A Look At The Gradivus Dilemma

[theGreatZamboni]

If you choose not to read the post due to its length, you have no right to comment. Commenting on length does nothing to further the discussion. Topics involving flawed game design cannot always be brief. The use of the label of beta is not an excuse for failing to create a means in which your game can improve and succeed. The gaming industry has claimed the label of beta and used it to describe what in actuality is a Minimum Viable Product.

 

This post is about the parallels between lore and gameplay. A game can stand on gameplay alone. Warframe is lacking in core design, therefore standing alone on gameplay is something it is incapable of, currently. The lore in the capacity in which it currently exists serves to highlight issues of the core game. Therefore, basing an event around extensive storytelling/lore you create a means to showcase the flaws of your game's design. When you cannot create context for player actions, they will cease to show interest. But creating context alone is not enough. If the fun factor is also absent, it becomes a grand snowball effect where each lacking element exists to amply showcase what is wrong with the game.

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The Gradivus Dilemma has been a failed experiment in my eyes. What this event has done is show DE's unwillingness to accept criticism and act upon said criticism. Let's break down what this event was and how it fits into the greater scheme of the game.

 

First look here

 

What we have are transmissions detailing Alad V's discovery of Tenno Cryopods. This is the first mistake, which I will get into later. Next you will notice a response from General Ruk, who curiously is being represented by his old model. Now this is not a big deal, but it is the attention to detail and the small things that compliment larger instances of competence that can push a product or experience over the edge. Finally it is finished up with a response from the Lotus, who says she cannot in good faith tell us who to support. Something I find, as a player/Tenno, hard to believe.

 

When you construct an event around lore, you had better make sure you are aware of what information your consumer is exposed to. This is something that drove the skepticism of myself and others about the idea that the Lotus cannot instruct us "in good conscious" which side to take. Like many others who were first exposed to this game, you are made a skeptic almost immediately. In game, you wake up with amnesia and are being instructed to carry out mass murder against sects of people based on the idea of "you should totally trust me". This being a trope often used in all forms of entertainment is one many people draw connections to when exposed to the possibility of it being true. Because of the nature of the information available, we are left to fill in the blanks. Anyone who is capable of objective thought, could see why anyone would be wary of being led around by an entity you cannot see and whom you do not remember. DE had to then flat out tell us the Tenno were the good guys, even though their actions and motives are still suspicious.

 

This is what I understand given the information I have been exposed to. The Grineer are a race run by a matriarchy. They use cloning and biological engineering to inflate their number and combat their limitations imposed by being formerly human. The cloning technology is supplied to them by the Corpus, which is inherently flawed to keep the Grineer in check. The thought behind this is that the Corpus are extremely lacking in numbers in comparison to the Grineer and if they did not posses this trump card, the Grineer would not stand for their insolence. This is the reason for the Corpus proxy army consisting of drones. The Grineer are a warmongering, militant race and seek to conquer the Origin/Sol System. They currently have Tyl Regor working on a cure for the issues imposed by the Corpus cloning technology, which is causing each generation of cloned Grineer to become more unstable. The Tenno, have assassinated Tyl Regor, millions of times in the meta game. The Corpus want Orokin tech as it is extremely powerful. The Grineer want this tech as well. The Tenno are connected to the Orokin and may posses the secrets to better understand the Orokin within themselves.

 

The Tenno are supposedly the protectors of balance. Whether this was their former mission or not is unknown. It has been said by Steve that the Tenno are the protectors/defenders of the Orokin. Like most things, this was said off the cuff and really holds not weight due to DE choosing not to follow through on it. So as the Tenno, your mission is to preserve balance, not enforce peace. You are told in the Alpha trailer you need to stop the Grineer because they are bad. To take what is stated in said video as cannon is foolish, but it is one of the the only ways in which to create and understand context for your actions as a player. So we need to rescue fellow Tenno and stop the Grineer. That is what has been explained to us. The reason we need to rescue other Tenno, is because they are in cryosleep. I have my own head-cannon for this, but it will not be present here. Both the Grineer and the Corpus want said cryopods. In many cases it is implied, again, the reason for their coveting of the pods is to unlock the secrects of the Orokin.

 

Let's stop for a second. What secrets? What can taking a Tenno and reverse engineering them do to help them better understand the Orokin? It is implied that the Corpus already have an extensive knowledge of Orokin tech and already own hundreds of Tenno. See Agt. Nef Anyo. He has been collecting and re-selling the Tenno to buyers, possibly unbeknownst to the Corpus. This creates the theme of going into business for himself, in spite of being a ranking officer in the Corpus army. So the idea of creating profit is often a motive for Corpus crewmen. Here is a battle-quote from Nef, "Orokin [knowledge/secrets] cannot remain secret forever! Start talking!" So here is where this makes no sense. The splintering and idea of being in business for yourself to generate individual profit is an idea that certain Corpus act on. While others follow the ideal of "profit for the Corpus Empire". So now the quote above and understanding the motives for certain Corpus, that brings us to Operation Arid Fear.

 

Let's look at the driving factors behind this event and what it entailed. The Corpus had the knowledge and the means to create artificial Void Keys to enter and hide in the Void. The Corpus also were able to reverse engineer Orokin Tech to create the Fusion MOA laser. It doesn't seem like they are starving for Orokin secrets. But the reason they go to hide in the Void, is to avoid the Tenno from collecting coordinates the Corpus have on the location of a Grineer base, so they can continue to extort them for money. This makes no @(*()$ sense. Given the location of where said base was, Phobos; how hard was this information to obtain? Players were subjected to hours of grinding to obtain coordinates for the location of a Moon which we know exists in present day. This shows the limitations of containing the story in one solar system. Because DE are not using it to their advantage, it is backfiring on them. But back to this idea of "motive".

 

Alad V was behind Arid Fear. Like Nef, he seems to go into business for himself. This explains the idea of him starting the Zanuka project, to create a name for himself among his superiors. This is something I have deduced and is not cannon. But again let's look at this from the perspective what is presented to us. Somehow the Lotus has the ability to intercept and decode messages sent between factions, but was unable to locate Phobos. Both the Corpus and Grineer wan the "secrets" of the Orokins and feel that by tampering with Tenno, they can achieve this. Well like I stated above, the Corpus are no slouches when it comes to Orokin tech; what about the Grineer? Well, they are just as competent as the Corpus. Vor is able to use his Key as a weapon, enter the Void and even has a Orokin tech infused pistol. Kinda makes it seem like they do not have more secretes to unlock, yet we are told this is what they want. We are also told that the Grineer want to destroy the Tenno, but for some reason at the same time, want to capture and utilize their tech. Maybe that is a part of Vor's character, that he is fascinated by Orokin tech and it garners disdain from his peer and superiors. This would help explain why the Grineer on Asteroid tile missions, seem to want to blow up an Orokin reactor/generator, they saw fit to move into their Asteroid base to power it. (Yeah, it makes no @(*()$ sense) To assume this is just that. I have no clue because it isn't told to us. This is what makes the idea of "Vor's Prize" just sitting there, such a huge slap in the face. Because it was the promise of an explanation/expansion of the lore.

 

So all these flubs and inconsistencies now are tied directly to the Gradivus Dilemma. This is how it initially was played out.

 

1. Help the Corpus, you don't get your fellow Tenno back.

2. Help the Grineer, you don't get your fellow Tenno back.

 

Tenno/Player Motive: get your fellow Tenno back.

 

Now this was changed shortly after, but the damage was done. Because of the lack of clear and concise lore that was needed to make this event make sense on a narrative level, it made DE look bad. There are two motives floating around that seemingly came into play here. The Tenno are meant to stop the expansion of the Grineer, for whatever reason. They are also charged with rescuing and awakening fellow Tenno to help them fight the Grineer. Now apply these motives to the event, before the revisions.

 

1. Help the Corpus, stay true the "Mission" with the exception of lost Tenno.

2. Help the Grineer, go against your "Mission" for no reason and lose your fellow Tenno. This choice is the wrong one, because it goes against both motives.

 

So a lose-lose scenario was created. Because people lacked the want to look into this, they interpreted it in different ways. But in any case, it was a lose-lose. So they changed it. They announced said change, not on the forums initially, but via Facebook. So how many of you follow Warframe on Facebook? Do you see the issue with making announcements there? The same logic applies to members of DE's staff making posts regarding bugs and news via Twitter, but not the forums. Rebecca will often tweet that they know about a certain bug. Well, why wasn't this information relayed to the forums; or to Facebook? This is indicative of the lack of communication amongst members of DE's staff and the playerbase.

 

So now we have the revision of the event.

 

1. Help the Corpus, stay true the "Mission", with the exception of lost Tenno.

2. Help the Grineer, go against your mission, save your fellow Tenno. Then with the saved Tenno, fight back the Grineer.

 

So a lot of this in-balance exists because of the way information about Tenno motives and information was delivered. Imagine if we had no clue about the Cryopods. How would that effect player choice? That creates real consequences. But as it stands, if you were to look into it logically as I have, you can see the clear choice is to help the Grineer. Because a single Tenno is worth well over 20,000 Grineer or Corpus, saving them is worth it in the long run. The Grineer have posed no threat, we are just told they are a threat.

 

Let's look back at the event had it unfolded as planned, before the revision. The clear choice was the Corpus. So in both revisions, there as a right answer and a wrong one. If you chose the Corpus in revision 1, you stay true to one motive, but lose fellow Tenno. If you picked Grineer, you went against your initial motive and lost your fellow Tenno. The way that was presented was to clearly ensure a Corpus victory. But why; to tell the story of the Berserker Frame and make the Corpus a threat. But looking at the second revision, revision 2, the exact opposite of what was intended happened.

 

This was all an attempt to game the system by removing choice, so when DE changed it and people actually weighed their options; the only sensible choice was Grineer. This seemed to upset someone, which resulted in nodes being tampered with. It is unclear who did this and why they did it. People speculate that this was DE's doing; malicious intent or not. I have no opinion, because I am ignorant of what happened. But the notion that I would not put it past DE, speaks for itself.

 

So this event was created to lead into a story staring Alad V and the Beserker, to show off 4 weapons and to give people something to do. But lore and motives aside (both of which are/were botched) this event showcased how dire the situation is.

 

This game is in bad shape. An event was hyped to be something that was gameplay heavy and brought something new. What we got was more of the same grind. We got a few tileset variations, but were ultimately left running the same levels we normally play, over and over and over again. And while a lot of this game is replaying tilesets, tilesets that have no impact on play style or challenge aside from highlighting crappy enemy spawning. This event showed off how bad the enemy AI is. Which is strange, because DE teased/leaked a blurb last livestream about A.I. improvements. Here is why this is so bad. Because the same mistakes are being made. Just like with U10, all of these issues could have been avoided by waiting. Making sure it is polished, making sure it meets expectations, making sure features that would/could improve the experience launch alongside the event. This event could have been greatly improved had the A.I. changes been implemented, along with Armor 2.0.

 

There was nothing to these events that reflected the advertised player choice. It was the same Extermination mission with slight tile variations. Imagine playing that over and over and over again. It is not fun. This again shows, DE does not play their own game. The great ideas here are marred due to the "design by committee" mindset. 100 runs doesn't seem bad. I slept walked through most of it. But the fact I did not enjoy myself is the problem, not the number of runs. The numbers come into play, because like I said, it was not fun. There was no challenge aside from enemy spawning, as stated previously. Which is what made even more funny, my sleep walking through levels. Because I used the Ignis for the whole event, I barely had to aim. The only time I had to stop, was to wait for enemies to spawn. I did runs with people, we blew through these mission in 2:00 sessions. Fun fun! This event showcased that player choice doesn't matter, not just in the gaming of the outcome, but through the means they experienced it.

 

Nova was hands down the best for this event. Xhris of our clan did a 1:25 run as Nova with a friend. So not picking Nova, you severely limited how efficiently you could complete runs. If you are sane, you would want to get the runs over with as soon as possible, so you'd pick Nova. This all comes full circle. This event failed on every level, because it was more of the same. Because player choice has been removed. Because of limited weapon and Warframe slots, because of the nature of the mod system; there is a right and wrong way to play. You are punished if you play incorrectly. You are barred from experiencing all the game has to offer because of poor practices. Sure, now you have enough materials and new taters, forma, prints; but do you have the slots to utilize them?

 

After running this event I now have 800+ Control Modules, 400,000 Alloy Plate and 300,000 Rubedo. Wasn't a point of contention as of late the uselessness of resources? Didn't DE try something really foolish with U10 to deal with all the extra crap people had? So you created an event that exacerbates this issue and showcases everything that is wrong with the game. Something that is supposed to be a unique encounter was reduced to tedium, like the rest of the game. As of last week I have encountered Stalker 17 times. I have encountered him before this; but 17 times in a week? For 12 of them he was after me.

 

So now in the end, getting back to a point made earlier, millions of Corpus have died. Which leads me to believe they are not so few in numbers as once stated. Also if the Grineer are so upset; why don't they wage the multi-front war they know the Corpus cannot? If the Grineer army is so massive compared to the Corpus, why wouldn't the full force of said army be there to remind the Corpus not to act out of line again. Another thing, the stakes being "Grineer influence will spread"; spread into what? There are no civilians in this universe that we know of, so why are we so worried? If the Grineer are dying due to bad cloning tech; why not just wait out their own extinction? If the Corpus purposefully limited the cloning tech; why don't the Corpus combat their only weakness by using the functioning cloning tech to inflate their numbers? None of this makes any sense. All that can be said now is that if DE continuously refuses to ignore criticism and refuse to utilize us as a community, this game will die IN spite of us.

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Some more heavy reading:

 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/109912-i-meant-to-write-about-death-only-life-came-breaking-in-as-usual/page-18#entry1274770

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/123924-a-chance-to-make-it-right/page-2#entry1464425

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/122513-why-cant-4-million-tenno-accomplish-two-objectives-at-once-faction-event-problem/page-4#entry1446444

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119790-question-about-statements-by-de/page-3#entry1404552

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119790-question-about-statements-by-de/?p=1407965

 

(I am fixing errors in wording/grammar/spelling, be patient.)

Edited October 31, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[spinestomper]

the game is in beta of course this was a test... why read into it so much... ppl are losing there minds over this event.... the game is still in beta... please stop

[Luart]

Wall of Text crits Master Zalm for 9999. Master Zalm has fainted.

emm you forgot that its super effective.. :(

[Sophista]

TL:DR. Do me a better event,

[Firetempest]

Event was already set up. Anything that was wrong with this type of event (first of its kind mind you) can be improved in the next event. /thread.

[MasterZalm]

emm you forgot that its super effective.. :(

 

Damn, knew I forgot part of that reference.

[Aure7]

All I can complain about is repetitive gameplay during event, and repetitive gameplay during entire game. 

[kennylagenz]

beta

[Hixlysss]

First, game is in beta. Second, how much more "varied" can the actual gameplay be without there being boss fights or potentially glitchy puzzle rooms and such. Third, the event itself was just that, an event of the lore of the game.

 

And WOW that is a giant wall of text. Someone once said, if you can't explain something simply, you don't know it well enough.

[TheDrift]

the event was fine for me

 

 

got a lot of free stuff

 

plenty of slots to use said stuff

 

by picking grineer (my clan planned on killing corpus from way long time ago) we lost a few tenno to save more (lores fine with me)

 

 

 

 

they did actually give you a choice, corpus or grineer.  now before you say omg but the prizes!!!!  prizes were in my eyes somewhat even (no not even but close)  the choice was the players on who to support plain and simple

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see a problem

Edited October 30, 2013 by TheDrift

[Implodingbanana]

i tried to read the whole thing (i think i succeed) and i think ur right the game needs a little tidying up to make more sense and yes we need at least a little lore to clear things up a bit.

Edited October 30, 2013 by thecool1232

[CY13ERPUNK]

OP is not really a wall of text, its actually pretty well formatted, so +1 for that

but damn son, OP needs to chill the F*** out

the game is in beta of course this was a test... why read into it so much... ppl are losing there minds over this event.... the game is still in beta... please stop

what he said

[Quasar-Sandwich]

I think that if a I gave two sh!ts about any thread like this then I'd prolly have to take like 800 sh!ts.

 

Ain't nobody got time for that, I'd prolly die.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DragonSage

[Dracorya]

I would like it if DE would just spend a tad more effort in lore...there is a lot of potential here. :( I'm a sucker for a good story behind a game.

[Zachles]

God, this community is full of cry babies. I'd like to see you do a better job.

[Laecerelius]

I loved this event.  I cared more about the individual rewards from the invasion areas than the end rewards.  I doubt I'll care much about any sort of one handed melee weapon so those are worthless to me and without any actual stats for the pistols I'm not too keen on those either.  However, potato blueprints, completed research components, and generally alert-only/expensive blueprints?  Nice.  Plus it was great to get tons of control modules and other resources so I won't have to grind as much for them later.  Overall, I liked this event.

[SmilingReaper]

I'm starting to think the corpus butthurt will never end

[immolator1001]

I read half and then it got too whiny, basically op's problem was the community had to make a choice and when they did it wasn't what op wanted. Your Chewbacca argument just doesn't make sense. 

[Gameoverman]

wow just look at all the beta

[CyborgCommando]

ok i have to say it long winded much? my eyes started bleeding after reading this look no offense to what others think but a beta game is made to test things out not be 100% as how people want it to be take a huge step back stop running for office cut the devs a break it's not a easy thing to make a game as good as this one is turning out

 

so some of the Lore does not add up at this date but hell what game's Lore does all add up in beta as many say it's still a beta so cool your jets people

Edited October 30, 2013 by CyborgCommando

[DAFIRE]

Wall of Text crits Master Zalm for 9999. Master Zalm has fainted.

That xD

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I read half and then it got too whiny, basically op's problem was the community had to make a choice and when they did it wasn't what op wanted. Your Chewbacca argument just doesn't make sense.

I read through to it all, but I'm left scratching my head at how much what he's saying is utter nonsense. Like, attacking DE over a typeo that they subsequently fixed? We're talking making a mole hill into bloody Everest here.

I mean, the rest of his points are so hilariously off kilter that I'm not sure where to start, but that one really sticks out at me as amazingly full of lolwats.

[Agua]

I read the title and I was specting another guy whining about they didn't get the rewards or how it was unfair because his clan couldn't get a prize. You make some really good points, but until they release the PS4 version I will consider the game on open beta and allow this type of mistakes.

 

Also, they are really messing thing up with crappy lore, they should really stop and find a direction there, or they will end up messing the whole game.
 

I personally liked the event, but it was flawed at several levels. I'm positive about this, and thinking they will improve the low points for the next one. What I'm not positive about is the lore, I really hope they can start building something, no one wants to shoot and kill for no reason at all.

[Kinperor]

"The Gradivus Dilemma has been a failed experiment in my eyes."

 

There are no failed experiment. DE is throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks, like they always do. 

[Othergrunty]

Yeah the event kind of highlighted the issues with the AI and gameplay in general. It also didn't deliver on what was promised by having us run one and the same extermination mission over and over.

Playing with lower settings, where there any space ships fighting it out in the backround as Steve promised? I didn't saw jack.

 

I find it hillarious how for month we had the annoying screen shaking from the Grineer Napalm troopers, we complained but nothing happend. Then the event starts and thousands of players are forced to experience it first hand over and over. So someone finaly reacts and changes it in a single hotfix. So now we finaly can fight Napalms (which are bad enough) without our crosshairs and eyes being shaken around by their explosions.

And then there is hyper active lockdown activation which also got switched off in the event mission rather quickly for the same reason.

 

About which suit was more suited for the event. I actualy ran with a Rhino, mostly to be safe from these damn Shockwave Moas and the ever annoying laser barriers of the auto aiming secruity cameras.

Which brings us to one problem that was adressed in another thread. Grineer were more favorable as allies, alone to avoid the stupid amount of effect spamming or overpowered units they have.

So having sided with the Grineer i was safe from the knockback of the heavy units, Scorpions and Shield Lancers, the stagger from the Rollers, the insane splash damage of the Napalm and insta death attacks of the Scorch.

I allready mentiod in the last Grineer Workshop post, that it's baffeling how it seems like their answer to missing challenge is to add more annoyance and nobody has more annoyance units than the Grineer.

So running with Rhino against Corpus was the best way to numb the tiresome repetive grind a bit.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Othergrunty