has a secondary mechanic... that is the only thing it's supposed to be about now? What? Again, it's clear that your accusations of nitpicking are pure projection, because you're clearly grasping at straws here by attacking secondary aspects of mechanics whose core is fundamentally in line with both Revenant and Eidolons+Vomvalysts.

... but the Gantulyst does though? Vomvalysts also do in fact shoot lasers when buffed by certain Eidolon abilities, so once again, you are nitpicking here.

It's "hypocrite", actually, but you can say whatever you like, as you've just outlined your own hypocrisy here in full. At the end of the day, I and many others on here have explained in plain English why your frame's abilities are a poor fit for Revenant or any Eidolon frame not just because of secondary effects, but because of their core gameplay, and you decided to take that as an excuse for petty revenge and do the very thing you've been accusing me of doing. Perhaps you believe that justifies your own nitpicking, so tell yourself whatever you need to stay sane I guess, just as you've been doing this entire thread.

Oh, I absolutely can, because your excuses are BS. Plenty of people here gave you actionable suggestions that you refused to listen to, and judging by your phrasing I'm guessing the people you wanted to hear suggestions from either don't exist or are merely a tiny number of people who visibly don't want anything to do with you. Tell me: who are the people you did want to hear suggestions from? Why don't you want to hear suggestions from anyone else? Because that's not how taking criticism works; you don't cherry-pick who to listen to based on who strokes your ego. Taking criticism means listening to the things people say that you may not like, and listening to people you may not like either.

How exactly does your concept make for an interesting Exalted weapon, pray tell? What's impressive here is that you're admitting to making a filler ability out of laziness (which I remember you trying to deny in the past, unsuccessfully), not just because you couldn't be bothered to come up with an adequate replacement, but also because you didn't even want to bother trying to make the original effect work in a healthy manner. Why should anyone entrust you with a Revenant rework, then?

Oh, I absolutely agree here for once, DE shouldn't just listen to the naysayers who never want their bad frame to change, which is why I also would like to see a Revenant rework. That does not, however, mean DE should just hand over the task of reworking the frame to whoever screams the loudest, irrespective of talent or knowledge. As it stands, you clearly don't understand Revenant, Eidolons, or Sentients very well, have been deliberately avoiding giving your kit any semblance of genuine interactivity, and have outright stated on multiple occasions to hate both the frame and his playerbase. You are just about the least qualified person in the world to rework Revenant.

Ok, so clearly you need a refresher on Eidolon lore.

Revenant, a Warframe, was captured by the Eidolons in an attempt for them to rebuild themselves. Revenant is comprised of infested flesh as he is a Warframe. So it is well within logic and reason than an Eidolon Warframe would be able to take infested flesh and repurpose it. Because the Eidolons tried to rebuild themselves using something that is literally made of infested flesh. So logically if my ability involves taking the flesh from infested enemies that very likely going to hurt them . So I don’t want to hear “It’s not an Eidolon power” from you anymore. 
 

Ok I know what’s going on here. You want to play as an Eidolon. I want to play as an Eidolon themed Warframe. What I want is a frame that has the powers and abilities of an Eidolon, but uses them in more elaborate and practical ways. You just want a playable Eidolon Teralyst with zero changes made to them. Actually no, judging from your rework idea you don’t want a playable Eidolon either. So IDK what you want.

 I can’t give Revenant a big arm gun with adaptive damage because that’s not “true to what Eidolons do”. But you can give Vomvalysts attacks that the Gauntlyst does. As well as continuously scrutinize me for calling out “secondary effects” of an ability not being Eidolon themed, despite the fact that you have been doing that for me 2nd ability idea this entire time. Yeah no you’re just being a hypocrite.

No, there were genuinely people that at first gave some interesting feedback. I gave my reasoning behind some of the things they took issue with, and they never returned.

Well let’s see. The 2 most generic Exalted gun weapons would be Balefire and Artemis Bow. Both just fire projectiles and cost energy (or shields), and don’t do anything outside of that. My exalted arm cannon has 3 unique firing modes and a scaling mechanic that does what Danses scaling mechanic does. That’s honestly far more interesting than a generic Damage AOE.

Also, for the record I’ve been trying to come up with a replacement that keeps the same scaling mechanic. Something along the lines of cycle ability with 3 modes. 1st is 2 cannons comprised of Eidolon sentient parts that hover next to Revenant and shoots when he attacks. 2nd he gives his squadmates the gauntlyst shield that idk if it should give 100% DR or 90%. But the scaling mechanic of the ability would determine how much health the shield would have. And IDK what to make the 3rd part of the ability.

[Teridax68]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok, so clearly you need a refresher on Eidolon lore.

Revenant, a Warframe, was captured by the Eidolons in an attempt for them to rebuild themselves. Revenant is comprised of infested flesh as he is a Warframe. So it is well within logic and reason than an Eidolon Warframe would be able to take infested flesh and repurpose it. Because the Eidolons tried to rebuild themselves using something that is literally made of infested flesh. So logically if my ability involves taking the flesh from infested enemies that very likely going to hurt them . So I don’t want to hear “It’s not an Eidolon power” from you anymore. 

I don't think I'm the one who needs a refresher on Eidolon lore, or Revenant's story. The Eidolon doesn't try to repurpose Revenant, it tries to control him, as evidenced by the following things Nakak says during the quest:

"Hold on, this isn't some trapped Warframe spirit! He's become a mask for some Eidolon!"

"Thank the Unum. You've driven out the Eidolon... but what's left I wonder?"

So not only is your desperate reach to justify vampirising Infested not really all that correct, you are also wrong about Sentients not having mind control baked into their themes.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok I know what’s going on here. You want to play as an Eidolon. I want to play as an Eidolon themed Warframe. What I want is a frame that has the powers and abilities of an Eidolon, but uses them in more elaborate and practical ways. You just want a playable Eidolon Teralyst with zero changes made to them. Actually no, judging from your rework idea you don’t want a playable Eidolon either. So IDK what you want.

I mean, clearly an Eidolon-themed warframe, given that you did the impressive job of proving yourself wrong within the same paragraph. Even you realize your accusations are baseless, yet still you attempt to continue attacking, failing to realize that this just makes your entire strategy look hollow.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

 I can’t give Revenant a big arm gun with adaptive damage because that’s not “true to what Eidolons do”. But you can give Vomvalysts attacks that the Gauntlyst does. As well as continuously scrutinize me for calling out “secondary effects” of an ability not being Eidolon themed, despite the fact that you have been doing that for me 2nd ability idea this entire time. Yeah no you’re just being a hypocrite.

Your "big gun arm" doesn't have any bit of gameplay that approaches that of Eidolons, and does not even approximate their attacks correctly. That's not a secondary effect, that's the entire purpose of the thing. Similarly, most of your kit's other abilities differ completely in core function from the things Eidolons and Sentients do, such as your second ability being this AoE armor/shield strip that only grants adaptive defenses as a secondary effect. You are the one continuing to argue hypocritically here, while misrepresenting both our kits.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No, there were genuinely people that at first gave some interesting feedback. I gave my reasoning behind some of the things they took issue with, and they never returned.

Who? Where? Have you ever asked yourself why they didn't bother returning to your thread?

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Well let’s see. The 2 most generic Exalted gun weapons would be Balefire and Artemis Bow. Both just fire projectiles and cost energy (or shields), and don’t do anything outside of that. My exalted arm cannon has 3 unique firing modes and a scaling mechanic that does what Danses scaling mechanic does. That’s honestly far more interesting than a generic Damage AOE.

3 different firing modes (none of which are unique) does not a unique weapon make, particularly as we have a ton of utterly forgettable triple-mode guns already. I can agree that the Balefire and Artemis Bow are dull, but so is your own weapon, as its mechanics do not add meaningful interaction. You have, yet again, made the mistake of thinking that the more mechanics you throw into something, the more interesting it becomes, when in reality the only thing you've managed to do is make your feature overwrought in addition to fundamentally uninteresting.

12 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, for the record I’ve been trying to come up with a replacement that keeps the same scaling mechanic. Something along the lines of cycle ability with 3 modes. 1st is 2 cannons comprised of Eidolon sentient parts that hover next to Revenant and shoots when he attacks. 2nd he gives his squadmates the gauntlyst shield that idk if it should give 100% DR or 90%. But the scaling mechanic of the ability would determine how much health the shield would have. And IDK what to make the 3rd part of the ability.

Just ditch the three firing modes and make the main mode charge up to then fire either a rapid volley of shots or a laser for a duration based on the charge. That is all you'd need to imitate the feel of an Eidolon gun.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think I'm the one who needs a refresher on Eidolon lore, or Revenant's story. The Eidolon doesn't try to repurpose Revenant, it tries to control him, as evidenced by the following things Nakak says during the quest:

"Hold on, this isn't some trapped Warframe spirit! He's become a mask for some Eidolon!"

"Thank the Unum. You've driven out the Eidolon... but what's left I wonder?"

So not only is your desperate reach to justify vampirising Infested not really all that correct, you are also wrong about Sentients not having mind control baked into their themes.

I mean, clearly an Eidolon-themed warframe, given that you did the impressive job of proving yourself wrong within the same paragraph. Even you realize your accusations are baseless, yet still you attempt to continue attacking, failing to realize that this just makes your entire strategy look hollow.

Your "big gun arm" doesn't have any bit of gameplay that approaches that of Eidolons, and does not even approximate their attacks correctly. That's not a secondary effect, that's the entire purpose of the thing. Similarly, most of your kit's other abilities differ completely in core function from the things Eidolons and Sentients do, such as your second ability being this AoE armor/shield strip that only grants adaptive defenses as a secondary effect. You are the one continuing to argue hypocritically here, while misrepresenting both our kits.

Who? Where? Have you ever asked yourself why they didn't bother returning to your thread?

3 different firing modes (none of which are unique) does not a unique weapon make, particularly as we have a ton of utterly forgettable triple-mode guns already. I can agree that the Balefire and Artemis Bow are dull, but so is your own weapon, as its mechanics do not add meaningful interaction. You have, yet again, made the mistake of thinking that the more mechanics you throw into something, the more interesting it becomes, when in reality the only thing you've managed to do is make your feature overwrought in addition to fundamentally uninteresting.

Just ditch the three firing modes and make the main mode charge up to then fire either a rapid volley of shots or a laser for a duration based on the charge. That is all you'd need to imitate the feel of an Eidolon gun.

Actually it’s not a desperate attempt. I literally just remembered that Warframes are made up of infested flesh, so technically the 1 singular part of my 2nd ability rework is still Eidolon themed. So IDK why you’re still going on about it. This part of the argument is over.

You should become a politician. Because all I’m seeing from that paragraph is a bunch of words that add up to literally nothing.

And your idea of giving a Vomvalyst an attack it doesn’t have also contradicts the idea of making a 100% accurate Eidolon frame. So you’re still being a hypocrite.

I also forgot to mention that making Revenants 4 a big exalted weapon means he can still use his other abilities, unlike Danse where you can only use Reave. So still overall it’s ultimately better than Danse Macabre. Also, the adaptive shielding is the primary part of the ability. Hence why I called it “Adaptive shielding” not “Armor vacuum”.

That’s a pretty lame idea for an Ult. Be more fitting for a third ability.

[nslay]

On 2021-02-08 at 10:32 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Oh right because Revenants modding needs are so diverse. You literally just have to throw strength and efficiency on him and nothing else.

You do want to keep some duration and range (both in the positive ideally... or close to it) because... Enthrall is actually very useful in some situations! Gimping yourself with negative range or negative duration really hurts Enthrall usage a lot! Trust me, it's not fun if have to stand immediately next to enemies to even be able to Enthrall them. And if you want to use Reave to dispatch a tough Steel Path enemy a bit faster... having to stand next to the enemy to cast Enthrall just makes using this synergy a really awful experience. And Enthrall is not useful CC if the Thrall effect wear off fast... I'd say 30 seconds is comfortable. I have a Khora build with 20 second Strangledomes and that is borderline awful in some situations (like solo Interception where CC is more useful!).

I know there are people that play Revenant with negative duration and range so that they can have the most Mesmer Skin charges and the 100% drain. But I think it's a lot more useful to have just lots of Mesmer Skin charges (which is more than enough) and 95% drain while maintaining ~100% duration and range. It keeps Revenant flexible and smooth against almost everything in the game.

[Teridax68]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Actually it’s not a desperate attempt. I literally just remembered that Warframes are made up of infested flesh, so technically the 1 singular part of my 2nd ability rework is still Eidolon themed. So IDK why you’re still going on about it. This part of the argument is over.

You should become a politician. Because all I’m seeing from that paragraph is a bunch of words that add up to literally nothing.

Given that you literally just admitted to making up an excuse on the spot for a mechanic you are retroactively trying to justify with it, this feels like a case of more projection, as you are the one arguing dishonestly. Meanwhile, I provided actual quotes from the Mask of the Revenant quest to demonstrate my point that Eidolons practice mind control, contrary to your assertions, rather than the repurposing of "infested flesh". If you believe you can claim that in-game quotes and simple arguments based off that evidence constitute "a bunch of words that add up to literally nothing", that only speaks to your capacity for intellectual honesty in this argument.

20 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And your idea of giving a Vomvalyst an attack it doesn’t have also contradicts the idea of making a 100% accurate Eidolon frame. So you’re still being a hypocrite.

I would be... if I were ever intending to make a "100% accurate Eidolon frame". I'm not, and I challenge you to quote me on this, as your obvious straw man here is obvious.

20 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I also forgot to mention that making Revenants 4 a big exalted weapon means he can still use his other abilities, unlike Danse where you can only use Reave. So still overall it’s ultimately better than Danse Macabre.

I can agree that it's preferable to not be locked into a certain ability, which is my own version of Danse Macabre, among many other changes, has Revenant's Vomvalysts do the job of orbiting him or whichever target he selects, leaving Revenant himself free to do as he pleases. However, that does not mean any replacement is better than the original, because current Danse Macabre at least has the appeal of being unique and delivering some form of unique, if shallow gameplay. Your 4, by contrast, is a filler ability by your own admission, and would fail to provide anything of the sort. I would recommend not trying to justify your rework with the angle that it's not as bad as current Revenant, because in the end you're just admitting to having made a bad rework.

20 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, the adaptive shielding is the primary part of the ability. Hence why I called it “Adaptive shielding” not “Armor vacuum”.

By that logic, I could call Frost's Snow Globe a "Snow Nuke" due to its up to 50% max health true damage and that would be its primary aspect, despite the fact it is clearly not the main thing the ability does. Similarly, you can call your ability whatever you like, it's fundamentally a radial armor strip (worth mentioning at this point that Sentient defenses also adapt in response to incoming attacks, not by assimilating stuff around them), and you're obsessing far more over the strip component than the actual defenses. If you want to prove me wrong, take away that extraneous portion of the ability and focus it entirely on the defenses, you'll still have at least three unnecessary mechanics there left over.

20 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s a pretty lame idea for an Ult. Be more fitting for a third ability.

And it's lame because... ? At the end of the day, it would still be an exalted weapon, one with more gameplay and thematic relevance than your own, so I question why you'd want to relegate it and not your own to some other ability slot, besides petty spite.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Given that you literally just admitted to making up an excuse on the spot for a mechanic you are retroactively trying to justify with it, this feels like a case of more projection, as you are the one arguing dishonestly. Meanwhile, I provided actual quotes from the Mask of the Revenant quest to demonstrate my point that Eidolons practice mind control, contrary to your assertions, rather than the repurposing of "infested flesh". If you believe you can claim that in-game quotes and simple arguments based off that evidence constitute "a bunch of words that add up to literally nothing", that only speaks to your capacity for intellectual honesty in this argument.

I would be... if I were ever intending to make a "100% accurate Eidolon frame". I'm not, and I challenge you to quote me on this, as your obvious straw man here is obvious.

I can agree that it's preferable to not be locked into a certain ability, which is my own version of Danse Macabre, among many other changes, has Revenant's Vomvalysts do the job of orbiting him or whichever target he selects, leaving Revenant himself free to do as he pleases. However, that does not mean any replacement is better than the original, because current Danse Macabre at least has the appeal of being unique and delivering some form of unique, if shallow gameplay. Your 4, by contrast, is a filler ability by your own admission, and would fail to provide anything of the sort. I would recommend not trying to justify your rework with the angle that it's not as bad as current Revenant, because in the end you're just admitting to having made a bad rework.

By that logic, I could call Frost's Snow Globe a "Snow Nuke" due to its up to 50% max health true damage and that would be its primary aspect, despite the fact it is clearly not the main thing the ability does. Similarly, you can call your ability whatever you like, it's fundamentally a radial armor strip (worth mentioning at this point that Sentient defenses also adapt in response to incoming attacks, not by assimilating stuff around them), and you're obsessing far more over the strip component than the actual defenses. If you want to prove me wrong, take away that extraneous portion of the ability and focus it entirely on the defenses, you'll still have at least three unnecessary mechanics there left over.

And it's lame because... ? At the end of the day, it would still be an exalted weapon, one with more gameplay and thematic relevance than your own, so I question why you'd want to relegate it and not your own to some other ability slot, besides petty spite.

I didn’t make it up. It’s genuinely just a fact that occurred to me.

So you don’t have to make a 100% accurate Eidolons frame, but I do?

It’s a filler ability, but it’s not a lazy filler ability.

Oh you want to keep the exalted weapon now. I was under the impression you wanted it gone and just replace it with an ability that just fires a series of projectiles.

[Teridax68]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I didn’t make it up. It’s genuinely just a fact that occurred to me.

... a long time after you thought it was a good idea to make your idea vampirize health off of Infested. You clearly made up the mechanic in ignorance of Sentient lore, and only retroactively tried to justify it by making up more stuff.

Quote

So you don’t have to make a 100% accurate Eidolons frame, but I do?

Neither of us does, you just have to at least try to make something that at least looks a little like an Eidolon and the Revenant we have now. Your rework fails at that basic goal.

Quote

It’s a filler ability, but it’s not a lazy filler ability.

It's completely uninspired and does not even make the barest effort of resembling the thing it's supposed to emulate, so I'd say it is. In general, your rework does not appear to have much thought put into it, so I don't know what you spent those months doing.

Quote

Oh you want to keep the exalted weapon now. I was under the impression you wanted it gone and just replace it with an ability that just fires a series of projectiles.

I would in fact rather have another ability entirely, and more generally I strongly disagree with much of the direction in which you'd be taking Revenant; I'm just practicing this thing you may not know of called "compromise". Despite everything, I am presently trying to work with you and meet you halfway to help you improve the concept you have, if that is at all possible. Working with one another is how people improve, gain a broader perspective beyond just their own, and build bigger, better things. Perhaps you may want to give that a try.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

14 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

... a long time after you thought it was a good idea to make your idea vampirize health off of Infested. You clearly made up the mechanic in ignorance of Sentient lore, and only retroactively tried to justify it by making up more stuff.

Neither of us does, you just have to at least try to make something that at least looks a little like an Eidolon and the Revenant we have now. Your rework fails at that basic goal.

It's completely uninspired and does not even make the barest effort of resembling the thing it's supposed to emulate, so I'd say it is. In general, your rework does not appear to have much thought put into it, so I don't know what you spent those months doing.

I would in fact rather have another ability entirely, and more generally I strongly disagree with much of the direction in which you'd be taking Revenant; I'm just practicing this thing you may not know of called "compromise". Despite everything, I am presently trying to work with you and meet you halfway to help you improve the concept you have, if that is at all possible. Working with one another is how people improve, gain a broader perspective beyond just their own, and build bigger, better things. Perhaps you may want to give that a try.

You’re the one calling the entire ability a vampire ability because I chose to not make the ability do literally nothing against an entire faction. Honestly, if you’d prefer worthless things so much you might as well start defending Revenants current design.

No no no. You can’t go on these long tangents about how my ability designs don’t perfectly sync up with what the Eidolons do, and then say that I don’t have to be 100% accurate to what the Eidolons do. All I did was take what the Eidolons do, mish mash Some of the effects together, throw some sentient damage adaptation in and called it a day. But that wasn’t good enough for you.

It’s a big gun that fires lasers and explosions. I don’t see what your problem is. You seem far more interested in continuously playing the “it’s another exalted weapon” card to just needlessly prolong this argument instead of just accepting it as a suitable filler ability until somebody suggests something more interesting.

Yeah here’s the problem with compromising for Revenant. Leaving any piece of vampire themed ability left on him completely defeats the whole purpose of reworking him to be properly Eidolon themed. So I have zero interest in taking any suggestion that leaves anything of Revenants first 3 abilities still on him.

Also, I genuinely don’t believe you’re actually trying to help the rework. From suggesting a worthless damage type, to endlessly nitpicking minor details while completely denying the inaccuracies of your own suggestions. I’m more inclined to believe you’re just here to waste my time.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re the one calling the entire ability a vampire ability because I chose to not make the ability do literally nothing against an entire faction. Honestly, if you’d prefer worthless things so much you might as well start defending Revenants current design.

If I did, I would have supported your rework unconditionally. Do note that my criticism of the vampiric nature of the effect always went beyond just the Infested bit, as the ability fundamentally operates by draining enemies.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

No no no. You can’t go on these long tangents about how my ability designs don’t perfectly sync up with what the Eidolons do, and then say that I don’t have to be 100% accurate to what the Eidolons do. All I did was take what the Eidolons do, mish mash Some of the effects together, throw some sentient damage adaptation in and called it a day. But that wasn’t good enough for you.

Ah, but I never said at any point that your abilities didn't "perfectly" sync up with what Eidolons do, I said they don't sync up with what they do at all. And no, a half-hearted mishmash of effects with the barest trappings of Sentient damage adaptation is not good enough. Hold yourself to at least some sort of standard, and stop making excuses for yourself.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s a big gun that fires lasers and explosions. I don’t see what your problem is. You seem far more interested in continuously playing the “it’s another exalted weapon” card to just needlessly prolong this argument instead of just accepting it as a suitable filler ability until somebody suggests something more interesting.

"A big gun that fires lasers and explosions" defines a myriad of guns, most of which have nothing to do with Eidolons. As stated in the above replies, I in fact specifically did not play the "it's another exalted weapon" card, and tried to work with you to make a better exalted weapon. Really, it just doesn't seem like you want to make an effort.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah here’s the problem with compromising for Revenant. Leaving any piece of vampire themed ability left on him completely defeats the whole purpose of reworking him to be properly Eidolon themed. So I have zero interest in taking any suggestion that leaves anything of Revenants first 3 abilities still on him.

Except there are still ways of preserving some aspects of Revenant's kit without making him a vampire. Reave's dash, for example, isn't inherently vampiric, and has at least some connection to the dash Vomvalysts perform when in their spectral state. Mesmer Skin is, similarly, not innately vampiric, and it seems we've at least both agreed that Revenant can still have minions through Vomvalysts rather than thralls. Once you let go of this obsession with throwing the baby with the bathwater, you'll see that there's plenty of room for healthy compromise.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also, I genuinely don’t believe you’re actually trying to help the rework. From suggesting a worthless damage type, to endlessly nitpicking minor details while completely denying the inaccuracies of your own suggestions. I’m more inclined to believe you’re just here to waste my time.

I think you're doing a perfectly good enough job of wasting your own time to not need any help. Really, given that I did give actionable suggestions and constructive criticism, the real problem at hand is likely less that I'm not trying to help you (because I am), and more that you just don't want to cooperate with anyone else in any capacity.