Expect swarms of "PLZ NERF X DUVIRI ENEMY/BOSS" when the update releases

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

17 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

Tolerance isn't only expressed in silence: I can voice my opinion against yours, debate you for hours, and still acknowledge that you are entitled to believe whatever you want.

There is no problem with this. We are on the same page. 

17 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I find arguments and discussions fun, and I like Warframe, which is why I'm frequently on the Warframe forums, a place where arguments/discussions about Warframe happen. I'll openly disagree on any topic I find interesting, and I'll argue back and forth with people. If I don't want to do that anymore, I can leave any time, and I lose no sleep over the people I didn't convince. To me, that's tolerance, more so than the "let people believe what they want" type of tolerance.

That's your opinion about tolerance. But THAT IS NOT TOLERANCE. 

These are the same point in two different forms. You're agreeing with one form, and disagreeing with another. 

17 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Tolerance is letting other people have their ways freely.

That's one way of being tolerant, but tolerance is just the general practice of allowing ideas you dislike to exist. If I was intolerant, I would call for bans, harass people, or straight up leave the platform because I didn't like people's opinions. Considering that all I do is casually argue with people, in the place where people argue, that seems pretty tolerant to me.

19 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

This is not a university, this is not a discipline, this is not a forum for education. Some people have opinions, that's what we have. What I will vehemently go against is the douchebag behavior of the hive mentality. These users attacks others because they do not share the general vision. 

It's a video game forum. Discussions about a video game happen here. Those discussions include arguments. If people want to argue with people they disagree with, they're allowed to (again, as long as they follow forum guidelines).

23 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

There is something called persuasion and how you say things without the need to do impose a point of view.

If I'm trying to persuade someone, I am attempting to impose my view on them because I believe my view is better than theirs. I want the person to believe what I believe. What you are describing is just stating an opinion, not persuasion.

41 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

"wow, I didn't know that beyond: two souls was a souls-like."

This is the toxic attitude I talk about. This is clean mockery. Yes there are ways of saying the same in a different tone. There is a way to EDUCATE people if they are equivocated. If you or anyone wants to correct another user at least use some degree of PEDAGOGY. 

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

If two people want to argue about Warframe, then they should be allowed to argue however they want, so long as they follow the platform's guidelines. Trying to enforce your own conversational rules on other people is, in my humble opinion, a bad idea.

I am not imposing ANY rule in the conversation. You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. 

I am pointing out that many users here like in any other community are TOXIC and VITRIOLIC. This community has the same demons too like any other community out there. I am tired of the hypocritic behavior of some users when they claim that Warframe community is the less toxic one. 

Yes, DE made the rules clear and made the platform guidelines very explicit but you know more than anyone else what I am talking about here. Sorry but I don't roll with douchebaggery of some users. I'm going to make the call. 

You know your game, I know mine. You DO HAVE good formal reasons but I do have my reasons why I intervene this way. I'm tired that people here try to write off other users because they don't think alike. 

Sorry but with that type of behaviorism I disagree. 

I think your view of "toxicity" is pretty ridiculous, but maybe we just have different upbringings. I've been around some pretty toxic communities, so it feels silly to call Warframe's community toxic. Are people sometimes mean or unhelpful? Sure. Do they complain a lot? Absolutely. Are they toxic? No.

I'd advise you to not try to conversation-police people, as that'd just be annoying without accomplishing anything, but do what you want (follow guidelines ofc).

[Felsagger]

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

These are the same point in two different forms. You're agreeing with one form, and disagreeing with another. 

Well, It's my lack of coffee. Looks like my brain yielded. I got too tired to notice that redundancy. 

heh. 

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

That's one way of being tolerant, but tolerance is just the general practice of allowing ideas you dislike to exist. If I was intolerant, I would call for bans, harass people, or straight up leave the platform because I didn't like people's opinions. Considering that all I do is casually argue with people, in the place where people argue, that seems pretty tolerant to me.

True. 

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

It's a video game forum. Discussions about a video game happen here. Those discussions include arguments. If people want to argue with people they disagree with, they're allowed to (again, as long as they follow forum guidelines).

True. 

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

If I'm trying to persuade someone, I am attempting to impose my view on them because I believe my view is better than theirs. I want the person to believe what I believe. What you are describing is just stating an opinion, not persuasion.

We are using different meanings of the word persuasion. Maybe the word convince may do a better job. 

I use the word persuasion as an act of convincing without the use of force. 

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I think your view of "toxicity" is pretty ridiculous

Not it's not. 

I think I've seen enough here to talk about it. It's a problem that permeates in the forums. Obviously insults, personal mockery and the obvious faults are excluded due to guide conducts but the attitude is exactly the same like any other community. 

In simple words, we are not special. Sorry. 

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

, but maybe we just have different upbringings. I've been around some pretty toxic communities, so it feels silly to call Warframe's community toxic. Are people sometimes mean or unhelpful? Sure. Do they complain a lot? Absolutely. Are they toxic? No.

True a complainer is not a toxic individual. However toxicity starts when one user mocks the other, when there is a personal attack to him that has no relation with the subject. Sarcasm counts as toxicity. 

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

I'd advise you to not try to conversation-police people, as that'd just be annoying without accomplishing anything, but do what you want (follow guidelines ofc).

Policing never works and never will but that case made me snap. I can't help it.

[Terroriced]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Felsagger:

I think I've seen enough here to talk about it. It's a problem that permeates in the forums. Obviously insults, personal mockery and the obvious faults are excluded due to guide conducts but the attitude is exactly the same like any other community. 

In simple words, we are not special. Sorry. 

 

I have to agree on that one. On the one hand, classic toxicity that is extremely offensive and thereby obvious, like you would know it from pvp games, is very rare in Warframe.

It does almost not exist outside of Conclave and that community loses players to permabans left and right. (I still have high respect for the Conclave players that concentrate on the game and behave maturely in chat. But the second biggest Conclave discord server is a horrible cesspit of racism and antisemitism that would get the entirety of Conclave deleted if exposed.)

On the other hand the Warframe forums are full of people who openly display their disdain either for each other or the developers. Here is an example from this thread:

 

Am 14.4.2023 um 02:13 schrieb (XBOX)CaligulaTwily:

Tbh if those players can't *figure those things out themselves* I dont want them playing Warframe, S#&$ting up the public squads and leeching. It'd be better for everyone overall, if DE ignored those brainless players and didn't to cater to them, dragging the rest of the game down. Brainless players like that aren't the plat buying type 

 

Statements like this read like they were written as an ironic joke but they are not and that is unsettling to me. The amount of degradation towards others is just unreal.

And I see that a lot on the forums. There is another certain individual who is very talented at argumentation and they use their talent to write a wall of text full of good arguments just to top it off with a massive personal insult. All that talent, energy and effort just to put someone down.

The Warframe community is not special, no.

[Felsagger]

14 minutes ago, Terroriced said:

I have to agree on that one. On the one hand, classic toxicity that is extremely offensive and thereby obvious, like you would know it from pvp games, is very rare in Warframe.

It does almost not exist outside of Conclave and that community loses players to permabans left and right. (I still have high respect for the Conclave players that concentrate on the game and behave maturely in chat. But the second biggest Conclave discord server is a horrible cesspit of racism and antisemitism that would get the entirety of Conclave deleted if exposed.)

On the other hand the Warframe forums are full of people who openly display their disdain either for each other or the developers. Here is an example from this thread:

Statements like this read like they were written as an ironic joke but they are not and that is unsettling to me. The amount of degradation towards others is just unreal.

And I see that a lot on the forums. There is another certain individual who is very talented at argumentation and they use their talent to write a wall of text full of good arguments just to top it off with a massive personal insult. All that talent, energy and effort just to put someone down.

The Warframe community is not special, no.

Thank you for making this statement. 

I think this behavior has to end, that's why I snapped. If people wants to throw shades to the game, let them. If people disagree with DE's performance let them. Many of these critiques doesn't come out of the blue. 

Yes, somehow I misplace words like every other human being but I am very aggressive when some sort of injustice is committed towards members who are expressing their opinion. Of course, people may like the game and be very critical about it. I am an example of that. People can be in direct opposition with DE without faulting DE's employees respects, talking them down in a personal level or insulting them directly. I disagree with that behavior too. It's toxic, it's unacceptable, period. 

They are human beings that work for their salary. DE's human integrity is not in question here. I will be the first who point out if someone threatens or insult any DE member here. However our critique IS the game. Our critique is about DE's decisions that they perform about the game. Critical thinking is a most if a developer wants to improve the product. In other autocratic, dictatorial, oligarchic societies such critiques are simply censured. 

I know about these lurker accounts and employees account that roam these places. Of course they have EVERY right to use alternate accounts, bring any number of them and carry the conduct guides. I don't have any problem with that. However if we stop critical thinking then the game doesn't improve. If we stop critical thinking the game goes round in circles like we have now with lots of content islands. If we stop critical thinking then what is the point of conversing anyway. 

It's that simple. 

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

1 hour ago, Terroriced said:

 

I have to agree on that one. On the one hand, classic toxicity that is extremely offensive and thereby obvious, like you would know it from pvp games, is very rare in Warframe.

It does almost not exist outside of Conclave and that community loses players to permabans left and right. (I still have high respect for the Conclave players that concentrate on the game and behave maturely in chat. But the second biggest Conclave discord server is a horrible cesspit of racism and antisemitism that would get the entirety of Conclave deleted if exposed.)

On the other hand the Warframe forums are full of people who openly display their disdain either for each other or the developers. Here is an example from this thread:

 

 

Statements like this read like they were written as an ironic joke but they are not and that is unsettling to me. The amount of degradation towards others is just unreal.

And I see that a lot on the forums. There is another certain individual who is very talented at argumentation and they use their talent to write a wall of text full of good arguments just to top it off with a massive personal insult. All that talent, energy and effort just to put someone down.

The Warframe community is not special, no.

I wasn't that mean or nasty if players ignore every onscreen promp or text, don't take the time to investigate the Codex and various things there, ignore audio transmissions, don't know where their healthbar is and legitimately cannot figure it out themselves, they likely cannot figure out *where to buy plat* or even how to get money or employment. DE should not cater to those types of players, they don't buy plat.

I don't like playing with, absolutely clueless Tenno, and I'm sure it's not fun or fulfilling trying to develop a game with a certain vision in mind but be like "wait, we can't actually do that, a percentage of players wouldnt get it" I actually wanna see some cool bigbrain things that DE could make but, Archons are gonna be the Biggest Baddest thing that DE is ever gonna make, everything else will just be simpler or easier. 

[Terroriced]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)CaligulaTwily:

players ignore every onscreen promp or text, don't take the time to investigate the Codex and various things there, ignore audio transmissions, don't know where their healthbar is and legitimately cannot figure it out themselves,

 

All of this is true.

 

vor 34 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)CaligulaTwily:

they likely cannot figure out *where to buy plat* or even how to get money or employment. DE should not cater to those types of players, they don't buy plat.

 

And yet the game is in large parts build around exactly those type of players who cant figure things out and will just throw money at each problem.

New player wants new weapons? There is a plat price on it.

More mod capacity? Buy a reactor / catalyst with plat.

No patience to wait for build times? Rush with plat.

Need more resources to build an item, buy them in the market. I could go on for every single thing a player might need. Endo, credits, mods... the market has it all.

 

What do you think where all the 'Warframe = pay to win' allegations come from?

Its from players who could not figure out how to get stuff for free, saw the plat prices on everything and quit.

Those who dont quit are a major pillar for the Warframe monetization model. They buy a lot of plat.

 

vor 44 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)CaligulaTwily:

I don't like playing with, absolutely clueless Tenno, and I'm sure it's not fun or fulfilling trying to develop a game with a certain vision in mind but be like "wait, we can't actually do that, a percentage of players wouldnt get it" I actually wanna see some cool bigbrain things that DE could make but, Archons are gonna be the Biggest Baddest thing that DE is ever gonna make, everything else will just be simpler or easier. 

 

Archons? The big bad bullet sponges of death? Better wait until Orowyrms are released.

The reason we dont see much more ingenious boss fights is that they break with each new update. That means a lot of maintenance for DE.

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

1 minute ago, Terroriced said:

 

All of this is true.

 

 

And yet the game is in large parts build around exactly those type of players who cant figure things out and will just throw money at each problem.

New player wants new weapons? There is a plat price on it.

More mod capacity? Buy a reactor / catalyst with plat.

No patience to wait for build times? Rush with plat.

Need more resources to build an item, buy them in the market. I could go on for every single thing a player might need. Endo, credits, mods... the market has it all.

 

What do you think where all the 'Warframe = pay to win' allegations come from?

Its from players who could not figure out how to get stuff for free, saw the plat prices on everything and quit.

Those who dont quit are a major pillar for the Warframe monetization model. They buy a lot of plat.

 

 

Archons? The big bad bullet sponges of death? Better wait until Orowyrms are released.

The reason we dont see much more ingenious boss fights is that they break with each new update. That means a lot of maintenance for DE.

I meant Archons during the New War, timing and using the different Drifter abilities, dodging. Not the entire bullet spongeyness but the, slight rock/paper/scissors of Drifter abilities vs Archon abilities. Instead of normal WF gameplay of rock/paper made of glass/scissors made of glass. Like I don't want anything *spongier* than the Archons, that just about tested my patience with time to kill. But I liked the mechanics. Warframe vs Archons is just, bullet sponge and no mechanics, even worse.

 

Also, that kinda proves my point too. Clueless players couldn't figure out the game, accuse it of being Pay to Win, then leave. But you say (the same?) new players can't figure things out and spend plat on weapons and catalysts/reactors (they won't have enough mods to use the catalysts/reactor) and rushing items?

Like, if a new player is *already the type* to spend 10 bucks on plat for a gun immediately they're also likely the type to *actually investigate the game*, see what they just spent that 10 bucks on. A player that sticks around long enough is also likely to buy plat.

A new player that immediately says "ouch, this is pay to win" without investigating the game, I cannot think of a simplification of the game that those players would be like "wow this isn't totally pay to win" while also encouraging sales. Unless the market is hidden in the codex or Leverian or something ridiculous, and that isn't a "pls nerf". Make the game any simpler, either all the baddies are bulletsponges that deal no damage or baddies die in one hit before having chance to deal damage (fighting cardboard cutouts). I don't like that. 

 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 6 horas, Felsagger dijo:

"wow, I didn't know that beyond: two souls was a souls-like."

This is the toxic attitude I talk about. This is clean mockery. Yes there are ways of saying the same in a different tone. There is a way to EDUCATE people if they are equivocated. If you or anyone wants to correct another user at least use some degree of PEDAGOGY. 

do you think that is toxic? and your derogatory comments? the one that you superimpose your opinion on others? that you treat your words as irrefutable facts? You should get off that huge cloud of self-centeredness in which you are

[Felsagger]

The problem DE has is fundamental in nature due to the GAAS f2p nature of their medium. 

DE don't know how to make boss fights worthy of replay value. Too many changing variables takes place in each update due to the jumping nature of the meta. DE forces entries on nerfs because DE needs to sell new meta styles into the mix. 

Imagine taking full control where parameters are under a random itinerary. Imagine if such parameters are sustained only two months while the next batch of items throws away the old preferred style. 

Would that imply a good design on the bosses? It's quite alarming the situation that DE is in. They, themselves, chose this path of game design. It's a no brainer why the boss fights sucks deep ass this hard. How is even possible to plug a hard sweaty contest against four meta players in a boss fight when the boss is dumber than a flea. 

I don't even dare ask DE provide boss fights at the stature of From Software. I would be deeply disingenuous and a complete jackass if I expect a fraction of it in this game. For starters, the community here is allergic to real mechanical skill game play challenge and psychomotor muscle dexterity. Imagine having a Malenia dance difficulty here. 

Archons are a complete joke in comparison to any type of difficulty a standard veteran Dark Soul player could encounter. This is why I don't expect Warframe be a boss fight style game. If I want an approach of such nature then Horizon Forbidden West, such as Burning Shores, Sekiro or Bloodborne could fit such bill.  

Warframe IS NOT a challenge based game. Never was. Warframe is aimed at the worst skilled based power fantasy players. That is DE's target market for better or worse. 

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

do you think that is toxic? and your derogatory comments? the one that you superimpose your opinion on others? that you treat your words as irrefutable facts? You should get off that huge cloud of self-centeredness in which you are

 

Derogatory comments? You don't even know what is derogatory. You haven't felt real heat if you find my comments derogatory. 

My words are NOT fact. You decide that. The reader decides that. I can't decide that. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 54 minutos, Felsagger dijo:

 

Derogatory comments? You don't even know what is derogatory. You haven't felt real heat if you find my comments derogatory. 

My words are NOT fact. You decide that. The reader decides that. I can't decide that. 

and you have no idea what toxicity is.

 

 

 

[Felsagger]

6 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

and you have no idea what toxicity is.

 

I play a lot Call of Duty. Go ahead lecture me, please. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 minuto, Felsagger dijo:

 

I play a lot Call of Duty. Go ahead lecture me, please. 

Well, I see where your self-centered comments come from.

[Felsagger]

16 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Well, I see where your self-centered comments come from.

How I handle myself, is my business, first of all. But thank you for proving my point splendidly with just one line. 

 

The bait game I selected worked perfectly. You exemplified toxicity in this line alone. Case closed. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 2 minutos, Felsagger dijo:

How I handle myself, is my business, first of all. But thank you for proving my point splendidly with just one line. 

 

The bait game I selected worked perfectly. You exemplified toxicity in this line alone. Case closed. 

is that toxicity? seriously? Have you even read your comments? Those big threads where you criticize everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view?

[Felsagger]

25 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

is that toxicity? seriously? Have you even read your comments? Those big threads where you criticize everyone who doesn't agree with your point of view?

I will NOT lecture you because that is not my job. You are absolutely right on that. 

I'm going to make a simple observation. Warframe community thinks that they are better, some members of course, than any other community out there for example Fortnite or Call of Duty franchise. They think so high of themselves that sees CoD and Elden Ring community as savages and morons when their behavior IS identically the same WITHOUT the racial slurs, insults and derogatory adjectives and names. 

It's the attitude. You do have good points and you do have good arguments but you mock people who thinks different than you. You harp on their faults of logic and harp on their mishaps. This is the toxicity I'm speaking about. I don't blame you for it. This is THE STANDARD behavior around here. It's branded as normal against people who do not applaud DE's rehearsals. 

See where I'm heading with this? If you cut off people for their opinion, you cut the possibility for this game to improve. The component of A GAAS game are the users and their game play behavior. We critique some decisions because such decisions affects the game. 

See? 

On the topic: If DE wants to emulate other games, they are free to do so. If they want to imitate, they are free to do so. Is this marketing? Yes. Controversy sells, controversy rattles the box and sparks interest, positive or negative. It doesn't matter. 

However if we are heading towards any form of game play, could be, Elden Ring or any other game, at least do such game play right. The enemies are idle waiting to be clubbed. The enemies throws away immersion because they are not damaging the player in an engaging battle or fight. 

If you are slow attacking and reacting in Chivalry or any other pvp against an aggressive team, they eat you alive. This is why many of the players here can't go out and have a trip in Call of Duty Modern Warfare or Battlefield 2042. The other side of the spectrum are humans with skills. It's a JUDGMENT game all the the time. In Warframe the game forgives. 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

 

hace 6 minutos, Felsagger dijo:

It's the attitude. You do have good points and you do have good arguments but you mock people who thinks different than you. You harp on their faults of logic and harp on their mishaps. This is the toxicity I'm speaking about. I don't blame you for it. This is THE STANDARD behavior around here. It's branded as normal against people who do not applaud DE's rehearsals.

I certainly use sarcasm a lot in my comments (perhaps I should be more direct and leave out the sarcasm), but you also make too much fun of people here, especially your last comment of:
 "How dare you use common sense?"

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

 

I certainly use sarcasm a lot in my comments (perhaps I should be more direct and leave out the sarcasm), but you also make too much fun of people here, especially your last comment of:
 "How dare you use common sense?"

 

 

 There is a difference between how I write my comments and how you write yours.  I don't aim those words to ANY member in particular. 

See the difference? 

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 6 minutos, Felsagger dijo:

 There is a difference between how I write my comments and how you write yours.  I don't aim those words to ANY member in particular. 

See the difference? 

the difference is that I address the users, instead of launching hints.

I hope one day you apply your own advice, and maybe stop pretending to be some kind of police in the forums, we end here, we derailed the thread.

 

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

the difference is that I address the users, instead of launching hints.

There are NO hints because there is NO ONE being targeted. 

If you have complexes or issues then that runs on you. I can't do much about it. 

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I hope one day you apply your own advice, and maybe stop pretending to be some kind of police in the forums, we end here, we derailed the thread.

You decided to reply on your own, be responsible for your OWN actions. 

[Felsagger]

Let's get into the topic. 

The bosses in Duviri may be of the unskippable nature where a scripted event should take place. What saddens me is that the difficulty of these bosses will be limited to just gear checks. 

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Let's get into the topic. 

The bosses in Duviri may be of the unskippable nature where a scripted event should take place. What saddens me is that the difficulty of these bosses will be limited to just gear checks. 

Ngl, even most of Elden Ring is a gearcheck if the player knows what they're doing. It's dependent on the player whether they cheese or do the sweaty perfect timing mlg pro builds. The difference is that I can't use my SL 1 Warframe to bully new duiviri players, so no incentive to do anything other than use All The Mods All The Time For Faster Farming. 

I kinda expect Duiviri bosses to be "hard gear checks" I don't think they're gonna be flexible enough that some Tenno would be able to work/cheese their way through the entirety of Duiviri without applying a single mod or changing any gear from basic or not using intrinsic points or whatever. 

[Felsagger]

33 minutes ago, (XBOX)CaligulaTwily said:

Ngl, even most of Elden Ring is a gearcheck if the player knows what they're doing. It's dependent on the player whether they cheese or do the sweaty perfect timing mlg pro builds. The difference is that I can't use my SL 1 Warframe to bully new duiviri players, so no incentive to do anything other than use All The Mods All The Time For Faster Farming. 

I kinda expect Duiviri bosses to be "hard gear checks" I don't think they're gonna be flexible enough that some Tenno would be able to work/cheese their way through the entirety of Duiviri without applying a single mod or changing any gear from basic or using intrinsic points or whatever. 

Yes, anything can be surpassed with gear checks. That's standard procedure in every game including Burning Shores. Problem is that DE can't make a single boss fight good other than being sponge bullet or time scripted shield gated event. This is not their strongest point of the development team. With all honesty DE must hire designers experts doing boss fights. The ones we have are just awful and I'm being generous with the choice of words. .