Hydroid Rework (The Real Problem) and other random Ideas

[Ruison]

I've just got back from a long hiatus and It's painful to still see Hydroid in the state that he is in. This is the last post I'm making on him then go on another long Hiatus away from the forums.

Whomever at DE reads these and makes some of these changes happen I'd like to personally thank you for what happened to Frost he's a joy now.

Hydroids Biggest Problem

Range and Radius

I'm gonna blanket statement this because it's the single biggest flaw in his kit. The Range and Radius of all his abilities is why there is no synergy with them all (Except Swarm). The BIGGEST thing you can do for him is All abilities cast in Undertow have the same Range/Radius of Undertow. This is more of a Nerf than a buff but I'm willing to bet, if you do this, his kit will have more Synergy and enemies might actually stay in Undertow.

Why:

• Doesn't matter if your Tempest Barrage can hit targets in Undertow if you can hit Undertow in the first place. Tempest Barrage has a fixed Radius of 10m and Maxed out Undertow has a range of 6.69m. Yes, the blast range can still cause enemies in undertow to be hit BUT terrain prevents that from happening.
• Tidal Surge being 2x the size of Undertow is the primary reason why enemies won't stay in Undertow. If you spam Tidal Surge enemies stay in Undertow but as soon as you stop they get spat out. That's because while casting Tidal Surge, Undertow's Radius becomes the range of Tidal Surge. When you stop casting its shrinks back to its original size and that is why enemies don't stay in. Tidal Surge has a Max Range of 16.8m while Undertow has 6m.I was wrong enemies in undertow cannot technically be moved by Tidal Surge and return to their origin postitions upon leaving Undertow or if you move while in Undertow. This is officially the longest standing Warframe bug in the game that I know of.
• Tentacle Swarm is the only ability Hydroid has that has any actual Synergy. Why? Because Tentacle Swarm's Radius becomes the same Radius as Undertow and gets a 200% increase in damage.

So in conclusion, for all of Hydroid's Abilities sake, change Undertow to the following.

"Become a water trap and drown unsuspecting enemies. All of Hydroid's abilities Cast in Undertow have reduced range but greatly Increased power."

Power increase of (Whatever Number you deem fit) for all his abilities in Undertow (Excluding Undertow) is completely fair and not game-breaking in any way. You would literally be reducing the range of all your abilities to a Maximum range of 7 meters. This also makes sense thematically too! Hydroid should be stronger while underwater than he is on land (He's based on Davey Jones Anyways). I'm willing to also say that all Hold to casting should Increase his range and energy cost but decrease abilities damage. What is wrong with Increasing the range of Tempest Barrage to a Radius of 20m or even 40m? You can't hit anything reliable anyways. Tentacle swarm is limited to only being able to hit 20 enemies. You can't hold to cast Tidal Surge or Undertow.

 

Tweaking his Other Abilities

Passive:

I honestly do not care. I don't know when or why Warframes started getting Novels for passive but in my honest opinion. Hydroids Passive should be Locker and give him 2x resources and loot from Lockers. Haha, Davey Jones Locker! Common DE that's perfect for him! Then again I am from a time when Warframes did not have passives at all and if you address Hydroids Passive you need to Address Frost's, Sayrn's, Loki's, and Mag's. They all need some love and the funny thing is they are all some of the Original Warframes. Also, none of the original frames got signature weapons! 

 

Tempest Barrage:

Leave it alone. Apart from what was mentioned above it's fine as it is. It's one of the few abilities in the game that affects Nullifier's bubbles so asking for anything more seems too much. The Augment though I'd personally like it to not increase damage at all and instead increase Status duration of the Corrosive Proc's. The numbers are up to DE on that.

 

Tidal Surge:

Again Apart from what is mentioned above it doesn't need a change. Maybe Holding cast would slowly make it grow or some other hold-to-cast function. The utility it provides is enough. Don't you dare touch Tidal Surge's Augment it's literally the BEST thing he has going for him currently. Maybe make the ability cost 20 energy without the augment? Damage does not matter at all and According to the wiki it's supposed to do Slash Damage. I've never seen that happen.

 

Undertow:

It's the biggest problem but actually not at the same time. As an ability by itself, it's one of the more Over Powered in the game. Complete Invulnerability is pretty insane. Again I would touch not touch augment it actually is extremely useful in Sorties (Agent in Defence) and Eidolon hunts (Lures and Volts) for healing things other than yourself. I've seen a lot of comments saying it should heal Hydroid by default like Wukong's ability and no it shouldn't.

Tentacle Swarm:

No change is needed either. I kinda wish impaled enemies would take a percentage damage to HP but Nah.

 

Hmm, things cost money so... If you need money to rework him... Reach out and I'll design and make a Delux Level skin to help fund the rework. Attachments, Syandana, and everything.

 

Dump pointless rant:
I'm not a fan of completely changing Warframes. Hydroid is one of those frames that I always wanted to love but he was buggy, is still buggy, and with his track record will be buggy for at least another few years. I could sit here and pump out limitless Pirate-themed frames because there is so much lore behind them. I was actually kinda bummed playing the Railjack story and seeing Sevagoth at the end instead of another Pirate or Captain-themed frame. Blackbeard, Avery, Flint, Calico, Anne, Worley, Ward, Bart, Bartholomew, Ching, and Barbossa to name a few were all truly unique. If I was able I'd make three more frames based on the myths and Legends of those famous Pirates.

Zheng the Mad Siren for whom the Bell Tolls. Based on Zheng Yi Sao (Ching Shih) the Famous Chinese Pirate of the south sea. She would ring the bells out a sea normally used in ports before there were lighthouses. Luring Traders, Sailors, and other Pirates to their demise leading her to raise the largest Pirate fleet. People argue about who was more successful Ching or BlackBeard. I don't know if it was true but it is a story about her that was passed down in my family (I'm related to Worley).

A stealth arsonist's frame based on Anne Bonny and Mary Read (Literally Called the Cross Dressing Pirate at one point) would be unique and Deadly. Instead of using stealth, she would disguise herself as an enemy to sneak around (Skin Walker). Would Literally be turning Khal and Viso into a Warframe. DE, please!

Finally, a very absurd frame based on Sete Bonet and Blackbeard. Horribly Wounded with fearsome ferocity. Warframe is based on all the cruel absurdities of Pirates. Keelhauling, Hanging, Bribery, and Gambling. Tieing up enemies and dragging them around with him or tieing them to each other or Objects (The ceiling would be the hanging part). Gambling by having an ability with 50/50 chance to kill an enemy he is dragging or sacrificing his own life/Shield/armor/Energy for a random buff or loot(if the Enemy is killed). Let him be able to buff enemies too just for pure chaos. Bribery would remove all his and his enemies' buffs and debuffs.

I dunno maybe one day I'll flesh out the concepts and post them in the forums.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Ruison
Mistakes

[Ruison]

I stand horribly Incorrect...

Undertow and Tidal Surge just don't work at all. Put on Narrow Minded with an Efficiency build that basically makes Tidal Surge Free. After 70 meters on Enemies just fall out of Undertow no matter how much you spam it. Granted you have a range of only 2 meters but enemies don't travel with Undertow at all. How has this not been fixed? 

No wonder nobody plays him...

 

So Tidal Surge does not Move enemies in the undertow at all. They Retain the position they were originally in when affected by Undertow.

[Frendh]

My biggest issue with Hydroid is that the tentacles do not efficiently reach out and grab enemies. Visually tentacles are quite long, but they are horrible at trapping enemies.

[Ruison]

3 hours ago, Frendh said:

My biggest issue with Hydroid is that the tentacles do not efficiently reach out and grab enemies. Visually tentacles are quite long, but they are horrible at trapping enemies.

Yeah, I get sentiment. Your suppose to group enemies up with Tidal Surge and Undertow. The use Tentacle Swarm while everything is in range.

 

Useful Information:

The thing about Tentcle Swarm is that no matter how much range you put on it the ability will always have a Radius of 4 meters to 7 meters. At 280℅ Range Undertow can still make it's Radius 6 Meters. The tentacles themselves have a Radius of 4 meters to 7 meters because they vary in length.

Don't tell DE but Tentacle Swarm is one of the Highest DPS abilities in the game. With the right setup you can have 15k DPS. Probably higher now with Shards and Arcanes. It's been like this ever since Atlas (Petrfy) came out.

I just use Varizan Operator Abiity to pull enemies together, Petrfy them and then Drop Swarm on them. Usually while in undertow. Only mods needed are Narrow Minded and Intensfy/Blind Rage. You'll definitely be able to hit and kill with tentacles with this and your are only using two mods.

 

 

 

[Grave.Knight]

I think one thing that could really fix Tempest Barrage is for them to change the damage to pierce instead of Impact.

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

Passive change: kinda mid tbh. Not saying hydroid has the worst passive in the world, but at the very least maybe update it to apply the buffs tentacle swarm currently has active ie the augment.

Tempest barrage: I hope you don't take this in the wrong light, but nullifier bubbles aren't hard to take down in the first place. Typically you can run magus lockdown and a 777 amp, even then something like the atomos that deletes bubbles is acquired as soon as mastery 5. Corroding barrage needs permanent armor strip as the corrosive proc change directly nerfed the augment to the ground. Yes. Undertow scales damage. But not in true damage.

Tidal surge: yes tidal impunity combined with brief respite and hydroid prime's naturally low shield count is a good interaction. Starting to think the problem isn't an ability thing but moreso a number thing.

Undertow: funny you say that about the augment, if hydroid receives any health damage sell him for credits lol. Anyway same said second time. Looking like a numbers problem and not an ability problem.

Tentacle swarm: its main issue is the hold charge mechanic and long cast time. That's it. It's not a bad ability in retrospect, could update it to shish kabob enemies for easier killing, even debuff them and whatnot.

Rant: pog someone ranting about the 2nd worst frame behind inaros lol. Had me in the beginning then lost me halfway. But yes. Hydroid kit wise isn't bad. He underperforms because of numbers. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by (XBOX)Exoni Prime

[Ruison]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

Passive change: kinda mid tbh. Not saying hydroid has the worst passive in the world, but at the very least maybe update it to apply the buffs tentacle swarm currently has active ie the augment.

Tempest barrage: I hope you don't take this in the wrong light, but nullifier bubbles aren't hard to take down in the first place. Typically you can run magus lockdown and a 777 amp, even then something like the atomos that deletes bubbles is acquired as soon as mastery 5. Corroding barrage needs permanent armor strip as the corrosive proc change directly nerfed the augment to the ground. Yes. Undertow scales damage. But not in true damage.

Tidal surge: yes tidal impunity combined with brief respite and hydroid prime's naturally low shield count is a good interaction. Starting to think the problem isn't an ability thing but moreso a number thing.

Undertow: funny you say that about the augment, if hydroid receives any health damage sell him for credits lol. Anyway same said second time. Looking like a numbers problem and not an ability problem.

Tentacle swarm: its main issue is the hold charge mechanic and long cast time. That's it. It's not a bad ability in retrospect, could update it to shish kabob enemies for easier killing, even debuff them and whatnot.

Rant: pog someone ranting about the 2nd worst frame behind inaros lol. Had me in the beginning then lost me halfway. But yes. Hydroid kit wise isn't bad. He underperforms because of numbers. 

Disagree with him having low shields. Hydriod has third highest shield value. I actually run him with Redirection and Retribution because of it. It some pretty nice Crowd control on it's own.

 

I've got some pretty dumb builds but I'd just be happy if they fix undertow so enemies stay in it. Hydro is would be way better by proxy.

 

As for Temmpest Barrage ... I aree a damage type change. I dunno what DE is thinking at times. In the back of my mind I wish it corrosive barrage was magnetic and would home toward enemies. I mean Swarm does magnetic damage? It would make more sense if it was cold or impact. Hydriod is secretly a robo squid.

Tidal surge is a wonky ability with fun interactions all over the place. It can send enemies from Earth to Venus or with Zero Duration be an instant shield topper for shield gating. To be honest what ever they So I really don't want it to change much. Max duration with casting speed you just launch enemies so hard they can go through the map too and that's hilarious by itself.

And finally Rant rant and rant some more. The only way Hydroid is going to get any changes made is if we annoy the hell out of DE. That's the only way we got his prime trailer anyways.

I wasn't joke about that deluxe level skin either. I'm already in the process of making it and then I'm gonna spam it everywhere. Just which it was a bit community guided. I'll move that to the concept area though.

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

As a long-suffering Hydroid enthusiast, this rework proposal does absolutely nothing to solve Hydroids core issues and it does not at all bring him up to date with the current version of Warframe. You don't seem to understand and subsequently do not address, anything about what makes Hydroid so utterly bad. Hydroid's kit is boring, useless and inefficient in 99.9% of scenarios and with the remaining 0.01% being looting and even there, Khora has thoroughly dethroned him as the Number 1 loot frame.

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

Passive: Hydroids Passive should be Locker and give him 2x resources and loot from Lockers.

So swap one useless passive for another basically. Its clear you suggested this because it fits the "pirate" theme Hydroid goes for, but this is one of his main problems; sacrificing genuinely good power potential for the sake of leaning really heavily into his theme. His passive should actually be something useful, like perhaps it gives Hydroid health whenever enemies are affected by his powers or something. Stop trying to lean so heavily into his pirate theme that it sacrifices potentially good powers. Water is also part of his theme too you know and since organics are composed of like 70% water, it would make sense for Hydroid to gain health from them using his power over water.

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

Tempest Barrage: Leave it alone. Apart from what was mentioned above it's fine as it is.

No it is not. Tempest Barrage is crap in every sense of the word. Pointless charge mechanic, unreliable projectiles, pitiful damage, pitiful CC, the augment was made worthless in Elements 2.0 so its no help either. This ability is useless. It does nothing to enemies apart from tickle them. It needs a complete overhaul.

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

Tidal Surge: Again Apart from what is mentioned above it doesn't need a change.

Again, 100% wrong. Tidal Surge's only use is in its augment. Apart from that it is a useless travel ability that gets caught on absolutely everything from stairs to a slight incline in the ground. Like TB, it is useless.

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

Undertow: It's the biggest problem but actually not at the same time. As an ability by itself, it's one of the more Over Powered in the game.

I honestly don't know whether to laugh at this or not. Undertow is overpowered in the same way turning off the game and going to sleep is overpowered. Complete invulnerability is nothing new, multiple frames have it such as Nyx, Revenant, Limbo, and even Nidus if you want to count his passive which means he simply cannot die as long as there are enemies around.

Hydroid's invulnerability is unique, in just how awful it is. Yea he has total invulnerability, but what do you sacrifice in return? Your ability to run, your ability to use melee, your ability to use guns, your ability to jump, your ability to even move faster than a particularly indolent snail. Hydroid basically has to sacrifice 90% of his interaction with the game systems to become immortal. You can only use your powers, which again are useless. Using Tidal Surge to move is so clunky and again it gets caught on everything. All the aforementioned frames have reasonable drawbacks to their immortality which can be overcome, like for example Nyx immortality means she also moves very slowly, but she can still use her guns and melee. Her slowness can also be overcome by using a melee weapon with leaping combos or just by using your operator to move around, which is great. Hydroid has nothing but drawbacks to his immortality. It is the worst way immortality has been implemented in the game so far. 

Undertow also encapsulates the failure of Hydroid's design as a whole. Even back when Undertow was released it was considered a joke ability. It is an ability that goes against the playstyle of current Warframe as it promotes a boring, slow-paced camping playstyle where players just sit around in one position. Warframe no longer works like that anymore and hasn't for at least half a decade. It is considered by almost everyone these days as one of the worst abilities in the entire game. It is by no means over-powered at all. The fact your rework suggestion is basically focused on nerfing the other abilities for the sake of undertow is something I will definitely get to in a bit.

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

Tentacle Swarm: No change is needed either.

Wrong again. 

You see, this is why I can feel confident in saying you know nothing about what makes Hydroid bad in terms of community opinion and actual gameplay application. Tentacle Swarm, is useless.

It's damage? Pathetic.

It's CC? Irritating and inefficient.

It's utility? Outclassed.

Tentacle Swarm is a completely unreliable, inefficient ability that complete fails in everything it tries to do. Like Tempest Barrage, its RNG based, in the fact that you have little control over where tentacles spawn and the only time you are ever sure to catch enemies is on the initial casting. After that, you basically have to hope that the enemy AI makes it walk into the range of the janky, horribly animated tentacle and that tentacle manages to register the enemy and grab it. It also makes it near impossible to hit enemies who have been grabbed it is just flails them about all over the place uselessly. The only thing this ability had going for it, was its loot augment and Khora has completely replaced Hydroid as the preferred loot frame, even though her gain is slightly lower, due to how much easier and more reliable her version of the ability is. People would prefer have a slightly reduced loot chance in a looter game, than use Hydroid. That tells you everything you need to know.

Now for the big one. You want his rework to be centred around the worst ability in his whole kit; Undertow.

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

The BIGGEST thing you can do for him is All abilities cast in Undertow have the same Range/Radius of Undertow. This is more of a Nerf than a buff but I'm willing to bet, if you do this, his kit will have more Synergy and enemies might actually stay in Undertow.

This is completely wrong and does nothing to fix Hydroid at all for many of the aforementioned reasons. Undertow is his worst ability and one of the worst abilities in the game and you think the solution is to further lean into it? This solves nothing. If anything it makes Hydroid slightly worse which I didn't think was possible. It is slow, poor damage, boring gameplay, antithetical to Warframes current flow and is overall a really really boring way of playing.

The part where you mentioned about Tentacle Swarm getting a 200% damage honestly made me laugh. The ability does no damage anyway. A 200% increase on crap damage doesn't do much and even if it did, Hydroid's other problems would still remain; his boring, broken, useless kit that nobody likes to play.

I honestly do not know how you think this could ever help Hydroid and actually make people want to play him. This rework proposal solves none of his core issues but further leans into them hilariously. I suspect its because you said this;

On 2023-06-02 at 1:48 AM, Ruison said:

I'm not a fan of completely changing Warframes

Normally, I would not be in favour of giving frames a complete overhaul. But in Hydroid's case, a completely overhaul isn't just wanted, its needed. Hydroids mechanics are the main problem in his kit and those cannot be fixed by simple QoL tweaks or number increases. He needs a full blown complete rework to his entire kit, essentially an entire suite of new abilities. There is simply no way you can keep his kit the way it is now and just give him higher damage numbers, because that is not his problem. A good example on the other end of the spectrum is Octavia. Her damage numbers are endless scaling, her survivability is one of the best in the game and yet hardly anyone plays her. Why? Because she makes the game essentially play itself and is subsequently boring to play. Its the mechanics of an ability that ultimately make a frame enjoyable to play, not the damage. Undertow technically has scaling damage as well, but guess what its implemented in such a boring and inefficient way that no one bothers with it.

Hydroid 100% needs a complete change. He cannot be saved with simple tweaks. His rework needs to be a lot bigger than this and needs to be about his ability mechanics, not their damage or interaction with each other. He needs new abilities entirely.

Edited June 7, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[Ruison]

13 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No it is not. Tempest Barrage is crap in every sense of the word. Pointless charge mechanic, unreliable projectiles, pitiful damage, pitiful CC, the augment was made worthless in Elements 2.0 so its no help either. This ability is useless. It does nothing to enemies apart from tickle them. It needs a complete overhaul.

At a point in time, Tempest Barrage or Bastille was required for The Law of Retribution but ultimately Bastille was preferred. That being said a max Range tempest Barrage could keep enemies from entering the plate room. Hydroid's Tempest Barrage is one of the few Line of Sight abilities in the game and the only other frame that has a Line of Sight Ability that I know of is Limbo's Cataclysm.

Hold to cast doubles Tempest Barrages Duration and that's bad? 

Multiple instances of a radial knockdown that can target unlimited enemies bad?

It knocks down enemies that's what it's for. I agree that the augment is bad now after Element 2.0. I don't even know when that happened.
 

14 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Again, 100% wrong. Tidal Surge's only use is in its augment. Apart from that it is a useless travel ability that gets caught on absolutely everything from stairs to a slight incline in the ground. Like TB, it is useless.

Go negative duration and it still gives you 1 second of invulnerability and with Breif Respite it fills shields for shield gating. For me, the ability is controllable at 150% duration and I don't get hung on anything unless there's a sharp turn. I also thoroughly enjoy using max duration to fling enemies into another zip code.

So, use it for the shield gate and you don't need the augment.

In the Exploiter orb fight, I don't think any other frame can go from point A to B to A for Therma Faster than Hydroid except for Revenant. Guass and Volt slide around too much. Open fields is where Tidal surge shines.

You know you can aim glide in it to avoid a lot of obstacles? 

 

 

14 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I honestly don't know whether to laugh at this or not. Undertow is overpowered in the same way turning off the game and going to sleep is overpowered. Complete invulnerability is nothing new, multiple frames have it such as Nyx, Revenant, Limbo, and even Nidus if you want to count his passive which means he simply cannot die as long as there are enemies around.

Hydroid's invulnerability is unique, in just how awful it is. Yea he has total invulnerability, but what do you sacrifice in return? Your ability to run, your ability to use melee, your ability to use guns, your ability to jump, your ability to even move faster than a particularly indolent snail. Hydroid basically has to sacrifice 90% of his interaction with the game systems to become immortal. You can only use your powers, which again are useless. Using Tidal Surge to move is so clunky and again it gets caught on everything. All the aforementioned frames have reasonable drawbacks to their immortality which can be overcome, like for example Nyx immortality means she also moves very slowly, but she can still use her guns and melee. Her slowness can also be overcome by using a melee weapon with leaping combos or just by using your operator to move around, which is great. Hydroid has nothing but drawbacks to his immortality. It is the worst way immortality has been implemented in the game so far. 

Undertow also encapsulates the failure of Hydroid's design as a whole. Even back when Undertow was released it was considered a joke ability. It is an ability that goes against the playstyle of current Warframe as it promotes a boring, slow-paced camping playstyle where players just sit around in one position. Warframe no longer works like that anymore and hasn't for at least half a decade. It is considered by almost everyone these days as one of the worst abilities in the entire game. It is by no means over-powered at all. The fact your rework suggestion is basically focused on nerfing the other abilities for the sake of undertow is something I will definitely get to in a bit.

I agree with it being the flaw of his kit for only the reason of it being bugged since pretty much the release of Hydroid and DE hasn't fixed it yet. Thats the part that pains me the most. 

An ability that can hold an infinite amount of enemies like a blackhole, make you invulnerable, does scaling HP damage, and can heal you with the augments is considered a joke ability. Curative undertow is one of the only abilities that can heal agents in Defence. You are calling it laughable bad? 

There was one point in time when Undertow would pause status effects on enemies and since you could shoot from in from the outside you could get max stacks of status on enemies. 

 

14 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Wrong again. 

You see, this is why I can feel confident in saying you know nothing about what makes Hydroid bad in terms of community opinion and actual gameplay application. Tentacle Swarm, is useless.

It's damage? Pathetic.

It's CC? Irritating and inefficient.

It's utility? Outclassed.

Tentacle Swarm is a completely unreliable, inefficient ability that complete fails in everything it tries to do. Like Tempest Barrage, its RNG based, in the fact that you have little control over where tentacles spawn and the only time you are ever sure to catch enemies is on the initial casting. After that, you basically have to hope that the enemy AI makes it walk into the range of the janky, horribly animated tentacle and that tentacle manages to register the enemy and grab it. It also makes it near impossible to hit enemies who have been grabbed it is just flails them about all over the place uselessly. The only thing this ability had going for it, was its loot augment and Khora has completely replaced Hydroid as the preferred loot frame, even though her gain is slightly lower, due to how much easier and more reliable her version of the ability is. People would prefer have a slightly reduced loot chance in a looter game, than use Hydroid. That tells you everything you need to know.

 

Don't recite the deep magics to me I was there when it was written! LMAO. Hydroid has 15% of my over 1000-hour playtime.

Yeah, this kind of damage has always been possible since Atlas came out. The old strategy was to use Mag pull, Atlas petrify and the Hydroid would tentacle Swarm. Now Hydroid can do it solo with all the new shinies available. My record back then was 9.863 DPS with Tentacle Swarm but now there's a good chance with the right setup to push it to 18k. In that Video, he isn't even casting it from inside the undertow either.

Yes, it lost its title as the best loot ability but I stand by what I said 

On 2023-06-02 at 9:47 AM, Ruison said:

Don't tell DE but Tentacle Swarm is one of the Highest DPS abilities in the game. With the right setup you can have 15k DPS. Probably higher now with Shards and Arcanes. It's been like this ever since Atlas (Petrfy) came out.

It is also great at killing Liches and Sisters too! It's my sincerest hope that DE takes the same approach they did with Vauban and Frost. One tweak may be all that's needed to make a frame feel better. Look at what happened to Revenant. He was considered dead on arrival and now he's one of the best tanks in the game.

Then one Singular tweak to Hydroid's kit that may break him is being able hit Undertow with all the Salvos of Tempest Barrage even with the Corrosive Nerf he would be able to self-strip armor more reliably. Right now you need at least 190% range for all the salvos to hit undertow but you have to make a choice to decrease your damage by removing power strength or decrease your damage by removing Power Duration from your build to achieve this. Doing either makes it do less damage.

Tempest Barrage at higher Duration has more Salvos which means more Corrosive procs in a single cast. I'm asking for that one tweak that nerfs him to make him stronger and it's only a nerf while in Undertow.

 
 

[TheGodofWiFi]

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

Hydroid's Tempest Barrage is one of the few Line of Sight abilities in the game

Why does this suddenly mean its good? Just being a line-of-sight ability means nothing if the ability itself is crap, which it is. Also, incredibly niche uses in a raid that is no longer in the game, also does not mean its not a rubbish ability. There were plenty of area-denial abilities people used in LoR and Hydroid was rarely used for it. 

You're clutching at straws with this one.

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

Hold to cast doubles Tempest Barrages Duration and that's bad? 

Yes for three reasons;

1. Hold to cast abilities in Warframe are a pointless waste of time, especially considering the fact you have other frames who can do what Tempest Barrage does, but way better and without a hold-to-cast mechanic.
2. Tempest Barrage never originally had a hold-to-cast mechanic. DE nerfed the original duration for the sake of the charge mechanic.
3. Tempest Barrage is utterly pitiful CC, so increasing the duration is utterly pointless anyway.

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

Multiple instances of a radial knockdown that can target unlimited enemies bad?

"Radial knockdown". If the projectiles don't get caught on the environment, which they often do, it is not a guaranteed knockdown and even then it is one of the worst types of CC in the entire game. Putting an enemy on their ass for two seconds? Yea not useful at all.

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

It knocks down enemies that's what it's for.

I know what its for. You seem to be entirely missing the point that Tempest Barrage is terrible as a CC ability. Just because it does what its supposed to do, doesn't mean the way it does it, is not bad, because it very much is. Why on earth would you want to use this ability over literally any other CC ability in the game? You wouldn't.

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

Go negative duration and it still gives you 1 second of invulnerability and with Breif Respite it fills shields for shield gating. For me, the ability is controllable at 150% duration and I don't get hung on anything unless there's a sharp turn. I also thoroughly enjoy using max duration to fling enemies into another zip code.

So, use it for the shield gate and you don't need the augment.

In the Exploiter orb fight, I don't think any other frame can go from point A to B to A for Therma Faster than Hydroid except for Revenant. Guass and Volt slide around too much. Open fields is where Tidal surge shines.

You know you can aim glide in it to avoid a lot of obstacles? 

1 second of invulnerability is nothing compared to what other frames have and shield gating is not an excuse for bad design. Also flinging enemies is pointless. You may find it fun, but that doesn't mean its useful because it isn't.

Also again, it being a semi-decent travel ability means nothing because you can only use it in open fields and there you already have archwings which are faster, so there is not point to it either. Travel abilities are superfluous and have been for quite a long time.

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

An ability that can hold an infinite amount of enemies like a blackhole, make you invulnerable, does scaling HP damage, and can heal you with the augments is considered a joke ability. Curative undertow is one of the only abilities that can heal agents in Defence. You are calling it laughable bad? 

Yes I am because you are putting down all its capabilities on paper and not actually acknowledging its implementation in the game. You are being completely disingenuous here and I have no idea why considering you apparently want Hydroid to be good and yet you're acting like Undertow is the bee's knees. 

Yes Undertow has scaling HP damage, but it is incredibly slow, inefficient and you need to basically just sit there waiting for the enemy to die or cast your other abilities to speed it up. Boring. (I also gave you an example about how scaling damage means nothing to people if its implementation is boring with Octavia, who like Hydroid has scaling damage and yet nobody plays her, because, again like Hydroid, the way its implemented is boring. You completely ignored this.)

Yes Undertow makes you invulnerable, but you loose your ability to run, use guns, use melee, parkour and even to go very fast at all. (Again, you seemed to completely ignore the implementation and focus only on what this ability says on the tin. Implementation is what counts at the end of the day and Hydroid's immortality is the worst implementation in the entire game. It could only be worse if it still locked you in place.)

Yes Undertow can hold an infinite amount of enemies, but why on earth would you even want to do such a thing due to the aforementioned issues like pitiful damage ramp-up, range and boring gameplay. (Again, you focus on what this ability can do on paper, not in actual practical application.)

Yes Undertow can heal, but that is only with an augment and even then, there are much better heals within the game. (Your mentioning of defence is also pretty funny considering that no one uses Hydroid for defence and there are much much better options for healing the objective or even just removing it from damage entirely, a la Limbo. Sitting around in a puddle is not something people find fun mate.)

You are deliberately taking the context and application out of Hydroid's abilities so that you can make them look good on paper. That can be done with literally anything in this game mate, even the Stugg. The fact of the matter is, that no matter how good you try and make Undertow look on paper, in the actual game it is absolute dog-water.

14 hours ago, Ruison said:

In that Video, he isn't even casting it from inside the undertow either.

Okay, a few points to make with that video; firstly its a damn meme build in case you didn't read the description. Secondly, you have to use Helminth abilities to boost Hydroid's pitiful damage. Thirdly you have to invest heavily in archon shards and no one is wasting archon shards on Hydroid when they are far more useful on other frames. Finally it still does not solve Hydroids core mechanic issues, which is why that despite this video that you seem to think is a smoking gun, people still do not like Hydroid and consider him to be the worst frame in the entire game. I keep telling you; damage is not the thing that truly matters to people, it is the implementation that matters. Octavia and Hydroid both have practically infinite scaling damage, but their implementation is boring and in Hydroids case specifically its also garbage. Considering you have to invest so much for Hydroid to even get halfway decent damage, means he has a problem.

As a general rule of thumb, if a Warframe needs another Warframes abilities to get even close to usable, that Warframe's base kit is not looking good.

Tentacle Swarm is garbage for all the reason I mentioned before; pitiful damage, pitiful CC, pitiful utility. This meme build does not change that, it merely tries to cover up the poor damage part and it still doesn't because the ability at base remains crap.

You seem to be taking a really disingenuous approach with this and I honestly have no idea why. You try and take the implementation and context out of his abilities so that you can make them look good on paper when in the game they are absolute dog-water and you seem to believe that none of them need any real substantial changes. You also believe that the worst ability in his entire kit, the thing that encapsulates the failure of Hydroids design and the antithesis of Warframes current game-flow, is actually "over-powered" and doesn't need changes.

Hydroid is largely viewed as the worst frame in the game by the majority of people. Everything he does other frames can do better, quicker and easier. There are no benefits to using Hydroid over literally any other frame. Why are you so opposed to him getting a full rework to his entire kit? I get not wanting to change frames, but Hydroid is one of those rare cases where a entire overhaul is needed as nothing else will actually fix him. An overhaul can only make Hydroid better and yet you seem to be against such a thing. Why I honestly do not know. Hydroid needs a complete rework, from the ground up. Simple tweaks will not fix him as its how his kit is designed that's the problem, not his damage numbers.

Edited June 8, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[TheGodofWiFi]

10 hours ago, Ruison said:

It's my sincerest hope that DE takes the same approach they did with Vauban and Frost. One tweak may be all that's needed to make a frame feel better. Look at what happened to Revenant. He was considered dead on arrival and now he's one of the best tanks in the game.

Frost, Vauban and Revenant are completely different from Hydroid. The way their abilities were designed, means they only needed some tweaks to be good. Hydroid is another matter entirely. He is not the same as those frames you mentioned at all and tweaks will not fix him as his mechanics are designed incredibly poorly, unlike the aforementioned frames. His mechanics need to be reworked from the ground up, whereas Frost, Vauban and Revenants did not.

10 hours ago, Ruison said:

Tempest Barrage at higher Duration has more Salvos which means more Corrosive procs in a single cast. I'm asking for that one tweak that nerfs him to make him stronger and it's only a nerf while in Undertow.

Your proposed tweak would do literally nothing to improve Hydroid as again, like I keep telling you; damage is not as important to people when it comes to implementation and gameplay. Hydroid's gameplay is boring and your changes do nothing to address that. In fact they encourage you to use Undertow, his worst ability, more. That is not a fix and it will not make Hydroid more popular as it does not address his boring gameplay. Again I don't know how many times I can point to Octavia. She is actually overpowered due to having invisibility, which is the best survivability in the game and she has infinitely scaling damage. But she is still not used because she is boring. 

You could make Undertow insta-kill any enemy that walks over it and people still would not use Hydroid because his other abilities suck and Undertow is still a boring playstyle where you just sit there and wait for enemies to die.

Hydroid cannot be fixed with one, two, three or ten simple tweaks. He needs a full rework to his entire ability mechanics from the ground up, to the point where they basically become new abilities entirely. That is the only thing that can properly salvage him.

Honestly, the fact you are asking for a nerf in any form to Hydroid, of all frames, just shows you really do not understand the just how terrible he already is and how he needs nothing but buffs in the form of a complete overhaul.

Edited June 8, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

5 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Frost, Vauban and Revenant are completely different from Hydroid. The way their abilities were designed, means they only needed some tweaks to be good. Hydroid is another matter entirely. He is not the same as those frames you mentioned at all and tweaks will not fix him as his mechanics are designed incredibly poorly, unlike the aforementioned frames. His mechanics need to be reworked from the ground up, whereas Frost, Vauban and Revenants did not.

Your proposed tweak would do literally nothing to improve Hydroid as again, like I keep telling you; damage is not as important to people when it comes to implementation and gameplay. Hydroid's gameplay is boring and your changes do nothing to address that. In fact they encourage you to use Undertow, his worst ability, more. That is not a fix and it will not make Hydroid more popular as it does not address his boring gameplay. Again I don't know how many times I can point to Octavia. She is actually overpowered due to having invisibility, which is the best survivability in the game and she has infinitely scaling damage. But she is still not used because she is boring. 

You could make Undertow insta-kill any enemy that walks over it and people still would not use Hydroid because his other abilities suck and Undertow is still a boring playstyle where you just sit there and wait for enemies to die.

Hydroid cannot be fixed with one, two, three or ten simple tweaks. He needs a full rework to his entire ability mechanics from the ground up, to the point where they basically become new abilities entirely. That is the only thing that can properly salvage him.

Honestly, the fact you are asking for a nerf in any form to Hydroid, of all frames, just shows you really do not understand the just how terrible he already is and how he needs nothing but buffs in the form of a complete overhaul.

Wow what a read, all of the replies you gave were probably by far the best I've read in years. I'd say hydroid is more comparable to inaros in terms of "oh wow this watframe needs a kit and not just emotes" bit to hydroid's advantage he has the shield gate.

You are completely correct in that having a shield gate doesn't automatically make a warframe good, though, as that's on literally any warframe with shields. 

His passive arguably has no use outside of the conclave (guaranteed proc stagger down shields and 1 tap with snipetron). It's trash. I think your suggested idea of a new passive would be OK but I recommend stealing shields instead (while health makes more sense the imposed ideas never give off the means of damage reduction to support the change).

Tempest barrage is a helminth slot and the fact that nobody realizes that to me doesn't surprise me. So your whole point of tempest barrage being an abysmal cc ability is hilarious and accurate. 

Tidal surge is literally only good because of augment. While it's also good as a meme shield gate, in actuality it's just. Annoying.

Undertow is self explanatory you had the best take I've seen in years.

Funny thing about tentacle swarm is that when it was meta hydroid wasn't even doing the killing. Digester.

Seriously wish people like you would lead the reworks.

 

[Ruison]

4 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Your proposed tweak would do literally nothing to improve Hydroid as again, like I keep telling you; damage is not as important to people when it comes to implementation and gameplay. 

I never said it needs more damage. As I've started before he already has damage. My proposal does nothing but change him back to the point where his kit felt good to use.

On 2023-06-01 at 8:48 PM, Ruison said:

The BIGGEST thing you can do for him is All abilities cast in Undertow have the same Range/Radius of Undertow.

I stated it pretty plainly there in bold letters.

 

Reasons why:

Tempest barrage could hit Undertow and stack the Usless corrosive proc faster. Even then you do not need corrosive barrage to do this. You can hit a single enemy with anything like Symulor, Torid or Pox and it will apply status to everything in Undertow when pulled in. That's because all damage into Undertow is split between all enemies in undertow.

Enemies would also naturally fall into undertow at the end of tidal surge.

If I had it my way, I know every one will hates this, I'd give hydroid a fix Radius of 10m on all of his abilities. Holding to cast while outside of Undertow would increase the radius and Hold casting while inside Undertow would decrease the radius.

Or increase Undertow base radius to 10 meters. Nerfing it from 18m to 4m was way to big of a nerf In 2017.

On 2023-06-07 at 3:51 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

As a long-suffering Hydroid enthusiast,

You said your are an Enthusiast yet don't say anything positive.

You've said everything in is kit is pitifully bad and useless. Yet, I can give you a use case for all his abilities.

You've also said that he has pitiful damage when and Video of him doing 10-15k DPS.

 

 

 

 

 

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

1 minute ago, Ruison said:

Reasons why:

Tempest barrage could hit Undertow and stack the Useless* corrosive proc faster. Even then you do not need corrosive barrage to do this. 

*fixed.

 

 

 

 

So you admit the corrosive procs are useless. Why even bother with the change, then? 

3 minutes ago, Ruison said:

You can hit a single enemy with anything like Symulor, Torid or Pox and it will apply status to everything in Undertow when pulled in. That's because all damage into Undertow is split between all enemies in undertow.

 

 

 

 

 

A single enemy? Don't you mean multiple? If you're serious about it hitting one enemy then....yikes. hydroid is a cc frame (his biggest issue) and that's single target in a horde shooter. If you want to do that, run resonator with the conductor augment (in exilus) with any warframe. It's a subsume.

7 minutes ago, Ruison said:

I never said that* it needs more damage. As I've stated* before,* he already has damage. My proposal does nothing but to* change him back to the point where his kit felt good to use.

*fixed.

10 minutes ago, Ruison said:

 

Uhhh nani

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever used hydroid back when he was "meta" or reworked? He wasn't good. He was basically what destiny has for warlock; run one thing and do nothing else. Hydroid was cast undertow and let allies do the rest. Boring, right?

12 minutes ago, Ruison said:

If I had it my way, I know every one will hates this, I'd give hydroid a fix Radius of 10m on all of his abilities. Holding to cast while outside of Undertow would increase the radius and Hold casting while inside Undertow would decrease the radius.

 

 

 

 

 

If this is the direction the game is going I will personally delete the #*!%ing game after 7 years and proceed to make videos S#&$ting on it because there's no way in hell that somebody could come up with this.

Undertow is a trash ability. Sorry. My imposed idea of having it placed was because the immune button is a #*!%ing meme. 

Probably the reason as to why everyone will hate the idea is because you're 1. Classic de style nerfing a frame that NEEDED a rework  2. Making him borderline unplayable.

This is the worst take of any rework I've seen for miles. Like, I'm sorry but not even I can defend that. I have never came across a person that went "oh hey you know the mods we earn in this game and is the whole reason we play it? Well let's make them useless!"

Immune button op? Ivara nyx revenant rolling guard loki ash harrow Rhino nezha -inaros has an immune button. Garuda has 3, excalibur, atlas, wisp. All of them have better kits and none hinder their gameplay. Except Inaros.

19 minutes ago, Ruison said:

You said your are an Enthusiast yet don't say anything positive.

You've said everything in is kit is pitifully bad and useless. Yet, I can give you a use case for all his abilities.

You've also said that he has pitiful damage when and Video of him doing 10-15k DPS.

 

 

 

 

 

With the last take I can understand why.

That's because it is.

No, you can't.

That's a meme build. 15k dps in itself is relatively low, regardless. If you want massive damage.... felarx. Bramma. Zarr. Latron. Strun.

Still staying respectful regardless. This isn't like "ammo needs to be infinite" amounts of being "wow ok who'd think of this" but also I think that perspective needs changed. Maybe you're not looking at how he would actually play out with said kit? 

And if the example video was SO GOOD, why even bother putting in a forum for a rework?

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

I never said it needs more damage. As I've started before he already has damage. My proposal does nothing but change him back to the point where his kit felt good to use.

His kit has never felt good to use. That was always one of Hydroids main problems. Again your proposal solves none of Hydroids issues.

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

I stated it pretty plainly there in bold letters

And it was a completely wrong statement. You want all his abilities to have ranged nerf while in Undertow. That plainly shows right there that you have zero idea why Hydroid is bad. Undertow is his worst ability and you want to lean even more into it? That was why I was debating whether to laugh or not because I could not tell if you were serious, but its clear you are and that is genuinely concerning.

Undertow, is garbage. The gameplay it promotes, is garbage. DE should not and never again attempt to make his other abilities revolve around it.

It is rubbish and needs to be heavily reworked into another ability or just thrown out.

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

Tempest barrage could hit Undertow and stack the Usless corrosive proc faster.

Why on earth would you want to stack procs that you have just said, are useless. Seriously this is making my head spin.

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

If I had it my way, I know every one will hates this, I'd give hydroid a fix Radius of 10m on all of his abilities. Holding to cast while outside of Undertow would increase the radius and Hold casting while inside Undertow would decrease the radius.

Well at least you have the self-awareness to admit this idea is utterly abhorrent, because it very much is. What you want here is to make Hydroid even worse. I honestly did not think that was possible but this suggestion has shown me he hasn't quite hit rock-bottom yet. You not only want to add more reliance on Undertow but you also want more pointless charge-mechanics?

I hope DE never implement your ideas.

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

You said your are an Enthusiast yet don't say anything positive.

Because there is nothing positive to say about Hydroid at all. He has nothing over any other frames and there is no real reason to use him at all.

I've also done my fair share of rework proposals and searching for ideas over the years, with some of my threads about Hydroid going as far back as 2017. So yea I've done my time in the game and in the forum-trenches and have more than earned the confidence to say Hydroid is complete garbage.

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

You've said everything in is kit is pitifully bad and useless. Yet, I can give you a use case for all his abilities.

Go on then.

So far you've given me two very bad examples of Hydroid being used for area-denial, something that other frames did and still do much better and he was subsequently never used, and a second example in which Hydroid sits around healing a defence objective, again something that no one ever does because there are better options out there and sitting in a puddle being a glorified life-support machine is not a thing most people find very fun.

1 hour ago, Ruison said:

You've also said that he has pitiful damage when and Video of him doing 10-15k DPS.

15k damage is not at all that high a damage number, so yes its still basically pitiful. Also again, you have to invest heavily in archon shards and make use of other Warframes abilities via to even get close to that damage number, which again is very low by most weapon and damage frame standards. You are being completely disenguous by taking out the context again.

Again, if you need to make use of other warframes abilities and invest heavily into archon shards to make him reach that point, that is not a good thing. It shows you just how much it takes to make Hydroid do any kind of slightly below average DPS. That is not a good reflection of his base kit, it shows how utterly bad it is. Archon shards and helminth do not fix a bad warframe, they are meant to be bonuses that make an already good Warframe, even better.

Also again, that meme build and your proposal, do nothing to fix Hydroid's core problems, which is the way his abilities are designed. You seek only to tweak some numbers, not actually fix Hydroid and even your tweaks are not a fix, they are straight up nerfs that will actually make Hydroid, worse.

Edited June 8, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[Ruison]

33 minutes ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

And if the example video was SO GOOD, why even bother putting in a forum for a rework?

 

On 2023-06-07 at 3:51 AM, TheGodofWiFi said:

Wrong again. 

You see, this is why I can feel confident in saying you know nothing about what makes Hydroid bad in terms of community opinion and actual gameplay application. Tentacle Swarm, is useless.

It's damage? Pathetic.

It's CC? Irritating and inefficient.

It's utility? Outclassed

I gave an example of it doing damage, killing and it being useful?

 

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but have you ever used hydroid back when he was "meta" or reworked? He wasn't good. He was basically what destiny has for warlock; run one thing and do nothing else. Hydroid was cast undertow and let allies do the rest. Boring, right?

If you look at my account I was there for the RELEASE of Hydroid and no if I undertow something dies. Hydroid is was actually what got me playing the game.

If people read I'm literally asking for Undertow's passive to apply to Hydroids Other abilities. If it wasn't clear I'll make that adjustment to the post.

Today's Meta is all about primers and then dealing massive damage. Corrosive Barrage is a decent primer. Undertow would make it more reliable if you could hit it which is why reducing the radius of Barrage in Undertow is such a big help because it would almost guarantee 10 Stacks. I mean it's a guaranteed 10 stacks now but you need 190% range.

If you think Puddle there for I sit and AFK. The you aren't doing it right. At most I'm in undertow for a 2 Seconds. Unless it's Archon Hunt Defence and there is no Limbo and we aren't killing things fast enough. I will sit if I need to but with the amount Curative undertow gives back you don't need to either. Just popping in for a top off and back out is enough. It's a stupid cheap full heal for all targets.

Either way this post is doing exactly what I wanted. So let's keep going just be respectful.

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

Wow what a read, all of the replies you gave were probably by far the best I've read in years. I'd say hydroid is more comparable to inaros in terms of "oh wow this watframe needs a kit and not just emotes" bit to hydroid's advantage he has the shield gate.

You are completely correct in that having a shield gate doesn't automatically make a warframe good, though, as that's on literally any warframe with shields. 

His passive arguably has no use outside of the conclave (guaranteed proc stagger down shields and 1 tap with snipetron). It's trash. I think your suggested idea of a new passive would be OK but I recommend stealing shields instead (while health makes more sense the imposed ideas never give off the means of damage reduction to support the change).

Tempest barrage is a helminth slot and the fact that nobody realizes that to me doesn't surprise me. So your whole point of tempest barrage being an abysmal cc ability is hilarious and accurate. 

Tidal surge is literally only good because of augment. While it's also good as a meme shield gate, in actuality it's just. Annoying.

Undertow is self explanatory you had the best take I've seen in years.

Funny thing about tentacle swarm is that when it was meta hydroid wasn't even doing the killing. Digester.

Seriously wish people like you would lead the reworks.

 

Thank you. I'm just so over certain peoples incredibly bad takes when it comes to fixing Hydroid. He needs a full rework, not simple tweaks as his ability design is the core problem with him.

[TheGodofWiFi]

10 minutes ago, Ruison said:

I gave an example of it doing damage, killing and it being useful?

Taking the context out again I see.

No, you posted a video in which someone took another warframes ability and a bunch of archon shards, stuck them on Hydroid, which then gave the tentacles relatively low damage numbers. Oh and bear in mind, that video was a literal joke as stated by the creator themselves in the description, again because the damage numbers were below average and there are much better options for damage frames out there AND Hydroid's way of dealing damage is still rubbish due to the core issues with his ability mechanics.

Again you deliberately hide the context and ignore or completely miss the point that it took another warframes ability and a bunch of archon shards for Tentacle Swarm to below average damage. The damage seen in that video, was not from the base ability, it was from a bunch of outside factors that have nothing to do with his base kit and can be applied to any other warframe, with much better results I might add.

Without the helminth and without the shards, Tentacle Swarms damage is worthless and that is the problem. You cannot justify a badly designed kit by trying to use Helminth and shards. It needs to be good without them. That is what makes a good kit.

Edited June 8, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[Ruison]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

o, you posted a video in which someone took another warframes ability and a bunch of archon shards, stuck them on Hydroid, which then gave the tentacles relatively low damage numbers. Oh and bear in mind, that video was a literal joke as stated by the creator themselves in the description, again because the damage numbers were below average and there are much better options for damage frames out there AND Hydroid's way of dealing damage is still rubbish due to the core issues with his ability mechanics.

Are you happy with these rules of engagement?

No Helmlith

No Shards

No Set Mods

No Prime Mods

No Operator

No companion.

 

I'll see if I can do it. I have a old build that might suffice but it's very old.

[TheGodofWiFi]

22 minutes ago, Ruison said:

Are you happy with these rules of engagement?

No Helmlith

No Shards

No Set Mods

No Prime Mods

No Operator

No companion.

 

I'll see if I can do it. I have a old build that might suffice but it's very old.

You keep missing the point again and again and again; the mechanics with Hydroid are the problem. Any build you make is going to be sub-par to literally everything else in the game because again its not about the damage, it's about the implementation and mechanics of his abilities. 

If you want to dig out some old build go for it, but it's not going to boost your argument, because again; Hydroid's kit design is his core problem and whatever builds you have is not going to change that.

[Ruison]

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You keep missing the point again and again and again; the mechanics with Hydroid are the problem. Any build you make is going to be sub-par to literally everything else in the game because again its not about the damage, it's about the implementation and mechanics of his abilities. 

I'm missing the point? 

I'm not trying to make him something he is not or give him a copy-paste ability from another frame. I want him to keep his Identity by taking what he has and applying it to the rest of the kit.  It would be nice if they fix that one stupid bug that he's had for years.  

Pitiful, Useless, other frames do it better. People said the EXACT same thing about "Frost. Get rid of his globe, Limbos is better." Your Argument is literally take everything that gives him his Identity because X, Y, Z frame does it better.

Tempest Barrage is crap because Vauban's Photon Strike is better so, you should just get rid of it completely.

Tidal Surge is just a dash that gets stuck on everything and Revenant, Excalibur, Rhino, and Lavos Dashes are better so just get rid of it.

Undertow doesn't do enough and doesn't Heal like Wukong's and it's just a meme ability so get rid of it and here's a long list of frames that do invulnerability better.

Tentacle Swarm was Replaced by Khora's Strangle Domeso we don't need that anymore.

 

I say take what he has and make it actually work and Synergise instead of throwing everything that makes him Hydroid in the recycling bin which is what 90% of the suggestions are trying to do. If you're gonna do that you're better off making a new Warframe.

You say his kit is bad. That's great you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Your opinions are not wrong. I disagree with them but they are not wrong.

You say that he does no damage. I provide evidence of him doing damage but it's a meme build because it uses all the systems that are provided to all players and frames to use? This also Hydroid is an Area Control frame that is not meant to do damage. 

 

Let me Preface that I am not up to date on all the new frames and nor do I know what they all do but to my knowledge there are only two area control frames, Vauban and Hydroid, where all of their abilities provide some form of crowd control or area denial. I don't know if PHoton Strike Ragdolls enemies but if it doesn't;t then I redact my statement.

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

11 hours ago, Ruison said:

 

I gave an example of it doing damage, killing and it being useful?

 

If you look at my account I was there for the RELEASE of Hydroid and no if I undertow something dies. Hydroid is was actually what got me playing the game.

If people read I'm literally asking for Undertow's passive to apply to Hydroids Other abilities. If it wasn't clear I'll make that adjustment to the post.

Today's Meta is all about primers and then dealing massive damage. Corrosive Barrage is a decent primer. Undertow would make it more reliable if you could hit it which is why reducing the radius of Barrage in Undertow is such a big help because it would almost guarantee 10 Stacks. I mean it's a guaranteed 10 stacks now but you need 190% range.

If you think Puddle there for I sit and AFK. The you aren't doing it right. At most I'm in undertow for a 2 Seconds. Unless it's Archon Hunt Defence and there is no Limbo and we aren't killing things fast enough. I will sit if I need to but with the amount Curative undertow gives back you don't need to either. Just popping in for a top off and back out is enough. It's a stupid cheap full heal for all targets.

Either way this post is doing exactly what I wanted. So let's keep going just be respectful.

I was humble enough to not look.

Yeah some valid points I guess. Thought the whole "if you think puddle is there to afk then you aren't doing right" is... hilarious. Undertow straight up by design is to become immune and to sit there doing nothing. Kind of like what pre nerf wukong did. 

To expand on it, undertow was Intentionally designed to be a creeping puddle of DEATH; but instead it ends up being the only true basis of hydroid reasonably surviving anything. Doesn't fit how we play warframe today I find.

On another note I don't take Meta into account as I don't keep up with it and run whatever I want to. But if you're geared towards that then cool you have my respect.

5 hours ago, Ruison said:

I'm missing the point? 

I'm not trying to make him something he is not or give him a copy-paste ability from another frame. I want him to keep his Identity by taking what he has and applying it to the rest of the kit.  It would be nice if they fix that one stupid bug that he's had for years.  

Pitiful, Useless, other frames do it better. People said the EXACT same thing about "Frost. Get rid of his globe, Limbos is better." Your Argument is literally take everything that gives him his Identity because X, Y, Z frame does it better.

Tempest Barrage is crap because Vauban's Photon Strike is better so, you should just get rid of it completely.

Tidal Surge is just a dash that gets stuck on everything and Revenant, Excalibur, Rhino, and Lavos Dashes are better so just get rid of it.

Undertow doesn't do enough and doesn't Heal like Wukong's and it's just a meme ability so get rid of it and here's a long list of frames that do invulnerability better.

Tentacle Swarm was Replaced by Khora's Strangle Domeso we don't need that anymore.

 

I say take what he has and make it actually work and Synergise instead of throwing everything that makes him Hydroid in the recycling bin which is what 90% of the suggestions are trying to do. If you're gonna do that you're better off making a new Warframe.

You say his kit is bad. That's great you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Your opinions are not wrong. I disagree with them but they are not wrong.

You say that he does no damage. I provide evidence of him doing damage but it's a meme build because it uses all the systems that are provided to all players and frames to use? This also Hydroid is an Area Control frame that is not meant to do damage. 

 

Let me Preface that I am not up to date on all the new frames and nor do I know what they all do but to my knowledge there are only two area control frames, Vauban and Hydroid, where all of their abilities provide some form of crowd control or area denial. I don't know if PHoton Strike Ragdolls enemies but if it doesn't;t then I redact my statement.

Tbf photon strike is absolute garbage and that comes from a player that has heavily invested Into vauban.

To rework a warframe that has abilities that are arguably worse than any other warframes with similar abilities to bump them up you update their mechanics to fit the current meta rather than copy and paste how another warframe works. Vauban is the prime example of that. 

My greatest criticism of the changes suggested above would be that they don't necessarily fix the issues that hydroid retains. 

The passive change? I understand. Passive abilities are hard to come up with. I think the issue with hydroid's current passive is that the tentacle he Summons serves no benefit. Maybe update it to better suit what it's intended to do, like apply Pilfering swarm's loot drop chance while acting like a miniature zephyr tornado for your melee weapon. Reliable and works well.

Tempest barrage is a bad ability because of tracking flinging enemies and corrosive proc changes. Augment should be perma strip and Barrage shouldn't fling enemies around. Maybe have it delete massive chunks of overguard similar to grasp of lohk making it a competitive option for helminth.

Tidal surge is a mobility tool but imo better served as his first ability similar to slash dash and rather make tempest barrage his 2nd ability so that you'd be able to get away with making it a better ability for the energy cost overall.

I to this day believe that undertow and tentacle swarm should become one ability and hydroid should get a new, unique 3rd ability presumably summoning Pirates or something.

Regardless, undertow is too slow and kills too slow.

Tentacle swarm is unreliable for the loot augment when khora can Nuke 15 enemies in strangledome with the press of a button while hydroid has to make a search party for where the enemies went (if they aren't bugged).

It's not a matter of "get rid of it." I will name some of the greatest reworks where the abilities got updated but not replaced. Saryn nezha Grendel Excalibur volt mag (they were seriously that good) Garuda (nobody talks about it but goodness she became octavia but more engaging) khora (same for this one) ash just to name the ones off of the top of my head. It's possible to retain an identity. Not possible if the only way people see out of it is "completely replace it."

If anyone else says that's the only way to fix hydroid, ask them this for me.

Why even bother giving hydroid an entirely new kit when he has abilities that can be useful and inaros exists and would appreciate it more? 

thank you for reading this response in full (if you did). Yes. I will stay respectful. Why? Because your logic is just as justified as Mine is.

[TheGodofWiFi]

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

I'm missing the point? 

Yes because you keep trying to claim that Hydroid's current kit is salvageable and can work with simple tweaks. It cannot.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

I'm not trying to make him something he is not or give him a copy-paste ability from another frame. I want him to keep his Identity by taking what he has and applying it to the rest of the kit. 

Hydroids identity is pirate-themed Warframe with control over the element of water. His identity is not his current four abilities. It's thinking like yours that is what is currently holding Hydroid back; you somehow believe that his kit mechanics absolutely must not be changed or else he'll loose his identity....somehow and so you try and update his abilities via simple stat tweaks. But again, Hydroid simply cannot be fixed with stat tweaks as his mechanics are the problem. His current kit needs to be completely reworked from the ground up. Again Hydroids identity is water-based frame. His current kit does an absolutely abysmal job of implementing that identity to its full potential. That needs to change.

Hydroid is a very rare case in which a warframe needs a complete overhaul.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Your Argument is literally take everything that gives him his Identity because X, Y, Z frame does it better.

That is half my argument, with the other half being Hydroid does nothing better than any other frame. He tries to do a bit of everything; utility, damage, CC and he falls short in literally of those categories. He has nothing that he can do better than other frames. Every frame in this game has an area they excel in and an area they do not. Your attempt at showing examples of how other frames do things better, also is pretty base-level. Regarding your example of Frost vs Limbo; they both have different flavours of a defence bubble. However, Cataclysm is not necessarily superior to Snow Globe and vice versa. They each have their own benefits and drawbacks compared to each other. Snow Globe for example, whilst not a timed ability like Cataclysm, can still allow allies to shoot out of it and also slows enemies who enter it. Cataclysm, while having a much larger AOE and can stop enemies in their tracks, it does not allow allies to shoot enemies outside of it and you have to unpause the Stasis in order for enemies to properly enter the bubble or else they stutter constantly near the edge and make it hard for the allies to shoot as they keep popping in and out of the Rift repeatedly. It's very finnicky.

So again there are benefits and drawbacks to both abilities and neither one of them is superior to the other. They bring an equal amount to the table. Hydroids abilities do not. There are no benefits at all to using them over another ability as every other ability you put them up against, they are sub-par. So again, my argument is that Hydroid does nothing good at all. He tries to be a student of everything and subsequently is the master of nothing. As wide as an ocean but as deep as a puddle.

Also you do realise you are undermining your own request for a change for a rework by going down this route. Reworks are justified by the fact that other frames do things better. It is why people do not like to use Hydroid, because there are better options out there for achieving what Hydroid tries to do. Justifying a rework by pointing out that X, Y, Z does things better, is 100% valid and has been since reworks first became a thing. Warframes get reworked because they get outclassed by other frames and/or because they are utterly boring in the case of Inaros.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Tempest Barrage is crap because Vauban's Photon Strike is better so, you should just get rid of it completely.

Tidal Surge is just a dash that gets stuck on everything and Revenant, Excalibur, Rhino, and Lavos Dashes are better so just get rid of it.

Undertow doesn't do enough and doesn't Heal like Wukong's and it's just a meme ability so get rid of it and here's a long list of frames that do invulnerability better.

Tentacle Swarm was Replaced by Khora's Strangle Domeso we don't need that anymore.

And in the face of all this; Hydroid literally has no reason to exist. Everything he does, other frames do better and he has absolutely no benefits at all over any other frame in the entire game. That is why he needs to be changed.

You acknowledge that other frames do it better, but still don't want his kit changed even though that is precisely what he needs. Hydroid has zero advantages that would make anyone seriously consider using him over any of the other frames you mentioned here.

You really need to let go of the idea that Hydroid's core kit is his identity, because it isn't. His theme is his identity and it can be expressed/implemented in much better ways than it is currently. All of his kit needs to undergo substantial changes, that put his abilities on par with the aforementioned frames. They do not have to be the same, but they have to bring some tangible, useful benefits to the table that would make a player stop and actually think about whether they should take a Hydroid or a Wukong into a mission.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

I say take what he has and make it actually work and Synergise

That is the thing; you cannot make Hydroid work by sticking with his current kit mechanics. All attempts to do so have failed and all attempts at synergy have just made him even worse.

His current kit cannot be salvaged mate with simple stat tweaks mate, you need to acknowledge that as its not an opinion, it is a stone-cold, iron-clad, full-proof fact.

DE introduced synergy into Hydroid with his last and only "rework" so far and all it did, was exacerbate his underlying issues. It made him worse. Your proposal also does not do anything to fix Hydroid because again, his current kit is fundamentally flawed at the mechanical level and is both useless and boring.

It has been nearly ten years since Hydroid was introduced mate. It is time to stop holding onto his outdated, inefficient and utterly boring kit. As an analogy its like you are stubbornly trying to hold onto an old, barely functional 1983 Motorla DynaTAC telephone instead of just getting a new smartphone.

You cannot and will not ever be able to make Hydroid work with simple tweaks to his abilities. They need a full overhaul to their mechanics entirely.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

everything that makes him Hydroid in the recycling bin which is what 90% of the suggestions are trying to do.

The abilities you believe makes Hydroid who he is, are garbage. That is a fact. The way his abilities are implemented, hold him back. Your stubborn insistence that his abilities must not be changed mechanically, hold him back. The fact you unironically point out that 90% of Hydroids rework suggestions want to get rid of his current kit, again shows how out of touch you are with the community and Hydroids dire state. If 90% of rework suggestions are saying Hydroid current kit is unsalvageable garbage, that is a clear sign that something is wrong with his kit.

What makes Hydroid who he is, is his theme. His powers are merely an expression of said theme, but they are not Hydroid whole identity. And even if they were, that is not a defence against a rework, because his powers are simply crap and why on earth would anyone want to play a warframe who's identity is based on being crap?

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

You say his kit is bad. That's great you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Your opinions are not wrong. I disagree with them but they are not wrong.

It's not an opinion. You yourself have admitted that it provides literally no benefits over any other kit in the game. What do you call something that has no benefits and only drawbacks?

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

You say that he does no damage. I provide evidence of him doing damage but it's a meme build because it uses all the systems that are provided to all players and frames to use? This also Hydroid is an Area Control frame that is not meant to do damage. 

You provided a meme build in which someone invested heavily into helminth abilities and archon shards and even after all that time and effort, Hydroids DPS was still below average. Again, that is with another frames ability, full mods and five archon shards and he was still below average in damage.

Also I like how you immediately try to excuse his low damage by saying he is a CC frame. Again; he sucks at CC as well as its unreliable, janky and inefficient. Again, Hydroid fails at everything. Try and go any angle you want with him; damage, CC, utility, he is terrible at them all. Hydroid tries to be everything and excels at nothing.

9 hours ago, Ruison said:

Let me Preface that I am not up to date on all the new frames and nor do I know what they all do but to my knowledge there are only two area control frames, Vauban and Hydroid

Yes you definitely need to swot-up on your knowledge of Waframes because Vauban and Hydroid are not the only ones with area-denial capability.

Also again, even if Hydroid was the only area-denial frame in the game, people would not bother using him because the way he is implemented is rubbish. Area-denial is also definitely not as important as it once was way back in 2014 Warframe when everything was about CC. Hydroid was even considered sub-par back then too, just for the record.

Stop trying to hold onto an outdated kit. Hydroid needs a full mechanical overhaul. It can only make Hydroid better and I have no idea why you are so opposed to it. Hydroid will not loose his identity, he will not stop being a water frame he will not being a pirate frame. He will just get a set of actually useful abilities.

Edited June 9, 2023 by TheGodofWiFi

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Arguments aside.

How would I rework hydroid....

I guess off the top of my head lets try this.

Ability 1

tempest barrage (keep the name)

except Hydroid releases a spay of water horizontally in front of him damaging enemies. Holding focuses the flow into a pinpoint jet that increases in damage the longer it hits an enemy with infinite punch through.  (augment now applies a flat 50% armor strip scaling with strength)

Ability 2

Tentacle Swarm (same name but different ability)

Hydroid summons tentacles that suspend enemies in place and pulls them to a target point (yes standard grouping ability.) Hydroid heals for all enemies held, or killed while held by tentacles. Enemies held are health per second.  Enemies killed grants a flat instant heal. 

Ability 3

Eluding tide 

Combine the functions of abilities 2 and 3 for a more fun channeled ability.  Hydroid becomes water and can no longer be damaged by enemies. Allowing him to infiltrate or elude as needed.

Basically this will give him a speed buff allowing for free movement but in water form (like volt speed and cloud walker combined but slower of course and no flying just parkor).  Enemies struck by the flow are stunned and open to finishers. No abilities can be cast or weapons used. While stationary hydroid becomes a puddle that can drown enemies.  Drowned enemies emerge dazed, disarmed, and vulnerable to increased damage. (they sink but then are spit out after a couple seconds weaker but not dead to prevent this being an afk strategy).

Hydroid can pass through lasers undetected but can be seen by cameras, sensors, enemies when he is not stationary.

Ability 4

Leviathan 

Hydroid summons an unknown horror offering the souls of his enemies.

This will be like his 4th is now except.  The tentacles spawn from above ragdolling enemies (max of 8-10 enemies can be grabbed). Now with the added functionality of adding a dome/field similar to cataclysm that starts at max and shrinks with size.  However, this field won't block projectiles.  Only slows and damages enemies while in it. Grabbed enemies are dealt increased health percentage based damage. .  Base duration is 15s moddable for duration. 

[Ruison]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

Yeah some valid points I guess. Thought the whole "if you think puddle is there to afk then you aren't doing right" is... hilarious. Undertow straight up by design is to become immune and to sit there doing nothing. Kind of like what pre nerf wukong did. 

That sadly is the what the community believes. "Sit there and do nothing." For me it's a channel Buff, Knock down or Heal(If I am Running Curative).

If I was Facing a line of Eximus Tidal Surge lets me approach and Single them out ( Ragdolling the Weak enemies away), Get under them With under tow, and Finnally Swarm boosted by Undertow.

While swarm will not kill them It will break their overboard and cost me Zero Ammo. When they ragdoll, I'll do the same rotation away from them so swarm will drop them for me to shoot and kill.

Undertow used to be that death puddle back when it paused status effects on enemies cause them to have infinite duration while in Undertow and Still do damage. They fixed that big a long time ago I personally don't use it to kill.

Undertow is also tool to Drop flailing enemies. Something I think only I do. Because even if Tentacle Swarm has 40 Meter Radius, in Undertow the most it can have is 6 meter Radius unless you hold to cast to override that.

I agree it is slow as hell, if you don't spam tidal surge enough.(Joke) I don't use it to kill. Might use it for a moment to type in char too.

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

On another note I don't take Meta into account as I don't keep up with it and run whatever I want to. But if you're geared towards that then cool you have my respect.

I really don't care about what is meta at all. I Never have. I was actually shocked that my weapons Got incarnon. I know they are Kinda Meta now but I don't think they used to be (Torid and Atamos). Now if they will un-nerf Attica that'd be great or Prime it, Incarnon or something.

While everyone else is farming out the new shinies from updates I'm trying to figure out how to get my favorite bad weapons to perform in Steel Path. (Akmagnus)

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

The passive change? I understand. Passive abilities are hard to come up with. I think the issue with hydroid's current passive is that the tentacle he Summons serves no benefit. Maybe update it to better suit what it's intended to do, like apply Pilfering swarm's loot drop chance while acting like a miniature zephyr tornado for your melee weapon. Reliable and works well.

I still don't care about the passive at all even said that in the main post. For me the hold to cast has been his passive. Yes, know people hate it but that's par for the course at this point. I don't understand why. It does not hinder your shooting or movement in any way like other abilities. You are trading 1-2 Seconds of unhindered gameplay to double the duration of Tempest Barrage or Double the Radius of Tentacle swarm.

I'll admit I stopped using Pilfering Swaem after they stopped it from scaling with power Strength (That sweet 5x Loots). Now I just Tidal Surge enemies into Strangle Dome.

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

Tempest barrage is a bad ability because of tracking flinging enemies and corrosive proc changes. Augment should be perma strip and Barrage shouldn't fling enemies around. Maybe have it delete massive chunks of overguard similar to grasp of lohk making it a competitive option for helminth.

For me Tempest Barrage and Swarm have been the "I need less people shooting a me" buttons because I'm Deathly allergic to bullets. Tempest Barrage take care of the things over there while I deal with the things over here with Swarm.

I love the Idea of it doing bonus damage to or stripping overguard! Make the augment do that instead of Corrosive and remove the ragdoll.

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

Why even bother giving hydroid an entirely new kit when he has abilities that can be useful and inaros exists and would appreciate it more? 

That I agree with he doesn't need a new kit he just really just need the abilities to have a avenue to do different things. I can't speak on Inaros cause I've only played him in Diviri.

I saw a post on Reddit earlier about giving a Fixed number of Salvos to Tempestest Barrage and having the fire rate scale off of Duration.  He said something bout making it 46 salvo's cause Davy Johns Ship had that many Cannons. I'll see if I can find that again. That combined with your suggestion about it stripping over guard would be great change. So a low duration with the augment would insta strip Overguard and pop nullified bubbles quick. 

 

This is great though this is what this is for!😁