Warframe is a tragedy of wasted potential

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I also gotta ask, how was Basmu affected?

Same thing with bubonico, ammo recharge slowed down.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

While AoE isnt like Curious George Cloney it is still bad overall for the game due to how accessible it is with nearly no downside. It simply makes it boring for 3/4 member in a group mostly because no one but one player does anything. 

PvE doesnt mean that balance isnt needed. Heck it is just as needed as in any other type of game since balance brings more engagement to the gameplay. Also, we've had zero weapon in the game getting crippled. There are few things at all that have gotten crippled in the game.

So the complaint is it got boring for you that squadmates are carrying AOE weapons? Yeah, sorry, no, just play solo or hit up a squad if possible. Public, anything goes, players play with what they want. Also, no offense but you do know that Warframe is a horde looter-shooter? AOE is going to have a use at some point, your point would be agreeable if there's only a few stragglers once per encounter, but no.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not sure what you talk about regarding "small margin". 

I was comparing AOE weapons with WuClone, related to the point where it makes everything too easy. AOE still requires players to move, and wisen up. WuClone with infinite ammo, level scaling? Yeah, that's an automation galore, so I would say there that "making things too easy" applies here because for me, it goes against one of the core things what DE wants; play the game hands-on. And some players are actually working their butt off on their own making those kills instead of having the game on and doing something else and pressing the move button so you won't get flagged as inactive.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Of course they deserve a power increase. I dont see how you arrived to that from me saying their ammo economy isnt really a problem.

I don't think I've conveyed it well but it was one of my points since the beginning I've started to talk about the nerfs and Kuva/Tenet weapons. That there's stuff that can be gotten from later parts of the game that are powerful (Laetum, Kuva/Tenet weapons, some arcanes if they attain them naturally with progression). This is in response to this:

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The fact is that when liches were released the weapons were already very easy to get compared to the power progression of the game and where "endgame" players were at during that time. 

So it seems like you're saying it's because older players have easy access to these things? If you are, does that mean that all latest content that can be gotten in content islands way late into the game like the Zariman shouldn't be as powerful? I wasn't talking about the ammo economy in this one.

And Kullervo seems like a different case since he's accessible earlier in the game if players started with Duviri.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Stafelund

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

Same thing with bubonico, ammo recharge slowed down.

So the complaint is it got boring for you that squadmates are carrying AOE weapons? Yeah, sorry, no, just play solo or hit up a squad if possible. Public, anything goes, players play with what they want. Also, no offense but you do know that Warframe is a horde looter-shooter? AOE is going to have a use at some point, your point would be agreeable if there's only a few stragglers once per encounter, but no.

I was comparing AOE weapons with WuClone, related to the point where it makes everything too easy. AOE still requires players to move, and wisen up. WuClone with infinite ammo, level scaling? Yeah, that's an automation galore, so I would say there that "making things too easy" applies here because for me, it goes against one of the core things what DE wants; play the game hands-on. And some players are actually working their butt off on their own making those kills instead of having the game on and doing something else and pressing the move button so you won't get flagged as inactive.

I don't think I've conveyed it well but it was one of my points since the beginning I've started to talk about the nerfs and Kuva/Tenet weapons. That there's stuff that can be gotten from later parts of the game that are powerful (Laetum, Kuva/Tenet weapons, some arcanes if they attain them naturally with progression). This is in response to this:

So it seems like you're saying it's because older players have easy access to these things? If you are, does that mean that all latest content that can be gotten in content islands way late into the game like the Zariman shouldn't be as powerful? I wasn't talking about the ammo economy in this one.

And Kullervo seems like a different case since he's accessible earlier in the game if players started with Duviri.

So just like with Bubonico something that got reverted quickly. Why do we bring it up here?

Nope not about personally boring, it is about unhealthy. Having a group setting where only 1 out of 4 players need to do anything is just not healthy for the game. It leads to leeching and other similar things that suddenly become the norm. And yes I'm fully aware that WF is a horde shooter and the AoE we have, with the current "limitation" work perfectly well when content starts to get more dense and warrant the use of AoE. I'm also not sure what the part you quoted have to do with what you said regarding the game being a horde shooter. Being a horder shooter does not remove the need for balance to make it engaging. Or if anything has become crippled or not. I used the exact same loadout after the "nerf" as before, with the same extreme low ammo weapons and noticed zero difference even with the merc change. The one frame I noticed changes on was Wukong and on my specters, which just ment I swapped from Probo Cerno utility on my specter back to Bubonico on it.

Wuklone didnt make anything more easy than say Garuda since in the end both ended up as a +100% damage buff. The difference is that the clone could spread out the damage or act stupid and shoot into a wall. Only those that tried to make him automated made things "easy". And those were the players they tried to change him for, so they couldnt play actual afk farming. And I dont think any player is working their butt off unless they are undergeared for what they do. The best thing they could have actually done with Wuklone is make it act like Mirage images, so it shoots at what you shoot and nothing else. That way they wouldnt have had to nerf specter ammo either and so on.

Nope it isnt because older players have easy access to it. It is because they were in need of a nerf, simple as that. What I'm saying is that just because they are "late game" or "endgame" they shouldnt be shielded from nerfs. If something is in need of a nerf it doesnt matter where it comes from. I simply pointed out they were easy to get already when released in connection to you saying they were hard to obtain so should have some odd nerf shielding tied to them.

[XorianShadow]

On 2023-07-22 at 9:23 PM, Stafelund said:

Right, and I'm just saying that Warframe being P2W is something that's really hard to treat as considering how everything here barring cosmetics is obtainable without even paying, and the game doesn't pit players against one another and it's always team work oriented in the end. I am free to respond to your notion, and you are free to respond to mine, continue discussing from here or not.

Oh you will never get any argument from me with that, I certainly think warframe is in the top 3 of doing free right. Ive only spent a little money here and there and the progression feels like a real rpg to me it just seems daunting to others because it is a massive rpg.

[PollexMessier]

There's a few major issues with adding difficulty to warframe

Difficulty is subjective and heavily depends on a given person's existing experience and how well they pick up certain mechanics.

It's impossible for warframe to actually get much harder than it already is without taking power away from the players which often ends in mass player backlash.

The power gap between different setups that on a surface level look like they should be on par with each other can be massive, and understanding why almost always comes down to entirely invisible math that requires an unreasonable amount of out-of-game knowledge or hundreds of hours of raw experience to understand. Unless they can fix this, balancing a part of the game around the upper end makes that chunk of the game all but completely inaccessible to a massive amount players purely due to a knowledge gap that the game itself simply doesn't provide the information for. As well as severely limiting viable strategies to deal with it which the player base has also been exceptionally unhappy about previous time's that's happened.

Actually rewarding players for completing challenging content is something the devs are historically god awful at. And the few times they manage to provide genuinely meaningful rewards it's usually one and done, insanely massive power creep that only escalates the lack of difficulty issue, is far too grindy and repetitive, and just becomes too intimidating and tedious to even bother with for most players, or all of the above at once. If there is no worthwhile reward, or even consistently rewarding, the players that want a challenge will instead complain that there's no reason to do the challenging content. Assuming DE could even manage to make it to begin with.

The game basically requires a complete redesign from the ground up for challenging content to exist in it. IE: To give players a challenge, the only real solution is to make an entirely different game. I have a feeling that's part of the reason soulframe is being created.

Edited July 24, 2023 by PollexMessier

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Actually rewarding players for completing challenging content is something the devs are historically god awful at.

Reminder that near end of the game Zariman still has rewards like 5k credits for their slow ass missions with high enemy density and damage.

Or lol the SP circuit with their insulting 5k, now raised to a whopping 50k which is like one Sortie mission lmao.

[Stafelund]

4 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

There's a few major issues with adding difficulty to warframe

Difficulty is subjective and heavily depends on a given person's existing experience and how well they pick up certain mechanics.

It's impossible for warframe to actually get much harder than it already is without taking power away from the players which often ends in mass player backlash.

The power gap between different setups that on a surface level look like they should be on par with each other can be massive, and understanding why almost always comes down to entirely invisible math that requires an unreasonable amount of out-of-game knowledge or hundreds of hours of raw experience to understand. Unless they can fix this, balancing a part of the game around the upper end makes that chunk of the game all but completely inaccessible to a massive amount players purely due to a knowledge gap that the game itself simply doesn't provide the information for. As well as severely limiting viable strategies to deal with it which the player base has also been exceptionally unhappy about previous time's that's happened.

Actually rewarding players for completing challenging content is something the devs are historically god awful at. And the few times they manage to provide genuinely meaningful rewards it's usually one and done, insanely massive power creep that only escalates the lack of difficulty issue, is far too grindy and repetitive, and just becomes too intimidating and tedious to even bother with for most players, or all of the above at once. If there is no worthwhile reward, or even consistently rewarding, the players that want a challenge will instead complain that there's no reason to do the challenging content. Assuming DE could even manage to make it to begin with.

The game basically requires a complete redesign from the ground up for challenging content to exist in it. IE: To give players a challenge, the only real solution is to make an entirely different game. I have a feeling that's part of the reason soulframe is being created.

Despite how everyone tells that the AOE ruins the game or "makes it unhealthy", this is the reason why people gravitate towards it: at the core the game encourages people to go for those kind of weapons. With the way how system works, you will want to kill everything, and kill them fast. Of course AOE weapons bring up the output by many miles. Only few mission types where a single target weapon shines through, many are rewarded through kills or are necessary to prevent failure.

Alongside that, there are rewards that you can only get after the run, and since this is a grinding game you may not get what you want so of course you'll want to do things really quick.

And I think many people are expecting Warframe to be a restrained hack n slash with the likes of MGR, No More Heroes, Devil May Cry, etc. I won't blame them, I had the same impression too and Warframe did kinda start like that. 

[PollexMessier]

7 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

Despite how everyone tells that the AOE ruins the game or "makes it unhealthy", this is the reason why people gravitate towards it: at the core the game encourages people to go for those kind of weapons. With the way how system works, you will want to kill everything, and kill them fast. Of course AOE weapons bring up the output by many miles. Only few mission types where a single target weapon shines through, many are rewarded through kills or are necessary to prevent failure.

Personally I think AOE weapons, Specifically the removal of self damage instead of putting in the effort to balance it properly which was one of the few instances in the game where some semblance of balance was actually possible, was extremely unhealthy for the game. It completely altered the status quo of the game in a way that rendered a massive amount of the game's funnest and most unique weapons and powers completely obsolete. While also contributing to power creep way too much and negatively affecting both the existing balance of the game, and the way the devs balanced the game from that point forwards.

AoE abilities I think are incredibly fun and perfectly fine for the kind of game warframe is.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Stafelund said:

Despite how everyone tells that the AOE ruins the game or "makes it unhealthy", this is the reason why people gravitate towards it: at the core the game encourages people to go for those kind of weapons. With the way how system works, you will want to kill everything, and kill them fast. Of course AOE weapons bring up the output by many miles. Only few mission types where a single target weapon shines through, many are rewarded through kills or are necessary to prevent failure.

Alongside that, there are rewards that you can only get after the run, and since this is a grinding game you may not get what you want so of course you'll want to do things really quick.

And I think many people are expecting Warframe to be a restrained hack n slash with the likes of MGR, No More Heroes, Devil May Cry, etc. I won't blame them, I had the same impression too and Warframe did kinda start like that. 

Yet the game worked perfectly fine prior to self-damage getting removed or the introduction of Kuva/Sister AoE and further buffs got added to AoE, like merc arcanes and galv mods. The "AoE meta", the one that people complain got ruined by the ammo "nerf" is very young compared to the age of the game. And ever since Bramma was released prior to the self-damage removal, brainless AoE ammo sustain has been an issue for DE, because even then Bramma got targetted specifically by a "nerf" for having a too forgiving ammo sustain along with waaaay too much damage. And nowdays all weapons have access to a free mutation mod due to exilus being a thing now for ranged weapons.

And it isnt like we dont have a multitude of other AoE options aswell if you really must have AoE for every situation.

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2023-07-23 at 12:52 AM, Stafelund said:

The only problem I can see is "it will make things too easy and ruin others that are looking for a challenge" and if it's a bother that can be remedied by playing solo or getting a squad that doesn't have those, public is where anything goes, you roll a dice and get to join with random people who play what they like. People will discover a "broken", or optimized combo and you have people being up in all arms about it.

To a point, but then we have missions like Defence or interception where playing solo is not what its designed around. Also DE took good co-op modes like Railjack and nerfed them to be more solo friendly. Hopelessly nerfed to take away the most fun, complex game mode there was.

The power creep has happened, can't complain about brammas, necramechs or operator shields now. DE should have used the new war to introduce an updated starchart, mechanics and damage changes to use those OP items, but they wimped out and went with a side-step to a different game instead.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, CephalonCarnage said:

To a point, but then we have missions like Defence or interception where playing solo is not what its designed around. Also DE took good co-op modes like Railjack and nerfed them to be more solo friendly. Hopelessly nerfed to take away the most fun, complex game mode there was.

The power creep has happened, can't complain about brammas, necramechs or operator shields now. DE should have used the new war to introduce an updated starchart, mechanics and damage changes to use those OP items, but they wimped out and went with a side-step to a different game instead.

Defense kinda depends on the version though. Arbitration defense for instance is several times faster if you solo it with a proper frame due to having far lower spawn rates and allowing you to pick exactly where to hunker down. So no worries someone runs off with the operative. And agreed with RJ, nerfed to the ground. Not only is it more solo friendly, but doing it solo is far more effective due to how ape crazy the crewmates are and you always get your own RJ+armaments.

Also fully agree with the TNW thing and a star chart 2.0. We could have really needed that. Instead in preperation for TNW we got the sentients nerfed.