A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[DannieRay23]

This is great overall and would make for a way better game.

 

 

But it's too revolutionary, too big of a change to the point that it becomes almost insulting for the development team.

 

Check out my analysis on the subject (someone tell me how to fix my letter coloring): https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/162243-of-balance-and-design-philosophy-weapon-mods/

 

I believe we should try and adress these problems in a way that doesn't really completely overhaul the system, try and correct the course of the current systems instead of starting anew. I know it can be frustrating to work with something that you deem severely flawed but the current mod system does have its merits and if tweeked accordingly can be the basis for something that in the end works similar to what was described.

 

 

IMO that course of action would yield a greater chance of being implemented, as we'd be working with DE and not against them.

[theGreatZamboni]

Well, I don't see many issues with your proposed system, just a few questions:

Why Remember Me's strike system? Why not some system where you can throw in a upgrade to the blade that gives it one special effect? (Health/energy drain, armor corrosion, elemental proc and so on) And why would you implement timed combos into a fast-paced kill-before-you-think game like Warframe, where almost every enemy can stagger and interrupt your combos?

 

Will you update the skill path (Not tree based on your images) for warframes with image examples of what you can get and what you have to choose between? 

 

Why remove potatoes and Formas? Can't they play a role in the proposed system? (For example, Forma allowing you to split damage in a weapon, transferring impact damage to puncture or slash and potatoes allowing you to increase one stat on a weapon)

 

I will try to answer you, but at this point the likely hood of me finishing this little project have tanked. I do have a sound reasoning for utilizing the idea of created combos. If this thread was not clear enough, the melee focused one should elaborate. All your criticisms are things I considered, but the precepts/stances innate bonuses address these. The system was concieved to incentive choice with tradeoffs. I understand your concerns, but again at this point the melee spotlight is not finished.

 

As for the skill paths, I have examples made up, which again will come with the skill tree spotlight thread. Here is a bit more information, an example I hope will help:

 

 

Powers are given innately, as stated in the OP. Powers gain new utility and power as you spend points on them. But this means you cannot max every branch. Meaning you pick what powers you want depending on your style of play. If you really like Decoy, increases to it may upgrade max health, make it explode dealing damage when destroyed, reflect damage back to attackers and so on. But if you get high enough in the Decoy branch you cannot max Switch teleport, so the following style of play becomes unavailable. Switch with multiple targets using Switch Teleport. Hold and drag over a series of enemies, then switch to the location of the first while they are left where you were standing. This is not only useful for you, but actually promotes teamplay. You talk with your friends and say "Hey Ember, max out your Fireblast. I will Switch Teleport enemies into it." The idea being you can create real means of cooperation outside of increased drop farming.

 

I will be honest and say that I have no answer for forma or potatoes. If someone could come up with something that fit within the confines of my ideas, something that was unintrusive and not necessary but complimentary, that would be fine. But as it stands, forma is a bandaid to fix poor Warframe kit design and the shortcomings of the Mod Card System. It becomes necessary not for expressive builds, but for simply getting around shortcoming is the damage systems. Potatoes are the same. Really think, what would either of these two entities have to offer a system that holds nothing from the player, while still creating incentives for trade offs. Outside of a dishonest source of income, the forma and potatoes have done nothing but hampered the experience for players. Read here:

 

 

Forma and Potatoes are a relic of the old design and serve no place in the new system. They were merely a way for them to get money out of people unwilling to wait for Alerts. Forma has also become a hurdle for people looking to start a clan. They should have never made Forma a building material. Forma has also made any advantages of Prime Warframes virtually nonexistent.

[DannieRay23]

theGreatZamboni, on 25 Nov 2013 - 7:45 PM, said:

Forma and Potatoes are a relic of the old design and serve no place in the new system. They were merely a way for them to get money out of people unwilling to wait for Alerts. Forma has also become a hurdle for people looking to start a clan. They should have never made Forma a building material. Forma has also made any advantages of Prime Warframes virtually nonexistent.

 

Prime Warframes also look different, that is something to consider.

 

To be honest I don't really mind Catalysts and Reactors as Platinum isn't really that hard to come by. With a 50% off daily reward you can get 1000 plat for what? 25USD? with that you are practically set for life in regards to potatoes, and are you telling me that the game isn't even worth 25 USD? also, you can farm mods or keys or whatever and sell them for plat.

 

I think the biggest problem with reactors and catalysts are that they are mandatory for success but a newer player wouldn't really know that.

 

I agree that the potato/forma system is not perfect but it is something we can live with while fixing some other more important issues.

[theGreatZamboni]

 

theGreatZamboni, on 25 Nov 2013 - 7:45 PM, said:

 

Prime Warframes also look different, that is something to consider.

 

To be honest I don't really mind Catalysts and Reactors as Platinum isn't really that hard to come by. With a 50% off daily reward you can get 1000 plat for what? 25USD? with that you are practically set for life in regards to potatoes, and are you telling me that the game isn't even worth 25 USD? also, you can farm mods or keys or whatever and sell them for plat.

 

I think the biggest problem with reactors and catalysts are that they are mandatory for success but a newer player wouldn't really know that.

 

I agree that the potato/forma system is not perfect but it is something we can live with while fixing some other more important issues.

 

 

This is another post from this thread about the issue:

 

Forma makes starting and maintaining a clan a hassle. Which in turn doesn't allow people to experience everything. If it is easier to join an already finished clan, then few new clans will be made let alone sustained. This directly affects competition. Forma also made Prime versions of anything useless outside of esthetics. DE are gambling on the idea people want gold trimmed items that are slightly different, items that have been rendered useless due to the addition of Forma. The fact you can now skip what is seen as "end-game" content is ludicrous. The Void itself is nothing all that different from the items it drops. Pleasing to look at, with not affects on the gameplay. The “Secret Interaction” of replenishing energy when walking up to box traps is hardly an incentive for people, nor does it warrant the effort involved in obtaining said Warframe (effort you can forgo with a large fee). The “Secret Interaction” becomes useless once outside the Void. So once the player obtains all the rewards from the Void and have no reason to return, said interaction is essentially non-existent. So Forma makes the slight stats gained from a Prime unnoticeable when posed against current content. Cosmetics are fine. But when lore states these weapons were the precursors to what we use now, while what we use now pales in comparison; these stats/polarities do not reflect the "rarity" of these items. "The rarest content" rendered useless with Forma. This is really a reflection of everything wrong with the game. Forma ties into the shoddy content we have as well as the systems of play that promote samey builds and the repetition of un-fun actions. It cripples the way people play. If it was supplemental that would be fine, but because of what it does and the nature of the systems in play; it feels like a cheap way to entice people to spend money instead of earnestly providing means in which they would want to.

 

Forma and potatos are the issue, because they are a part of the Mod Card System. Also the player should never have to farm anything, nor "grind" anything. If the experience requires dedication and a time commitment, make it fun so the player doesn't even consider the notion of labeling the gameplay as "grinding". There wouldn't even need to be trading if it weren't for mods. You could do without it. As of right now it adds little to the experience and perpetuates the stigma of having to subject yourself to unfun actions to get what you want or to pay to not play. The problem isn't new players don't know how important reactors or catalysts are, it is the fact they are so important. Again, the game could do without them and be all the better for it. Especially if accompanied by my changes. Right now Warframe is not worth 25$. In hindsight, given the level of pandering and incompetence, would never have become a founder. But I saw potential. I thought small things like Sentinel HUDs, better drop tables, bug fixes would be fixed in a timely manner. But lo and behold they still are not in the game. You can make the excuse "they are coming soon though" all you want. The problem lies in the fact they were neglected for so long. Most likely due to the infinitely moronic decision to launch an alpha with a cash shop on a new platform before making sure they had an actual game to showcase. The lack of basic quality of life improvements were not as rapid or drastic as they needed to be. I don't care what excuse they have for it, it is embarrassing. What is more embarrassing is the lack of communication and refusal to come to terms with their shortcomings as it pertains to Warframe and previous titles. The reason 2014 will the essentially "Warframe 2" is because they do not have to deal with porting the game.

 

What I fail to understand is, why release something on the PS4 only to make a crappy impression and turn people away, instead of making sure the experience was worthy of a "release". If they had waited a year or two to do so, they could have seen how the F2P market on consoles pans out. With games like Blacklight: Retribution, DC Universe Online, Planetside 2 that are already successful in their own right, games that are infinitely more polished by comparison, waiting to see how those titles succeeded or failed would be an intelligent decision. If DE needed the new source of income, that is a dishonest and morally bankrupt reason to put the game on the PS4, especially at launch. Anyone who has any insight about the industry could clearly outline why the PS4 release of Warframe was a mistake. Why the product released was not befitting of the expected quality associated with console gaming (insert bias fanyboy reactions here, yes I understand PC gaming is subjectively better but when a game is released on consoles you don't normally deal with video card issues or crashes). People expect stability and polish, two things absent from Warframe. I cannot imagine the reaction of someone playing on their PS4 when they get the host migration blackscreen bug, a bug that has existed since June.

 

As I have done for several others, I recommend you re-read the thread. Most complaints you are airing are addressed better than I have done here.

 

Still upset with the level of developer feedback, in this thread and others. I see the most arbitrary threads responded to, but something of this caliber and care goes ignored aside from a "keep it on topic" from Megan. Not even a gesture of "Interesting ideas" was thrown my way. This is sour grapes, I will make no bones about it.

 

As for your thread, if you want me to go on a massive tangent about the whole concept I can. It will be constructive feedback, but it will essentially take the &!$$ out of your idea.

Edited January 12, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[DannieRay23]

constructive feedback is always appreciated, too many people respond just because without actually having any arguments.

 

As for what you said..

 

"Also the player should never have to farm anything, nor "grind" anything"

 

That's highly debatable, there are games that are just about that and I think it's been said that the vision for warframe is to be a loot based game.

 

"If the experience requires dedication and a time commitment, make it fun so the player doesn't even consider the notion of labeling the gameplay as "grinding""

 

 

Yes, yes and yes. But you don't need a complete system overhaul to make this happen.

 

 

"There wouldn't even need to be trading if it weren't for mods. You could do without it. As of right now it adds little to the experience and perpetuates the stigma of having to subject yourself to unfun actions to get what you want or to pay to not play."

 

Trading can be fun when done right, When I started I worked hard to grind defenses to get an elemental damage mod for my shotgun and felt highly rewarded when I finally achieved it. I agree that the system is not ideal, but you just can't dismiss with "adds little to the experience".

 

It needs to be ironed out, that's for sure. But the mod card system is part of what makes Warframe unique, and while I agree that it is not correctly balanced and implemented out right removing it would be a disservice to Warframe's identity.

 

"The problem isn't new players don't know how important reactors or catalysts are, it is the fact they are so important. Again, the game could do without them and be all the better for it."

 

That's basically an "I don't want to pay". Yes, reactors and catalysts are a bit wonky but they are not hard nor particularly expensive to get. You might even get lucky and get them as alert/daily drops. You have enough starting platinum to buy one of each, basically it allows you to have 1 real good warframe and weapon for free and then you need to buy the rest to get "choice."

 

It might not be perfect but its not exactly world-ending or too off-puting. We could probably be better off without it, but is it worth the cost of the income that those items provide?

 

I believe this to be a much smaller issue and is way down on the list of things that I'd change.

 

But I insist that it's a problem that new players can't know the value of these items, there should be a bit more of a tutorial on all things potatos, formas, mod fusion, etc.

 

"Right now Warframe is not worth 25$. In hindsight, given the level of pandering and incompetence, would never have become a founder."

 

I respecfully disagree, and also there's no need to insult the developing team. Even if their work isn't perfect, they are at least trying. You can say the might be a bit stubborn but it's hard not to be with your creation. With that level of hostility you are not likely to be heard and thus you won't be able to have a positive impact on the experience.

 

 

"But I saw potential. I thought small things like Sentinel HUDs, better drop tables, bug fixes would be fixed in a timely manner."

 

Agreed 100%, there's HUGE potential in warframe. And there's really a lot of real small stuff that could likely be easily fixed way faster than things are going right now.

 

 

Also, the whole PS4 deal I'll stay out of.

 

"Still upset with the level of developer feedback, in this thread and others. I see the most arbitrary threads responded to, but something of this caliber and care goes ignored aside from a "keep it on topic" from Megan. Not even a gesture of "Interesting ideas" was thrown my way. This is sour grapes, I will make no bones about it."

 

I understand you are upset, it's easy to be upset when you see that your ideas are being ignored. Especially when they are admittedly great ideas.

 

But put yourself on the Dev's shoes, you are basically telling them "rework your game system from scratch, also use this because I'm way smarter than you", that's not exactly something nice to read.

 

You are completely ignoring the vision the devs have of the game, and you don't seem to be (i might be mistaken) trying to understand why things were done the way they were. You just want a better gaming experience (hard to blame you), and are providing an almost complete system that would be (likely) a better option.

 

So yeah, I'm not surprised that you haven't gotten dev feedback. What do you want them to tell you?

 

"Sorry, you have great ideas but that's not the direction we want to take"

 

"Start a kickstarter and make your own game"

 

It's a hard situation to be admittedly, but not only you are undermining the devs when presenting a hostile solution, but also have a hostile attitude about it.

[7grims]

sorry I didnt read it all...

 

But agree with the fact this game rewards luck instead of skill.

Just like ember prime, the player who actually got ember prime, isn't a very good player with very good skills, I don't look at him and think he must be a pro, I just think, lucky bastard.

 

IDK about the old leveling tree system, it feels like most games that have this kind of "level up your character gameplay" , mods makes WF quite different, but then again yes, its based on luck to get the proper mods.

Also renders allot of mods useless, and never used by anyone, and in the future theres gonna be so many mods, we wont have ways to obtain any.

 

It all ends out on DE being stubborn about RNG, it's ok to have it for map tiles distribution, enemies spawning and effects, but for rewards and drops makes the game VERY bad.

Edited January 12, 2014 by 7grims

[Achronus]

May I make some suggestions of my own to this concept?

 

I like most (but NOT all) of the concepts here in. So I have some suggestions to incorperate the best of the best into a slightly tweaked system.

 

First off: Mods

I understand that you (the OP) wish them gone. And that Grinding would be a thing of the past.

I am against this. As the game is (very) close to the MMO type of game and has lvls on things grinding is very much a part of this game and should remain so. But, I do feel that perhaps grinding has become too much the focus; even in games such as Diablo grinding was important, NOT absolutely needed.

 

I like the system of precepts where in higher mastery players gain free boosts. I think that the mastery rank tests themselves could use 'some' buff to difficulty (I think that some are plenty difficult now). I LOVE the idea of weapon attachments! but it is their use that I think should be addressed.

 

To this end (addressing mod useage) and how such a system could be friendly with attachments and leveling of a Warframe.

-One: make attachments accept mods. higher level attachments have better base stats; and highest level attachments can accept 2 cards (attachments in and of themselves do not have a point limit and thus can mount whatever cards you have)

-Two: Cards would be HARD limited as to which attachments they can go into. serration for example cannot go into the grip attachment. (and thus less used cards have a home in their use elsewhere)

-Three: the attachments themselves cost points, thus supercharged polarized guns can accept the biggest and best attachments.

-Four: Warframes are using the attachment system: Shell, Underlayer, Core, Helmet, Aura. Things like sprint, and hand-spring would be restricted to the underlayer; but redirection and fast deflection woud be shell. Naturally the Helmet would be where the Ability cards are slotted. UNLIKE the system of attachments for guns the warframe is a single unit, thus they are subject to a mod limit (like now). But by splitting the types of mods up and tweaking them to be ADDITIONS to Warframes (rather than the current that has Redirection as an ALWAYS on) so that you honestly have to ask the question: More powerful shields and health; or faster shield recharge and Equallibrium? Natually Warframes can have differnt number of mod slots in each catagory. Ember for example can have a 3 slot core (with streamline, focus energy, and stretch for example, or maybe switch focus enrergy with overextend?) but conversely have the shell section support only a single card.

-Five: normalize mod interation with attachments. If I have a Core that supports 2 cards Serration and Point Strike should be a valid choice (sniper happy anyone?) but say Split chamber and heavy caliber results in an inaccurate (but powerful) bullet hose. OR I can load Serration and Heavy caliber and have accuracy problems but lots a power; and naturally this is a difficult proccess.

 

-Six... and this one is a doozy.

Attachments come in different flavors; including a VERY powerful but NO mod cards accepted form. This would serve as a stop gap for the unlucky of us; this attachment would be a craftable one that has inate bonuses that while good; are NOT has good compaired to dual card loaded models. similarly a 3 card model might exist... that grants NO bonuses on it's own. Interactions of these (attachments and mods) would be the heart of balancing and tweaking for the Devs. But, it grants an out for the unlucky to minimize grinding, one that the players will find still rewards their hard work with the best gear loaded with the best mods (which many of use already have)

 

Melee... your (OP) ideas are... intresting; it is my understanding that DE is already doing something similar? (I haven't seen the livesteam) yours looks good. I LOVE the simplelicity of it.

 

My friend commented that perhaps the Mastery rank precepts should be disabled in conclave. or maybe conclaves might have mastery ranking?

Regardless I think that such points should be floating, and can be reassigned on a whim.

[CosyPigeon]

Bumping this, because I waaaaaaaaant it. I want warframe to be like this so I can actually enjoy playing it again, rather than returning once a month to grind out a new event item in the vain hope that maybe one day the game will live up to the potential I saw in closed beta. 

[PROteinxstack]

Bump.  This is something I have been thinking about for a long time but couldn't put it into words yet.  Thanks so much OP for writing all of this out.  I did read all of the post and agree with it 100%.  Hopefully DE can muster the strength to create said content.  It is quite a deep request, but the truth in it is undeniable.  At this point I know DE is working on the Melee 2.0 system (hopefully integrating your ideas), as for the rest of the OP I can only hope they are listening and making such changes.  Thanks again!

[Basilisk1991]

Most of your ideas are great (WONDERFUL even), I love the idea of weapon stances, especially since they've gone on the record stating that they plan on making melee weapons a holdout weapon like your rifles or secondaries, the idea of stances would be great to complement this as well as an actual combo system ala devil may cry (I'm salivating just thinking about it!) would be AMAZING!

[lMasterBetal]

snip

 

Someone hire this man.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Tulzscha
edited the epic quote

[lucio1019]

This will NOT happen.

Discuss this post is way beyond pointless.

The system we have now works, so DO NOT CHANGE IT.

 

Changes in this big scale will lead to 2 possible result: very good OR very bad. There will be no middle ground.

You supports are asking DE to make a gambling worht millions. And the one want to make the gamble IS NOT the one who will take the risk.

 

Be realistic. If you don't like the system, just leave. No one is begging you to stay. But you cannot impules one company to put millions of dollars into a gambling and claim no responisibility for the result.

[GSrevolution]

Someone hire this man.

Please, if a post is too long, don't quote the whole thing... just erase all the text in the quote box or something.

[Starender]

our actual mod specialisation is great, but i admit that a little skill tree in addition could be good to make each character unique 

[Taihus]

This will NOT happen.

Discuss this post is way beyond pointless.

The system we have now works, so DO NOT CHANGE IT.

 

Changes in this big scale will lead to 2 possible result: very good OR very bad. There will be no middle ground.

You supports are asking DE to make a gambling worht millions. And the one want to make the gamble IS NOT the one who will take the risk.

 

Be realistic. If you don't like the system, just leave. No one is begging you to stay. But you cannot impules one company to put millions of dollars into a gambling and claim no responisibility for the result.

I think discussing this is in fact worth something. Asking DE to do an overhaul of Warframe's systems is unreasonable, yes, but discussing what doesn't quite work with those systems and why changing them in such a way would be an improvement may in fact reveal more subtle yet just as effective solutions to the game's problems.

[Duralumin]

our actual mod specialisation is great, but i admit that a little skill tree in addition could be good to make each character unique 

Nah. Mod system is awful because it leaves player progression ENTIRELY in the hands of RNG.

[lMasterBetal]

Nah. Mod system is awful because it leaves player progression ENTIRELY in the hands of RNG.

I'd prefer a mix of the two.

[Noble_Cactus]

Bumping this because it's an excellent collection of ideas that don't deserve to die.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[MegaSnail]

This seems like every other MMO game ever.

[theGreatZamboni]

This seems like every other MMO game ever.

 

If you need me to break down why you are wrong let me know. If you need me to explain why MMOs have become stagnant, I can inform you of that as well. As I said before, just because a game has a flashlight, doesn't make it Alan Wake. Just because a game has cover shooting does not make it Gears of War. Just because this idea takes the concept of a skill tree and re-purposes it around this game, does not make it an MMO. Your comment leads me to believe you did even read the thread, you probably just looked at the pictures.

Edited February 14, 2014 by theGreatZamboni

[Drifter11]

Your comment leads me to believe you did even read the thread, you probably just look at the pictures.

 

I wouldn't worry about comments like that. Just respond to comments that are useful. Your idea is sound.

[TwiceDead]

Is it possible to get a tl;dr version? 
 

Judging the pictures I think I can get a general idea of what it's trying to say, and I like what I see, but I don't have the patience to read books, and this is getting close to a novel... 

Edited February 14, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Luminati07]

Is it possible to get a tl;dr version? 

 

Judging the pictures I think I can get a general idea of what it's trying to say, and I like what I see, but I don't have the patience to read books, and this is getting close to a novel... 

A tl;dr can't do this thread justice.

 

You'll need to read through the whole thing.

If you can't give the OP the respect and patience to read his thread in full, then why should he give you the respect and patience to give you a tl;dr?

 

Don't take that the wrong way, it wasn't meant to come across as harsh.

[TwiceDead]

A tl;dr can't do this thread justice.

 

You'll need to read through the whole thing.

If you can't give the OP the respect and patience to read his thread in full, then why should he give you the respect and patience to give you a tl;dr?

 

Don't take that the wrong way, it wasn't meant to come across as harsh.

Meh, I figured a tl;dr wouldn't do the thread justice, but it doesn't hurt to ask. I liked the illustrations so I think that gives enough reason to drop a like... Which it turns out I already have done before.

Hmm! 

[Calayne]

A tl;dr can't do this thread justice.

 

You'll need to read through the whole thing.

If you can't give the OP the respect and patience to read his thread in full, then why should he give you the respect and patience to give you a tl;dr?

 

Don't take that the wrong way, it wasn't meant to come across as harsh.

 

Amen to that.

 

But, Twicedead, you should really take a read at it. Doesn't have to be in one sitting. The pictures are nice, but they're a complement to the words, not the other way around. Read it in it's entirety. It's good.