Hydroid rework idea

[(PSN)neuronus20]

Before I begin I just want to say sorry for my english in advance. On that note lets get it started.

As we all know Hydroid is not in a really good spot right now because his abilities are not that usefull, especially on higher levels.

With that being said I came up with a few ideas on how to change his current abilities without the need of replacing any of them with something else.

The main goal of this rework is to give Hydroid more options to deal with enemies while also increasing his survivability.

Passive

• The tentacle spawn on slam attack will stay the same while the behavior of the tentacle it self will change (More on that in the Tentacle Swarm description)
• Hydroid now gets 50%* chance for incoming bullets to fly trough him without dealing damage (Similar to Baruuk's 1st ability)

Tempest Barrage

• General - no longer require holding down the ability button for maximized stats
• Tap - the damage of projectiles increases by 100% with each passing second (Damage scaling is similiar to how Protea's Blaze Artillery works)
• Hold - Hydroid creates a short range water explosion in front of him, dealing 5x* more damage, stunning enemies and opening them up for finishers (Corroding Barrage augment also applies to the explosion)

Tidal Surge

• General - improved grouping, enemies land right in front of the wave after the ability ends
• Tap - can also be cancelled by rolling or performing melee attack
• Hold - instead of becoming the wave, Hydroid sends it forward from his current positon allowng him to keep enemies at the distance (wave can be sent also while using Undertow)

Undertow

• Tap - no changes
• Hold - instead of turning into a puddle, Hydroid creates a watery trap beneath his feet with a possibility to place 4 of them at the same time. Traps have 75%* of the base ability range

            -Traps are duration based, meanig that when the time runs out, they will explode sending the trapped enemies upwards

            -When the enemy walks into a trap, it will generate bubbles to notify players

            -Players can manually detonate traps by holding down the ability button while aiming at them

            -Curative Undertow augment works on traps, allowing players to create healing spots wihtout the need of being stuck in a puddle

Tentacle Swarm

• No longer require holding down the ability button for maximized stats
• Tentacles no longer swing the enemies around, instead they hold them in place by making them easier targets
• Tentacles squeezes their targets, dealing gradually increasing damage and causing them to drop health orbs every few seconds

 

Values marked with * are possible subjects to change

 

And thats about it, I truly belive these changes would make Hydroid good in majority of the game content. I highly doubt it would make him become a part of meta but at least that's the type of changes that I would consider fun and interesiting to play with.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I really like this design, although there are some things I'd change:

8 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

• Hydroid now gets 50%* chance for incoming bullets to fly trough him without dealing damage (Similar to Baruuk's 1st ability)

 

Not a fan of this passive, since it's just a copy of Xaku's passive with better evasion. Even if the dmg reduction from AoE is left out, there's no reason why this has to be almost identical to an already existing passive. My suggestion would be to transmute credits into ammo for Hydroid's equipped weapons (amount not determined by credit amount), since Hydroid is a pirate, and should be rewarded for plundering booty!

8 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

Hold - instead of becoming the wave, Hydroid sends it forward from his current positon allowng him to keep enemies at the distance (wave can be sent also while using Undertow)

 

8 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

Hold - Hydroid creates a short range water explosion in front of him, dealing 5x* more damage, stunning enemies and opening them up for finishers (Corroding Barrage augment also applies to the explosion)

 

8 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

Hold - instead of turning into a puddle, Hydroid creates a watery trap beneath his feet with a possibility to place 4 of them at the same time. Traps have 75%* of the base ability range

I think you have too many tap/hold casts for one kit, all of them for abilities that seem fine with the buffs you already suggested. Having this many alternate effects can add extra bulk to a frame where it isn't needed, which usually results in players just ignoring certain uses of the ability completely. I'd suggest keeping Undertow's tap/hold effects, and dropping the other 2, since you already succeeded in making Tempest Barrage and Tidal Surge worth using, and deployable Undertow traps is a great idea that should stay in the kit.

On the note of Undertow, you could add some extra synergy by allowing Hydroid to Tidal Surge to a distant Undertow, allowing Hydroid to submerge himself in the Undertow and move it around. Think of this in the same way that Wisp can Breach Surge to Reservoirs.

One last suggestion: Reduce the energy cost of Tidal Surge from 50 to 25. It's too expensive in its current state to be used as a mobility tool, and I don't think the changes you made have brought it to that level either (not that it should).

[(PSN)crashtester17]

I like the idea for tempest barrage but what if instead of being basically protea's turret enemies hit by this ability would be knocked down to the ground and opened up for ground finishers instead of them going flying everywhere. 

As for tidal surge, I think if it was given the same control as lavos's vial rush (his 2) then it could be a good mobility tool. You could cancel it early by jumping and you wouldn't have an awkward pause in movement at the end of the abilities travel. The idea would be you could keep your momentum going. As for the better grouping, that's something the ability should already do so I'm on board for that. 

For undertow, I like the idea to cast it on an area but I think I'd prefer it implemented differently. Firstly, I'd like the augment curative undertow to be made part of the core ability. In addition to that it would be neat if damage undertow did to enemies granted shield and over shield to hydroid. Another quality of life feature that could be added would be the ability to reload and swap weapons in undertow. You can currently reload a gun if you empty the mag and start the reload before going into undertow so it would be nice if you could do this without having to dump your mag.

Getting to the cast on an area thing, I think that making that an augment would make more sense. If it was made an augment it would specify that the ability is now duration based with no channel cost and has a significant increase to range. Basically you could have 1 big undertow with range mods and then shoot it to speed up how fast the enemies in it die. It would be like giving your guns a weird version of infinite punch through. If it was going to be made part of the ability instead of an augment then I'd be fine with a charge cast. I don't like the idea having to cast multiple undertows mainly due to energy cost and time setting them up. The Idea to detonate undertow and make it a geyser is neat. 

Tentacle swarm holding instead flinging people, love the idea. I would prefer if the enemies drop energy orbs instead of health orbs. Also, a cool synergy could be added with his undertow. If you cast tentacle swarm while in or on undertow then instead of the tentacles staying out for their duration they will reach out from undertow, grab enemies, and pull them in to drown. One other addition would be to have the tentacles reposition after cast until they grab an enemy. So if your outside undertow and cast your 4, the tentacles will spawn normally, if a tentacle grabs an enemy it will do its thing, if it doesn't then it will sink back in the floor and reappear doing this until it grabs an enemy or the timer runs out. 

As for his passive, I had an idea that I think would fit him better. Since he is the pirate warframe why not add this to his current passive, casting railjack abilities uses hydroids shields instead of his energy. It feels clunky right now having to hop out of of the pilot or gunner seat to drop an energizing dash or energy pancakes just to use the avionics. Currently Hildryn and Lavos are the only Warframes that don't have to do this. I think it would be nice if the pirate Warframe actually had an advantage over other Warframes in Railjack missions.

Overall, I just want hydroid to be more than a meme and actually have something he can be effective at without slowing down the pace of the game. If nothing else, I'd want the synergy with tentacle swarm and undertow clustering enemies, the control over tidal surge that was mentioned, and having the tentacles gain the ability to spawn energy orbs off of enemies. Sadly, there have been many rework suggestions in the past for this warframe and the probability of hydroid getting any kind of decent tune up is extremely low. Hydroid is personally my favorite warframe only because of his theme and the potential he has with his kit if it was adjusted to actually match the current pace of the game. The things I have suggested here are just my personal preferences and by no means anything I think he undeniably needs. He is viable for everything the game right now but so is anyone that can hold a weapon. There are MANY ways he could be slightly changed to be an incredible warframe without breaking the game. 

It's cool to see other people wanting this warframe to have a decent tune up rather than just completely changing all of his powers. I like the suggestions, and it sounds like there are some good ideas. Heres hoping that some of them actually get added.

Sorry for the long response.

[(PSN)neuronus20]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I really like this design, although there are some things I'd change:

Not a fan of this passive, since it's just a copy of Xaku's passive with better evasion. Even if the dmg reduction from AoE is left out, there's no reason why this has to be almost identical to an already existing passive. My suggestion would be to transmute credits into ammo for Hydroid's equipped weapons (amount not determined by credit amount), since Hydroid is a pirate, and should be rewarded for plundering booty!

 

 

I think you have too many tap/hold casts for one kit, all of them for abilities that seem fine with the buffs you already suggested. Having this many alternate effects can add extra bulk to a frame where it isn't needed, which usually results in players just ignoring certain uses of the ability completely. I'd suggest keeping Undertow's tap/hold effects, and dropping the other 2, since you already succeeded in making Tempest Barrage and Tidal Surge worth using, and deployable Undertow traps is a great idea that should stay in the kit.

On the note of Undertow, you could add some extra synergy by allowing Hydroid to Tidal Surge to a distant Undertow, allowing Hydroid to submerge himself in the Undertow and move it around. Think of this in the same way that Wisp can Breach Surge to Reservoirs.

One last suggestion: Reduce the energy cost of Tidal Surge from 50 to 25. It's too expensive in its current state to be used as a mobility tool, and I don't think the changes you made have brought it to that level either (not that it should).

When I was thinking about this rework I mainly had water aspect of his theme in mind just because him being a pirate with water abilities didn't really sit with me regardless of his look (especially with the skins). Truth be told I forgot about what Xaku's passive is so I was ok with giving something like that to Hydroid. It made sense to me since he can literally turn himself into water. Your idea for the passive is also interesting but I would improve it a little bit more. Lets make it that picking up credits gives you ammo when needed and picking up additional ammo gives you credits. Something like equilibrium but for credits and ammo.

About the tap/hold abilities, I know that all of those function may not be used at all times but the idea behind them was to give Hydroid more options. Players could use whatever they need depending on the mission, situation, their build and playstyle. They wouldn't have to use them but they could. There's a lot of things that you can do with water so i though it would be great to make him more versatile but yeah, you may have a point with it being a bit too much for one frame. With that being said I also think that from all these changes, the deployable Undertow is a must. Teleporting from one trap to another is also a great addition.

[(PSN)neuronus20]

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I like the idea for tempest barrage but what if instead of being basically protea's turret enemies hit by this ability would be knocked down to the ground and opened up for ground finishers instead of them going flying everywhere.

I played Hydroid quite a lot recently and from what I saw his Tempest Barrage already knocks down enemies instead of displacing them, so it works as it should in that matter.

Quote

As for tidal surge, I think if it was given the same control as lavos's vial rush (his 2) then it could be a good mobility tool. You could cancel it early by jumping and you wouldn't have an awkward pause in movement at the end of the abilities travel. The idea would be you could keep your momentum going. As for the better grouping, that's something the ability should already do so I'm on board for that. 

Making Tidal Surge steerable also crossed my mind but i fear it would make grouping less reliable so I think more options to cancel ability is a better solution. Also yeah, the pause after the ability ends needs to be gone.

Quote

For undertow, I like the idea to cast it on an area but I think I'd prefer it implemented differently. Firstly, I'd like the augment curative undertow to be made part of the core ability. In addition to that it would be neat if damage undertow did to enemies granted shield and over shield to hydroid. Another quality of life feature that could be added would be the ability to reload and swap weapons in undertow. You can currently reload a gun if you empty the mag and start the reload before going into undertow so it would be nice if you could do this without having to dump your mag.

I think curative undertow should stay as an augment because it only adds additional effect on top of what the ability already is. Having 2 base functions for the Undertow makes it more usable in more types of missions.

Im conflicted with the shield gain from drowned enemies. While it does inedeed sounds neat I'm not sure if it's not too much. Reloading weapons while in Undertow sounds like cool QoL addition though.

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Getting to the cast on an area thing, I think that making that an augment would make more sense. If it was made an augment it would specify that the ability is now duration based with no channel cost and has a significant increase to range. Basically you could have 1 big undertow with range mods and then shoot it to speed up how fast the enemies in it die. It would be like giving your guns a weird version of infinite punch through. If it was going to be made part of the ability instead of an augment then I'd be fine with a charge cast. I don't like the idea having to cast multiple undertows mainly due to energy cost and time setting them up. The Idea to detonate undertow and make it a geyser is neat. 

As I said before, I think it would be better for it to be a part of the base ability. When it comes to the amount of traps that you can set and energy consumption, compare it to Frost's Snow Globe. Undertow costs only 15 energy while Snow Globe costs 50. Also keep in mind that Hydroid has a bit more base energy than Frost. I don't think allowing him to place more than one trap would be and issue and it also allows him to cover more ground.

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Tentacle swarm holding instead flinging people, love the idea. I would prefer if the enemies drop energy orbs instead of health orbs. Also, a cool synergy could be added with his undertow. If you cast tentacle swarm while in or on undertow then instead of the tentacles staying out for their duration they will reach out from undertow, grab enemies, and pull them in to drown. One other addition would be to have the tentacles reposition after cast until they grab an enemy. So if your outside undertow and cast your 4, the tentacles will spawn normally, if a tentacle grabs an enemy it will do its thing, if it doesn't then it will sink back in the floor and reappear doing this until it grabs an enemy or the timer runs out.

I wa also thinking aboiut making enemies drop energy orbs but then it would just be Hildryn's 4th ability with more damage. If we'll make it random what resource will drop then it will be a better wersion of Protea's Dispensary. Besides I don't think we have many abilities in game that passively gives you helth orbs. It would give an oppourtunity to make new builds that benefits from picking up health orbs. I like the synergy idea as well though.

Quote

As for his passive, I had an idea that I think would fit him better. Since he is the pirate warframe why not add this to his current passive, casting railjack abilities uses hydroids shields instead of his energy. It feels clunky right now having to hop out of of the pilot or gunner seat to drop an energizing dash or energy pancakes just to use the avionics. Currently Hildryn and Lavos are the only Warframes that don't have to do this. I think it would be nice if the pirate Warframe actually had an advantage over other Warframes in Railjack missions.

I see what you have in mind but I don't think giving him a passive that work only in one gamemode is a good idea.

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Sadly, there have been many rework suggestions in the past for this warframe and the probability of hydroid getting any kind of decent tune up is extremely low

Don't get your hopes down, he will get his changes sooner or later. I've been playing this game for almost 8 years now and against the popular believe, I know that DE is constantly trying to improve the game. He and some other frames will get reworks they need in due time (especially if we will regularly remind them about it ;) )

[Rakosta_Kai]

@(PSN)neuronus20

I like these ideas. I do have some thoughts too though...

Passive.

Not crazy about the defense passive as the players has no control over which 50% does no damage (but it does fit the theme).

Barrage

I'm resigned to Barrage working as it does now and am just grateful it actually hits more than it misses now. I like it's current "hold to change area" setup.

Undertow

I'd prefer to see Undertow turned into a 3-in-1 power where the player gets to pick which version of the ability to use

• 1. being the original version.
• 2. being the version that lays traps ( I doubt DE will ever do this as it's been requested for years)
• 3. being similar to the oldest Iron skin where Hydroid had point defense but had regular movement slowed with it on.

 

That said, I know players have asked for similar changes to tentacles and undertow pretty much since the frame launched and while they have made a number of tweaks over time these were things that never got added/changed.

The players I have found who seems to gel best with this frame seem to rely on "surge (to herd) and dispatch" tactics as opposed to the "ranged CC caster tank" his kit reads like.

Otherwise, I think your ideas are pretty nifty as it lets current Hydroid fans keep what they have and gives potential hydroid fans stuff they'd probably like.

Nice work.

 

[(PSN)crashtester17]

5 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

Making Tidal Surge steerable also crossed my mind but i fear it would make grouping less reliable so I think more options to cancel ability is a better solution. Also yeah, the pause after the ability ends needs to be gone.

If it can be made to work without losing enemies caught by tidal surge while steering slightly to the left or right it might actually turn out better for grouping enemies with his 2. So I understand the concern of that part of the power being messed up by the change. I mainly just want to stop getting caught on boxes in hallways. 

5 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

I played Hydroid quite a lot recently and from what I saw his Tempest Barrage already knocks down enemies instead of displacing them, so it works as it should in that matter.

I know it can kinda does this now but it looks like some of the enemies are being thrown if they're hit while they're already on the ground. It's kinda funny until the cluster of enemies you just made scatters and doesn't even die. I wouldn't mind the change you suggested though. 

5 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

I wa also thinking aboiut making enemies drop energy orbs but then it would just be Hildryn's 4th ability with more damage. If we'll make it random what resource will drop then it will be a better wersion of Protea's Dispensary. Besides I don't think we have many abilities in game that passively gives you helth orbs. It would give an oppourtunity to make new builds that benefits from picking up health orbs. I like the synergy idea as well though.

The reason I would prefer more energy drops from this is because of a few reasons. One is that there are a lot of ways to heal already what with tenno and warframe arcanes, melee mods, aura mods, augments, syndicate procs, and vazarin. So having this help replenish energy more often seemed like the better option since the only alternative is energizing dash, arcane energize, syndicate procs, or the energy siphon aura. I understand that there would be synergy with spawning health orbs for the health conversion mod but I don't see anything here that would be a game changer for him especially since his augment can already heal him and potentially allies. This would almost make his augment irrelevant as health conversion with a steady health orb spawn would mean healing plus extra armor. More warframes are getting augments or abilities that can give energy but right now only hildryn and gara's spectorage can spawn energy orbs consistently. Those are my reasons for my preference. 

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

I see what you have in mind but I don't think giving him a passive that work only in one gamemode is a good idea.

That's why it wouldn't be his entire passive. He would still have his old one in addition to the new. I also suggested this because it seems like DE really wants to make railjack part of more of the core game. If things keep heading in that direction who knows how many missions this would apply to. 

 

6 hours ago, (PSN)neuronus20 said:

Don't get your hopes down, he will get his changes sooner or later. I've been playing this game for almost 8 years now and against the popular believe, I know that DE is constantly trying to improve the game. He and some other frames will get reworks they need in due time (especially if we will regularly remind them about it ;) )

I've been playing for a few years now as well and I know they eventually listen to some of the feedback while trying to improve the game. I'll keep looking around and commenting on hydroid rework/tune up ideas and keep hoping that they'll eventually look at them. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. 

[PsiWarp]

IMO, add a new debuff that makes enemies actually get wet from Hydroid's abilities. 

[(PSN)crashtester17]

7 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

IMO, add a new debuff that makes enemies actually get wet from Hydroid's abilities. 

What would the wet debuff do?

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 hour ago, (PSN)crashtester17 said:

What would the wet debuff do?

Make them wet  ;)

Honestly though, this should be a visual effect, but I can understand not wanting to take the time to implement it.