About some ambiguity

[T_erry]

1. Stance Forma 

There is not much stances that having some matching performance with their descriptions. The ideal function of Stance Forma is that it can match the style of the Stance to the mission, but the current Stance hardly meets this point. 

2. Energy Channel, Thunderbolt

The damage is not amplified by damage increasing Mods. So nobody use this mod. 

3. Beast Companion

They're melee units, so they're the first ones to approach and fight the enemy. They don't have enough endurance to take the lead.
If Tenno supports firepower to keep them alive, their enemies will disappear by Tenno before they attack.

[taiiat]

Stance Forma is so that you can change Stances to ones that are a different Polarity without losing any Mod Points.
in practice people rarely change their Stance at all after picking one, but don't look at me i didn't create this item.

 

if Companions don't have enough EHP to use Melee, then how do Warframes do it? since your Companion will generally have like 2.5x your own EHP.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Stance Forma has one major use: the Dark Split Sword, which has two modes based on 6 different stances, but before stance forma one of the modes would always have fewer mod points due to the two types not having any stance polarities in common. Of course, this being Warframe, when stance forma were first added they didn't work with the Dark Split Sword, but fortunately DE fixed that within a month.

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

if Companions don't have enough EHP to use Melee, then how do Warframes do it? since your Companion will generally have like 2.5x your own EHP.

I think the point might be that a melee-based companion would complement a non-melee frame, which makes the lack of survivability far more apparent. Sure, if I use Inaros my companion never dies, but at the same time, I am already killing enemies easily and with no real risk, making a companion that can tank and deal damage rather useless, and it just winds up being an immortal Vacuum. If pet durability was easier to scale outside of your frame's stats, then it might be possible to make a melee companion that could provide defense and support to a caster or ranged build.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I think the point might be that a melee-based companion would complement a non-melee frame, which makes the lack of survivability far more apparent. Sure, if I use Inaros my companion never dies, but at the same time, I am already killing enemies easily and with no real risk, making a companion that can tank and deal damage rather useless, and it just winds up being an immortal Vacuum. If pet durability was easier to scale outside of your frame's stats, then it might be possible to make a melee companion that could provide defense and support to a caster or ranged build.

in situations where there is serious risk of dying, not having any EHP Mods on yourself is just having low EHP overall. so this has to be a nonstarter. if you opt to be squishy, then your Companion will follow suit.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

in situations where there is serious risk of dying, not having any EHP Mods on yourself is just having low EHP overall. so this has to be a nonstarter. if you opt to be squishy, then your Companion will follow suit.

There are many frames (Gara, Mesa, Nyx, Nehza, etc.) that gain their eHP through means that their companions cannot use (or, with Gara, that are annoying to apply). Same with any build involving Quick Thinking. Same for frames like Frost and Volt, that put up stationary defense that a melee companion can't take advantage of.

The link mods are fine for frames that typically build eHP through mods, but the flat eHP companion mods are lacking, primarily due to the extremely low base stats of companions. Having some sort of fix for this would be nice.

[taiiat]

58 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

There are many frames (Gara, Mesa, Nyx, Nehza, etc.) that gain their eHP through means that their companions cannot use (or, with Gara, that are annoying to apply). Same with any build involving Quick Thinking. Same for frames like Frost and Volt, that put up stationary defense that a melee companion can't take advantage of.

The link mods are fine for frames that typically build eHP through mods, but the flat eHP companion mods are lacking, primarily due to the extremely low base stats of companions. Having some sort of fix for this would be nice.

the only scenario there that you could technically say no EHP Mods would be used, is going all in on QT - and that's assuming that you wouldn't get much from Armor on that Warframe.

having DR Abilities or Mods doesn't change this, because they apply to everything equally. sure, in low danger Missions it won't matter that much, but if something is actually dangerous and has you at real threat of dying when taking Damage - then you're simply much less likely to die if you actually have some Health/Shields to work with.

 

or on another hand, almost every single Warframe in the game, unmodded, leaves their Dog/Cat with more EHP when using the Link Mods than a Sentinel with their Health/Shield Mods.

[ShortCat]

13 hours ago, taiiat said:

in situations where there is serious risk of dying, not having any EHP Mods on yourself is just having low EHP overall. so this has to be a nonstarter. if you opt to be squishy, then your Companion will follow suit.

I disagree with this statement. With shieldgate a good number of Frames function better without any eHP boosting mods, but instead combine quick shield gains via Augur mods, Brief Respite & Rolling Guard. My Mag or Banshee are more survivable this way than they ever can be by following the eHP route. As a result, I by default am at disadvanate.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

or on another hand, almost every single Warframe in the game, unmodded, leaves their Dog/Cat with more EHP when using the Link Mods than a Sentinel with their Health/Shield Mods.

True, but said sentinels do not throw themselves into groups of enemies, and many of them can take indirect benefit from warframe defensive abilities (Frost and Volt again, Nyx with Assimilate, Hildryn, Zephyr, etc.). They don't need a lot of eHP because they almost never draw agro.

All we are asking is that beasts and MOAs have high enough base stats for their eHP mods to be effective on their own. By increasing the base stats, the mods can remain as-is, this not changing sentinels, while making link mods a choice instead of being the only option for companions.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I disagree with this statement. With shieldgate a good number of Frames function better without any eHP boosting mods, but instead combine quick shield gains via Augur mods, Brief Respite & Rolling Guard. My Mag or Banshee are more survivable this way than they ever can be by following the eHP route. As a result, I by default am at disadvanate.

banking on Shield Gating does quite well, but a single Mod towards increasing your raw values would still make you safer.

3 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

while making link mods a choice instead of being the only option for companions.

i'm not really sure that's your goal so much as making them capable of surviving without investing much of anything into their EHP, and so to make investing into it largely obsolete in order to get free Mod Slots.
i'm not hearing extra Modding choices here, after all.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

On 2020-09-12 at 9:30 PM, taiiat said:

i'm not really sure that's your goal so much as making them capable of surviving without investing much of anything into their EHP, and so to make investing into it largely obsolete in order to get free Mod Slots.
i'm not hearing extra Modding choices here, after all.

The idea would be to make their base stats high enough for the 'standard' eHP mods (enhanced vitality and the like) to be better than the link mods in cases where the frame used has relatively low stats. I would say that companion base stats should be good enough that if the frame has less than 1k health or shields after mods, or less than 100 armor after mods, the standard mods are better than the link mods. That way the link mods are still better if the frame has decent base stats and uses at least one health/armor/shield mod, but for those frames that don't you can still use the standard mods to give a respectable amount of eHP to your companion.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The idea would be to make their base stats high enough for the 'standard' eHP mods (enhanced vitality and the like) to be better than the link mods in cases where the frame used has relatively low stats.

that might be okay, i suppose.