Warframe Powers And Mechanics Post U14

[LascarCapable]

I can confirm that increased punch through no longer generates additional shots. The damage bonuses are no longer limited to hitscan weapons, energy projectile weapons, and the Drakgoon. Firing through additional shields will cause the damage bonuses to stack (additive for the electricity damage, and multiplicative for the critical damage).

 

I have some doubts about it.

 

I've tried with my dread, and the damage were quite wonky. Is it possible to have some screens about it ? Maybe it's just me.

[PsycloneM]

Sure. In the following examples I'm using a Dread with +105% damage from Serration, +27% damage from Rifle Amp, +150% corrosive damage, and 4.4x critical damage.

 

No shield:

[ ( 10 + 10 + 180 x 1.25 ) + 200 x 1.5 ] x ( 1 + 1.05 + 0.27 ) x 4.4 = 5563

 

1 shield:

[ ( 10 + 10 + 180 x 1.25 ) + 200 x ( 1.5 + 0.5 ) ] x ( 1 + 1.05 + 0.27 ) x 4.4 x 2 = 13168

 

4 shields:

[ ( 10 + 10 + 180 x 1.25 ) + 200 x ( 1.5 + 2 ) ] x ( 1 + 1.05 + 0.27 ) x 4.4 x 16 = 154344

[LascarCapable]

Well, that's some huge numbers.

 

Thanks a lot. :)

[Ttariel]

Please dont remove this DE

[Jeerome0406]

Annnnd its gone.

[PsycloneM]

With the most recent update, damage stacking with multiple shields has not completely disappeared:

 

- Firing a projectile weapon through multiple shields will still produce the additive electricity damage bonus. I think this is fine, as stacking shields will only increase the damage output linearly as opposed to exponentially.

 

- Firing a hitscan weapon through multiple shields will produce both the additive electricity damage bonus and the multiplicative critical damage bonus.

 

- Firing a hitscan weapon with increased punch through will still increase the chance of firing an additional shot.

 

 

Here are some examples:

 

Lanka: (+132% damage, +120% gas damage, 3.3x critical damage)

 

1 shield:

250 x ( 1 + 1.32 ) x ( 1 + 1.2 x 1.75 + 0.5 ) x 3.3 x 2 = 13780

 

2 shields:

250 x ( 1 + 1.32 ) x ( 1 + 1.2 x 1.75 + 1 ) x 3.3 x 2 = 15694

 

3 shields:

250 x ( 1 + 1.32 ) x ( 1 + 1.2 x 1.75 + 1.5 ) x 3.3 x 2 = 17608

 

Vectis: (+132% damage, +90% heat damage, 1.4x damage from Charged Chamber, 4.4x critical damage)

 

1 shield:

[ ( 70 + 61.25 + 43.75 x 1.25 ) + 175 x ( 0.9 x 1.25 + 0.5 ) ] x ( 1 + 1.32 ) x 1.4 x 4.4 x 2 = 13442

 

2 shields:

[ ( 70 + 61.25 + 43.75 x 1.25 ) + 175 x ( 0.9 x 1.25 + 1 ) ] x ( 1 + 1.32 ) x 1.4 x 4.4 x 4 = 31887

 

3 shields:

[ ( 70 + 61.25 + 43.75 x 1.25 ) + 175 x ( 0.9 x 1.25 + 1.5 ) ] x ( 1 + 1.32 ) x 1.4 x 4.4 x 8 = 73778

 

While the Vectis calculations are not as accurate as the Lanka calculations (most likely due to internal rounding I'm not accounting for), the exponential trend should be apparent.

[DeadlyBard676]

do you plan on doing Hydroid?

[PsycloneM]

do you plan on doing Hydroid?

 

The information that I gather (with the exception of range values) goes directly to the wiki now. Hydroid and Mirage are mostly complete. Unfortunately, I haven't touched any of the warframe posts here since the beginning of summer, and some posts are terribly outdated. I'll eventually have a Hydroid and Mirage post with visual proof to confirm the information I've added to the wiki (such has the magnetic damage portion of Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm, or the damage of Mirage's Prism depending on environmental lighting).

 

 

For now, I wanted to test something that's frequently mentioned whenever prime warframes and improved base stats are discussed:

 

Does Excalibur Prime have a higher shield regeneration rate than Excalibur assuming both warframes have the same maximum shield capacity?

 

To test this, I measured the amount of time it takes each warframe's shields to fully recharge after being completely removed. Similar to the sprint speed tests, I'm using QuickTime to record the time of any frame to the nearest hundredth. In these trials, both warframes have a shield capacity of 300. Here are the results:

 

 

Excalibur Prime

 

Excalibur

 

 

Both warframes take roughly 10 seconds for their shields to completely recharge. This time can also be predicted using Pwnatron's datamined formula for shield regeneration: ( max shield x 0.05 + 15 ) x ( 1 + shield recharge mod ).

 

( 300 x 0.05 + 15 ) x ( 1 + 0 ) = 30 shields per second. With 300 shields, it would take 300 / 30 = 10 seconds for their shields to completely recharge—as observed. So to conclude:

 

Excalibur Prime has the same base shield regeneration rate as Excalibur.

 

 

Just like any other warframe, Excalibur Prime's shield regeneration rate obeys the datamined formula. Each warframe's shield regeneration rate depends on the warframe's maximum shield capacity and equipped shield recharge mods. Hopefully we can lay that myth to rest now.

[Monolake]

 

Does Excalibur Prime have a higher shield regeneration rate than Excalibur assuming both warframes have the same maximum shield capacity?

 

 

[...]

 

Both warframes take roughly 10 seconds for their shields to completely recharge. This time can also be predicted using Pwnatron's datamined formula for shield regeneration: ( max shield x 0.05 + 15 ) x ( 1 + shield recharge mod ).

 

( 300 x 0.05 + 15 ) x ( 1 + 0 ) = 30 shields per second. With 300 shields, it would take 300 / 30 = 10 seconds for their shields to completely recharge—as observed. So to conclude:

 

Excalibur Prime has the same base shield regeneration rate as Excalibur.

 

 

Just like any other warframe, Excalibur Prime's shield regeneration rate obeys the datamined formula. Each warframe's shield regeneration rate depends on the warframe's maximum shield capacity and equipped shield recharge mods. Hopefully we can lay that myth to rest now.

damn

[PsycloneM]

The difficulty I face now is trying to convince a single contributor of the wiki that my observations are valid. Every time I make an edit to Excalibur Prime's page regarding the "higher shield recharge rate" statement, my changes are almost immediately undone. At any rate, I'm going to see if I can get a developer response to truly close this debate.

[RealPandemonium]

The difficulty I face now is trying to convince a single contributor of the wiki that my observations are valid. Every time I make an edit to Excalibur Prime's page regarding the "higher shield recharge rate" statement, my changes are almost immediately undone. At any rate, I'm going to see if I can get a developer response to truly close this debate.

Have you tried appealing to an administrator?  (I assume the answer is yes.)  Voqualin seems reasonable.  

Edited August 22, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[http404error]

The difficulty I face now is trying to convince a single contributor of the wiki that my observations are valid. Every time I make an edit to Excalibur Prime's page regarding the "higher shield recharge rate" statement, my changes are almost immediately undone. At any rate, I'm going to see if I can get a developer response to truly close this debate.

 

I have been telling people this for ages! I can't believe it's still going around and has such staunch support on the wiki that it's even been added to Rhino Prime's page (which is now locked, probably because of that).

[PsycloneM]

I have been telling people this for ages! I can't believe it's still going around and has such staunch support on the wiki that it's even been added to Rhino Prime's page (which is now locked, probably because of that).

 

Great. It's on Rhino Prime's page, too.

 

Pwnatron was the one of the first to confirm with datamining that Excalibur Prime does not have a higher shield recharge rate. Here's his thread, along with the reply. This was all done over a year ago. Even then, people have been spreading the original rumor around like wildfire; it appears to be widely-accepted among a significant number of players, and information that proves otherwise goes unnoticed.

 

The argument that I'm seeing people use is that yes, Excalibur Prime does indeed have a higher shield recharge rate, but it's so slight that it's not noticeable in-game—a stat boost with no effect, but it's still there. As far as the actual increase goes, percentages that I've seen people claim are on the order of 10%.

 

A higher shield recharge rate, unless we're talking about an increase on the order of 0.1%, would indeed be noticeable. As an example, this outdated wikia shows that Excalibur Prime has a shield recharge rate of 22.5 shields per second versus Excalibur's 20 shields per second—a 12.5% increase. If these values were accurate (which they're not), Excalibur and Excalibur Prime with 300 shields would take 15 seconds and ~13.33 seconds to fully recharge respectively. That time difference would be noticeable.

 

Excalibur and Excalibur Prime's actual recharge rate is theorized and observed to be 30 shields per second with a 300 shield capacity. Let's say Excalibur Prime had a slight shield recharge boost, say 5%. His new shield recharge rate would be 31.5 shields per second, and would take ~9.52 seconds compared to Excalibur's 10 seconds for his shields to fully recharge. With a 2.5% boost, it would take ~9.76 seconds. With a 1.25% boost, ~9.88 seconds. All of these time differences would still be noticeable.

 

So unless Excalibur Prime has a shield recharge rate that's ~0.1% higher (which would be undetectable using my methods), Excalibur Prime's shield charge rate is no different from that of Excalibur. Not only is 0.1% much smaller than the commonly-accepted ~10% increase, I don't see the purpose of including such a minuscule stat boost. I'm not buying that argument.

 

Hopefully we can get developer confirmation in the coming days.

[RealPandemonium]

I asked Voqualin and he fixed the Excalibur Prime article.  I removed it from the Rhino Prime article as well.  Cheers!

[Helter]

Excalibur and Excalibur Prime's actual recharge rate is theorized and observed to be 30 shields per second with a 300 shield capacity. Let's say Excalibur Prime had a slight shield recharge boost, say 5%. His new shield recharge rate would be 31.5 shields per second, and would take ~9.52 seconds compared to Excalibur's 10 seconds for his shields to fully recharge. With a 2.5% boost, it would take ~9.76 seconds. With a 1.25% boost, ~9.88 seconds. All of these time differences would still be noticeable.

 

So unless Excalibur Prime has a shield recharge rate that's ~0.1% higher (which would be undetectable using my methods), Excalibur Prime's shield charge rate is no different from that of Excalibur. Not only is 0.1% much smaller than the commonly-accepted ~10% increase, I don't see the purpose of including such a minuscule stat boost. I'm not buying that argument.

 

Hopefully we can get developer confirmation in the coming days.

Don't need dev confirmation, just take some 60fps video with Fraps or whatever and do some frame counting.

 

I just did exactly that, and guess what? To what should be the surprise of no one, Excal Prime has the same recharge speed as everyone else. Excal Prime with 740 shields has an expected 52/sec recharge rate based on the datamined formula, and that's exactly what I observed based on frame-by-frame analysis.

 

I'm honestly surprised this rumor has persisted as long as it has given the ease of verification.

[PsycloneM]

I asked Voqualin and he fixed the Excalibur Prime article.  I removed it from the Rhino Prime article as well.  Cheers!

 

Ah, thank you. I was going to deal with it later during the week, so I appreciate you going out of your way to get in touch with him.

 

 

Don't need dev confirmation, just take some 60fps video with Fraps or whatever and do some frame counting.

 

I did exactly this as well, and the data is on the previous page. The reason why I've been trying to appeal to the devs is that contributors on the wiki (as well as users on the forums) have made me realize that there are a significant number of people that believe the rumor. In the case of one particular contributor, he/she was willing to defend the rumor in light of evidence pointing to the contrary. My edits to Excalibur Prime's page were undone several times. After he/she claimed that the devs mentioned Excalibur Prime's higher shield recharge rate on a devstream (with no source), I wanted to get DE's perspective on the matter.

 

I am genuinely curious about the origins of the rumor though. Thanks for your observations. It's nice to have another independent source for confirmation.

Edited August 26, 2014 by PsycloneM

[RSITH]

^^

[Bibliothekar]

A question regarding Ash: Since Blade Storm's damage is affected by your melee counter (and thus, your combo multiplier) - is it also affected by Steel Charge?

 

/e: Decided to give Nvidia's Shadowplay a try and ran the test myself.

 

Test setup

Warframe: Ash (duh)

Mods: all four abilities, Blade Storm maxed, Intensify maxed, nothing else

Melee weapon: Dragon Nikana (only for quick attacks and to open boxes)

Mission: Terminus (Mercury); Enemies: Lancer [3-4], Trooper [3-4], Butcher [3-4], occasional Eximus

 

Test 1

Aura: Energy Siphon maxed

Damage dealt: 2600 Slash, 3900 Slash

 

Test 2

Aura: Steel Charge maxed

Damage dealt: 2600 Slash, 3900 Slash (and 1560 Slash on a Butcher Eximus)

 

Conclusion: Steel Charge does not affect the damage dealt by Blade Storm.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[Helter]

 

I am genuinely curious about the origins of the rumor though. Thanks for your observations. It's nice to have another independent source for confirmation.

If I recall correctly, it stems from waaaay back in closed beta with the old mod UI. Mods that worked on a given stat would also show the base value for that stat when slotted (other mods slotted didn't change what was shown in the UI, to the annoyance of many). At the time, Excalibur Prime did indeed show a value of 22.5. The mod system and a lot of other things were changed/added when the game went to open beta (a notable addition being basic stat progression based on frame level), but the outdated information stuck around on the wiki. By the time folks got to working out various game mechanics based on empirical testing and the occasional bit of datamining, I think it had kind of gotten stuck in the collective unconscious.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

As a volt-lover and father who has limited playing time, this thread is fantastic for frame research! Thank you so much!

[MaxAltair]

Interesting post with all this analisys. Btw where i can check the base damage of mobs? Wonder it isnt on the wiki

[http404error]

I don't think the enemy base damage has been known at any point in time, actually. Even Pwnatron's old tables don't have that info.

Edited January 9, 2015 by http404error