How Come The More I Read, The More I Hate?

[thatdamnlobster]

We are spoiled because we expect quality. Really? I'm not saying they owe me personally. I'm saying if they want to succeed they better listen to what we say. As much as you want to take everything they shovel out a lot of people won't. I don't think few hundred grand masters can keep this game afloat by themselves.

too be honest, I'm glad they don't listen to everything we say. This game would have died months ago. 

[General_Krull]

Fair enough. From what Google shows me it looks difficult and way over my head. I'm in administration, not a computer monkey :P

I still say the fact that the game is being made to show it's own drops is a sign of hard won experience, not past malfeasance.

I'm sticking with Hanlon on this one. I don't think they realized they needed too. No game in their past has needed such a function.

That just means they don't know their own game which is sad. This entire game revolves around getting drops.

 

too be honest, I'm glad they don't listen to everything we say. This game would have died months ago. 

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=230410&from=1380747308

It's bleeding. Badly. You make it sound like everyone here is clueless and completely new to videogames. We may not be designers or coders but we know what we like and what people in general like. Just like people who appreciate art or good food may not be artists or chefs themselves. 

[thatdamnlobster]

a wise man once said: "its not what people do, but why they do it that we should be concerned".

i dont think DE is evil, but i think they lost sight of the big picture some time back.

mind you, i feel they have gotten a bit more on track, but still...

I don't think that quote applies. I don't think DE has done anything but try new things they never did before and fail. and now they are picking themselves back up. They mess up, but different things happened each time. it's not tlike the same thing over and over

[ErudiusNacht]

I'm glad you understand that. It all comes down to a matter of perspective. Most of your complaints revolve around exclusivity, which is something I've never cared about. My complaints (things like the U10 stamina nerf, unbalanced damage types, lack of lore) are either fixed or in the pipeline. I've been consistently pleased by DE's actions so I can't help but defend them.

They can't please everyone and in some cases they flat out can't or won't.

 

I apologize if I seem offensive, I;m only like this when I'm personally invested in something. I was invested in this game. Past tense.

 

Yes, my OP seemed to revolve around exclusivity, but that was not my intention, I merely wanted to point out the big unaddressed things in the game. I have complaints about U10 myself, being a Rhino fan, I hated U10. The damage types, limited gameplay. The lack of lore, was both bad and good; bad because everybody was left hanging; good because it stimulated imagination, even my own novel.

 

The thing with "minor" issues is that, yes, fixes are in the pipeline, but the same pipeline also carries new items to fix. And again. And again. For me, WF now looks like a big patched up house with lots of extensions that went out in different directions. You add a new wing, you break the roofing, you patch it. Repaint a room, hit the wiring, put on some duct tape. You can't deny the frustration of this continuous cycle.

[thatdamnlobster]

 

 

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=230410&from=1380747308

It's bleeding. Badly. You make it sound like everyone here is clueless and completely new to videogames. We may not be designers or coders but we know what we like and what people in general like. Just like people who appreciate art or good food may not be artists or chefs themselves. 

all this tells me is everyone got tired of farming the event missions and is taking a break. everytime my clan does an event the clan gets quiet for a few days so people can relaxe after a week of farming. This graph proves nothing

[ValhaHazred]

The game already autogenerates the drop rates based on what DE classifies as common/uncommon/rare drops. They handwaved Forma rates from 12% to ~1% as dilution because that was what it was.

If it is the way you suggest it actually absolves them of guilt because it would have been a bug, not some kind of evil plot to make people buy more plat.

too be honest, I'm glad they don't listen to everything we say. This game would have died months ago.

I couldn't agree more. There are some spectacularly stupid ideas and plenty of good but overly ambitious ones. The odd good and useful idea does seem to make it in. The Wardex for example.

[SJunior]

all this tells me is everyone got tired of farming the event missions and is taking a break. everytime my clan does an event the clan gets quiet for a few days so people can relaxe after a week of farming. This graph proves nothing

 

Also, The graph goes back up each time it goes down. So.. I assume it'll just go back up.

Edited November 2, 2013 by SJunior

[Letter13]

The thing with "minor" issues is that, yes, fixes are in the pipeline, but the same pipeline also carries new items to fix. And again. And again. For me, WF now looks like a big patched up house with lots of extensions that went out in different directions. You add a new wing, you break the roofing, you patch it. Repaint a room, hit the wiring, put on some duct tape. You can't deny the frustration of this continuous cycle.

 

That's actually how a lot of it feels to me. I'd rather have a pause of content updates in order to really work to rebuild/fix a lot of the existing mechanics that are broken or lacking. Call it a "Technical" update if you will. I'd happily sacrifice 1~2 months of content if it means fixing a lot of the broken mechanics and underlying issues that seem to make the community unhappy. All of the content updates seem to compound the issues that already exist... I'd rather live in a small, well built and cozy home than a drafty, patched together and boarded up mansion.

 

edit: great analogy by the way

[General_Krull]

Also, The graph goes back up each time it goes down. So.. I assume it'll just go back up.

http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=230410&from=1364763600000&to=End+Time

 

This is from april to today. The Highest peak keeps getting lower and lower. Well this last event raised it but it went down fast. And if new player experience doesn't improve soon it won't get much higher.

[ValhaHazred]

snip

+1. Now that you've calmed down a bit and have entered the debate you make much more sense and actually raise some good points. They've been said before, but that doesn't make them untrue.

I agree new content brings new bugs, but they do fix more than they break. I've seen more unstable Betas than this come and go.

I'm not sure what you mean by this part

I have complaints about U10 myself, being a Rhino fan, I hated U10. The damage types, limited gameplay.

Why is this a specific issue with u10? What does Rhino have to do with anything? I get the damage types suck and so do they. The gameplay has stayed fairly simple since day one, what does u10 in particular have to do with it?

[TintedLenz]

If it is the way you suggest it actually absolves them of guilt because it would have been a bug, not some kind of evil plot to make people buy more plat.

Knowing that your system automatically generates drop rates is not a reason not to check things by hand. You're not going to input stuff into your system without checking the output, because that is incredibly irresponsible.

[ErudiusNacht]

all this tells me is everyone got tired of farming the event missions and is taking a break. everytime my clan does an event the clan gets quiet for a few days so people can relaxe after a week of farming. This graph proves nothing

 

Also, The graph goes back up each time it goes down. So.. I assume it'll just go back up.

 

Please analyze this more thoroughly. Seasonally, it goes up and down, just like a normal product. And yes, I would agree with you that it is normal and can be expected as people do take a break. But please take a look the bigger picture (I've made one for you guys).

 

 

Everytime people do return, there's less and less people. And if we use business analysis here (I'm sorry, I'm a business consultant), if you look at the greater trend, it is going down. The maximum points, assuming they are the events, are getting lower and lower. The same principle applies to sales in marketing and stocks in the stock market.

 

Though DE had recovered its minimums in October, meaning higher minimum log-ins, the trend can be interpolated as going down again if DE doesn't do anything.

 

Disclaimer: This information is publicly available on Steam Graph (http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=230410&from=1362067200000&to=1383321600000).

[ValhaHazred]

Knowing that your system automatically generates drop rates is not a reason not to check things by hand. You're not going to input stuff into your system without checking the output, because that is incredibly irresponsible.

No it doesn't, but it does explain why it would take them so long to identify the problem. Like I said, I'm not a computer guy, but I know enough about programming to know something as simple as one of these [ things in the wrong place can make code say one thing and do another.

It's kind of pointless to argue though, because it was done by hand and was human error.

[ChaoticVice777]

<snip>

 

Holy buckets, that's a lot of rage and bias. Let's filter that from your actual response:

 

1) People get bored and you got burnt out over several months.

 

2) Ced23Ric left not only because he was dissatisfied with the status of Warframe at the time, but also because the developers/higher-ups told him that he lacked impartiality and/or was being naiveté at times. Also, community moderators are volunteers, not employees.

 

3) The worst DE has done is being vague, omitting truths, and/or telling half-truths/white lies. Complete lies haven't been made yet, as far as I know.

 

EDIT: In terms of business, isn't two years required before conducting meaningful analysis to the long-term profitability/viability of a business? Also, Steam is but a portion of the Warframe players. Overall, more data is needed.

Edited November 2, 2013 by ChaoticVice777

[alchemistjkt]

3) The worst DE has done is being vague, omitting truths, and/or telling half-truths/white lies. Complete lies haven't been made yet, as far as I know.

"the drop rates have been diluted"

"we are trying to cut back on the grind"

"exclusive"

 

just to name some of the more... "well known" ones.

[General_Krull]

Holy buckets, that's a lot of rage and bias. Let's filter that from your actual response:

 

1) People get bored and you got burnt out over several months.

 

2) Ced23Ric left not only because he was dissatisfied with the status of Warframe at the time, but also because the developers/higher-ups told him that he lacked impartiality and/or was being naiveté at times. Also, community moderators are volunteers, not employees.

 

3) The worst DE has done is being vague, omitting truths, and/or telling half-truths/white lies. Complete lies haven't been made yet, as far as I know.

Last drop rate debacle they said drop rates were only diluted but dataminers proved it wasn't. But I guess to you lying isn't changing the truth to suit own needs. And now some people are saying  they are getting odd drops from void so I guess they changed drop tables again. So no point in trying to get anything cause we don't know where anything drops.

[ChaoticVice777]

"the drop rates have been diluted"

"we are trying to cut back on the grind"

"exclusive"

 

just to name some of the more... "well known" ones.

 

In order:

 

Omission of the truth

Vagueness

Half-truths

 

I still haven't been shown a complete lie, though I'm well aware that the developers have made mistakes and/or made false conclusions from faulty data, like "armor is working as intended" situation.

 

Last drop rate debacle they said drop rates were only diluted but dataminers proved it wasn't. But I guess to you lying isn't changing the truth to suit own needs. And now some people are saying  they are getting odd drops from void so I guess they changed drop tables again. So no point in trying to get anything cause we don't know where anything drops.

 

The best lies use a grain of truth, and lies doesn't necessarily need to suit one's own needs. Refer to my response above and apply that to the drop table issues.

Edited November 2, 2013 by ChaoticVice777

[ValhaHazred]

Sorry ErudiusNacht, I'm bugging out of this thread. You're ok, but Kull and alchemist are chomping at the bit to argue about a dead issue. I don't particularly want to read it or participate further.

[General_Krull]

In order:

 

Omission of the truth

Vagueness

Half-truths

 

I still haven't been shown a complete lie, though I'm well aware that the developers have made mistakes and/or made false conclusions from faulty data. Refer to the "armor is working as intended" situation.

All are different words for lying.

[ChaoticVice777]

All are different words for lying.

 

Technically, no:

 

1) Omitting information has nothing to do with lying, as you're still telling the truth.

 

2) Vagueness does not imply lying, but you could derive false conclusions and make invalid arguments. Thus, people can accuse you of lying.

 

3) There's a difference between lies and white lies/half-truths, especially when taken into the context and overall category classification.

[thatdamnlobster]

Yeah Im done too, when people start nitpicking small things its time to leave.

[ErudiusNacht]

Guys, let's not argue the definition of a lie here. Leave it to the people making dictionaries. What I want to point out in my previous post

Please analyze this more thoroughly. Seasonally, it goes up and down, just like a normal product. And yes, I would agree with you that it is normal and can be expected as people do take a break. But please take a look the bigger picture (I've made one for you guys).

 

 

Everytime people do return, there's less and less people. And if we use business analysis here (I'm sorry, I'm a business consultant), if you look at the greater trend, it is going down. The maximum points, assuming they are the events, are getting lower and lower. The same principle applies to sales in marketing and stocks in the stock market.

 

Though DE had recovered its minimums in October, meaning higher minimum log-ins, the trend can be interpolated as going down again if DE doesn't do anything.

 

Disclaimer: This information is publicly available on Steam Graph (http://steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=230410&from=1362067200000&to=1383321600000).

is that DE should move to get things right.

 

I know they're new to MMORPG's, more so to the point that WF is somehow unique that it's a third person shooter and not that "equipment and stats" style game. With or without me as a continuing player, as a business, WF is dying. As a player, a stakeholder, and a business consultant, I advise them to stop with the numerous small additions and fix the core game.

Edited November 2, 2013 by ErudiusNacht

[General_Krull]

Guys, let's not argue the definition of a lie here. Leave it to the people making dictionaries. What I want to point out in my previous post

is that DE should move to get things right.

 

I know they're new to MMORPGS, more so to the point that WF is somehow unique that it's a third person shooter and not that "equipment and stats" style game. With or without me as a continuing player, as a business, WF is dying. As a player, a stakeholder, and a business consultant, I advise them to stop with the numerous small additions and fix the core game.

Agreed.

[ChaoticVice777]

I know they're new to MMORPG's, more so to the point that WF is somehow unique that it's a third person shooter and not that "equipment and stats" style game. With or without me as a continuing player, as a business, WF is dying. As a player, a stakeholder, and a business consultant, I advise them to stop with the numerous small additions and fix the core game.

 

Isn't that what they're trying to by Update 11 though, with the Codex and Armor 2.0?

[General_Krull]

Isn't that what they're trying to by Update 11 though, with the Codex and Armor 2.0?

Yeah but they said they would do that with U8, then U9 and then U10.