AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[_LotusPrime_]

The bottom line is , vets are still forced to visit 5 -20 -50 levels content for fissures and players dont do evil out of spite to disrupts newbies gameplay , they visit those nodes because they have to if they wanna open relics.

and the second big point is , if DE is hell bent on nerfing stuff randomly time to time , there has to be a good incentive that makes single target have something , some utility function that current aoe's dont possess , otherwise players would just clump on whatevers left of DE's radar and use that till it gets nerfed too , because thats how players behave , for the better or worse.

[0_The_F00l]

4 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

oh boy , so at one hand we have 'earn your power' sure no objections , but then its okay when DE just takes it away with sheer force ?? 

Sheer force ? Sure i guess , wish they were actually a bit more direct and didn't bend over backward when whiners started crying.

5 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

and then you say DE should keep with the power creep to match for the content that is consumed at high levels , i agree to that too , but dont you see , that the latter wont happen if the power you earned is in constant danger from broad strokes with 'disruptive gameplay ' 

No , i keep mentioning this whenever the topic comes up. 

Power creep is not the same as power progression.

Power creep is when new gear is available by skipping the previous content, that outclasses the previous top gear, making any prior investment obsolete without actually adding any more practical difficulty to the game.

Power progression is when you have gradual increase in both the gear you get and the difficulty of the content it is applied in , and you cannot skip the previous content to get it.

I am a promoter of progression , not creep.

And there cant be progression without some semblance of balance to act as a baseline , DE let it get out of hand in the past , but hopefully they are trying to reign it in now. Whether they can succeed or not is something we shall see , and there will need to be many changes before that happens.

I don't expect everyone to understand this , it's ok if you can't either.

But you can't make a system wide change overnight. It will be gradual with few steps at a time by first setting up a foundation and then building on top of it.

That's why I keep saying it's a good first step , hopefully they don't get distracted from this .

[_LotusPrime_]

also love when the nerf crowd mentions that my desires hurt DE's budget when in reality , if you nerf more people just leave , some/few peeps here dont realize that most people dont  have f* tons of time to grind and most of them have like 1 to 2 meta weapons at best , most people are actually not okay with the nerfs (not to mention when you nerf mods like blood rush that affects all categorry then say just nerfing kuva bramna and/or zarr , people get pissed more by those carpet bomb nerfs WAY more)  

im a half-vet/vet (whatever that word means anymore) i can re-grind to match similar power level but most dont have the tools to do that  , and most leave because of that because its genuinely frustrating experience , 

and how are you gonna draw in new players when your reputation slowly becomes ' the nerf game'  , if people know that their proggression will be stolen in some ways theyre not gonna be anticipated much to try out the new game , or that already wf players hesitate to recommend it with huge grind walls and nerfs  , 
(grind walls another topic but thats another aspect that new players might get scared of ,although mentioning about  it too much would be derailing from main point again) 

 

[_LotusPrime_]

7 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sheer force ? Sure i guess , wish they were actually a bit more direct and didn't bend over backward when whiners started crying.

 

shows evidence that youre not sincere in discussion and only here for posture :) 

we are giving you objective reasons as to why x is that way or y is that etc. , if all you have to say is 'cry' then youre discredited , good luck ranting on your own.

Holding your true self till you get to your breaking point and we see you for what you are , no more exposure is needed for you. 

I hate doing these personal based answers , i wish people could just normally discuss , but the nerf mob as you see cannot even hold themselves on a civil discussion . 

El Ridiculante'  

I cant imagine you trying make youself seem reasonable at first and couple people were taking you for serious , what a clown show , too much to ask for speaking like a respectable human bean.

[_LotusPrime_]

ah just for any argument , you just say the other side cries , why did you even wrote all those paragraphs if you were already gonna say 'cry' as a talking point @0_The_F00l

i mean seriously why you waste our and your time if youre not gonna say essentially anything , after all those pages . 

[0_The_F00l]

36 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

The bottom line is , vets are still forced to visit 5 -20 -50 levels content for fissures and players dont do evil out of spite to disrupts newbies gameplay , they visit those nodes because they have to if they wanna open relics.

and the second big point is , if DE is hell bent on nerfing stuff randomly time to time , there has to be a good incentive that makes single target have something , some utility function that current aoe's dont possess , otherwise players would just clump on whatevers left of DE's radar and use that till it gets nerfed too , because thats how players behave , for the better or worse.

Yes , better matchmaking is needed for matching suitable players of similar power levels.

And , Any recommendations to make single target have more utility ? Outside of turning them into AoE weapons?

22 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

also love when the nerf crowd mentions that my desires hurt DE's budget when in reality , if you nerf more people just leave , some/few peeps here dont realize that not most people dont  have f* tons of time to grind and most of them like 1 to 2 meta weapons at best , most people are actually not okay with the nerfs

im a half-vet/vet (whatever that word means anymore) i can regrind to match similar power level but most dont have the tools to do that  , and most leave because of that because its genuinely frustrating exoerience , 

and how are you gonna draw in new players when your reputation slowly becomes ' the nerf game'  , if people know that their proggression will be stolen in some ways theyre not gonna be anticipated much to try out the new game , or that already wf players hesitate to recommend it with huge grind walls and nerfs  , 
(grind walls another topic but thats another aspect that new players might get scared of ,although mentioning about  it too much would be derailing from main point again) 

 

I think DE can manage without players that are free loaders. They Can't please everyone and players leave for many reasons being bored is one of them.

And please , there have been more buffs to players than there have been nerfs over the years, it's downright wrong if you refer to warframe as the Nerf game.

Nerfs exist in all live service games , it's not exclusive to warframe. No need for fear mongering.

15 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

shows evidence that youre not sincere in discussion and only here for posture :) 

we are giving you objective reasons as to why x is that way or y is that etc. , if all you have to say is 'cry' then youre discredited , good luck ranting on your own.

Holding your true self till you get to your breaking point and we see you for what you are , no more exposure is needed for you. 

I hate doing these personal based answers , i wish people could just normally discuss , but the nerf mob as you see cannot even hold themselves on a civil discussion . 

El Ridiculante'  😆

What ? I am not sure how you got to that conclusion , could you elaborate why you think i am only posturing ?

And besides , i stand by what I said and DE should stick to their decisions as well 

There will always be whiners , and DE should ignore them.

11 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

ah just for any argument , you just say the other side cries , why did you even wrote all those paragraphs if you were already gonna say 'cry' as a talking point @0_The_F00l

i mean seriously why you waste our and your time if youre not gonna say essentially anything , after all those pages . 

You seem to have missed the point , my argument was not that people cry , people cry all the time any change happens from both sides of the discussion (pro change and anti change).

But DE should not stop just because there are cries , they should make their choice based on the actual merit of the discussion.

If you did not really get what the discussion is actually about and are going to be pedantic then i don't know if i actually should waste any more time on you. 

You are free to stay of course , everyone has the right to voice their opinion whether in disagreement or in agreement or a mix of both. 

Edit:

Notice that I didn't actually say which side was whining. It's you that assume i meant it only for those that don't want the Nerf. I wonder who is actually posturing.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb _LotusPrime_:

im a half-vet/vet (whatever that word means anymore) i can re-grind to match similar power level but most dont have the tools to do that  , and most leave because of that because its genuinely frustrating experience ,

I am sure you can provide a link that proves your statement? Or... oh wait, did you pull that completely out of your place where the sun rarely shines? Like with all the other "arguments" you provide?

[_LotusPrime_]

1 hour ago, Dunkelheit said:

I am sure you can provide a link that proves your statement? Or... oh wait, did you pull that completely out of your place where the sun rarely shines? Like with all the other "arguments" you provide?

You mean the times when you pretend to care about data and analysis , unlike the other times when you are with your nerfy nerf buddies and upvoting their posts and comments and not hammering down their lack of data on every bit of their talking points ? ,  in which case you care non of the PR stunts you throw at people you dont like their arguments ? 

you cant manipulate me , i already know your 'deal' , lets not be a hypocrite and expect things from your opponent that you dont do yourself ,  you would fail on your own standard.

Youre not entitled to ask me to put money to make a survey  when the thing i say is easily approvable , like i said before , more people care about mission completion and the loot they get compared to if they find aoe disruptive in fissure missons. 

also another personal attack argument , can one person from the nerf crowd can convince me that theyre reasonable human beings ? can you stay in a discussion without personal attacks or disrespectful posturing ? im responsible from what i have and do with my life , which has nothing to do with aoe and ammo discussion , youre discredited now too. 
also yes , i touch grass , prolly more than you do , for whatever it means and for the last bit ... how we can  know for sure that  youre describing yourself with a projection ? 

not that i would say it would make your argument nullified,  because it would be irrelevant , i would stick to the topic and try to be logical , which nerf crowds so far hasnt done yet  , interestingly , they dont stay on logical plane of discussion 

maybe there are normal human beings that want aoe nerfed outside this forum , but as of yet you 6 guys or so really making me grow some prejudices against your group . 
and maybe there are somewhere , some people that genuinely dont like aoe on their screen in pubs , but youre not genuine nor i dont think nerf crowd on wf forums really plays warframe at this point.

we can talk when you talk human.

thats the best i can give it to you ,  i am still giving fair responses to .... beings that dont deserve it , buts its in my code if you will , i dont go out my way to attack personal on a broad subject because i know that would be dum* and non-relevant , unfortunately i have to reinforce basic social norms here just so that discussion takes hold on a reasonable basis .
and of course what i do is unappreciated .

edit ; typos

[_LotusPrime_]

i said this before and im saying it again, if you want ' data ' for it without giving me money for the survey and maintenance of that project , i would say take note on the question of people's responses from in-game 4 squads youre in , your clan , allience chat , region chat , question chat , and you will r e l i a b l y witness that most people actually dont think aoe is that disruptive and that they care more about the loot and the mission than whatever wf forum nerf heads are concerned about. 

very reliable , your mileage may vary but thats what most people's stance is .  Dont let wf forum nerf heads warp your senses , dear reader. im saying it again , you can replicate this amateur survey yourself and you will get very similar results , people that detest aoe are a very very very niche portion of people . 

[_LotusPrime_]

and i encourage readers to actually (if they have free time) to sit through and read the posts from people from this thread that want nerfs (aoe nerf in this case)  in wf forums and pay attention to how they speak and make their arguments (or lack thereof)  , it should be pretty obvious .

i already gave too much attention , to beings that speak hot air and also are toxic , my work is done here , tis should suffice.

their ridiculousness are documented at this point.

[Tyreaus]

19 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

You mean the times when you pretend to care about data and analysis , unlike the other times when you are with your nerfy nerf buddies and upvoting their posts and comments and not hammering down their lack of data on every bit of their talking points ?

Hard data is not needed for everything. If you're making a factual claim, you ought to be supporting it, yes. If someone makes that sort of claim then yeah, you ought to be calling them out likewise. But if you're espousing an opinion or personal observation, like "I find this thing disruptive" or "The people I talk to say X", things get a little looser.

A claim like "most leave because of that because its genuinely frustrating experience" isn't written as either opinion or personal observation. It's a statement of fact. Maybe that's accidental in phrasing, but if so, you ought to be aware of it. Correct the phrasing, explain, provide proof, whatever else.

[0_The_F00l]

44 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

You mean the times when you pretend to care about data and analysis , unlike the other times when you are with your nerfy nerf buddies and upvoting their posts and comments and not hammering down their lack of data on every bit of their talking points ? ,  in which case you care non of the PR stunts you throw at people you dont like their arguments ? 

you cant manipulate me , i already know your 'deal' , lets not be a hypocrite and expect things from your opponent that you dont do yourself ,  you would fail on your own standard.

Youre not entitled to ask me to put money to make a survey  when the thing i say is easily approvable , like i said before , more people care about mission completion and the loot they get compared to if they find aoe disruptive in fissure missons. 

also another personal attack argument , can one person from the nerf crowd can convince me that theyre reasonable human beings ? can you stay in a discussion without personal attacks or disrespectful posturing ? im responsible from what i have and do with my life , which has nothing to do with aoe and ammo discussion , youre discredited now too. 
also yes , i touch grass , prolly more than you do , for whatever it means and for the last bit ... how we can  know for sure that  youre describing yourself with a projection ? 

not that i would say it would make your argument nullified,  because it would be irrelevant , i would stick to the topic and try to be logical , which nerf crowds so far hasnt done yet  , interestingly , they dont stay on logical plane of discussion 

maybe there are normal human beings that want aoe nerfed outside this forum , but as of yet you 6 guys or so really making me grow some prejudices against your group . 
and maybe there are somewhere , some people that genuinely dont like aoe on their screen in pubs , but youre not genuine nor i dont think nerf crowd on wf forums really plays warframe at this point.

we can talk when you talk human.

thats the best i can give it to you ,  i am still giving fair responses to .... beings that dont deserve it , buts its in my code if you will , i dont go out my way to attack personal on a broad subject because i know that would be dum* and non-relevant , unfortunately i have to reinforce basic social norms here just so that discussion takes hold on a reasonable basis .
and of course what i do is unappreciated .

edit ; typos

If you cannot substantiate your claims and tell others to "go look there" then you don't provide facts , you provide opinions.

If two people have differing opinions then there is no correct answer , only those that have the full facts can actually make any claims. And that would be DE in this instance.

Besides you can only survey those that still play the game , those that have quit cannot really tell their story cause they have already stopped engaging with the game ,

neither you nor i can say with certainty , the fact that you believe your opinions are fact is what doesnt convince me of your arguments. 

20 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

and i encourage readers to actually (if they have free time) to sit through and read the posts from people from this thread that want nerfs (aoe nerf in this case)  in wf forums and pay attention to how they speak and make their arguments (or lack thereof)  , it should be pretty obvious .

i already gave too much attention , to beings that speak hot air and also are toxic , my work is done here , tis should suffice.

their ridiculousness are documented at this point.

I agree , players should go through the various points made and make their own decisions ,

[Strider_Alpha]

Oh wow finally nerfing AOE, maybe this game will be worth playing again.

The game has just been "Point this direction, melt entire floor" for years.

The problem with more single-target weapons, is the game has been based around these OP AOE weapons for so long, they would need to change like all the things to make single target viable or any reason other than torturing yourself so you don't feel too OP (which feels really dumb to do)

Warframe. Ninjas don't need to aim.

Maybe they can change that, maybe not.

(I'm just still so underwhelmed with Angels of Zariman, I haven't played since it came out...)

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Strider_Alpha said:

Oh wow finally nerfing AOE, maybe this game will be worth playing again.

The game has just been "Point this direction, melt entire floor" for years.

The problem with more single-target weapons, is the game has been based around these OP AOE weapons for so long, they would need to change like all the things to make single target viable or any reason other than torturing yourself so you don't feel too OP (which feels really dumb to do)

Warframe. Ninjas don't need to aim.

Maybe they can change that, maybe not.

(I'm just still so underwhelmed with Angels of Zariman, I haven't played since it came out...)

That's the hope , this would be the first step towards a more robust system change.

[Strider_Alpha]

Boy, _LotusPrime_ seems toxic, unhinged, and full of hot air, for someone saying that about people who find AOE gameplay boring.

[_LotusPrime_]

19 minutes ago, Strider_Alpha said:

Oh wow finally nerfing AOE, maybe this game will be worth playing again.

The game has just been "Point this direction, melt entire floor" for years.

The problem with more single-target weapons, is the game has been based around these OP AOE weapons for so long, they would need to change like all the things to make single target viable or any reason other than torturing yourself so you don't feel too OP (which feels really dumb to do)

Warframe. Ninjas don't need to aim.

Maybe they can change that, maybe not.

(I'm just still so underwhelmed with Angels of Zariman, I haven't played since it came out...)

we can aim , the game doesnt hold you back from aiming , this is overt  sentimental speech 

and next time maybe you go after me personally , find your own words , dont exactly copy mines' , youre boring .

[Tyreaus]

3 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

we can aim , the game doesnt hold you from not aiming

Would you like to borrow my glasses cleaner? Because they said "Ninjas don't need to aim" (emphasis mine). Not that they couldn't.

[Angwah]

15 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That's the hope , this would be the first step towards a more robust system change.

Oh, I'm all for hoping, but we'll see, I guess. Until the devs get serious about addressing the underlying damage and modding system what meaningful change will there be?

All this will do is potentially shift the meta to other aoe weapons or back to melee. What will not change is that both on the receiving as well as dishing out side damage is either too high or too low.

 

[0_The_F00l]

21 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Oh, I'm all for hoping, but we'll see, I guess. Until the devs get serious about addressing the underlying damage and modding system what meaningful change will there be?

All this will do is potentially shift the meta to other aoe weapons or back to melee. What will not change is that both on the receiving as well as dishing out side damage is either too high or too low.

 

Exactly , we shall see , i have made a different topic specifically for Damage regularization as well.

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Angwah:

Oh, I'm all for hoping, but we'll see, I guess. Until the devs get serious about addressing the underlying damage and modding system what meaningful change will there be?

All this will do is potentially shift the meta to other aoe weapons or back to melee. What will not change is that both on the receiving as well as dishing out side damage is either too high or too low.

 

instead of "meta" from a magical world in a parallel universe, they should have taken care of balance and optimized the game for new players...
because here everything happens at a snail's pace and i only fight against the following opponents: boredom and sleep.

[Angwah]

2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

instead of "meta" from a magical world in a parallel universe, they should have taken care of balance and optimized the game for new players...
because here everything happens at a snail's pace and i only fight against the following opponents: boredom and sleep.

Not quite sure what the point is you are trying to make, but yes, obviously balance matters? It doesn't even need to be good, let alone perfect, but it should at least not break down like it does.

Newer players however are the least affected by this however. Sure, the game explains itself badly and the old content could use some streamlining and cleaning up, but there was a game that was engaging and at certain points in the progression even hard. Ok, that is, if you play solo, but public turning it into a walking simulator has been the case for ages. As for the complaints of the game being too grindy, RNG being what it is, some grinds can definitely be very frustrating but taken as a whole not that many were unreasonable, especially since, you know, there was still a game to be played and most importantly, progress to be made.

In my opinion, and it is just that, tastes differ, the boredom and tedium come later, when you have progressed beyond what WF's system can cope with. At some point you can sleepwalk through all content the game can throw at you without any real engagement, and if they let you use your full kit, there can never ever be challenging content again. Yay, the game is beaten. You can still collect whatever new stuff is released and/or to follow the story when they drop new content.

Anyway, I don't believe it is intended that when you reach the point where the progress shifts from vertical to horizontal, when engaging and challenging gameplay becomes more important than ever, it all but ceases to exist. I might be wrong, but I am pretty damn sure that good gameplay is the only way to keep people around when all that remains is sidegrades.

So, if by 'balancing and optimizing the game for new players because everything happens at a snail's pace' you mean making sure players reach that point sooner, no, I don't think that is the way to go.

 

[Digressive]

Locking thread as the update is live and there is a subforum for this discussion now:

https://forums.warframe.com/forum/1794-area-of-effect-aoe-weapon-changes-feedback/