Are we ever getting that Werewolf frame?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

 

Is that the part where you screamed about how all the monsters have no connections to each other and 'aren't the same thing', which is blatantly and factually incorrect (Again, consider the Moroi, one of Drac's many inspiring folkloric monsters, which has characteristics of both a vampire and a ghost) as I'd already pointed out on numerous occasions, or the part where you took my discussion of how Zombie and Vampire lore have cultural crossover and put it together as 'So you're saying that Zombies and Vampires are entirely identical'?

Because at no point have I actually made that point. But I am aware that I'm not always the best at communicating, so I'd like to be able to clear that up.

While the fragments contained within them are not directly involved with the quest itself, the Glass Shards involved in the Saya's Vigil quest reveal that during the last days of the Orokin Empire, the Unum used some of her "Temple Kuva" in an effort to locate a monstrous Sentient, which would terrorize her tower and her people by night but retreat and hide during the day. The Unum instructed her people to feed the Kuva to the local wildlife, connecting her consciousness with them and allowing her to find the Sentient.

This proved to be a double-edged sword, however, as the Sentient discovered that Kuva could restore its ability to reproduce, increasing the intensity of its attacks even further. This necessitated  Gara, the lone Tenno defender of the Unum, to sacrifice her life, carrying a bomb that devastated the Sentient even as she was killed. Even to this day, long after the war, the Unum's consciousness still resides in the Plains' wildlife, allowing her to keep an eye on the Grineer troops, and she still gives her Temple Kuva for the Ostrons to use.

Also, the big sentient did not actively seek out Kuva. Only once it learned it had a benefit to it did it actually try to get it from the Unum tower.

Also Kuva is not confirmed to be blood.

[ant99999]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Also Kuva is not confirmed to be blood.

The only thing that can be said at this point is that you chose the weirdest hill to die on.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

34 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

The only thing that can be said at this point is that you chose the weirdest hill to die on.

Pointing out illogical applications of themes is not a weird hill to die on.

If a frames theme is just going to be disregarded for their abilities then why even bother having themes in the first place?

[ant99999]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Pointing out illogical applications of themes is not a weird hill to die on.

Sure. If only you ever did that...

I can't tell you anything new here, cause everything was already explained in great detail.

But what I can say is that usually when someone resorts to making strawmen and nitpicking when all of their actual arguements were dispatched of isn't gonna make their points look more valid.

And for what? To continue hating a single warframe's theme which isn't ever gonna be changed?

[Loza03]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

While the fragments contained within them are not directly involved with the quest itself, the Glass Shards involved in the Saya's Vigil quest reveal that during the last days of the Orokin Empire, the Unum used some of her "Temple Kuva" in an effort to locate a monstrous Sentient, which would terrorize her tower and her people by night but retreat and hide during the day. The Unum instructed her people to feed the Kuva to the local wildlife, connecting her consciousness with them and allowing her to find the Sentient.

This proved to be a double-edged sword, however, as the Sentient discovered that Kuva could restore its ability to reproduce, increasing the intensity of its attacks even further. This necessitated  Gara, the lone Tenno defender of the Unum, to sacrifice her life, carrying a bomb that devastated the Sentient even as she was killed. Even to this day, long after the war, the Unum's consciousness still resides in the Plains' wildlife, allowing her to keep an eye on the Grineer troops, and she still gives her Temple Kuva for the Ostrons to use.

Also, the big sentient did not actively seek out Kuva. Only once it learned it had a benefit to it did it actually try to get it from the Unum tower.

Also Kuva is not confirmed to be blood.

From this I take that your point is the Eidolon isn't vampiric because it wasn't always seeking to drink blood? To which, I guess any vampire in media that wasn't born/created as a blood sucking vampire doesn't count as one? Your qualifier for the Eidolon not having Vampiric qualities is becoming increasingly overspecific, to the point I think you're just moving the goalposts to defend an increasingly untenable position.

Secondly, lemme just pull up the point in the text itself where the Unum tells her followers to distribute Temple Kuva for like, the third time...

 

"So she gave her followers some of her blood - her refined Temple kuva" ~ Glass Shard Fragment #3, the Glass Warrior. 

The Temple Kuva is the Unum's blood. Regardless of whether or not Kuva as a whole is blood (and indeed normally it doesn't seem to be nor hold that significance), to the Unum it is, either literally (i.e. it sustains her life) or metaphorically. It's like how being drunk in ancient Greece was normally just inebriation, but to the Dinonysian cults, it was tapping into the divine madness of a primal, elder god.

The summary left out important thematic aspects of the text.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2023-05-25 at 7:57 AM, Loza03 said:

From this I take that your point is the Eidolon isn't vampiric because it wasn't always seeking to drink blood? To which, I guess any vampire in media that wasn't born/created as a blood sucking vampire doesn't count as one? Your qualifier for the Eidolon not having Vampiric qualities is becoming increasingly overspecific, to the point I think you're just moving the goalposts to defend an increasingly untenable position.

Secondly, lemme just pull up the point in the text itself where the Unum tells her followers to distribute Temple Kuva for like, the third time...

 

"So she gave her followers some of her blood - her refined Temple kuva" ~ Glass Shard Fragment #3, the Glass Warrior. 

The Temple Kuva is the Unum's blood. Regardless of whether or not Kuva as a whole is blood (and indeed normally it doesn't seem to be nor hold that significance), to the Unum it is, either literally (i.e. it sustains her life) or metaphorically. It's like how being drunk in ancient Greece was normally just inebriation, but to the Dinonysian cults, it was tapping into the divine madness of a primal, elder god.

The summary left out important thematic aspects of the text.

But Kuva is not exclusive to the Unum tower. If it was exclusively produced by the tower we wouldn’t be seeing it harvested across the planets.

There’s also the fact that power Unum grants through her Kuva is similar to blue Kuva.

Your qualifiers for making Eidolons vampiric are overly vague. “It’s undead and at one point pursued a liquid. Obviously it’s a vampire”.

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

But Kuva is not exclusive to the Unum tower. If it was exclusively produced by the tower we wouldn’t be seeing it harvested across the planets.

There’s also the fact that power Unum grants through her Kuva is similar to blue Kuva.

This is generally true, but entirely unrelated to the main point of

 

"Her Blood"

 

What Kuva is to the rest of the universe is one thing. As far as the Eidolon's narrative is concerned, the Kuva held within the Unum is her blood. It is taking on the role of blood, it is acknowledged to be blood in this instance.

 

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Your qualifiers for making Eidolons vampiric are overly vague. “It’s undead and at one point pursued a liquid. Obviously it’s a vampire”.

Aside from the aforementioned folkloric vampire definition of 'creepy undead dude' which as I've stated, could refer to many other revenants, I would say that the definition of vampire is usually specific to the story itself. 

But if you'd like what I'd consider to be a relatively apt general definition, I'd  give something like the following:

 

A usually (but not always) intelligent humanoid (or equivalent if a setting has non-humanoid sentient life) monster, typically but not always undead that feeds on either blood, or another form of life essence (often but not exclusively through the medium of blood). Other such foods might include general life essences (such as qi, mental wellbeing or another story-specific force), or something similar to blood for the victims of the narrative, such as ichor, oil or electricity. Lastly, Vampires are almost always considered creatures of the night and are somehow more vulnerable in the daytime - this may be as harsh as burning at the touch of anything even resembling daylight, to merely lacking the ability to use certain abilities during the daytime, or losing nothing but having a reaction that identifies them as vampiric.

In terms of common secondary characteristics, a vampire may have other specific tells or weaknesses, frequently including an inability to cross running water, cannot be seen in mirrors or must return to the earth of its homeland on a daily basis. Similarly, they may have additional powers as well, usually immunity to harm except via a particular means, shapeshifting, and the ability to create more of themselves via some form of magic or via feeding. These secondary characteristics are not required, however, and some or all may be absent, and atypical, story-specific powers may be present, and may even vary between vampires in the story.

 

It's certainly not a perfect definition, and it leaves out some vampires and catches some non-vampires, and there's so many 'usually but not always' clauses in there to try and avoid as much of the 'leaves out' at as possible. And I've still probably left some important stuff out, but whatever.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

25 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is generally true, but entirely unrelated to the main point of

 

"Her Blood"

 

What Kuva is to the rest of the universe is one thing. As far as the Eidolon's narrative is concerned, the Kuva held within the Unum is her blood. It is taking on the role of blood, it is acknowledged to be blood in this instance.

 

Aside from the aforementioned folkloric vampire definition of 'creepy undead dude' which as I've stated, could refer to many other revenants, I would say that the definition of vampire is usually specific to the story itself. 

But if you'd like what I'd consider to be a relatively apt general definition, I'd  give something like the following:

 

A usually (but not always) intelligent humanoid (or equivalent if a setting has non-humanoid sentient life) monster, typically but not always undead that feeds on either blood, or another form of life essence (often but not exclusively through the medium of blood). Other such foods might include general life essences (such as qi, mental wellbeing or another story-specific force), or something similar to blood for the victims of the narrative, such as ichor, oil or electricity. Lastly, Vampires are almost always considered creatures of the night and are somehow more vulnerable in the daytime - this may be as harsh as burning at the touch of anything even resembling daylight, to merely lacking the ability to use certain abilities during the daytime, or losing nothing but having a reaction that identifies them as vampiric.

In terms of common secondary characteristics, a vampire may have other specific tells or weaknesses, frequently including an inability to cross running water, cannot be seen in mirrors or must return to the earth of its homeland on a daily basis. Similarly, they may have additional powers as well, usually immunity to harm except via a particular means, shapeshifting, and the ability to create more of themselves via some form of magic or via feeding. These secondary characteristics are not required, however, and some or all may be absent, and atypical, story-specific powers may be present, and may even vary between vampires in the story.

 

It's certainly not a perfect definition, and it leaves out some vampires and catches some non-vampires, and there's so many 'usually but not always' clauses in there to try and avoid as much of the 'leaves out' at as possible. And I've still probably left some important stuff out, but whatever.

So how does any of that translate to “the giant, undead robot fragments that shoot lasers are vampires”? And more specifically. How does the Eidolon Warframe not receive powers directly related to the Eidolons and instead abilities that they don’t possess.

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So how does any of that translate to “the giant, undead robot fragments that shoot lasers are vampires”?

Eidolon Vampire definition quiz, then, shall we. Are they:

1: A monster that is humanoid or an equivalent if non-humanoids exist in the setting? Yes, specifically the 'non-humanoid equivalent'. Though bonus points, they are the most anthropomorphised of the common sentients.

2: Do they consume Blood, a setting-specific blood equivalent or some form of life essence? Yes, they consume Temple Kuva, the blood of the Unum.

3: Are they considered creatures of the night or otherwise prefer to operate away from sunlight? Yes, they fear and are blinded by the sun and subsequently retreat when daytime comes.

Bonus points: do they have any frequently-vampiric secondary characteristics? They're invulnerable to damage unless harmed in a particular way and they must return to their resting place on a daily basis to gain their power. Whilst they're water connected, they also don't appear from running water, only still freshwater.

Triple affirmative with bonus points. They definitely have other inspirations in there as well (the giant part especially gives them Kaiju vibes as well), but there be vampire in there. 

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And more specifically. How does the Eidolon Warframe not receive powers directly related to the Eidolons and instead abilities that they don’t possess.

As I've said before, likely because DE didn't think they could do an Eidolon frame justice specifically, probably due to how much Eidolons also get tied up in the Kaiju and Zombie inspiration they also have which makes them big and slow, so they decided to focus in on a particular aspect of the Eidolon's theming and inspiration. But I certainly don't know for sure, nor do I particularly care. As I've also said before, whether the design choice was a good idea is neither my place to say, nor is it particularly relevant to the question of if it's a valid design choice to do.

[Mediloric]

This is still going? Poor Voruna got turned into a hardcore Rev debate! 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2023-05-26 at 3:50 PM, Mediloric said:

This is still going? Poor Voruna got turned into a hardcore Rev debate! 

And it’s not even my fault this time.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2023-05-26 at 3:40 PM, Loza03 said:

Eidolon Vampire definition quiz, then, shall we. Are they:

1: A monster that is humanoid or an equivalent if non-humanoids exist in the setting? Yes, specifically the 'non-humanoid equivalent'. Though bonus points, they are the most anthropomorphised of the common sentients.

2: Do they consume Blood, a setting-specific blood equivalent or some form of life essence? Yes, they consume Temple Kuva, the blood of the Unum.

3: Are they considered creatures of the night or otherwise prefer to operate away from sunlight? Yes, they fear and are blinded by the sun and subsequently retreat when daytime comes.

Bonus points: do they have any frequently-vampiric secondary characteristics? They're invulnerable to damage unless harmed in a particular way and they must return to their resting place on a daily basis to gain their power. Whilst they're water connected, they also don't appear from running water, only still freshwater.

Triple affirmative with bonus points. They definitely have other inspirations in there as well (the giant part especially gives them Kaiju vibes as well), but there be vampire in there. 

As I've said before, likely because DE didn't think they could do an Eidolon frame justice specifically, probably due to how much Eidolons also get tied up in the Kaiju and Zombie inspiration they also have which makes them big and slow, so they decided to focus in on a particular aspect of the Eidolon's theming and inspiration. But I certainly don't know for sure, nor do I particularly care. As I've also said before, whether the design choice was a good idea is neither my place to say, nor is it particularly relevant to the question of if it's a valid design choice to do.

I’d hardly call the Teralyst and Vomvalysts humanoid.

Metaphorical blood vs actual blood. What you should be looking for is a specific mythology of vampire where they drink from buildings instead of people. And again. The big sentient only pursued the Unums Kuva when alive. It’s undead fragments aren’t actively attacking Cetus.

So are werewolves. Are those vampires too?

So anything with a weak point is a vampire now?

They literally rise from the lakes. The one 2 of them come up from literally feeds into a river too.

It’s not that hard to do an Eidolon frame right. You look at what they do in gameplay and lore and design a kit around those things. What Rebecca chose to do was let her obsession with vampires overtake her responsibility over Revenants kit and she designed vampire powers instead of Eidolon powers. Also if you don’t know the reason Rebecca was the one designing his kit was because the rest of the design team was too busy with ForTuna to work on a frame kit.

Edited May 30, 2023 by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’d hardly call the Teralyst and Vomvalysts humanoid.

They'd certainly not fit into that creature type if this was DnD, but consider that the Vomvalysts are basically a floating head, and the Teralysts have the same basic structure and walk. Far from humanoid, but they're the closest of their lesser Sentient/Fragment kin.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Metaphorical blood vs actual blood. What you should be looking for is a specific mythology of vampire where they drink from buildings instead of people. And again. The big sentient only pursued the Unums Kuva when alive. It’s undead fragments aren’t actively attacking Cetus.

First off, how many times do I have to literally cite the text. It's blood. It is called blood in the text. If you want to say "oooh but that's not actually blood" A: I already pointed that out in the very point you're refuting and B: The text disagrees with you.

Secondly, a Vampire doesn't necessarily have to be undead to fit the aformentioned definition (though it's extremely preferable). This has folkloric origins (again the Nosferatu), and there's certainly creatures who fit the description that any sane person would refer to as a vampire that isn't undead in the narrative - off the top of my head, this usually applies whenever the base species wasn't technically alive in the first place (usually the surprisingly-common 'Robot Vampire), but Myers Vampires aren't undead either. Same deal with all the Zombies that in-universe are 'the infected' and are basically dead shells of their former selves yadda yadda, but aren't undead.

(personally though I do prefer undead vamps, but that's preference, not definition)

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So are werewolves. Are those vampires too?

Actually yes, at least in Bram Stoker's Dracula.

Not even looking at inspiration and diverging culture here, Dracula is described as a Vrykolakas, which is a creature that in life was a Werewolf, and in death becomes a powerful Vampire, maintaining many of its Werewolf powers and characteristics, including the ability to transform into a wolf. Which Dracula does during the original novel.

Indeed, many earlier Werewolves have very little to no nighttime connections, probably because it makes very little sense for a monster based on a diurnal creature to be nocturnal if you aren't taking inspiration from elsewhere.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So anything with a weak point is a vampire now?

No, you'll note that's 'secondary characteristics'. That is to say, characteristics that aren't required, they just help. Please read more carefully before constructing your straw men.

Many vampire stories involved them needing to be killed in some obscure way, often requiring them to be attacked with a specific kind of wood, which evolved into the wooden stake of Dracula. For example, Abhartach (who may have been at least one of Drac's inspirations) had to be slain with a Sword made of Yew in one version, and in the other had to be buried a certain way to prevent him from rising. That being said, even that vampire was still vulnerable to being harmed (just not permanently killed), and many modern vampires die just fine from other weapons.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

They literally rise from the lakes. The one 2 of them come up from literally feeds into a river too.

Actually, it doesn't. It used to, at least from the in-universe fiction, but if you follow it you'll find the river is blocked and dry either due to natural occurrences or due to the Grineer's influence and thus now the water stands still. 

It's specifically running water that's a vamp thing. Not sure where that comes from, unfortunately.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s not that hard to do an Eidolon frame right. You look at what they do in gameplay and lore and design a kit around those things. What Rebecca chose to do was let her obsession with vampires overtake her responsibility over Revenants kit and she designed vampire powers instead of Eidolon powers. Also if you don’t know the reason Rebecca was the one designing his kit was because the rest of the design team was too busy with ForTuna to work on a frame kit.

I know, and as I've said I really do not care for whether or not it was the right choice, only that it was a valid one.