Warframe weapon balance: The prevalence of AOE and my diminished enjoyment as a fan of single target weapons.

[Berzerkules]

18 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

And if you had read the few posts right above yours you'd have seen that there are alternative ways to deal with that, too. 🙄

But I agree with you on one thing: co-op these days is not very enjoyable. If I'm not after something specific where it's much faster to play in a group, I often turn it to solo, as well.

 

Co-op used to be the cornerstone of this game and pubs weren't a "cesspool". (Well, I don't think they are today, either, not sure what your experience there is. Just the gameplay is not very enjoyable to me nowadays.)

Unlike OP who came from shooter games like battlefield I came from mmos/rpg games. I saw like 40 frames and assumed there was going to be roles and stuff like that. I wanted to play classic glass cannon dps or crowd control support like I always did. Come from games where overkill dps was appreciated just like crowd control, tanks and healers were apricated. Didn't take long to realize that just wasn't what WF was. It's still weird to me that people get frustrated that someone else is killing stuff faster. Like there's no need for roles when any frame can dps and there isn't much use for crowd control or healers in the majority of content. 

It was probably just easier to accept the game for what it was not having watched it slowly change. I still genuinely enjoy the game though. I don't need to play with other people to have fun and I'm not going to put myself in situations where my fun is determined by random players unless I "have" to. I still run pub fissures but those haven't been fun in a long time. Fissures are just go ham on dps, get loot and gtfo. That way I can get back to playing the game how I enjoy it. I don't enjoy thrashing lvl 30 enemies just like people don't enjoy following me but at least my relics are rad and there's a good chance they're vaulted. 

Warframe is kind of unique because it has a lot of things from several types of games so it draws a lot of different types of players. The down side to that is at a certain point there isn't much that encourages us to work together. With such a varied player base there is bound to be disagreement on the direction that we think DE should take to progress the game as well. No one's opinion is wrong, your concerns are just as valid as mine, we're just here to have fun. DE is kind of in a rough spot, they can't possibly please everyone when everyone is coming from different places. 

[Venus-Venera]

tank/heal/dps doesn't work here. because trinity can be tweaked and that doesn't mean by far that she can do this role overwhelmingly. also ui in warframe is very cluttered and player bars can be easily overlooked and players can be out of reach.
tank like inaros can be tweaked for dmg. example: roar + crit arcane with combat disc aura. with a good weapon even aoe frames like saryn or volt don't stand a chance and a large group on SP is on the ground after a shot.
khora is dmg (even if annoyed) and cc at the same time?
nekros can be super tank (1500+ armor) with max range aura and camp for hours on SP with octavia ball. and he still has his pets, which i can keep on cd all the time....
many "dmg" warframes can be converted for cc or super tank.....

So these group tactics can't work here at all. Above all, many weapons can be modded against a faction so much that you don't need a group on SP. and does surv drop better loot after about an hour? just not...

[Kontrollo]

43 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Unlike OP who came from shooter games like battlefield I came from mmos/rpg games. I saw like 40 frames and assumed there was going to be roles and stuff like that. I wanted to play classic glass cannon dps or crowd control support like I always did. Come from games where overkill dps was appreciated just like crowd control, tanks and healers were apricated. Didn't take long to realize that just wasn't what WF was. It's still weird to me that people get frustrated that someone else is killing stuff faster. Like there's no need for roles when any frame can dps and there isn't much use for crowd control or healers in the majority of content. 

It was probably just easier to accept the game for what it was not having watched it slowly change. I still genuinely enjoy the game though. I don't need to play with other people to have fun and I'm not going to put myself in situations where my fun is determined by random players unless I "have" to. I still run pub fissures but those haven't been fun in a long time. Fissures are just go ham on dps, get loot and gtfo. That way I can get back to playing the game how I enjoy it. I don't enjoy thrashing lvl 30 enemies just like people don't enjoy following me but at least my relics are rad and there's a good chance they're vaulted. 

Warframe is kind of unique because it has a lot of things from several types of games so it draws a lot of different types of players. The down side to that is at a certain point there isn't much that encourages us to work together. With such a varied player base there is bound to be disagreement on the direction that we think DE should take to progress the game as well. No one's opinion is wrong, your concerns are just as valid as mine, we're just here to have fun. DE is kind of in a rough spot, they can't possibly please everyone when everyone is coming from different places. 

CC and healers used to be appreciated here, too. Even "tanks" to a degree, before it was possible to revive anyone while being almost completely invulnerable.

The problem with this game's PvE nowadays is not about someone else being able to kill stuff faster. I could bring a nuke build myself and be faster, too. It's about turning it into a "walk to the green marker" for the rest of the team. And even the nuke build itself often doesn't need many more brain cells than to do that very same thing. Also, shout-out to the obnoxious FX spam that comes with it.

Add to that that most of the time the devs are absolutely stuck in the "old ways" when it comes to what they design the new additions around. They don't want to make modes that start at level 200 or 500, or even let us choose the level.

And I generally don't have the patience to wait that long in an endless mission until it actually gets interesting. So what's left is that the ridiculous power creep has only worsened the "shared gameplay" for me, but does not do much in terms of "progression". It just makes everything feel janky instead, because they gave up on properly balancing and tuning equipment and enemies a long time ago.

Of course, the answer to that is to play solo, where you're able to tune the variables to your taste. Pretty much defeats the point of a co-op game, though. I can play solo games without an internet connection.

And if I just wanted to play Cow Clicker, I'd play that instead.

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

CC and healers used to be appreciated here, too. Even "tanks" to a degree, before it was possible to revive anyone while being almost completely invulnerable.

The problem with this game's PvE nowadays is not about someone else being able to kill stuff faster. I could bring a nuke build myself and be faster, too. It's about turning it into a "walk to the green marker" for the rest of the team. And even the nuke build itself often doesn't need many more brain cells than to do that very same thing. Also, shout-out to the obnoxious FX spam that comes with it.

Add to that that most of the time the devs are absolutely stuck in the "old ways" when it comes to what they design the new additions around. They don't want to make modes that start at level 200 or 500, or even let us choose the level.

And I generally don't have the patience to wait that long in an endless mission until it actually gets interesting. So what's left is that the ridiculous power creep has only worsened the "shared gameplay" for me, but does not do much in terms of "progression". It just makes everything feel janky instead, because they gave up on properly balancing and tuning equipment and enemies a long time ago.

Of course, the answer to that is to play solo, where you're able to tune the variables to your taste. Pretty much defeats the point of a co-op game, though. I can play solo games without an internet connection.

And if I just wanted to play Cow Clicker, I'd play that instead.

I think you're hitting on problem that is rarely discussed, how dated the mission types feel. Maybe years ago they encouraged cooperation but with all the options we have now, everything can be soloed easily. Like defense and mobile defense don't really require defending anything, it's just a killing spree. Excavation is just endless mobile d with extra steps. Rescue and capture are just a race to extract with a short pit stop. Exterminate is just a race. In survival spawns get all wonky if you don't stay together but often times there isn't much to do if everyone stays together. Most missions seem to be designed as rush to green marker and there are no objectives to encourage cooperation. Players are getting force fed power but there is no place for everyone to use it at the same time. 

Disruption is the exception imo, 4 conduits and up to 4 players. Everyone can do something at the same time and contribute while collectively working towards a common goal. I also feel it encourages different builds since it's not just kill as many trash mobs in the shortest time then race to extract. I think there are more viable options that fit multiple play styles in disruption. Since you are clearing trash mobs you need some sustainable dps but you also need single target burst dps to down demo and some cc is actually valuable. Simple things like figuring out what aura mods everyone is using before you start a run makes a difference. Having one frame dedicated to cc running something like muzzle flash with stupid high range can turn a stressful mission into a cake walk.

I really hope that the 3 new endless mission types are more like disruption and encourage players to work together. They better be playable in SP or I'm going to lose it. 

Sure, AOE is Op and obnoxious to look at but there are a lot more underlying issues to be addressed, nerfing a few outliers won't suddenly fix everything. 

[(PSN)Frostpanthers]

I started the game and got myself a Tiberon from the shot. I really like the accurate head shooting of enemies, but further I got in the game. The more I noticed that Tiberon even with 5 formas started to lose power against ever growing hordes and levels of enemies. Then I got some weapons my friends told me to get, and here we are. AoE in their approximate direction and everything dies. There is no taking cover, staying back, dodging enemies or making any tactical, priority or such decision anymore. Just blast everthing away. It changed the game for me from feeling accomplished in being accurate and making right calls to going... BZZZ, BLAM, BOOM! Just running and gunning. With Tiberon I ended up even trying the steel path, but there I ended up walking to a different wall. 1000 bullets to the gun wasn't enough. shooting 1000 bullets to lvl 102-105 grineer heads and I ran out of bullets.

This is how I noticed that single target was not up to bar. Thus I just changed to be more meta in the game. I don't think I enjoy it as much since I don't feel like I play good. I just use good guns. Acceltra, Bramma, Nukor and such. Now I can get through harder content, with less satisfaction to my own performance.

Though at last I found some solace in the bow you get from completing New war quest line. You need to play with the mods and then adapt to the fire rates speed to hit perfect shots, and the bow does acceptable damage and doesn't have ammo limits. Kudos for that.

[goodnight-KYLE]

up

I tired of shooting floor with crappy nonsense AOE.

Make warframe great again.

[(PSN)max141064]

1 minute ago, goodnight-KYLE said:

I tired of shooting floor with crappy nonsense AOE.

don't play with AOE weapons.  easy. 

Make warframe great again with your own choices. 

[goodnight-KYLE]

54 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

don't play with AOE weapons.  easy. 

Make warframe great again with your own choices. 

Once you played Steel Path survival with single target weapons, You'll change your mind.

In recent environment, there is no chance to stand againsts massive forces with single target weapons.

I'm feeling bad for newbies cause they don't know how this game was great.

[(PSN)max141064]

Just now, goodnight-KYLE said:

In recent environment, there is no chance to stand againsts massive forces with single target weapons.

Straight up not true. 

but pop off, sister. 

[goodnight-KYLE]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

Straight up not true. 

but pop off, sister. 

There is no proof.

But I cut off this endless discussion.

[(PSN)max141064]

7 minutes ago, goodnight-KYLE said:

There is no proof.

 

The fact that you don't know or have the chance to make a single target weapon strong doesn't mean that it can't get strong. 

[goodnight-KYLE]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)max141064 said:

 

The fact that you don't know or have the chance to make a single target weapon strong doesn't mean that it can't get strong. 

I know some of these weapons are great to certain situation but this is not enough.

I just want to make them usuable again for widely opinion.

[Lutesque]

16 hours ago, goodnight-KYLE said:

Once you played Steel Path survival with single target weapons, You'll change your mind.

In recent environment, there is no chance to stand againsts massive forces with single target weapons.

I'm feeling bad for newbies cause they don't know how this game was great.

Why would Newbies be in Steel Path ? 🤔

 

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

On 2022-04-29 at 3:50 AM, goodnight-KYLE said:

Once you played Steel Path survival with single target weapons, You'll change your mind.

In recent environment, there is no chance to stand againsts massive forces with single target weapons.

I'm feeling bad for newbies cause they don't know how this game was great.

Game is still great, it just starts to disappear the deeper you get into it and DE starts throwing in stuff that has little to do with what the game started as. 

It sorta just becomes 3rd person Diablo. Not to say Diablo in space is a bad thing, but the hook of the game when starting the tutorial was about space ninjas.

Numbers and effects vomit just renders the game-play hook obsolete.