A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[KazeNoKoe]

Well I don't know about the new system being proposed but the criticism about the focus being on drops when it should be on gameplay is spot on. However, I see many players demanding easier drops rather than better gameplay, so it's important to point out that it's not all DE's fault.

[EnDleSsPhantom]

Well I don't know about the new system being proposed but the criticism about the focus being on drops when it should be on gameplay is spot on. However, I see many players demanding easier drops rather than better gameplay, so it's important to point out that it's not all DE's fault.

Very true. But, DE needs to get better at picking out good feedback. There could be one side begging for this system, and the other side could be asking for more mods, weapons, and Warframes. They don't need to stop listening to one side, but rather take both with a grain of salt. The problem is, in my opinion, it seems as though DE is hesitant to change. By this, I don't mean "hey DE peoplez, let's add moar mods, moar warframes, moar weaponz!!!!" I mean like the Armor system. They were hesitant to change that. They're afraid of major changes, with good reason. But without risk, there will be no reward. 

[Rajko]

I think they are simply taking time to assess while other changes have been made.  As I understand it, the skill tree replaced by the mods system was very rudimentary, and I personally never saw the mod system as a final implementation.  

 

It's really difficult to assess how much feedback is taken in by DE and how much is ignored.  My personal opinion is that the focus for the moment is on developing game assets like tile-sets and overhauling the placeholder content, and thus a large amount of development effort is not available to balancing or core mechanics.  

 

Given the amount of positive feedback on this thread, and the number of upvotes, I'm positive that the developers are listening.  

[tmtke]

It's really difficult to assess how much feedback is taken in by DE and how much is ignored.  My personal opinion is that the focus for the moment is on developing game assets like tile-sets and overhauling the placeholder content, and thus a large amount of development effort is not available to balancing or core mechanics.  

 

True. In addition, majority of content creation work is done by another part of the team, only some very basic game design work. The longer term goals in gameplay takes so much more thinking and arguing, as Steve likes to point out in the livestreams. But they are listening, I think only they can't jump right in and change everything, they need to flesh out every aspect of a bigger plan before implementing.

[CaucasianAsianX]

I think that adding the PS4 platform has also taken away a good chunk of time on the development of Warframe. 

[Derpo]

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen, anywhere. theGreatZamboni clearly put his heart into it. Thanks, tGZ.

 

I'm not ready to give up on the mod card system. It's interesting and it takes a lot of effort to maximize. Just maxing Serration is a huge undertaking. I agree that no sane person would slot 'Intruder' or any of dozens of relatively useless mods. Where we differ in our thinking is whether this is such a bad thing. It's like life...are you going to 'invest' time playing online games, or are you going to get a job, an education, and a woman? Likewise, are you going to slot up 'Intruder', or do you think you might get more use out of 'Redirection'? Pretty obvious...but not everyone does the obvious.

 

Would the mod system be improved by adding some version of slot categorization? Frankly, I am pretty sure the mod system can and should be improved. I'm not at all sure that category-specific slots are the way to DO that improving. I think there is value in limiting the number of mods, because it compels the player to make interesting choices. 'Interesting choices' is the very definition of gaming. The limitation of 8 slots is...well, limiting. But without that limitation, where's the choice? I don't think the game would be hurt by the addition of a utility-specific slot or two, but I have no idea, really, what the ramifications would be.

 

We should probably try it and see.

 

Anyway, great post. I'm going to read the OP again and see what else compels me to hammer on my heavily-worn dvorak keyboard.

[Slayblaze]

I think it would be good if DE could clarify a roadmap for Warframe  in one of the livestreams.  We need less speculation about where this game is headed, if anywhere.  If it's not going to go anywhere and all Im looking forward to is dojo cosmetics I'ma gwon bounce mon.

I wouldn't be so sure they have a roadmap at all, maybe a vague idea at best. If you go back and review the evolution of the game since CB patch-by-patch and stream-by-stream from all outward appearances they've kind of been flying by the seat of their pants, not thinking things through very far ahead and making reactionary changes for the most part rather than proactive ones. DE has actually enjoyed some success with that method so why change now? Most of their BIG patches in hindsight haven't really advanced the game forward all that far, even though each major milestone patch seems huge at the time, most of the added content has been mere Bling and flashy shiny objects (like jingling car keys over a babies crib) that the rabid player-base ooohs and ahhhs over while overlooking the fact that its just a slightly different more of the same in a golden package.

 

Not wanting to disrupt players again by making big changes as has happened several times in the past, it's very understandable to just sort of continue on with a development status quo, making little tweaks here and there without rocking the boat too much. We know that the past few months have had two major projects on their drawing board: the PS4 launch and Damage 2.0 with U11. The things currently being worked on are things like net code improvements, new HUD, training section for the codex, improving melee, and course new weapons and skins and frames but still no word on what exactly the plan is for actual endgame content. I'd even settle for just a vague idea at this point. The endgame can't be just endlessly farming for and collecting more mods and blueprints, I have way more faith in DE than to believe that.

[TalonBlue]

I think the DE had this expectation that the PS4 launch would be boon for Warframe but as it stands, the newest reviews reveal the game weaknesses and reading those reviews I agree with them. I think that there is a lot of potential for this game. I don't if its the F2P model that's hindering it, or how much of the information regarding the game is hard to find (I've been playing for a week and I just learned about the codex now), it's repetitive gameplay, or the fact that it is still in beta is the problem. I can't fully enjoy the game because there are too many barriers, some invisible to me that limits me fully experiencing the game.

 

For example, I don't like that I have farm defense missions to get keys, to unlock game content, where the point is to farm that unlocked content, to acquire rare weapons or mods, in order to get...what exactly? The Orokin Void sounds interesting but lacks any story, lore, or interest. If I don't want to farm for Prime versions of weapons I can get from the market, then how does the Void matter to me? That's basically what I feel the game is in a nutshell thus far. A progression system that feels like a hamster wheel, I'm not going anywhere. Re-leveling the same weapons due to Forma resets lengthens that grindy nature of the game. While the gameplay unique and fun at times, it did eventually run dry for me, because I haven't been playing for a month or two until just the last 7 days. The game can't just be a gear obtaining grind.

 

Other than that, after all the UI changes, it still doesn't feel convenient to the player. It's difficult to understand certain parts of the game, because the game doesn't explain itself very well.

 

I still think that gameplay serves as a solid foundation of the game, but I think there serious needs in the areas of UI, player convenience, getting the information the players need, a reduction in the grind, and fun, interesting, story driven gameplay that the players want to experience and re-experience again.

[DivinExecutioner]

This is exactly what the game needs right now. Im extremelly impressed with your ability to express your ideas as well your organized thinking, wich makes me curious about what you do for a living, because this is a master piece of game review and redesign. And while talking about great review, you could've taken advantage of your knowledge and sell the idea to the DE, but instead you posted it here. I respect that.

[--MANA--]

Question. So I just skimmed on your suggestions and I think it's great and it has more diversity and huge potential for different builds and I totally want this but this is the problem. You know your suggestion so much and right now I can't imagine where all of my hardwork with mods would go.


My question is. What would happen to our mods that we already have now? where are they gonna go? Maybe if you can provide a solution for this then DE would actually consider this.

Maybe you've provided it and was not able to see it.

[EnDleSsPhantom]

A video basically stealing everything from the OP's post. Now, I made this video for people who don't want to spend time the giant wall of text and all of the painfully bad counter-arguments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEBGB0d2Fsc

For the first 5 minutes or so I was trying to find a good way to read it out loud, so a few bits sound forced.

Edited December 11, 2013 by EnDleSsPhantom

[-Yuzuki_Kiseki-]

this is 100% all true

[tlk742]

I'm 100% in favor of this.  Saw it on reddit, really like the idea.

 

I recommend everyone share this please.  Pass along the word.

Edited December 11, 2013 by tlk742

[Labyrinthe]

I think these are good ideas, but could do with a bit of simplification. Your attachment system is basically the same as the mod system, the key difference being that mods like serration and redirection are gone and instead the weapon/warframe is automatically improved in these essential ways as it levels. Instead of a complete overhaul, it might be simpler to just power up the weapons/warframes and leave no mods left except for the more situational mods like Intruder. I think that would still be true to the essentials of your idea, but is probably more feasible to implement because it works within the current system. And I agree that potatos and forma are just money gimicks and should be gotten rid of.

 

As for melee, I think the idea of stances is cool, but that some of this defeats the purpose of unique melee weapons. The Gallatine and the Skana may both be swords, but the Warframes weild them with very different fighting styles. In a way, the fighting style of a weapon is just as much a part of it as the damage and swing speed. Your talk of customizing and equipping stances is cool, but if you can change the stances then you're basically changing the weapon. A broadsword that I can rapidly swing around like a dagger might as well not be a broadsword anymore. Maybe all we need is melee weapons which are built around fighting styles rather than around impact vs puncture damage and the problem is solved.

Overall I'm agreeing with you, I'm also trying to suggest simpler ways to achieve your ends. Elegant design is getting the most depth and fun for the minimal amount of complexity, so it would be great if your already deep and fun system changes could also be simple. Just suggestions though, your ideas are basically solid.

[Volume]

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen, anywhere. theGreatZamboni clearly put his heart into it. Thanks, tGZ.

 

I'm not ready to give up on the mod card system. It's interesting and it takes a lot of effort to maximize. Just maxing Serration is a huge undertaking. I agree that no sane person would slot 'Intruder' or any of dozens of relatively useless mods. Where we differ in our thinking is whether this is such a bad thing. It's like life...are you going to 'invest' time playing online games, or are you going to get a job, an education, and a woman? Likewise, are you going to slot up 'Intruder', or do you think you might get more use out of 'Redirection'? Pretty obvious...but not everyone does the obvious.

 

Would the mod system be improved by adding some version of slot categorization? Frankly, I am pretty sure the mod system can and should be improved. I'm not at all sure that category-specific slots are the way to DO that improving. I think there is value in limiting the number of mods, because it compels the player to make interesting choices. 'Interesting choices' is the very definition of gaming. The limitation of 8 slots is...well, limiting. But without that limitation, where's the choice? I don't think the game would be hurt by the addition of a utility-specific slot or two, but I have no idea, really, what the ramifications would be.

 

We should probably try it and see.

 

Anyway, great post. I'm going to read the OP again and see what else compels me to hammer on my heavily-worn dvorak keyboard.

 

 

Maxxing serration isn't really a choice, let alone an interesting one.

 

Talking about investing time is hilarious. Would you rather play enough to max serration, or go get a girlfriend and job, as you apparently find relevant in your post?

Edited December 11, 2013 by Volume

[theGreatZamboni]

I think these are good ideas, but could do with a bit of simplification. Your attachment system is basically the same as the mod system, the key difference being that mods like serration and redirection are gone and instead the weapon/warframe is automatically improved in these essential ways as it levels. Instead of a complete overhaul, it might be simpler to just power up the weapons/warframes and leave no mods left except for the more situational mods like Intruder. I think that would still be true to the essentials of your idea, but is probably more feasible to implement because it works within the current system. And I agree that potatos and forma are just money gimicks and should be gotten rid of.

 

As for melee, I think the idea of stances is cool, but that some of this defeats the purpose of unique melee weapons. The Gallatine and the Skana may both be swords, but the Warframes weild them with very different fighting styles. In a way, the fighting style of a weapon is just as much a part of it as the damage and swing speed. Your talk of customizing and equipping stances is cool, but if you can change the stances then you're basically changing the weapon. A broadsword that I can rapidly swing around like a dagger might as well not be a broadsword anymore. Maybe all we need is melee weapons which are built around fighting styles rather than around impact vs puncture damage and the problem is solved.

Overall I'm agreeing with you, I'm also trying to suggest simpler ways to achieve your ends. Elegant design is getting the most depth and fun for the minimal amount of complexity, so it would be great if your already deep and fun system changes could also be simple. Just suggestions though, your ideas are basically solid.

 

The system gets rid of every mod. You do not need to grind for any mods. You play because you want to and are rewarded for playing. The attachments allow for asymmetrical design, giving purpose to otherwise undesirable weapons and allowing you to use what you want without feeling stupid for it. It prevents overkill builds and promotes trying new weapons. Weapons are an easy form of content to make and new weapons can be added all the time. If you make the guns more exciting and powerful, without the need to compensate with mods, the focus becomes on using the gun how you want because you like that gun. Melee as it exists has left longswords extremely underwhelming. If you could change the animations of a longsword, you take what inherent benefits stats-wise and apply it to a new animation set that affects how you attack(as well as modifications from the stance's specific precepts). You must have missed the part where each weapon has 3 sets of animations. Meaning daggers do not behave like broadswords when applied to a specific stance. The implication being: If you use a broadsword in Tempest, you do high single target damage. If you use it in Boundless, you hit multiple enemies but take a hit to pure damage. Duelist focuses on utility and status effects. Meaning you would never swing a broadsword like a dagger as you suggest. People keep suggesting simpler ways. Except all of those suggests leave behind other issues and are not comprehensive or do not take into account the whole picture.

 

Here is a previous post that expounds more:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1691672

 

I keep parroting it, but complimentary threads are coming to help explain certain aspects under a narrower field of information.

Edited December 11, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Monolake]

I can totally relate to the outlined problems in original post. As a new player I was bummed with pathetic damage my gun was doing because I never got Serration drop in 20-30 hrs of play !!! untill clanmate gave it to me.  In ~130hrs I got it only 3 times, and I'v played defences countless times, its my most played type of mission.  Horned strike is about equally rare. Why is that? Guns don't level up naturally and basic must have damage mods are so hard to obtain. It's nonsense for a game that is build around levelling progress. No wonder so many new players say the game is grind against the odds or even pay2play thinking they have to buy guns for plat to progress further. But then the bought guns without mods are not that great either... no wonder many new players quit. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by Monolake

[TheSpycrab]

At the most points you are right. DE should at least put something like this into the game for testing for like 1 week or so. I had ideas like this one already in my mind but this is much more.

[Zeranov]

Very interesting and detailed suggestions. Would love to see those rifty skilltrees in my arsenal for some real customization.

 

But doing this altogether would be too much load for the developers, I'm afraid. However they could split your ideas into three big updates (first Melee, then Guns and finally Warframes), cutting the associated mods bit by bit from the loottables and slowly introducing the new systems.

 

If they prepared the PS4 launch and damage 2.0 plus giving out new content at the same time in the past then they can do this too, but also have to keep people interested in the time between or else they have a most marvelous game which most people forgot about. Its a time where every (F2P-)game wants YOUR attention and sprays candy atleast every two weeks to keep yourself in line and that is a problem. Because with their current methods what should they update when the next big updates are probably making things like new mods, weapons and warframes partly or completely obsolete. Makes me thinking about thoses stats of the weapons they came up with shortly before update 11....

 

 

 

By the way... what's about the Void and the Vault? The most fearsome RNG-grind-treadmills (next to obtaining mods and then maxing them) in the game. Any ideas or threads about making this fun?

Edited December 11, 2013 by Zeranov

[Firetwice]

Your ideas are really good i hope DE reads this post.

[tmtke]

I think after rereading the OP a few times because of the edits, it gets more and more complicated, and a totally different warframe game, which I don't really want to play. Also I don't see how will it resolve the most apparent problem what is the whole concept is based on, the fearful grind. Personally I think the idea which can move warframe forward for real is the cell system, or the improved levels. Also for mods and stuff I have thought up some pretty easy solution, and a more hardcore one... All in all, there is a need of improvements, but I don't think that the current mod based system is the root of evil in warframe.

Edited December 11, 2013 by tmtke

[Elestor]

theGreatZamboni

 

I like that you are offering solutions and not just crying like most ppl on the forum and for that you have my congratiolations. 

The current mod system is indeed unbalanced or at least not fine tunned . But taking it away is not the best choice. 

You have to understand that each game has its unique factor that makes it interesting. It has a very very important role. + Having the same elements as in other games will make it boring very soon. Taking a skill tree while it also has advantages it has disadvantages as well, dont think its foolproof. Furthermore its  similar to LOL (league of legends) even the colors. Its and interesting solution but overly used in many games adding no flavor or originality to Warframe.

 

About ability and weapons , have to give you the categories are good but the only problem weapons have is that since the huge diversity in mods " maximization " is possible. Making some weapons over the top . What your suggesting is limmiting the weapons and that takes away form the freedom . 

 

Also Melee is viable , even if it dose not have combos. This is not DMC

I find it very easy and in some missions prefer it above everything else. If its your point of view dont make it out to be everyones. Also stances are not new , and only complicate the game more. Warframes are in the prime light here , with their abilitys not the fight styles like in DMC. If you have ideas like stances it should bring out the unique element of the warframe not be universal to be used by all warframes. 

 

ALSO . Warframe tries to be original in its own way, while fans like you want to take 10 different games that have cool features and dump them into warframe . Sooner or later a new game will come out and you again will want to dump it in warframe in the idea of having a "complete" game/ experience. It cannot go like this and would lead to its death of worse, things like other companys to sue . Rather then a chimera it should remain original.

 

Further more some notes are just for your own point of view, with the consideration that others might feel the same way, wake up dude, we are individuals , not every dose, and that lack of an open mind, if you wish, leads to problems. 

Sure there are good ideas in what you wrote , but there are bad ones as well.  So far the only idea i liked was the combos for melee since it may have potential, and nothing more related to melee. 

 

If they change it like you made above i doubt it i will play anymore. Fix problems sure but change it like that nope. 

Since when do Fans know what the DE dont know about the games intended purposes ? 

 

Dont take a privelege like DE reading your ideas in a cunstroctive fashion and mix it up with telling them how they should make their game and do their job. Its disrespectful beyond suggestions.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Elestor

[KazeNoKoe]

Very true. But, DE needs to get better at picking out good feedback. There could be one side begging for this system, and the other side could be asking for more mods, weapons, and Warframes. They don't need to stop listening to one side, but rather take both with a grain of salt. The problem is, in my opinion, it seems as though DE is hesitant to change. By this, I don't mean "hey DE peoplez, let's add moar mods, moar warframes, moar weaponz!!!!" I mean like the Armor system. They were hesitant to change that. They're afraid of major changes, with good reason. But without risk, there will be no reward. 

 

Well I'm a software developer and while I work on things that are infinitely simpler than this game I know how a software product gains more and more inertia as it approaches completion and becomes harder and harder to steer away from its intended destination. It's not just the science, a lot of it is about money - budget, profitability. I think at this point in Warframe's development the most we can hope for is incremental changes, which DE seems very willing to do. Except they don't seem to be doing many gameplay changes (dmg2.0 only changed the math behind it - it was an arsenal patch, not a gameplay patch), a situation that makes Zamboni's critique quite relevant.

 

In the latest dev workshop (entry 5) there's a note about better melee. Let's hope it's less about changing multipliers and more about swinging steel.

[Rajko]

 

snip snip snippity

 

About ability and weapons , have to give you the categories are good but the only problem weapons have is that since the huge diversity in mods " maximization " is possible. Making some weapons over the top . What your suggesting is limmiting the weapons and that takes away form the freedom . 

 

Also Melee is viable , even if it dose not have combos. This is not DMC

I find it very easy and in some missions prefer it above everything else. If its your point of view dont make it out to be everyones. Also stances are not new , and only complicate the game more. Warframes are in the prime light here , with their abilitys not the fight styles like in DMC. If you have ideas like stances it should bring out the unique element of the warframe not be universal to be used by all warframes. 

 

Snip snip pins pins

 

 

 

Sorry to extract and place out of context of your commentary, but this caught my attention:

 

It would be interesting if different stances WERE informed by the frame itself.  I can think of several ways to make that pretty entertaining, either by taking Zamboni's proposal and just adding tiny visual or gameplay elements informed by the frame (smoke trail and enhanced silence/stealth of weapons used by Ash, electrical arc's or slight speed boost w/ Volt, chance for confusion from Nyx's strikes) to an individual melee stance per frame, or frame specific modifications to stances.

 

Even if the stances were informed by the animation sets selected, an amazing amount of potential exists for flavor and choice.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Rajko

[tmtke]

Also in general, what if warframe basic elemental affinity would increase status chance IF the actually used weapon have the same element combo equipped? Volt would charge up electric damage, Saryn to toxic, etc. Of course, not all frames are element based, or elements which can't be combined currently, but it can be manageable.