The Rhino buffs: I am concerned, as a hardcore Rhino main, and once a revenant lover.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

44 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

It is a mechanic or an exploit?

I don't think DE has ever ratified on this one and you might want to get them to commit as they have stomped on things they eventually deemed as exploits that were even older.

It is a mechanic, and its no different from speeva. Everyone using this excuse of "its an exploit because decaying key is meant to be a hindrance not a buff" always ignore the fact that speedva or negative puncture/impact rivens also exist. 

And DE is fully aware of that interaction as well, and honestly how can they not considering the many many guides on youtube on it and how much its brought up on these forums asking it to be nerfed, like this is not some hidden exploit that has gone under DEs radar for this long. Theres also evidence in game that suggest this further and thats if you take the decaying key into duviri circuit the key is disabled as you can not use your gear wheel in circuit, however if you take the key into sanctuary onslaught which like circuit also disables your gear wheal the key does not get disabled.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

God you are really clinging onto that video like its some big gotcha moment huh. But in only proves the fact that you ignore everything that isnt "oh he pressed 2 and is now invulnerable". You ignore the fact that during a good portion of that vid he actually is not being shot at, you ignore the fact that every time he does get in the way of enemy fire and his molt he has to cast it earlier the other times, you ignore the fact that if he fails to recast molt in time for whatever reason he can take damage and potentially die which actually does happen need I remind you, and you are ignoring the fact that he is in fact not face tanking, this is face tanking. Notice the difference?

It is called evidence. The video showed your claims were wrong regarding being unable to build Efficiency (the stat) into a shield gating build or needing a "hyper active" playstyle when using a Shield Gating build. Both videos provide examples of face-tanking. Instead of owning up to your incorrect statements, you are now trying to change your narrative and stance in order to pretend you weren't wrong.

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I like how you trying to prove me wrong you instead do the exact opposite. Thats my whole point, you can not just sit still and face tank you have to be doing other things like moving and jumping around, or constantly be ccing enemies around, or distract enemies by some means you have to do other things its not just some magic invincibility.

Your original points were wrong. I showed they were wrong. Again, you are now trying to pretend your point was something else. Trying to change the narrative. You are also trying to pretend face-tanking only means standing still and doing absolutely nothing else, ever, which it doesn't. Face-tanking refers to surviving mainly by way of tanking enemy attacks and surviving due to durability mechanics in play, instead of other survivability mechanics such as dodging incoming attacks by way getting out of the way due to fast movement. It does not exclude all other actions as you pretend it does.

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

So tell me what do you do in a health tank build? You tank a certain amount of damage then spend resources to heal back up so you can continue to tank more damage. What do you do with a shield gate build? Right the exact same thing but much more fast paced.

I press buttons to recuperate health so I can continue to tank with a health tank build. With Revenant I press buttons to recuperate Mesmer Skin so I can continue to tank with Mesmer Skin. With Shield Gating I press buttons to recuperate Shields so can continue to tank. Just because these different mechanics have some similarities do not mean they are the same. You can't dismiss the differences (in this case rather impactful differences) when comparing things and then call it the same as a result. By your logic one may as well say Mesmer Skin is the same as health tanking as well, since one spends resources to gain back the Mesmer Skin charges so one can continue to tank more damage as well. You need to consider the differences along with similarities.

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Thing you fail to understand is that efficiency doesnt work in all builds. warframes have varying amounts of shields, yes some frame have an easier time with shield gating than others but that does not represent shield gating as a whole to every other frame theres many factors that go into that still blatantly ignored.

On 2023-07-29 at 10:48 PM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

the downside is that you cant run efficiency on your builds because it would prevent you from fully replenishing your shields in 1 cast.

I did not claim efficiency works on all builds. I refuted the nonsense you spouted in the quote above, when you claimed one can't run efficiency on shield gating builds. This nasty habit of yours in which you try to rewrite the narrative after you've been shown to be wrong seems to be on full display now, with you going so far as to try and claim I don't account for things I already explicitly accounted for:

On 2023-07-31 at 9:41 AM, Silligoose said:

Adjust efficiency and/or ability used for the purpose of shield replenishment accordingly if looking to use less shield-replenishing mods, frames with other base shield values, another ability, non-maxed efficiency builds etc.

It is pretty sad to see how willing you are to bend the truth or straight up lie in an attempt to cover up the hole of foolishness you've dug, but here you are still digging away. Let's continue...

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Again, player type 3 mentality. You dont care about the actual facts of what goes into tanking that much damage and you ignore the fact that in all relevant content health taning does in fact do the exact same thing, you only focus on what it does in a lvl cap situation in which need I remind you DE themselves have said they will never balance the game around so the fact this excuse is being used so much is absurd.

I focus on how mechanics have a both a positive and a negative impact on the game and its health, how it affects various levels of play, as well as how it can affect the future. Most players who say they get bored of Warframe typically do so because they find Warframe too easy. In the video I linked, this issue was already known and stated by @[DE]Rebeccayears ago. To remedy this situation, DE needs to present a higher level of challenge. Due to various imbalances in the game, such as practical effective immortality for a prolonged time, the tools at DE's disposal to present more challenging content is decreased. This in turn leads to them not being able to present more challenging content, unless they bypass/negate/invalidate/mitigate the imbalanced mechanics, of which there are many in various systems of the game. What happens when various imbalances are bypassed and DE wants to present more challenging content? We get an eroded version of Warframe in which the various mechanics that grants this game not only variety, but depth, are negated completely. This in turn devalues the power players have accumulated, skills they've developed, the progression made in a progression-style game. It is not healthy for the game to have all these imbalances, as it alienates players who progressed to lategame/endgame. Archons being immune to many Warframe abilities is not healthy for the game. Overguard, found on what tends to generally be the most dangerous enemies in mission (Eximus), negating damage type bonusses and being immune to various forms of cc is not healthy for the game. Acolytes arbitrarily not being incapacitated by abilities that usually do incapacitate enemies, such as Bastille or Rhino stomp, but being incapacitated by something like Ensnare, is not healthy for the game. Having the most challenging content be in a main quest line such as TNW, instead of an optional endgame mode, is not healthy for the game. Shield Gating having the various negative impacts on Warframe, is not healthy for the game. These thigns are not healthy, because it leads to an endgame that doesn't build on the mechanics of the game and instead invalidates them.

I don't want DE to balance around level cap. I want them to balance around the highest levels of encouraged content, which should be in an optional mode. I want there to be a challenge there, not because I shy away from the power available to me, not because I nerf my own gear as I currently do, but because DE sets the balance so that a real challenge can be found without having to do endurance runs of an hour or more. I want to experience it from the first minute, without having to negate various mechanics that make this game enjoyable. Without DE having to resort to cheap tricks and silly mechanics. Without mass depth erosion. I want them to present an endgame within encouraged content (up to SP rotation C, or a new optional hard mode) that builds on the mechanics this game presents and necessitates the synergistic use of those mechanics. Not only does Shield Gating not do that very well and renders various mechanics moot with its current potential, but it is also a band-aid used as an excuse to neglect balance pertaining to relative frame durability in comparison to one another and it limits what DE can present as a challenge too greatly.

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Requires kills to have that energy drop and energize has a 15 second cooldown. Also, they take up value space in a build in which shouldnt be necessary if shield gating was as op as you claim it is and doesnt require extra stuff to work right?

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Energy restores have a 1 minute cooldown in sp and zenurik can actually hinder your shield gating ability if you unlocked inner might. If you didnt unlock inner might congrats you sill wont be able to face tank though raw shield gate spam and the 5 energy a second is not enough to endlessly spam and ability every 1.3 secs even with efficiency and at that point why not just use vazarin.

I claim Shield Gating is OP due to the ability to chain the mechanic. and the consequences thereof. I said this at teh start. Again you try to create false narratives. I listed various methods of energy regen as it seems you struggle to comprehend how shield gating builds can be sustained with extremely frequent ability use. Seems the one who fails to factor in different mechanics and options is you, otherwise you wouldn't be making the so many false claims which can only stem from a lack of understanding of synergistic use. Your questions and claims are why I don't think you really have much experience, or understanding of Shield Gating and its potential due to the game's other mechanics. 

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Downright false, in all relevant content and hell even an hour into a sp survival if you put yourself in a dangerous spot you can easily die if you make a mistake where as if youre using a very tanky health build theres much more room for error. And thats ignoring the fact the bulkier frames can also shield gate themselves provided its not inaros nidus or kullervo tho both nidus and now kullervo have other one hit protection "gate" gate effects.

What I said wasn't downright false. Upper limits of potential practical performance need to be considered when discussing the balance of mechanics and whether they are OP - something you don't do.

If we are going to count an hour of Survival as "relevant", let's throw an hour of Void Cascade, or Void Flood, or Circuit in there. It ain't quite level cap (though it gets very close), but it is a couple of thousand levels in and frames like Nidus and Inaros simply cannot tank as well as a Shield Gate Banshee or Shield Gate Gyre. 

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Higher defense stats were always a hinderance for extremely high lvl content even before shield gating.

No they weren't always a hinderance. At a point they simply no longer help. What was considered "extremely high-level content" also changed over the years due to power creep and how far more people can get.

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

On 2023-08-02 at 1:41 PM, Silligoose said:

importantly, as mentioned before, leads to a foundational balancing mechanic, enemy damage, not a viable tool for balancing anymore.

True, never has been and never will be.

This is eye opening. You don't think enemy damage was, and still is, used as a balancing mechanic? Why do you think different enemies do different amounts of damage? Why do you think enemy damage increases with enemy levels? It has everything to do with balance and it being used as a balancing mechanic! It is a fundamental balancing mechanic in not only Warframe, but many, many games with progression-styled mechanics.

Do you realize you thinking enemy damage output has never been a balancing mechanic exposes how little you understand about balance? I already had my doubts that you don't know much about Shield Gating's impact on balance, or, to be frank, how to properly make use of Shield Gating chaining, but it is becoming rather clear that the concept of balance and how various mechanics influence it, is not within your grasp at this point. If you mature, learn to accept when you are wrong and learn from that, it might be, but currently it is not.

On 2023-08-03 at 12:36 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Alright explain how that same style can be achieved and actually work in the horde shooter that is warframe where you are constantly surrounded by enemies and basically never not being shot at, and on top of that keep in mind these enemies can one hit you at very high lvls (which is what shield gating was specifically designed for) so tell me how you balance a mechanic around those extreme lvls without trivializing the rest of the like shield gating supposedly does. Again shield gating has been around for 3 years now and has not been changed, theres a reason for that.

By addressing the massive discrepancy regarding relative potential Warframe durability in relation to one another. It is neigh impossible to balance the game when some frames get obliterated multiple times over by hits that other frames can tank pretty easily. Once that is done DE can present more challenging endgame content in an optional challenge mode. With good balance, damage from enemies at endgame would lead to the tanks still being threatened, but the squishies won't get obliterated by those hits. This in turn, means that the squishies do not have to cling to their own survivability tools as much as they currently have to, freeing up greater variety in viable playstyles - it would still be quite important as good endgames necessitate the synergistic use of tools available, but they wouldn't have to cc everything almost all the time in order to survive or use a mandatory shield gate loadout in order to survive the toughest content (which is a mechanic that would no longer needed and potential to chain it can be deleted along with the imbalances it brings). This in turn allows DE to introduce content that challenges other survivability tools, since challenging those survivability tools do not mean death sentences (it still wouldn't excuse the travesty that is Overguard).

Do not mistake endless SP missions with max spawn rates and toned down AI for all of frame-gameplay. One is not almost constantly being shot at in Warframe. One is not constantly surrounded in Warframe. At least get these basics right. Stop presenting blatant lies. They will not prove your fallacious claims. Anyone with some experience in this game can see straight through them.

It is natural for games with progression-style mechanics to lead to a situation in which lower-level, or most of the content, is trivialized with high level gear. Let's not pretend most of the content in Warframe doesn't get trivialized by loadouts that can handle "extreme" levels. Let's not pretend lategame builds don't trivialize encouraged content (SP up to Rot C).

Shield Gating being around for years and not being changed does not point to it being fine. CC-chaining and subsequent stunlocking of enemies was in the game for years and it was not fine. According to DE, Condition Overload applied damage multiplicatively instead of additively for years... it was not fine. We still get instances of being out of bounds on some maps despite a roof being above it or a clear platform to land on being available below it. As a result, our character gets placed back in bounds and active abilities are cancelled. That has been around for years and it is not fine.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

It is a mechanic, and its no different from speeva. Everyone using this excuse of "its an exploit because decaying key is meant to be a hindrance not a buff" always ignore the fact that speedva or negative puncture/impact rivens also exist. 

It's not a mechanic until DE has directly asserted that they view it as a mechanic—Until they have done that you are basically "whistling in the dark".

You can tell me about what people aren't considering and etc, etc and I can just as easily tell you I've been here all 10 of the years Warframe has been a thing and can say I've seen them do just what you are saying won't happen on multiple occasions.

The difference being that I know I am correct... 

My advice? Post that as a question for a Devstream and see if Reb & Co will commit or find an instance where they have asserted that it's now a feature.

6 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And DE is fully aware of that interaction as well, and honestly how can they not considering the many many guides on youtube on it and how much its brought up on these forums asking it to be nerfed, like this is not some hidden exploit that has gone under DEs radar for this long.

That would make this instance not an ounce different from the previous instances...
That's not being mean, doomsaying, or being aspirational on my part insomuch as it's a fact born of a perspective that you do not appear to possess. No offense.

All in all, I think you have every right to your opinions. Feel free to take what I've told you with a grain of salt...
 

[nslay]

There is no bug being exploited... so it's not an exploit. It's at worst "unintended"... DE is almost certainly not going to ban players for using Decaying Dragon Key for instant Brief Respite shield restoration.

But yes, Dragon Keys were designed to make the game harder. You're not supposed to benefit from them!

The underlying problem is that less shields is better than more shields. DE needs to fix shields in general!

[emmyemi]

Right. The correct course of action here would be to address the problem of max shields being undesirable altogether, not necessarily to mess with the Decaying Key "mechanic." Its interaction with shield gating seems to be an oversight that they haven't addressed because it's relatively minor, doesn't break anything, and in fact quite a lot of people are using it to make up for how useless shields become in late game outside of gating.

[Amolistic.]

yo tf i am just off from this page for like 1 week iirc and now i literally need to read through 8 whole pages of comment, tq everyone

 

On 2023-07-27 at 10:10 PM, (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

You got it in reverse Rhino was one of the first frames that had a kit around tanking, he definitely not a jack of all trades.

But we are taking about now, not past, a frame that can tank, can give dmg, can cc is not jack of all trades and can do anything, even nuke and possibly many combinations with subsumes? Bro being real right now.

 

On 2023-07-27 at 10:34 PM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Why is it that whenever the term "gate" is used people automatically jump onto the whole "just press one button for complete invulnerability" train? Seriously do people not realize just how small of a window 1.3 seconds is for a shield gate let alone a .5 second overguard gate? And comparing an extra .5 seconds of invulnerability per full iron skin cast to a 1 second of invulnerability per mesmer skin charge (which btw has 6 charges at base which is at minimum 6 secs of invulnerability) is just a bit absurd and a hell of an over exaggeration. Rhino has 3 seconds of invulnerability after casting iron skin plus 1.3 secs of shield gate invulnerability provided he is at full shields, that adds up to 4.3 secs at minimum per iron skin cast with no way to increase that time further unlike with mesmer skin. with the extra .5 secs added iron skin now provides 4.8 secs of invulnerability which is basically unnoticeable and still a full 1.2 seconds shorter than revenants mesmer skin unmodded. Rhino was affected the least with the new overgaurd changes, could hardly even call it a buff. Also btw neither rhino nor revenant are "tank", traditionally tanks as a role draw in aggro on top of being able to withstand said aggro and neither rev nor rhino do that all they do is reduce the damage they take which is a trait shared by a lot of other warframes.

People really got to stop freaking out about shield or overguard or whatever other gates that come out and maybe learn what it actually is and does. And also btw if full on invulnerability was so game breakingly broken op then frames like assimilate nyx or valkyr would be dominating the meta however they are not, in fact quite the opposite.

...i do not freak out. Why even. Do you bother to read the essay at all. Plus the way you explain how his iron skin should work is incorrect. You lack understanding. 

"no way to increase that time"....do the 3s invul phase exist for fake? So many people don't understand that iron skin HAS A 3 SECOND ABSORPTION PHASE.

3s is the absorption phase, and after that your iron skin is set, in cases where you stand still, you gonna get 3s + 3s at base, and rolling guard with 3s stalling the iron skin hp from dropping, and 1,3s + 0.5s gate, cast iron skin again in that 0.5s gate, do the 3s strat, press 4 that last for base 8s after counting to 3, rolling guard again for stalling when stomp is about to run out or you about to jump into a dense area but you don't want iron skin recast. The 0.5s means that now you can actually skill over it and actually cast iron skin in that time period, losing 0 shields.

His 4 is a no ded everyone shut up button. 25m no LoS. You can just reach to a point where you are just being revenant but your press more buttons.

But you are not standing still, you gonna jump around. In total, should you have around 70-75% of a revenant's total survivability.

 

AND Rhino is a traditional tank. Iron skin draws aggro, and increase your threat level when active, not like mesmer skin, and many many frames that have some sort of tanking. Your threat level spike insanely high and straight up override the threat level of defense target/objs when recasting iron skin.

If you play Rhino, you will realize that when you are in an archon hunt, the archon just keep chasing you and like they have a beef with you.

 

And honestly, my point is that:

"Rhino is a frame that pretty much excels everywhere else and not just a haha me no ded frame, revenant itself is literally that gimmick. If you keep indirectly buffing a frame's tank viability that has so much possibility in other place with tank surprisingly being his weakest part even though he sits well at second place, you are going to give born an absolute monster. but I guess no people knew this since 90%, even 95% of rhino players play for that overrated, bad iron skin setup. So many stalling techs you can do with rhino now, little problems that limits his potential gone boom to nothing."

 

You just don't understand how a monster he is right now. Try it.

Playing him religiously for 1.5 year and still finding new techs and combination with him, and I am pretty scared what he could actually become at this point. A FRAME HAVING 2nd best tank ability in game and actually fit into the role of "tank", the best consistent buff you can ever have, a crowd control SO potent and so broken that you can basically outclass any frame's CC ability except limbo, Overguard? NO Fs given at all. Acolytes being jokes in front of him, chart bosses are just ezpz and having pretty much half of the total subsume at his disposal, nourish roar, thermal sunder roar, wrathful advance roar, whatever roar you can think of at this point.

No frame can straight up having 3 best of the best abilities in their respective category.

 

On 2023-07-28 at 3:06 AM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

DE just made Styanax a jack of all trades overguard tank as well. 

Cool, but the icy avalanche issue persists. The lack of scaling potential.

But to be honest though, sty really needs that survivability, giving a frame "Rhino's iron skin 'moving aggro draw' mechanics" is really bad without massive survivability backing it up. He really need some cc to squeeze out some breathing space for himself. And due to very high shield and not so fast shield regain way, you cant really shield gate well too...

This should remedy the issue, but until prob 400-500ish.

You will reach to a point where it is completely unsustainable, and solely rely on that 0.5s gate and occasional 1.3s gate, plus rolling guard for overguard hp stall.

Frost can kind of play around with this, but I don't think sty really can since you are literally forced into no end 4 spam, and by that time, your 4 is not going to kill anything fast since hp also scaled, and the lack of cc starts to become a prominent issue.

 

On 2023-07-27 at 11:43 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

Rhino is at no risk of breaking the game.  Revenant's survival scales infinitely, and with more ease than any frame depending on gating.

That said, they're both good, and it's not like players of one frame are going to jump ship to the other over some mild buffs.  Presumably most players play Rhino instead of Revenant (or vice versa) because there's something about that playstyle that appeals to them.  A minor balance shift isn't going to change that.

No risk at breaking the game. Realest comment I've ever seen. Do you read my essay at all. (I assume you just jump to tldr....)

[of course revenant should be easier in being not ded, or else I am going to question DE's balancing team. So as Revevant's Survivability, Rhino also scale infinitely, since 3s absorb phase exist, and any recast and purposely taking huge dmg on charge phase tech exist. You just need a Rhino stomp and possibly rolling guard to match 70-75% even 80% of revenant's survivability.]

 

Yes, 2nd best tank with best consistent buff aka roar, and a CC that eclipses over 99% of CC-included/related frame except limbo, making overguarded enemies a joke, acolytes including violence a joke, chart bosses or any sort of mini-bosses a joke. Demolysts? What's that?

Cant nuke? What about thermal sunder, you think it is just some normal scaling? Nonono...what about triple exponential dip? Wave 14+ ESO? Too easy. Imagine being a top tier nuker as a tank.

Oh no we aren't ending yet, nourish roar. Let us spawn in some warframe specters, khal squad, and proceed to give nourish and roar buff to them , and afk in sp surv for 1hr. Very engaging gameplay. How about being the most energy given teammate in a squad by being a tank, buffing the hell out of your teammates with two S+ tier buffing abilities, give them cc, dmg, energy, and moar dmg.

Aquablades rhino. Funny slash, no comment.

Pillage Rhino being Pillage Rhino.

 

So so so many combinations.

Oh duviri content? Eximus wave spam in defense mission? Massive skill issue, just press Rhino Stomp. Exca towers boom after 3 hits? High range Rhino stomp before they come close, nobody gonna hurt your towers. Oh imagine bringing thermal sunder rhino here, i would like to see that scaling go even more nuts...3.5x instead of 2 is broken? Hell nah, what about possibly 284% roar with a thermal that makes a 4.84x scaling per clap, into a 23.43x, with just torment twofold, and that 15str per 50 armor thing.

level 2500+??? gonna be joking, 3 clap all haha funny ded, imagine a 300k per tick on a level 2500 eximus on 4th clap.

The only frame that can hold defense mission well after its release. You know how hell it is, and Rhino and limbo make it like you having a cakewalk.

In game, You can essentially go into high level def mission with no much stress, in duviri.

 

This is no longer a minor balance shirt, with overguard, not only rhino wont get knockdown or status procs in charge phase, with arcane avenger finally works on him, and rolling guard being now a proper synergy with his iron skin, and now a 0.5s overguard gate. With him already being insane with many content DE introduces, i am concern that with continuous buffing, it might lead to a sour end for revenant, since you know, i once almost become a rev main.

 

For real though, it is not about the jump ship thing, it is about fairness. With so many new techs Rhino can do now, you are just being more undead and undead is all you do now, with powercreep constantly benefitting him, i really hope that DE don't overbuff Rhino, this is literally on the edge already.

 

On 2023-07-28 at 7:47 PM, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Rhino is used by new players and they are actively pushed towards it so they can learn the game without dying so much on a level 40 planet.

(They obviously don't have arcanes so deaths mean more at that level).

This is a non issue and if revenant and Rhino didn't exist, there would still be many other ways to invincible the game while you play.

 

A lot of people still really think he is a new player frame, and strictly a tank.

This kind of perception is wrong. Because i donno why, two of the most versatile frame (rhino and volt) is literally available for new players.

Please don't just play him as a tank, he can do so many things, yet so many people just make him tank, and rarely anyone utilizes the sheer potential he posses.

 

On 2023-07-29 at 2:47 AM, Learicorn said:

Uhh I don't get it, how exactly is Rhino immortal now?

ok now you face an enemy, you cast iron skin, wait 3s as they attack you, get iron skin after 3s charge phase, instantly rolling guard, count to 3, press rhino stomp before you finish counting 3, shoot, iron skin down? 0.5s gate for cast if you are skilled enough, but should the 1.3s gate help you if you are slow in reaction. Cast iron skin again, repeat the cycle.

this combo should bring you 12-17s of total undead period. And considering you adding in movements, should you have no issue with level cap, and could be more depends on how long rhino stomp lasts.

It relies on your skill though.

 

On 2023-07-29 at 8:43 AM, nslay said:

I actually think shield gating is pretty clever! It's definitely not perfect since you can still die to Toxin. Nasty DoT status effects can also fully wipe your Decaying Dragon Key-affected shields every second the DoT status is active (so you need status immunity or Rapid Resilience or Rolling Guard). I've used it for 1-60 minute SP missions in Star Chart (e.g. Circulus). I use it on my normal Excalibur and I use Radial Blind to instantly recover shields and to take some of the aggro off me... and my status immunity comes from Hideous Resistance. I do something similar with Nekros and Terrify. I don't use shield gating on Khora, but I guess her Whipclaw would make it work nicely there too! Though I don't really feel Khora needs to shield gate to survive reasonable lengths of gameplay (i.e. < 1.5 hours endurance).

It's too bad you can't really use shield gating in SP Circuit outside of a few frames. I view SP Circuit as the more interesting and challenging "end game" content... certainly gives you that 5 hour endurance feel in significantly less time!

With that... I personally don't care what niche ultra long endurance players do to survive in Star Chart... and I equally don't care what players do to survive in 10 minute missions either.

Also, w.r.t. to earlier comments about Rhino being a "jack of all trades" and Revenant a specialized "tank" or whatever, I actually find Revenant to be more of the "jack of all trades" since he can effectively do most mission types by himself. For example, you want to risk using Rhino in SP Circuit Defense? Aside of tanking, Revenant has Enthrall which provides effective-enough CC for Defense. And if you Enthrall a life-steal Eximus, it instantly heals the Defense target... though it can be tricky and RNG to find a life-steal eximus, take its Overguard down without killing it, and then killing one of your existing Thralls fast so you have room to Enthrall the life-steal Eximus... and hope you do it fast enough and aimed correctly when you do Enthrall. So yeah, Revenant can tank infinite damage and also defend stuff better than Rhino.

Risk using Rhino in SP circuit defense?????? RHINO IN DUVIRI IS JUST FREE REAL ESTATE AT THIS POINT...Rhino stomp is a thing. Imagine struggling with Eximus spam, can't relate with my high range rhino stomp build, Thrax units? Duviri units? What is that, never had issue.

Duviri Excavation is also a joke, who can even hurt your towers when your enemies are either in air, or froze in place.

S+ performance all over the place. Survivability? Check. Damage buffing? Nourish Roar combo is a thing. CC? Just...Rhino Stomp.

 

Revenant Provides enough CC with his 1 in defense, real. Speaking any CC in front of Rhino stomp is a utter mistake. I lock down whole rooms at this point, who needs aggro draw. Nobody is even moving. I basically cancelled your cc.

And do you even bother reading through my essay. Every single thing rhino can do, you don't even mention. I mention so many things he is performing better vs Revenant, and you need to have me repeat my words.

At least read some of it. Don't just skip to tldr if you want to comment something, it makes you look kinda dumb...

You barely understand what rhino's position is...and what does jack of all trade means.

 

Yes, you technically can put him as a jack of all trades, but...specialized, and allow me to dissect what he can do, if you really think he is a jack trade.

let see how he perform in this category vs Rhino.

 

I already said, even CC frames has nothing except limbo if you want to compare CC with Rhino, let alone Revenant. The cc is still nice to have, but it is completely incomparable. Rhino stomp is literally gloom on copious amount of crack, what sentient wrath wish it could be.

Rev 4 nuke is the worst thing you could ever imagine for a nuke. Not only it is a LoS required nuke, it has one of the worst clearing potential and having massive issue clearing something that is on top of you, and below you, and you move significantly slower, cannot jump or change height easily.

I even mention that "Revenant 4 is nothing in front of thermal sunder Rhino". How can you even win against a triple exponential dip scaling that is still 2-3 clapping even after wave 14 ESO, on-par or even outshining dedicated nuke frames and have none of the downsides of danse macarbe? And bringing it to Duviri only makes it go utterly wild, Quadruple exponential times exponential dip with torment twofold, and more str with that decree where 50 armor = +15 str, level 2500 enemies? Funny. Snatching kills from Octavia feels nice.

If you can take roar, why cant I take reave? And you know what is funny? 410 str reave rhino. Oneshotting everyone with 0 viral stacks. Twoshotting Eximus.

And with subsume choices compared, it is just brutal. Rev's 6 vs Rhino's 37 is not a fair competition at all.

And Roar? Roar just make everything work. He gets the full version, the rest? No.

 

I specifically highlighted the line which I quote: "The only edge Revenant had over Rhino is his 2."

That's it. No gimmicks.

What i am worried is that revenant's viability is entirely on his 2, his 1 is ok but not enough to carry his viability.

Rhino in the other hand, can do almost everything with not just finishing it, but with flying colors and utter dominance.

That is why I said "Revenant should be considerably more tank vs Rhino due to this discrepancy."

 

 

On 2023-07-27 at 11:02 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

say what you will, Rhino can't recast Iron Skin without an augment, and needs a seperate augment for it to scale properly,  Revenant can recast whenever he feels like it and needs no augments for Mesmer Skin (but still got one that lets him give 5 stacks of Mesmer Skin to allies, another thign rhino cannot do). to me, saying Revenant has got it bad compared to Rhino seems like twisted logic.

I wouldn't say Revenant is a specialized tank, since his kit also includes a summoning ability (generally most Revenants I see in SPC are using thralls to effectively defend excavators) and also a DPS ability (granted, it's not that strong really but it's still there.). 

as for Rhino, his passive still sucks. I say this as someone who has used Rhino prime more than any other frame and used to run a lot of the Old Void with him; the overguard change is welcome but he seriously needs a new passive as much as many other frames do, maybe more. if that were fixed, then he'd be perfect.

 

You don't want recast. it is 95% of the time pointless and waste of energy. The only time recast is considered when you are doing incidental dmg tanking iron skin hp boosting strat, or maybe toxin conduit, or aggro draw shenanigans. What is the point of recast your still healthy iron skin, just like mesmer skin?

Twisted logic? Again, do you even properly read my essay. Don't just skip to TLDR and proceed to comment, want to comment? Read. lets say you read the essay but still, at least understand the topic before you comment something like this. You look like an absolute dummy with your "saying Revenant has got it bad compared to Rhino seems like twisted logic." with zero real backups of why, and disregard the point of "why I concern". I have different view in things does not mean you can deem my logic twisted.

And here comes your big misunderstanding. Iron skin already scale to level cap. Why do you even bother the charge augment. Do you know that he has a 3s charge phase? Don't tell me you gonna do the very overrated and being so lunatic that you replace his 4 for parasitic armor just to have it fall off around level 600-1000, and ruin his whole kit and build diversity in the process.

That is why he look so mid in many of the people's hands.

There is a combo called cast iron skin, stand still for 3s, rolling guard, count to 3, press stomp before counting 3, shoot, iron skin down, recast in 0.5s if skilled, or 1,3s if you are slow in reaction, same steps, repeat over and over again. EZ level cap.

And Your knowledge only consists of using him a lot in old void. How old is that. How outdated your knowledge is. Don't know if I can trust your words or not.

 

I do agree he needs a new passive, that's all.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Your original points were wrong. I showed they were wrong. Again, you are now trying to pretend your point was something else. Trying to change the narrative. You are also trying to pretend face-tanking only means standing still and doing absolutely nothing else, ever, which it doesn't. Face-tanking refers to surviving mainly by way of tanking enemy attacks and surviving due to durability mechanics in play, instead of other survivability mechanics such as dodging incoming attacks by way getting out of the way due to fast movement. It does not exclude all other actions as you pretend it does.

Face tanking literally means; Basically ‘Face-tanking’ means standing directly in front of an enemy and take all of his attacks with little effort to dodge relying only on active healing or passive defenses to save you while drawing the aggro of said target away from the squishier party members. The video you gave the dude is not taking all of the incoming damage as most of it is redirected towards the molt decoy instead, as seen here and here and extremely obvious here. The shield gate is doing so much less than you think it is, not only did he take damage in the beginning (which whouldve been more deadly if he wasnt literally 1 minute in sp draco ceres) he is also  not taking many hits to need the shield gate much in the 1st place.

 I also took the time count how many times he shield gated in the 1st 5 mins of the surv he demonstrated in and it came out to 43 times which comes out to be about 56 seconds of invulnerability, now since Im human and might have miscounted lets just round it to a full minute or about 46 shield gates. The energy requirement for that minute is about 537-575ish total energy with maximum efficiency build, for reference the same amount of invulnerability that can be obtained via a max efficiency assimilate nyx in the same situation is only about 377. And this is also ignoring the fact that the build used in that vid is the "holy grail" of shield gate builds and made purely for shield gating only which takes up a lot of valuable mod space and renders the gameplay to that of inaros lvls, most player will never build this way in favor of builds with more kpm and more casting of abilities for the sake of using the ability and not just to shield gate with it which leads to the average shield gate builds having a way stricter energy economy. This is what I meant when I said that instead of proving me wrong you only did the opposite and prove my original point which was that people always ignore everything that goes into shield gating and only focus on and overvalue the 1.3 second window of invulnerability.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I press buttons to recuperate health so I can continue to tank with a health tank build. With Revenant I press buttons to recuperate Mesmer Skin so I can continue to tank with Mesmer Skin. With Shield Gating I press buttons to recuperate Shields so can continue to tank. Just because these different mechanics have some similarities do not mean they are the same. You can't dismiss the differences (in this case rather impactful differences) when comparing things and then call it the same as a result. By your logic one may as well say Mesmer Skin is the same as health tanking as well, since one spends resources to gain back the Mesmer Skin charges so one can continue to tank more damage as well. You need to consider the differences along with similarities.

I explain it again since you clearly do not get it. For health tanking when you take damage your damage reduction, your armor, your warframe ability or whatever else will reduce that damage, which delay the time it takes to become fatal, allowing tie to react to heal it back up, cc everything around, take cover, whatever. For shield gating when you take damage your shield will absorb the damage and if it breaks you will be granted a 1.3 second window of invulnerability which delay the time it takes for that damage to be fatal allowing time to react to restore it back up, cc everything around, take cover, whatever. Sure the two are a little different but the concept is the same, and yea since you keep bringing it up, yes to a lesser degree mesmer skin is also similar to health tanking. You claim Im dismissing the differences and calling them the same but you are doing the opposite, you are dismissing the similarities and calling them different.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I focus on how mechanics have a both a positive and a negative impact on the game and its health, how it affects various levels of play, as well as how it can affect the future. Most players who say they get bored of Warframe typically do so because they find Warframe too easy. In the video I linked, this issue was already known and stated by @[DE]Rebeccayears ago. To remedy this situation, DE needs to present a higher level of challenge. Due to various imbalances in the game, such as practical effective immortality for a prolonged time, the tools at DE's disposal to present more challenging content is decreased. This in turn leads to them not being able to present more challenging content, unless they bypass/negate/invalidate/mitigate the imbalanced mechanics, of which there are many in various systems of the game.

You see this power fatigue you have brought up multiple times now has happened long before shield gating was a thing, in fact that video you are using was made before shield gating was added to the game. Whats truly unbalanced about the game is the enemy scaling, shield gating was necessary as prior to it you would get randomly one hit all the time and the amount of viable frames/builds were very few. And again, shield gating is not immortality, it demands you to react to damage you take, dont react in time and you die. And remember every time you refresh your shield gate thats time taken away from doing something else like reloading your gun or swinging a melee. The reason you probably think theres no counter to shield gating is because theres just no other gameplay mechanics that really require much attention at all or takes a little time to do, its just killing brainless hordes of enemies for the most part.  There are other aspects of difficulty besides just enemy damage and ehp but for warframe that basically is all we have at the moment.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

This is eye opening. You don't think enemy damage was, and still is, used as a balancing mechanic? Why do you think different enemies do different amounts of damage? Why do you think enemy damage increases with enemy levels? It has everything to do with balance and it being used as a balancing mechanic! It is a fundamental balancing mechanic in not only Warframe, but many, many games with progression-styled mechanics.

Do you realize you thinking enemy damage output has never been a balancing mechanic exposes how little you understand about balance? I already had my doubts that you don't know much about Shield Gating's impact on balance, or, to be frank, how to properly make use of Shield Gating chaining, but it is becoming rather clear that the concept of balance and how various mechanics influence it, is not within your grasp at this point. If you mature, learn to accept when you are wrong and learn from that, it might be, but currently it is not.

The game was simply designed to not be possible after a certain point. After you reach the point where enemies start one hitting you how does it get more difficult from there? That lvl is what 500? 600? Theres still way more to go till you hit lvl cap so therefore enemies damage is no longer contributing to the difficulty and the only thing left is bloated health and armor values.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

By addressing the massive discrepancy regarding relative potential Warframe durability in relation to one another. It is neigh impossible to balance the game when some frames get obliterated multiple times over by hits that other frames can tank pretty easily. Once that is done DE can present more challenging endgame content in an optional challenge mode. With good balance, damage from enemies at endgame would lead to the tanks still being threatened, but the squishies won't get obliterated by those hits. This in turn, means that the squishies do not have to cling to their own survivability tools as much as they currently have to, freeing up greater variety in viable playstyles - it would still be quite important as good endgames necessitate the synergistic use of tools available, but they wouldn't have to cc everything almost all the time in order to survive or use a mandatory shield gate loadout in order to survive the toughest content (which is a mechanic that would no longer needed and potential to chain it can be deleted along with the imbalances it brings). This in turn allows DE to introduce content that challenges other survivability tools, since challenging those survivability tools do not mean death sentences (it still wouldn't excuse the travesty that is Overguard).

Here the thing I dont think you understand, if you buff up squishier frames durability relative it wont do much of anything as the tankiest frames already get completely obliterated in high lvl content. And if you balance the enemies around these new values there would be basically nothing that can threaten the tanks with the amount of healing options we have access to currently, health tanking would become so much more absurdly broken than shield gating supposedly currently is. And lets just say that it somehow does reach this perfect balance you speak of we would still be in the exact same situation as we are in now with shield gating and actually might be worse, the higher you go and the harder the content gets the squishier frames will always fall of sooner than the tankier ones than from there its battle of which of those tankier frames/builds can survive the best as the lvls go higher and higher and whichever one that is will become the new meta and the new "requirement" for the hardest content in the game just like how shield gating currently is the current "requirement" even tho it is possible to get to lvl cap without it as people have done so in the past its just far more difficult and requires very specific strategies. And also what you described was basically what shield gating did, tankier frames can tank a larger amount of damage than squishier ones can on top of their shield gate  allowing them to be more reckless and get away with it more whereas squishy frames dont have as much extra protection under their shield gate so they have to be more careful when their shield does break and react to it faster but at the same time they wont get obliterated by the same damage that a bulkier frame easily tank. And shield gating has made a lot more diverse builds and playstyles much more viable and dont require hoops to jump through to just stay alive all while encouraging more active play.

[Amolistic.]

On 2023-07-31 at 3:55 PM, Silligoose said:

Thank you.

It seems some players try to paint this picture that Shield Gating is far harder than it actually is. I agree it is a shame that Shield Gating, or Protective Sling spam becomes our only option. I was hoping that DE would look at the durability mechanics and balance it better, but with the latest change to Overguard and them introducing another gate, I suppose they are going to continue to feed into band-aids.

Revenant... oh boy, he is broken OP and while I do feel he is more unhealthy than Rhino, even Rhino is rather unhealthy in my opinion, due to his effective immortality without having to use a Shield Gating build and the massive damage boost he can grant. I believe many of the balance issues are as a result of the intensity/effectiveness of a mechanic, together with effective duration one can achieve. Invulnerability mechanics can be ok as long as their effective duration is kept in check, which at present isn't really the case.

Rhino himself is not only quite unhealthy in terms of tank viability, most of it are basically needing you to earn it by playing with timings and movements, rolling guard stalls, and good iron skin charging skill and know when to get abnormal amounts of iron skin hp by recasting at the right period, like blitz eximus shockwave, yes it might seem that rhino is not as unbalanced as Revenant, But if you take his 4 into account, can you imagine a frame being tank, already having a very very good dmg buffing, and yet for some godforsaken reason, you managed to give him a CC ability so goddamn broken you make every frame with a CC cry in a corner, with the exception being limbo, oh lets not speak subsumes, the goddamn amount of subsumes i can use are not real.

You know how unhealthy this is? Who needs to switch frame to fit some situations. Just play Rhino for every single content. Trust me, change your mod path to fit the situations and boom, Rhino does everything for you with flying colors. Oh lets not even mention how a tank can become an ESO menace by subsuming thermal sunder, with a abnormal triple exponential dip, ravaging wave 14 eso like you are the next best nuker in the game.

Rhino is slowly becoming the antithesis of "You should switch around frames for certain situations.", his unhealthiness is not shown to many, but if you understand him and utilize the potential he has, you will soon realize how tf a frame like this even exist.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-05 at 6:57 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Face tanking literally means; Basically ‘Face-tanking’ means standing directly in front of an enemy and take all of his attacks with little effort to dodge relying only on active healing or passive defenses to save you while drawing the aggro of said target away from the squishier party members. The video you gave the dude is not taking all of the incoming damage as most of it is redirected towards the molt decoy instead, as seen here and here and extremely obvious here. The shield gate is doing so much less than you think it is, not only did he take damage in the beginning (which whouldve been more deadly if he wasnt literally 1 minute in sp draco ceres) he is also  not taking many hits to need the shield gate much in the 1st place.

 I also took the time count how many times he shield gated in the 1st 5 mins of the surv he demonstrated in and it came out to 43 times which comes out to be about 56 seconds of invulnerability, now since Im human and might have miscounted lets just round it to a full minute or about 46 shield gates. The energy requirement for that minute is about 537-575ish total energy with maximum efficiency build, for reference the same amount of invulnerability that can be obtained via a max efficiency assimilate nyx in the same situation is only about 377. And this is also ignoring the fact that the build used in that vid is the "holy grail" of shield gate builds and made purely for shield gating only which takes up a lot of valuable mod space and renders the gameplay to that of inaros lvls, most player will never build this way in favor of builds with more kpm and more casting of abilities for the sake of using the ability and not just to shield gate with it which leads to the average shield gate builds having a way stricter energy economy. This is what I meant when I said that instead of proving me wrong you only did the opposite and prove my original point which was that people always ignore everything that goes into shield gating and only focus on and overvalue the 1.3 second window of invulnerability.

Here are searches for face-tanking in video games. Google. Bing. Seeing as this is a slang term encountered across various gaming genres, from RPG's to even FPS games, and as such there is no official definition that I'm aware of (shockingly Urban dictionary isn't considered an official definition), best one can do is assimilate the information available and apply it, not cherry-pick one definition, the put "all" in bold, then pat yourself on the back.

The build in the video is not the "holy grail", as explained in the video. The creator himself refers to it as a scuffed build as well. Pay attention.

On 2023-08-05 at 6:57 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

I explain it again since you clearly do not get it. For health tanking when you take damage your damage reduction, your armor, your warframe ability or whatever else will reduce that damage, which delay the time it takes to become fatal, allowing tie to react to heal it back up, cc everything around, take cover, whatever. For shield gating when you take damage your shield will absorb the damage and if it breaks you will be granted a 1.3 second window of invulnerability which delay the time it takes for that damage to be fatal allowing time to react to restore it back up, cc everything around, take cover, whatever. Sure the two are a little different but the concept is the same, and yea since you keep bringing it up, yes to a lesser degree mesmer skin is also similar to health tanking. You claim Im dismissing the differences and calling them the same but you are doing the opposite, you are dismissing the similarities and calling them different.

I account for similarities and differences. Despite similarities, they are not the same. Apples and oranges are both fruit. They are both edible. They have similarities, but they are not the same. Durability attained by way of health tanking, shield gating, even Mesmer Skin, have similarities, but they are not the same. 

On 2023-08-05 at 6:57 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

You see this power fatigue you have brought up multiple times now has happened long before shield gating was a thing, in fact that video you are using was made before shield gating was added to the game. Whats truly unbalanced about the game is the enemy scaling, shield gating was necessary as prior to it you would get randomly one hit all the time and the amount of viable frames/builds were very few. And again, shield gating is not immortality, it demands you to react to damage you take, dont react in time and you die. And remember every time you refresh your shield gate thats time taken away from doing something else like reloading your gun or swinging a melee. The reason you probably think theres no counter to shield gating is because theres just no other gameplay mechanics that really require much attention at all or takes a little time to do, its just killing brainless hordes of enemies for the most part.  There are other aspects of difficulty besides just enemy damage and ehp but for warframe that basically is all we have at the moment.

Shield Gating wasn't necessary - better balance in relative frame durability was necessary. That was, and still is, a problem. A symptom of that imbalance was squishies getting one-shot by damage that tankier frames didn't really care for much. Instead of addressing the problem, DE addressed the symptom, introduced a band-aid solution, Shield Gating, and now they have more imbalances, along with the original imbalance still in the background. There is a reason DE hasn't pushed for Infested missions that scale fast - due to toxin damage and energy leeching, squishies have a terrible time against them if relying on health tanking, or shield gating.

Some enemy scaling formulas are also a problem. There are many imbalances in the game beyond shield gating and enemy scaling. Hopefully DE will address them one day instead of trying to cover them up with more band-aids, though at present it appears they are more willing to use band-aids, which seems to lead to introducing more mechanics that alienate various types of players that enjoy the game, from Overguard, to Damage Attenuation formulas, to changing the functionality of certain damage mods so they don't increase certain damage mechanics... it has become a convoluted mess.

In the early- to midgame there are players who do not have access to the excessive damage and durability lategame players do. The other aspects of difficulty, besides enemy damage and EHP, have a greater impact on their play as a result. As such, the other aspects of survivability, in terms of positioning, movement etc plays a more vital role in success. What this means is the other aspects do play a role in Warframe, but the role diminishes as players become more and more overpowered towards lategame and endgame as a result of poor balance at that point. Midgame is a more challenging and complex experience for many players than lategame and endgame is as a result, which is why they get bored at lategame.

There are counters to Shield Gating, as I've mentioned before as well. Pay attention.

On 2023-08-05 at 6:57 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

The game was simply designed to not be possible after a certain point. After you reach the point where enemies start one hitting you how does it get more difficult from there? That lvl is what 500? 600? Theres still way more to go till you hit lvl cap so therefore enemies damage is no longer contributing to the difficulty and the only thing left is bloated health and armor values.

What you wrote doesn't change that enemy damage is a balancing mechanic.

On 2023-08-05 at 6:57 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Here the thing I dont think you understand, if you buff up squishier frames durability relative it wont do much of anything as the tankiest frames already get completely obliterated in high lvl content. And if you balance the enemies around these new values there would be basically nothing that can threaten the tanks with the amount of healing options we have access to currently, health tanking would become so much more absurdly broken than shield gating supposedly currently is. And lets just say that it somehow does reach this perfect balance you speak of we would still be in the exact same situation as we are in now with shield gating and actually might be worse, the higher you go and the harder the content gets the squishier frames will always fall of sooner than the tankier ones than from there its battle of which of those tankier frames/builds can survive the best as the lvls go higher and higher and whichever one that is will become the new meta and the new "requirement" for the hardest content in the game just like how shield gating currently is the current "requirement" even tho it is possible to get to lvl cap without it as people have done so in the past its just far more difficult and requires very specific strategies. And also what you described was basically what shield gating did, tankier frames can tank a larger amount of damage than squishier ones can on top of their shield gate  allowing them to be more reckless and get away with it more whereas squishy frames dont have as much extra protection under their shield gate so they have to be more careful when their shield does break and react to it faster but at the same time they wont get obliterated by the same damage that a bulkier frame easily tank. And shield gating has made a lot more diverse builds and playstyles much more viable and dont require hoops to jump through to just stay alive all while encouraging more active play. That why I feel DE went this route instead of something else.

The difference in having an upper limit of performance with regards to durability that can be overcome by way of enemy burst damage or DPS as we have with health tanking, and not having an upper limit of performance with regards to durability in terms of being overcome by burst damage or DPS, but instead time, which can effectively be extended to the runtime of the missions, as we have with Shield Gate chaining, Mesmer Skin chaining, Iron Skin chaining, or combinations of other invulnerability mechanics that can be chained, is that an upper limit of durability pertaining to health tanking has a point of failure that can be reached by way of enemy damage output numbers, which would result in the player dying. Since that limit can not only be known, but set, by the developer, they can set the fail-conditions in terms of enemy damage output in conjunction with enemy numbers. This means they can set the point at which players need to start incorporating other mechanics in order to survive, from movement, to positioning, to terrain use, to cc, to eliminating threats etc and they can have the point of failure be reached more linearly with enemy level increases. Since effective immortality chaining options have no point of failure in durability, these tools cannot be used and as such staying alive via these builds doesn't require as much emphasis on the other survivability mechanics such as movement, or positioning, or terrain use etc. As long as enough energy is available to continue chaining effective immortality and the mechanic isn't bypassed, the game becomes more simplistic.

Due to enemy attack methods in Warframe, the key is keeping enemy damage low enough so as to not one-hit a squishy at a given durability, but a couple of hits depending on how long DE wishes for that squishy to be able to last against x amount of enemies, what type of telegraphs there are etc and then balancing durability options to not scale absurdly high from that point for tankier loadouts. Since an upper limit of failure is known, DE can present a situation in which the continuous DPS from enemies will breach the upper limit of durability leading to failure, necessitating the use of other tools at the player's disposal to lessen incoming DPS, from cc, to movement, to repositioning, to more durability options, to killing enemies etc. This principle is used in many games. It is not new. In some games, ranged squishies are able to last longer because they kill faster from a safer position. In other games, tankier characters last longer.

DE went the shield gate route because it is easier than actually balancing relative frame durability, comparative enemy damage output etc. It is the same reason they introduced Overguard in lieu of balancing cc properly. It is the same reason they implemented damage attenuation in lieu of balancing player damage output properly. They went so far as to introduce Bleed procs for other damage types instead of addressing the imbalances in enemy armour scaling so other damage types can be more competitive with Slash. They don't mind taking short-cuts and sacrificing mechanics in the process. There were a lot of mechanics to sacrifice, but the well is starting to run dry and erosion of gameplay is becoming more prominent.

 

On 2023-08-05 at 11:44 AM, Amolistic. said:

Rhino himself is not only quite unhealthy in terms of tank viability, most of it are basically needing you to earn it by playing with timings and movements, rolling guard stalls, and good iron skin charging skill and know when to get abnormal amounts of iron skin hp by recasting at the right period, like blitz eximus shockwave, yes it might seem that rhino is not as unbalanced as Revenant, But if you take his 4 into account, can you imagine a frame being tank, already having a very very good dmg buffing, and yet for some godforsaken reason, you managed to give him a CC ability so goddamn broken you make every frame with a CC cry in a corner, with the exception being limbo, oh lets not speak subsumes, the goddamn amount of subsumes i can use are not real.

You know how unhealthy this is? Who needs to switch frame to fit some situations. Just play Rhino for every single content. Trust me, change your mod path to fit the situations and boom, Rhino does everything for you with flying colors. Oh lets not even mention how a tank can become an ESO menace by subsuming thermal sunder, with a abnormal triple exponential dip, ravaging wave 14 eso like you are the next best nuker in the game.

Rhino is slowly becoming the antithesis of "You should switch around frames for certain situations.", his unhealthiness is not shown to many, but if you understand him and utilize the potential he has, you will soon realize how tf a frame like this even exist.

I still view Revenant as the more broken frame, especially when considering base kits, but as mentioned before I agree Rhino is broken as well.

For what it is worth, my Rhino endurance builds didn't make use of the armor stacking tactics to get high Iron Skin values, as even values in the millions get dropped in seconds late in the runs and higher values are obtained by way of the invulnerability period upon activation., plus I just wasn't too interested in the gameplay loop of clumping enemies together.

Rhino Stomp is strong, but in my experience the cc provided by Thralls help keep objectives safer.

Edit:
It pains me to say this, but given the rampant homogenization we've seen regarding frames, it seems DE decided that frames shouldn't really be all that unique and one shouldn't really need to switch them around all that much for certain situations. There are of course differences in frames and some will continue to maintain some sort of signature (eg Frost's Snowglobe), but these days you can choose almost any frame and be a great healer, or a great tank, or do more than enough damage, or strip enemy armour, or be great at cc, or support the team with energy replenishment and usually, due to the myriad of options available via Helminth, modding etc, many of these boxes can be ticked regardless of frame chosen.

I am personally not a fan of this direction, because I believe choices having both strengths and weaknesses lead to more varied gameplay experiences.