The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

[(NSW)Greybones]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

 

Oh boy this nonsense again. What are some examples of things players do to avoid shield gating? That is literally the same exact question, what are things players to avoid my playstyle, that is what you literally asked and thats exactly why I didnt answer it because there literally was no actual answer. You think your playstyle is the one everyone is supposed to playing and anyone whos not doesnt know what theyre doing which its so unbelievably hypocritical when you then say garbage like this "I got little to no respect for players who can’t fight talking like they can and acting like they know what’s best for the game when they barely play either the buildcrafting or gameplay portion of it" thats actually ridiculous.

The playstyle that has the gameplay that DE are designing around, which is not your playstyle, is the playstyle I’m referring to. I use both sides of the coin and have a better idea of how they’re different than you seem to, so using your playstyle isn’t off the table, and I’m still saying what you’re arguing for is a-typical for considered game design

[(NSW)warfare3376]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

The playstyle that has the gameplay that DE are designing around, which is not your playstyle, is the playstyle I’m referring to. I use both sides of the coin and have a better idea of how they’re different than you seem to, so using your playstyle isn’t off the table, and I’m still saying what you’re arguing for is a-typical for considered game design

And you still see your own hypocrisy. That gameplay you speak of is not being skipped by anyone, its just being handled in a different way by other players because their playstyles are different. You are mixing the two to form this twisted idea of what you think that gameplay is. And for the record I too use "both sides of the coin" and actually health tank more often believe it or not I dont really care but here you are still making the assumption that I dont.

[(NSW)Greybones]

-replacing-

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Do you now?

I do but youre still gonna assume I dont so whats the point. If this is all you have left is baseless assumptions and a sense of superiority then this argument is officially over.

[(NSW)Greybones]

17 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And you still see your own hypocrisy. That gameplay you speak of is not being skipped by anyone, its just being handled in a different way by other players because their playstyles are different. You are mixing the two to form this twisted idea of what you think that gameplay is. And for the record I too use "both sides of the coin" and actually health tank more often believe it or not I dont really care but here you are still making the assumption that I dont.

I’ve been looking for someone like you. So then you’ll have some ideas for something like an alternative build for my Zenith for level 60 Zariman Mobile Defense

[(NSW)warfare3376]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I’ve been looking for someone like you. So then you’ll have some ideas for something like an alternative build for my Zenith for level 60 Zariman Mobile Defense

Huh? This a genuine question or some weird bait?

[Seele]

As someone who has never intentionally abused shield gating, I'm going to throw it out there that it is not at all necessary, and there is a meaningfully large gap between "shield gate abuse" and "not Mesmer Skin but still viable in the Steel Path"

Now.

To address the OP directly: What?

Back in the Olden Dayes, Rhino was the premiere tank warframe. Iron Skin was the single greatest defense of which any warframe was capable. Rhino was essentially indestructible unless he accidentally fell off the map.

Flash forward to today, and Rhino's Iron Skin is extremely fallible. I have stacked up over 180,000 overguard from Iron Skin and seen it vanish in a split second. It is, rather flatly, incomparable to Mesmer Skin. It requires some prep work and/or particular modding, and some monitoring on behalf of the player. It is a fine and fair defensive ability. Mesmer Skin is not.

Mesmer Skin invalidates the game. As much as I love Revenant in design and concept, Mesmer Skin is just too easy. Unlike Iron Skin, it cannot be exhausted faster than your eye can follow. Unlike Iron Skin, it can be reapplied before depletion, no augments required. Unlike Iron Skin, it completely shuts down whatever attacked you and allows you to cast another one of your abilities on them for free. Iron Skin has a hard limit to the amount of damage it can absorb - the limit may be astronomically large, but it exists. Mesmer Skin blocks n*∞ damage, where n is the number of charges.

And yet! To say that Mesmer Skin is all Revenant is, is just as fallacious as claiming Iron Skin is all Rhino is, as the OP has accused. Rhino's other abilities are quite good, yes. So are Rev's. Have you ever Reaved a Thrall? Do you realize how much damage it does? Danse Macabre may not bring any CC, but Revenant, being immortal, does not need it; its damage scales quite well and, even with a hard negative range build, covers a wide area.

The current meta has made frames without dedicated defense abilities as tenacious as Rhino, if not more so. Old guy does, in fact, need a buff; or rather Overguard needs buffs to not just be the worst of the three HP types. Rhino has never been easier to kill, and as such less relevant than he is right now, and Revenant is an exceptionally overpowered warframe, certainly in part because of, but for more reasons than just, Mesmer Skin. I have to reject all of the OP's premises.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Huh? This a genuine question or some weird bait?

Genuine question. Something that goes well with that mission. Leaves some gameplay and has me utilise my secondary, melee, and abilities without one or the other standing out too much. Something that complements a nice and balanced loadout. Maybe against the Grineer.

Most players know massive overkill and a narrow view of power fantasy. You say you know both sides of the coin; the fight and the lack of fight

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Genuine question. Something that goes well with that mission. Leaves some gameplay and has me utilise my secondary, melee, and abilities without one or the other standing out too much. Something that complements a nice and balanced loadout. Maybe against the Grineer.

Well tell what are the frames, secondaries and melees that you use often with it.

[(NSW)Greybones]

Just now, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Well tell what are the frames, secondaries and melees that you use often with it.

Often? Whatever.

For this? Let’s go with… Atomos, Nyx, and Zenistar

[(NSW)warfare3376]

29 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Often? Whatever.

For this? Let’s go with… Atomos, Nyx, and Zenistar

Still dont know what you fully wan out of it and that combination is a tad weird even for me but Id say just raw viral heat would be enough since nyx has a very easy full armor strip since everything stripped will be weak to it, could build for crit for the alt fire and have it be an anti thrax/heavy unit weapon and use atomos for the weaker enemies and have zenistar be a primer if you wanna make use of the full loadout.

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Still dont know what you fully wan out of it and that combination is a tad weird even for me but Id say just raw viral heat would be enough since nyx has a very easy full armor strip since everything stripped will be weak to it, could build for crit for the alt fire and have it be an anti thrax/heavy unit weapon and use atomos for the weaker enemies and have zenistar be a primer if you wanna make use of the full loadout.

Hey, I know that it’s taboo to not trounce everything in non-SP content, but there’s a lot (a lot a lot) of things like that and the game’s just not fun when you follow common wisdom of a bunch of players chasing the grind.

You got the mods? Just listing them out would be sufficient since there’s only so many slots on a weapon, and I’ll have to check against what polarities I’ve got for level 60 Grineer on the Zariman. Long as I don’t default to it or anything and there’s still gameplay and risk involved, I’m good, and if the mod list doesn’t jump out as loaded up with redundant replaceable mods and something I’d take to something like level 90 content, I’ll be reconsidering my assumptions

[(NSW)warfare3376]

7 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Hey, I know that it’s taboo to not trounce everything in non-SP content, but there’s a lot (a lot a lot) of things like that and the game’s just not fun when you follow common wisdom of a bunch of players chasing the grind.

You got the mods? Just listing them out would be sufficient since there’s only so many slots on a weapon, and I’ll have to check against what polarities I’ve got for level 60 Grineer on the Zariman. Long as I don’t default to it or anything and there’s still gameplay and risk involved, I’m good, and if the mod list doesn’t jump out as loaded up with redundant mods and something I’d take to something like level 90 content, I’ll be reconsidering my assumptions

You are a very odd one indeed, not thats theres anything wrong with but just odd. But for mods just base damage, crit chance and damage, multi then elementals could do 60/60s or 90s or a bit of both like have the viral be 60s and heat be 90 and then free slot for whatever, could even take of heat for another free slot if you want.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You are a very odd one indeed, not thats theres anything wrong with but just odd. But for mods just base damage, crit chance and damage, multi then elementals could do 60/60s or 90s or a bit of both like have the viral be 60s and heat be 90 and then free slot for whatever, could even take of heat for another free slot if you want.

Hm. And this is better suited to a level 60 mission, and I’m not going to be mowing everything down with little care for how I’m playing or what I’m fighting? I’ll be honest, one free mod slot sounds like some higher-than-60 build

[(NSW)warfare3376]

23 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Hm. And this is better suited to a level 60 mission, and I’m not going to be mowing everything down with little care for how I’m playing or what I’m fighting? I’ll be honest, one free mod slot sounds like some higher-than-60 build

I mean if youre gonna be that specific than theres just no helping you sry, but no youre using a nyx with a zenith you will not be effortlessly mowing down everything.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I mean if youre gonna be that specific than theres just no helping you sry, but no youre using a nyx with a zenith you will not be effortlessly mowing down everything.

Doesn’t seem unreasonable to ask for a balanced build for the fight. I’ll give it a shot, but I’ve got a sneaking suspicion I know how it’ll play out and am thinking I can take it further than 60

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Doesn’t seem unreasonable to ask for a balanced build for the fight. I’ll give it a shot, but I’ve got a sneaking suspicion I know how it’ll play out and am thinking I can take it further than 60

Well if you need it that specifically tailored towards every corresponding mission lvl and in this specific case if a bare minimum build on a zenith being too much for a lvl 60 zarimon mission then claim that this type of tailoring is the intended way that everyone should be playing then yea its a tad unreasonable.

[(NSW)Greybones]

30 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Well if you need it that specifically tailored towards every corresponding mission lvl and in this specific case if a bare minimum build on a zenith being too much for a lvl 60 zarimon mission then claim that this type of tailoring is the intended way that everyone should be playing then yea its a tad unreasonable.

Your build is loaded with redundant damage mods, either burning mod slots or requiring weird amounts of investment to pull off when something else can make better use of those slots while providing actual gameplay that isn’t cookie-clicker as well as requiring less grinding to successfully pull off and can go across a band of levels and content. If you’re convinced you have to burn precious slots or sink unnecessary amounts of investment just to play the game and that not doing so is wrong, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Like, what on earth is a bare minimum build and why is that considered the bare minimum when it barely has any free slots for anything else that can lend to alternative gameplay? The game makes sense when you start from the beginning and build, not when you start somewhere in level 100+ content and run out of options

[(NSW)warfare3376]

5 hours ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Your build is loaded with redundant damage mods, either burning mod slots or requiring weird amounts of investment to pull off when something else can make better use of those slots while providing actual gameplay that isn’t cookie-clicker as well as requiring less grinding to successfully pull off and can go across a band of levels and content. If you’re convinced you have to burn precious slots or sink unnecessary amounts of investment just to play the game and that not doing so is wrong, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Like, what on earth is a bare minimum build and why is that considered the bare minimum when it barely has any free slots for anything else that can lend to alternative gameplay? The game makes sense when you start from the beginning and build, not when you start somewhere in level 100+ content and run out of options

Yea youre just completely unreasonable, I see why our argument has gotten literally nowhere. If this weird way of intentionally nerfing yourself so can play an "alternate playstyle" is something you enjoy then more power to you, but to look down on others for not doing the same and say they are somehow playing the game wrong like theyre "skipping the gameplay" and they somehow dont know how to play the game or know what theyre talking about is just absurd and if this is all you have left then Im just done with this discussion, goodbye.

[Rakosta_Kai]

16 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea youre just completely unreasonable, I see why our argument has gotten literally nowhere. If this weird way of intentionally nerfing yourself so can play an "alternate playstyle" is something you enjoy then more power to you, but to look down on others for not doing the same and say they are somehow playing the game wrong like theyre "skipping the gameplay" and they somehow dont know how to play the game or know what theyre talking about is just absurd and if this is all you have left then Im just done with this discussion, goodbye.

With respect, That's literally the point some Tenno are making in this thread.

The things you are referring to as an "alternate playstyle"  was simply "a playstyle" only a couple of years ago (pre-SP, non endurance),  which raises the question of when it will stop.
Years ago, each item had some required mods, Now the Mod habits mirror your suggestions which means almost all the slots are required.

Unfortunately, SP (rather that they have incentivized it) has skewed builds, modding, and expectations into directions that trivialize normal gameplay.

• What was once a niche community (endurance) has now basically become standard and the tools on offer to support it removed the reason why it was ever asked for in the first place.
• Things that were designed or _*ahem* discovered to allow additional sustain for flimsier frames have since become defacto for most frames now.

For many of us it was looking for those fun, understated synergies in builds but that's mostly fallen by the wayside nowadays it seems. 

That said, I'm not saying I disagree with the substance of your own assertions. People should be able to mod the way they want and I don't see value in the OPs claims as it regards either Rhino or defense abilities. 

Put simply, There used to be room in the game for both play preferences and there really isn't now. This kinda sucks.

I'm gonna go grumble about kids playin' on my lawn now too...

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

With respect, That's literally the point some Tenno are making in this thread.

The things you are referring to as an "alternate playstyle"  was simply "a playstyle" only a couple of years ago (pre-SP, non endurance),  which raises the question of when it will stop.
Years ago, each item had some required mods, Now the Mod habits mirror your suggestions which means almost all the slots are required.

Unfortunately, SP (rather that they have incentivized it) has skewed builds, modding, and expectations into directions that trivialize normal gameplay.

• What was once a niche community (endurance) has now basically become standard and the tools on offer to support it removed the reason why it was ever asked for in the first place.
• Things that were designed or _*ahem* discovered to allow additional sustain for flimsier frames have since become defacto for most frames now.

For many of us it was looking for those fun, understated synergies in builds but that's mostly fallen by the wayside nowadays it seems. 

That said, I'm not saying I disagree with the substance of your own assertions. People should be able to mod the way they want and I don't see value in the OPs claims as it regards either Rhino or defense abilities. 

Put simply, There used to be room in the game for both play preferences and there really isn't now. This kinda sucks.

I'm gonna go grumble about kids playin' on my lawn now too...

This is not entirely true, theres never not been a time where your base damage, multishot, 2 elements and 2 crit mods (provided the weapon didnt have horrible crit stats) were basically required theres always been an optimal way to build that people sought after like remember maiming strike or memeing strike as some refer to it as, hell even viral hunter munitions was still around the top of the meta back then.

And its not that sp has skewed mod building to the point of trivializing normal content as we were already at that point to begin with, and its not that people couldnt handle or didnt ant to try lvl cap its more like they didnt want to spend 8 hours in a survival to get to that point so thats why sp was added and this obsession (that is a bit much tbh) lvl cap grew in popularity. The real problem I feel tho is actually that each new update is always geared towards newer players which from a businesses perspective it makes and I get why they do it but it has lead to these situations where decked out vets basicly have to play these weaker missions that they are very overbuilt for to get the new stuff from the update. Take the deadlock protocol update for example, this update reworked the jackal, which was a good rework and all, but in doing so the put some of the new gear (stahlta and stropha) from the update behind it both mr 10 required weapon bps that drop from the boss of the literal 2nd planet. Back to sp the biggest failure I see from it is that the rewards are the exact same as the normal star chart and the steel essence/arcanes are rewarding enough (especially now with the cap to kuva/relic packs) to merit playing sp over the faster to clear normal path, mainly void fissures. Now one good recent addition is that for sp circuit rewards are significantly different than normal path which make it way more worth do over the normal path for the overbuilt players that can handle it while at the same time the rewards for normal path are very good for newer players but less so for vets and hopefully they keep this trend going for future updates.

And Ill also say again I do feel it is time to also look at missions and enemies in general and give them a bit of a rework because they are a bit outdated for the current era of warframe.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Yea youre just completely unreasonable, I see why our argument has gotten literally nowhere. If this weird way of intentionally nerfing yourself so can play an "alternate playstyle" is something you enjoy then more power to you, but to look down on others for not doing the same and say they are somehow playing the game wrong like theyre "skipping the gameplay" and they somehow dont know how to play the game or know what theyre talking about is just absurd and if this is all you have left then Im just done with this discussion, goodbye.

It’s literally how we have alternative playstyles in general and is why wer’re pitted against different levels of content to facilitate it, I’m not looking down on them for playing how they will, you’re literally turning off the game or in some cases running counter to fundamental systems like with shieldgate abuse, you don’t know the balanced as well as the unbalanced side of the coin that is Warframe and then talk like you know what you’re talking about. If you’re so afraid of not wrecking the game, how can you know what a non-wrecked game even looks like and then claim that shieldgate abuse is part of the design instead of an oversight that the developers left in?

edit: Ugh, I forgot that you’re taking the shieldgate abuse stance to your grave. Don’t bother responding, I don’t think this needs to go on any longer than it has already. For what it’s worth, I do appreciate that you kept your posts brief

[(NSW)warfare3376]

54 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

how can you know what a non-wrecked game even looks like and then claim that shieldgate abuse is part of the design instead of an oversight that the developers left in?

Because the mechanic has been around unchanged for 3 years now. Tell me do you think that this shield gate "abuse" is the sole reason these overturned map nuking builds are able to exist, tell me do you really think the thermal sunder/null star titainias you see in pub fissures, the ones jam packed with range and str/dura with no survivability and maybe a decaying key are even taking damage in the 1st place to shield gate at all as they are nuking everything in the map in under a minute? But no, here you go saying that I have no idea what the hell Im talking probably cuz you have nothing left because just maybe in reality youre the one who doesnt know what theyre talking about, and with that again goodbye.

[(NSW)Greybones]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Because the mechanic has been around unchanged for 3 years now. Tell me do you think that this shield gate "abuse" is the sole reason these overturned map nuking builds are able to exist, tell me do you really think the thermal sunder/null star titainias you see in pub fissures, the ones jam packed with range and str/dura with no survivability and maybe a decaying key are even taking damage in the 1st place to shield gate at all as they are nuking everything in the map in under a minute? But no, here you go saying that I have no idea what the hell Im talking probably cuz you have nothing left because just maybe in reality youre the one who doesnt know what theyre talking about, and with that again goodbye.

Sure. See you around

[Rakosta_Kai]

8 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Because the mechanic has been around unchanged for 3 years now.

It is a mechanic or an exploit?

I don't think DE has ever ratified on this one and you might want to get them to commit as they have stomped on things they eventually deemed as exploits that were even older.