For those who enjoyed it for fun, Why couldn't DE add Undertow as a hold option for tidal surge? like they did with bastille?

[Nekomian]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

my point is they used part of the code from the puddle on Grendel and saying that it would be too much upkeep is wierd as they would have to drop grendel entirely as a frame

I can't confirm if they actually did, it would just be my best guess since the abilities of both feast and undertow have similar mechanics of "culling out enemy and storing while damaging". Undertow is much, much more complex than feast since it has its whole damage proxy effect and allows other players' interactions and equipment to affect that output, while feast does not. It's a lot simpler, and even then it's still complained about since to limit disruptions there's limitations on what feast can and can't work on (there's a whole list of enemies and abilities it doesn't synergize with on the wiki).

While they can share some similar enemy / damage tracking code, the upkeep on both of them is vastly different. It's mostly the damage proxy complications, they seem to really struggle with things that redistribute damage (like Zephyr's tornados, which have been broken for a while especially with gas procs) and the time investment that could be put into these abilities alone is considerable. We have so many like, "forced proc on hit" and "trigger mechanic on hit / kill" and other stacking mechanics that just do not play nice with these types of things, and every time they design some new one they have to make sure it works with these proxies that redistribute the correct damage amount or provide buffs as intended.

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

7 hours ago, Naroxas44 said:

While they can share some similar enemy / damage tracking code, the upkeep on both of them is vastly different.

Well, I'll be sure to be consistent in complaining about the removal of Undertow so they can throw resources at it once DE becomes much richer than it is now and I can go back to enjoying the game the same way I've had for years.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

In terms of actual gameplay where you try to utilize it as "intended", the puddle was insanely slow, energy hungry, barely interactive gameplay, and personally, super boring.  In terms of what most people I saw were doing with it, it was an AFK tool.

The only reason I could see for keeping it as an option is entirely superficial:  We just got the Hydroid Prime trailer and it features the use of Undertow, which no longer exists.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2023-10-30 at 6:35 AM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

I mean, it's kinda like Nyx Absorb where it could be situationally useful if you needed a breather or wanted to cast abilities while immune to damage.

What?  You mean Nyx, who is GODLY and unkillable, can, with augment, walk freely about the entire map, like a friggin' Terminator, taking even Archons face-to-face without issue whilst dealing a TON of damage, no knockbacks or whatnot from AoE, Glaives, etc?  The Nyx that can instantly strip shields/armor from enemies, even Liches, with the smallest of strength investments?  The Nyx that, even on a map that denies you use of the Gear Wheel, can turn an ENTIRE ROOM of enemies in her personal army in seconds?  Who can turn a heavy gunner into a personal escort turret on legs, boosting its power even further and making it also unkillable?

That Nyx?

Nyx is literally god-tier.  I have no idea what game some people are playing when they complain about these frames x.x

On 2023-10-30 at 2:42 AM, Turritopsis_Dohrnii said:

The doctor tells the patient they are losing their legs to help other people and that there is a much better option for moving rather than using those legs. The patient doesn’t quite understand why he has to do it so he tries to reason why he has to do such a thing. He doesn’t owe anything to anyone else and would like to live his life and use his legs to the fullest since he worked so hard with them despite knowing he probably won’t be winning any competitions or not. The doctor then forcibly amputates the patient without his consent much to the surprise to the patient.

 

The “rework” is akin to amputating someone’s legs but giving him an extremely fancy wheelchair that allows someone to perform so much better than when he had legs. Then pushing the guy off the wheelchair so some other people can use it. The person who had the legs originally now has nowhere else to go. 

 

It’s not murder. He’s definitely still alive! He’s breathing so he must be feeling fine right? Also, what’s wrong with this wheelchair? Why is it so slow? Why don’t we just use the car? *Throws wheelchair at disabled person*

 

“Have fun with your life! We’ll have fun with ours!” *drives off on their two legs with a car* 

 

Now the person with a wheelchair has a choice. He continues living like nothing ever happened even though living will always be completely different from now on or just gives up. He can’t do anything else because it’s not in his power to. 

 

I play the victim because that’s what this is and I have no other options. I’m a living breathing victim of a change that I didn’t want and am now traumatized with no where to turn to. Not allowed to have an experience I cherished and lived side by side for a long time. 

 

Why point out logical reasoning or feedback when even in the recent dev stream it’s not even given a serious thought? 

 

Why punish a long time player of a unique play-style that found the game itself fun and didn’t mind the meta? 

 

Was I too conceited? Did I bring a level of toxic elitism or discomfort to a large base of players for existing? Why did this end up happening? Why can’t I have what I always had enjoyed and other people can have what they always wanted? Why must there be a divide?

 

Must fun always be measured by instant gratification? 

 

I don’t understand. I just don’t understand it. Why couldn’t you leave people to enjoy themselves in their own island when you were already making so many islands already… Why does the hypocritical design just have to bleed everywhere.

My friend, with all due respect, I dunno anything about your IRL experiences, but speaking as someone who has dealt with actual traumas/PTSD.... PLEASE do not act like removal of a video game power is equivalent to "traumatic punishment", yeah?  Reeeeally disrespectful, and it does nothing to help strengthen your point, either.

You are not a "victim".  This not being done TO you.  This is simply a company changing the game they OWN, and allow you to play, so it can continue on for many years to come.

Just because you do not understand it, does not mean it does not make sense.   You probably don't understand every facet of nuclear fusion, either, and yet the Sun continues to shine, day after day, yeah?

Chill.  Take a break.  Then, come back and please enjoy any one of the 54 amazing options for frames to play... or don't.  *shrugs*

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2023-10-31 at 2:06 PM, Turritopsis_Dohrnii said:

Well, I'll be sure to be consistent in complaining about the removal of Undertow so they can throw resources at it once DE becomes much richer than it is now and I can go back to enjoying the game the same way I've had for years.

When it is said that they might not have the resources to continue supporting said skill... DE is not necessarily talking about having MONEY to deal with it.

Coding is complicated. 10 YEARS of code on a single game, update after update, is exponentially moreso.

To maintain one mechanic that exists in the game, and does so only as the ability of a SINGLE frame, out of 54+ frames, that also serves to cause game-breaking issues when trying to grow the game BECUASE of its unique mechanics....   That takes a TON of time, testing, technical work-arounds, etc.

Basically, preserving it would lead to the dev team needing to go WAY out of their to work around this one pothole JUST to do regular updates, which slows the ENTIRE process down, and that just is neither efficient for a studio to do, nor is it logical.

And to top it all off, Hydroid WAS one of the less-popular frames, and thus it made no sense to go out of their way to work around this seldom-used ability on a seldom-used frame, just to keep growing the game that keeps the lights on...

MUCH LESS SO given that this same ability was causing unintended AFK play that goes against the devteam's core values in the game.


I, for one, loved Undertow, and I very seldom used it to just sit (unless I was streaming and needed to catch up to chat, lol), but I DID use it to hop in and out of combat, like I was a pack of aggro orca just leapin' in, smashin' the enemies with my weapons, and then back to the depths where I lurked...  It was definitely unique!  I have ideas on how I THINK they could've worked around it, but I, and this goes for everyone else on these forums...  DO NOT WORK AT DE, and DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT ACTUALLY TOOK BEHIND THE SCENES TO KEEP IT GOING.

So all this speculation that we toss out there, and then subsequently, and unfairly i might add, judge DE by, seems hardly sound, much less kind, as nobody here REALLY knows what it takes to keep this stuff going.


Also, sidenote:  HOW do people keep INSISTING that "Pablo never talked about his reasoning" when he CLEARLY STATED on recent DevStreams the EXACT reasons he was changing things up for Hydroid, not the least of which was the "Enemy Denial", something that frames like Limbo have had addressed in the past, as well.  Heck, that was the same reason Ember and Banshee got some hefty makeovers, since they were essentially shutting down entire tilesets, which was NO fun for others on the teams.

Like, if peeps wanna hate it, hate it.... but don't sit here and lie with a straight face when we're all HERE on the INTERNET where we can hear the words FROM PABLO'S OWN FACEHOLES....     Like, really?


Good grief, peeps need to chill.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 5 horas, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt dijo:

What?  You mean Nyx, who is GODLY and unkillable, can, with augment, walk freely about the entire map, like a friggin' Terminator, taking even Archons face-to-face without issue whilst dealing a TON of damage, no knockbacks or whatnot from AoE, Glaives, etc?  The Nyx that can instantly strip shields/armor from enemies, even Liches, with the smallest of strength investments?  The Nyx that, even on a map that denies you use of the Gear Wheel, can turn an ENTIRE ROOM of enemies in her personal army in seconds?  Who can turn a heavy gunner into a personal escort turret on legs, boosting its power even further and making it also unkillable?

absorb drains all energy from the warframe to prevent any damage and his augment only allows him to use his weapons, walk and roll.
It does NOT have any army, the chaos only confuses the enemies, it does not stop them from attacking you.
What power increase does having a heavy gunner as an ally? The damage they do is miserable, even with their boost, which I don't even know if it works because I don't notice it doing more damage.

Your description sounds more like a revenant, who can have everyone as allies, be invulnerable with his 2, and has no movement or weapon restrictions.

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

7 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

My friend, with all due respect, I dunno anything about your IRL experiences, but speaking as someone who has dealt with actual traumas/PTSD.... PLEASE do not act like removal of a video game power is equivalent to "traumatic punishment", yeah?  Reeeeally disrespectful, and it does nothing to help strengthen your point, either.

The removal of something I used to do regularly with great joy is suddenly gone. What more can I do but play the victim to remind them of what they took away so someday it'll come back? If it strengthens my point or not, if it's futile or not, I'll keep going because it was something I loved.

7 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

You are not a "victim".  This not being done TO you.  This is simply a company changing the game they OWN, and allow you to play, so it can continue on for many years to come.

Just because you do not understand it, does not mean it does not make sense.   You probably don't understand every facet of nuclear fusion, either, and yet the Sun continues to shine, day after day, yeah?

 I just can't help but feel like a victim here. I've only been playing Hydroid and only Hydroid for such a long time and there are so many other Warframes out there... It's hard not to feel this way. But I can understand what you are saying. I'll chill, but I won't stop complaining about losing something that's been such a part of enjoyment in my life. They own Warframe and can change it, but that doesn't make them immune to people speaking their minds.

If you like something enough you'll try to understand it especially when you want to know the root cause of change. I was content before but I can't help but ask these questions when my contentment is lost. I want to know the reasons and many people have given a good glimpse of them when I asked which is a good step to understanding what I want to know.
 

8 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

When it is said that they might not have the resources to continue supporting said skill... DE is not necessarily talking about having MONEY to deal with it.

Coding is complicated. 10 YEARS of code on a single game, update after update, is exponentially moreso.

To maintain one mechanic that exists in the game, and does so only as the ability of a SINGLE frame, out of 54+ frames, that also serves to cause game-breaking issues when trying to grow the game BECUASE of its unique mechanics....   That takes a TON of time, testing, technical work-arounds, etc.

Basically, preserving it would lead to the dev team needing to go WAY out of their to work around this one pothole JUST to do regular updates, which slows the ENTIRE process down, and that just is neither efficient for a studio to do, nor is it logical.

And to top it all off, Hydroid WAS one of the less-popular frames, and thus it made no sense to go out of their way to work around this seldom-used ability on a seldom-used frame, just to keep growing the game that keeps the lights on...

You say this but Warframe has been growing steadily the past years. Of course it made no sense to go out of their way to work around an ability - what if they worked with the ability? Changed it in a way that "suited" the game without killing it's identity? Not nerfed it with no real explanation and then remove it years later? That's what happened to Undertow. It could've been a very used ability for a lot of people if they just did the work and made it appealing.

Are you really saying they had all the time from Undertow's original change up to now that they couldn't figure out how to change the skill that would be satisfactory for everyone? That's over 5-6 years of schedulable time for a talented team of developers for one ability! Do we have to still hold them to the standards of an indie company? Because of we do, I'll definitely understand that. 

8 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

MUCH LESS SO given that this same ability was causing unintended AFK play that goes against the devteam's core values in the game.

This same ability could also be used so many active ways too. If they so desired, they could've changed the ability to be even more active than reactive/AFK-like than just scrapping it. The flexibility of this ability was one of its best points to me.
 

8 hours ago, (PSN)JustJoshinEnt said:

I, for one, loved Undertow, and I very seldom used it to just sit (unless I was streaming and needed to catch up to chat, lol), but I DID use it to hop in and out of combat, like I was a pack of aggro orca just leapin' in, smashin' the enemies with my weapons, and then back to the depths where I lurked...  It was definitely unique!  I have ideas on how I THINK they could've worked around it, but I, and this goes for everyone else on these forums...  DO NOT WORK AT DE, and DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT ACTUALLY TOOK BEHIND THE SCENES TO KEEP IT GOING.

So all this speculation that we toss out there, and then subsequently, and unfairly i might add, judge DE by, seems hardly sound, much less kind, as nobody here REALLY knows what it takes to keep this stuff going.

And now that I lost something I want to know now. No matter how futile it is, I won't give up in asking or forget that this happened.
 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I don't want to make another post about Hydroid rework so people stop thinking I'm complaining, but does anybody know what's the point of the mark other than being a visual nuisance?

Like, the corrosive mark that procs whenever you damage, it feels dumb.

Saryn has 25% status duration, we all know this there shouldn't be a mark about it.

Ash' slash deals extra damage and lasts longer, that's clear as day, we don't need a mark

 

same can be said about Hydroid's passive, he strips armor better with corrosive, what's the point of the mark other than being captain obvious?

[_Eclips3_]

On 2023-10-27 at 10:32 PM, Stormandreas said:

From what we heard on the recent devstream, we can summise they didn't keep undertow because Pablo doesn't like it really.

The main thing he said addressing it was "It's a meme", and that's pretty much it. No clear information, no actual reasoning, just "it's a meme" and "it's hard to maintain" (WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN!?)

Another display of how unprofessional this company can be.