Anyone else feel like interest in TennoGen has kind of petered out?

[TheGodofWiFi]

I was looking over the TennoGen page on Steam and it honestly looks the exact same as it did when I checked it out a few months ago with maybe five or six new additions that are mainly a few sword skins or armour pieces. I feel like enthusiasm for TennoGen has kind of decreased over the years and at the moment it feels like it's at its lowest. We don't see a lot of skins for different frames, with most of the main warframe submissions these days being for Wisp.

Anyone feel like TennoGen has really slowed down these days? Maybe it's just me but I genuinely think the output and enthusiasm for TennoGen simply isn't the same.

[MagPrime]

Last I heard its difficult to get skins approved to begin with and the options for things to make is limited by what DE releases files for. 

Both things might be a large part of why its less active, people either can't get their work approved or nothing new to work on. 

[Xycelium]

Well, you're checking after the time of a TennoGen Round has concluded, so of course there's going to be a slow down of TennoGen submissions. That always usually happens since either artists have just started working on new projects or working on old / previously rejected items. It tends to pick up after the announcement of a new deadline for the next Round, especially near the time of that deadline reaching. I feel like this has been a present pattern for quite some time already, so I figured some people would notice it now. But that's not the same of people losing enthusiasm over the system. Rather, I've just seen a stagnant level of engagement, which for me is fine by itself.

Another thing I don't understand is that, I'm not sure if we're looking at the same Workshop? Not only have the most recent submissions not been just Armor Pieces or Sword Skins, but Wisp doesn't even have that much of a recurrence on the Workshop. Sure, plenty of items *on* the Workshop, but that's not the same in regards to having those items being always added. I feel like this complaint might be conflated with the whole "4 Wisp skins in a single Round" fiasco that recently happened (which honestly, I don't care), or perhaps the way how you are seeing the Workshop based on search settings (since there is a Most Recent / Recently Updated tabs and such). 

Honestly, I don't see the pessimism, maybe I'm just optimistic and still see artists working on stuff daily (which is enough for me), and I'm not worrying about whether or not the Workshop has a weekly splurge of uploads. Besides, it can take quite some time to work on a single skin, so I can understand the length between these uploads. 

On 2022-01-11 at 9:06 AM, MagPrime said:

Last I heard its difficult to get skins approved to begin with and the options for things to make is limited by what DE releases files for. 

Ehh... yes and no.

Honestly, it's generally hard for any item to get approved in these sort of "community submitted, creator curated" type of programs, it's only that DE has a strict set of guidelines that actually make it clearer (and to an extent) more easy to figure out how to design a given piece. Sure, still vague sometimes but it's better than flipping a hundred coins in some other cases. Although, I do recall in a recent TennoGen reveal stream (forgot which one) where one of the devs explained that they have been levying some of the restrictions and guidelines for TennoGen in some small ways. It's probably why the recent Rounds have actually been plenty in regards to the amount of items they have had.

Also, it is true that available items are indeed limited by what DE releases files for, but that's pretty necessary for both DE and artists as on one hand: DE offers a free and direct reference to apply a given model / texture on top of, and the other: the artists will have a better understanding of their limitations and potential choices when given that reference. It's a win-win for both parties, and not having that would be a nightmare to manage. 

On 2022-01-11 at 9:06 AM, MagPrime said:

people either can't get their work approved or nothing new to work on. 

I mean, if someone did get their item rejected, DE usually gives feedback to said item, so that is something *technically* new to work on, albeit something new from something old (if that makes sense).

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2022-01-11 at 9:06 AM, MagPrime said:

Last I heard its difficult to get skins approved to begin with and the options for things to make is limited by what DE releases files for. 

Both things might be a large part of why its less active, people either can't get their work approved or nothing new to work on. 

I have always wondered why they so heavily limit what people can make skins for.  There are so many weapons I like that are just...  Horribly ugly.  I was absolutely campaigning for literally any kind of decent, non-bundle-only dual swords skin and they finally put one in Baro.  Do you have any idea how much I would spend on skins for some of these weapons?  I have tennogen for two handed nikanas and I don't even use them that much.  Sweet baby Nef, let me make my Kuva Hind not look like an infested baguette so I actually want to pull it out of my arsenal.  Let me change my Amprex to look like anything other than a 6 year old's drawing of a pickup truck.  I have it hidden while holstered because I hate looking at it.  I was ecstatic when they released the Unreal skins for console because I love my Stahlta but the base model looks like it came out of a 1980's B movie scifi flick, and not a good one.

There is so much I would pay for, if they would just put out skins for it.  Whatever it is holding the whole thing back, they need to fix.  I'd bet money it's spaghetti code issues.

 

[MagPrime]

56 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I have always wondered why they so heavily limit what people can make skins for.  There are so many weapons I like that are just...  Horribly ugly.  I was absolutely campaigning for literally any kind of decent, non-bundle-only dual swords skin and they finally put one in Baro.  Do you have any idea how much I would spend on skins for some of these weapons?  I have tennogen for two handed nikanas and I don't even use them that much.  Sweet baby Nef, let me make my Kuva Hind not look like an infested baguette so I actually want to pull it out of my arsenal.  Let me change my Amprex to look like anything other than a 6 year old's drawing of a pickup truck.  I have it hidden while holstered because I hate looking at it.  I was ecstatic when they released the Unreal skins for console because I love my Stahlta but the base model looks like it came out of a 1980's B movie scifi flick, and not a good one.

There is so much I would pay for, if they would just put out skins for it.  Whatever it is holding the whole thing back, they need to fix.  I'd bet money it's spaghetti code issues.

 

I've already spent far too much money on TennoGen and I agree, if they made more content available to artists, I would spend far too much more money.

[Xycelium]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Sweet baby Nef, let me make my Kuva Hind not look like an infested baguette so I actually want to pull it out of my arsenal.  Let me change my Amprex to look like anything other than a 6 year old's drawing of a pickup truck.  I have it hidden while holstered because I hate looking at it.  I was ecstatic when they released the Unreal skins for console because I love my Stahlta but the base model looks like it came out of a 1980's B movie scifi flick, and not a good one.

You have to remember the hurdle when it comes to DE and how they manage TennoGen by making it both “simple” for both them and artists whenever making and implementing items.

To put this in simpler terms; whenever a Warframe skin is made by a TG artist, they are only allowed to make a new model for the helmet (or not), but no sort of modifications or additions to the body model can be made. This is because even if the base model is used, a single change will make it considered to be a completely new one by the previously rigged skeleton. Yes, even TennoGen skins have to be rigged, but because of them using a model that was previously done so, it’s much easier.

Thats mainly why Primary / Secondary weapon remodels are so difficult, since they require additional animation and skeleton rigging to properly work. And that would most likely require DE to give access to certain skeleton rigs and animation files to TG artists, and this can be good and bad; as now animators can be apart of the TennoGen process (more artists is always good) but can absolutely further complicate issues depending on why a skin would be rejected (faulty animations, poor skeleton rigging, improper placement of magazines, etc).

At most, I can see testing these waters with Bows and Throwing weapon skins, as they mostly share similar animations across the board (and even then a lot of work would have to be done on DE’s part). Much easier than having to do with the potentially unlimited amount of new animation work for other weapon types.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

16 hours ago, Scruffel said:

You have to remember the hurdle when it comes to DE and how they manage TennoGen by making it both “simple” for both them and artists whenever making and implementing items.

To put this in simpler terms; whenever a Warframe skin is made by a TG artist, they are only allowed to make a new model for the helmet (or not), but no sort of modifications or additions to the body model can be made. This is because even if the base model is used, a single change will make it considered to be a completely new one by the previously rigged skeleton. Yes, even TennoGen skins have to be rigged, but because of them using a model that was previously done so, it’s much easier.

Thats mainly why Primary / Secondary weapon remodels are so difficult, since they require additional animation and skeleton rigging to properly work. And that would most likely require DE to give access to certain skeleton rigs and animation files to TG artists, and this can be good and bad; as now animators can be apart of the TennoGen process (more artists is always good) but can absolutely further complicate issues depending on why a skin would be rejected (faulty animations, poor skeleton rigging, improper placement of magazines, etc).

At most, I can see testing these waters with Bows and Throwing weapon skins, as they mostly share similar animations across the board (and even then a lot of work would have to be done on DE’s part). Much easier than having to do with the potentially unlimited amount of new animation work for other weapon types.

That's a great explanation.

But melee weapons.  They literally use the same animations from stances.  The same stance on both Twin Basolks and Nami Skyla Prime does the same things, but they are different shapes and sizes.  How does this factor in with melee weapons?  

[Xycelium]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

But melee weapons.  They literally use the same animations from stances.  The same stance on both Twin Basolks and Nami Skyla Prime does the same things, but they are different shapes and sizes.  How does this factor in with melee weapons?  

For the most part, Melee weapons don't require any animations to actually work for themselves, so it's why they are usually simple for DE to create files for TennoGen. Now, you might be alluding to the fact that Dual Blades / Daggers for some reason aren't allowed through TennoGen, and my honest explanation for that is: I have no idea. The most I can think of, is that DE forgot it lol. I mean, only recently in the 2020 Expansion did we get certain item files like Sparring and Machete and those I would say are pretty dang simple (especially Sparring to a degree since we already have Fists files available). Only recent with certain ones like Whip skins have they started to incorporate *some* form of animation for TennoGen items as the chain of said weapon is in fact animated, and funnily enough that's handled by them giving a base model to use for that part. Which, unsurprisingly, can't be changed in model, only texture. Kinda sucks to not be able to make like a proper chain or whatnot, but I think the sacrifice is a bit worth it to potentially get some cool looking skins from it. 

In my opinion, the hardest Melee weapons to do from an animation standpoint, are Warfans and Sword & Shield. Warfans due to the constant closing and opening, and Sword and Shield due to the holster animations. Gunblades could be close, but I think that's more of an issue of regulating the position of said item so that it properly gets "fired" from.

Additionally, as a side note, there is a way for actually any item to get additional animation work, as in some cases, if the artists provide DE with any necessary particles / additional models so that an item can be animated in a specific way, DE will actually do it! Granted, I haven't seen it that much, but it's a cool offer that DE makes from time to time. Should keep in mind, usually these are very simple things, like make a piece rotate or move slightly in a mechanical fashion (just to be clear).

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

3 hours ago, Scruffel said:

For the most part, Melee weapons don't require any animations to actually work for themselves, so it's why they are usually simple for DE to create files for TennoGen. Now, you might be alluding to the fact that Dual Blades / Daggers for some reason aren't allowed through TennoGen

Dual swords and single daggers have extremely limited cosmetics.  There is at least a Baro skin for the Dual swords, but the only dagger skin in the game is bundle only.  I'm not rebuying the Nezha Deluxe skin so that I can get the dagger from it.  I didn't buy the whole bundle because there weren't any daggers worth using when that skin came out, and now I like the Karyst Prime, but it looks like an Orokin can opener and I hate it lol.

Another very confusing thing to me is that certain dual/ak weapon skins can be used on single variants, but not all of them.  It's inconsistent monetization.  I have a single skin for the Vasto/Akvasto, but I can't just take the Dual Dagger skin we have and use one for the single daggers I like.  I can't take the multiple long sword skins I have and just use two for dual swords.  DE is very strange when it comes to what they do with cosmetics.  It seems like for melee weapons where physical range doesn't actually matter, they could just literally swap models out, but I guess it being simple wouldn't be DE's style.

[Xycelium]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

I can't take the multiple long sword skins I have and just use two for dual swords.  DE is very strange when it comes to what they do with cosmetics.

While I can agree that DE is inconsistent when it comes to what they allow for cosmetics (well, one could say for other things butletsnotgetintothat), there kinda is a reason for why that might be the case? At least, in the case for TennoGen items, since DE basically has this "we don't change it unless the artist says so" type of mentality. Which essentially, they do not touch any item that's TennoGen without the artist's permission, unless it's something to do with more broad / general changes (IE Dual Energy Colors) or a fundamental bug on DE's end (IE Garuda's Claws not working). So DE basically taking any TennoGen Dagger or Sword skin and saying "you're Dual too now" would be cool for players, but kinda weird for TennoGen artists abroad. I know they would still be financially compensated (hopefully) but I'd rather an artist give that approval to DE before any gun-jumping on their end.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

3 hours ago, Scruffel said:

While I can agree that DE is inconsistent when it comes to what they allow for cosmetics (well, one could say for other things butletsnotgetintothat), there kinda is a reason for why that might be the case? At least, in the case for TennoGen items, since DE basically has this "we don't change it unless the artist says so" type of mentality. Which essentially, they do not touch any item that's TennoGen without the artist's permission, unless it's something to do with more broad / general changes (IE Dual Energy Colors) or a fundamental bug on DE's end (IE Garuda's Claws not working). So DE basically taking any TennoGen Dagger or Sword skin and saying "you're Dual too now" would be cool for players, but kinda weird for TennoGen artists abroad. I know they would still be financially compensated (hopefully) but I'd rather an artist give that approval to DE before any gun-jumping on their end.

I get where you're coming from.  I was more broadly referring to cosmetics in general.  The only dual dagger skin I know of is a DE-made skin, I'm pretty sure.  From a player perspective, it would be kind of weird to pay for a matching skin for dual swords if you already have the single version.  I could still see me doing it though.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

I'm on console

we don't get platinum discounts, only occasional single-item-discount-coupons

which cannot be applied to Tennogen

result, I don't buy Tennogen