How Would You Build A Boss Fight?

[Hazmatzone]

So yea I've been seeing threads everywhere talking about Alad V, most of them are criticisms claiming that Alad V is weak and that he needs a buff. I'm not going to agree or disagree with any of these criticisms but it did make me curious as to how some of you would do a boss fight in warframe.

 

Keep in mind that the below things have been a complaint of players in past bosses and current bosses.

1) If it has too much hp or shields players will call it a bullet sponge and it will be complained about

2) if it has a damage cap or invicibility frames players will ask "what's the point in making my weapon as strong as possible" and will complain

3) if it is killed within 30 seconds players will call it a joke and it will be complained about

4) Every level of player should be able to do the boss, or the group of players unable to will complain that they can't enjoy the new content.

 

Also keep in mind that you must complete all work on the boss in a months time so it cannot be too flashy or over the top.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Hazmatzone

[taiiat]

how would i build a boss?

 

i wouldn't. 

 

bosses are inherently boring. because they pigeonhole the player and require them to complete a sequence in a specific way.

 

bosses are basically a big flashy version of a Quick Time Event.

actually, a lot of bosses have QTE's in them -.-

 

 

i literally do not think a boss fight is capable to be fun. because of it's inherent flaws.

 

 

that being said, bosses like Golem 2.0 are interesting. i can appreciate the work that goes into it, and it can be a immersive experience.

but was it fun? no, not really. 

 

 

i'd also prefer a boss fight to be easy, than to be brutally frustrating. i want to be able to enjoy the effort put into creating the experience, not the other end of the stick. 

[McFaint]

how would i build a boss?

 

i wouldn't. 

 

bosses are inherently boring. because they pigeonhole the player and require them to complete a sequence in a specific way.

 

bosses are basically a big flashy version of a Quick Time Event.

actually, a lot of bosses have QTE's in them -.-

 

 

i literally do not think a boss fight is capable to be fun. because of it's inherent flaws.

 

 

that being said, bosses like Golem 2.0 are interesting. i can appreciate the work that goes into it, and it can be a immersive experience.

but was it fun? no, not really. 

 

 

i'd also prefer a boss fight to be easy, than to be brutally frustrating. i want to be able to enjoy the effort put into creating the experience, not the other end of the stick. 

 

Casual.

[Valkyrie9001]

how would i build a boss?

 

i wouldn't. 

 

bosses are inherently boring. because they pigeonhole the player and require them to complete a sequence in a specific way.

 

bosses are basically a big flashy version of a Quick Time Event.

actually, a lot of bosses have QTE's in them -.-

 

 

i literally do not think a boss fight is capable to be fun. because of it's inherent flaws.

 

 

that being said, bosses like Golem 2.0 are interesting. i can appreciate the work that goes into it, and it can be a immersive experience.

but was it fun? no, not really. 

 

 

i'd also prefer a boss fight to be easy, than to be brutally frustrating. i want to be able to enjoy the effort put into creating the experience, not the other end of the stick. 

 

You're a hardcore Super Mario Brothers 1 Fan, huh?

[Bang_Doll]

Casual.

ermahgerd casul y dont u get gud

[shut]

For Warframe, I'd definitely make the bosses more skill-oriented for a start. Have it so that players have to actively avoid attacks rather than just stand away or sit in a bubble. Lephantis' Melee head was a good start in this direction, but it was laughably easy to avoid by the slowest of characters, so excitement was lost after about thirty seconds of engaging in combat with that head.

 

Games like Vindictus have the right idea in regards to skill-based combat.

Edited November 26, 2013 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

Casual.

says the person that apparently thinks Quick Time Events have any difficulty to them.

 

well, that's settled then.

Edited November 26, 2013 by taiiat

[Huntchez]

How would I build a boss?

 

All slows, stuns, and other CC is reduced by 25% on bosses.

 

If a player has a sniper, explosive, or some other power weapon, bosses will actually try to evade/move around rather than standing around or moving all slow.

 

Boss will prioritize the player dealing the most damage.

 

Enemies around the buff receive a leadership buff, increasing damage slightly.

 

 

annnnd as a bonus..

 

The Stalker won't just spawn outside of assassination missions to hunt you down, he has a chance of spawning after you kill the boss and stop you from getting to extraction.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Huntchez

[Firetempest]

I would make a event that lasts through the whole map rather than a specific entity.

Such as an expanding shield you need to keep ahead of.

Like the deadly baryon sweep.

Consoles and such can be used to bring up limiters to slow the field. Corpus could start using traps similar to orokin laser panels. But are made to stun and slow like the ice floor pads.

Much harder map layouts. Basically the map is the boss, and the rebirth of the Raid. It was always a race anyway. So turn the whole map into the obstacle course except you die and fail the mission if the shield catches up.

Would be a good time to add path variance depending on frame as well. Primes could activate traps in the void. Let there be a difference between fast and slow frames. Or rather agility vs brute force. Like map wall sections that would bust open when a rhino/frost/Saryn sprints through it. Or can "hack doors" with a quicktime to break the door down rather than find a console.

[Madotsuki]

Building a boss in Warframe? That takes many steps, and it doesn't just include making the boss itself have strong attacks. Many factors go into making a good boss.

First comes, bet you never guessed it, LORE. Introducing this boss to the players, NOT just through some limited time event that new players will never experience for themselves, but throughout the planet that he/she/it resides in. Dialogue, events, even surprise early encounters. Imagine if you're doing a mission in Neptune, working your way to Psamathe, and suddenly the Lotus warns you that some sort of high energy reading is approaching you. Suddenly the doors open and in comes a Hyena. After a tough fight, the Lotus tells you she's looking into the mysterious new proxy, and it turns out it is one of the new Anti-Personnel super proxies that the Corpus are researching, and you have to get to Psamathe to take out their production facility. Good lore-making builds up anticipation and atmosphere, it makes players EXCITED for the fight.

Of course, now that you've built up the boss, it's time for the fight itself. Even then there are two things you need to consider, the boss itself, and the arena it resides in. The arena needs to build upon the fight and not just look good. For example, a sniper boss like Nef Anyo should have an arena that's full of platforms and terrain of varying elevation (such as boxes), which can provide Anyo with a height advantage and an element of ambush when combined with his cloaking, and give players cover to avoid his shots. In the case of Alad and Zanuka, the arena should have more pillars, walls, places for Zanuka to perform that epic parkour it was doing in the trailer, which can also be used by smart players to their own advantage.

As for the boss itself, it needs to be based off its own unique theme and/or gimmick, which is based on established lore. For example, Vay Hek is supposed to be crafty and cunning, unpredictable. Hyenas rely on teamwork as they hunt as a group. Zanuka is an agile powerhouse of pain, while Alad is the cowardly puppetmaster of Zanuka. Nef Anyo is frail, but utilises top notch defensive technology with his money (i.e. Environmental structures can play a huge part in the fight). Their movesets are then based off of these factors.

Once the theme of their movesets has been decided, the movesets themselves also need to follow a few rules. 1. All offensive powers must be dodgable with player skill. Player gear level plays a secondary role. 2. The more powerful an attack is, or the harder it is to avoid, the more significant and lengthy should the "tell" be, so that players get a shot at avoiding it even on the first run if they're cautious enough.

Once you've come up with a complete moveset for the boss, simply split it into two or three phases. For the boss' survivability, designating a weakpoint is usually the best way to go. Otherwise, designating a "vulnerability" period, such as after certain attacks, also works, or even can be used in conjunction with weakpoints, such as with Ruk.

Basically, the art of making a good boss fight is VERY complicated, and it just feels like DE is too lazy or simply too uninterested in it to make truly interesting bosses.

[ToeSama]

Step 1) Have bosses react to Warframe skills differently than their scrubs do. Why does Rhino Stomp do damage, lift bosses and apply slow down instead of doing damage and causing a moment of stagger? If they're suppose to be more than super scrubs, make it so. Don't just make everything blanket to react the same way, and most definitely give the enemies a means to completely negate skills like the Stalker and Zanuka. Invalidating choice is worse than not having any choice at all...

 

Step 2) Design bosses for players of like levels. Scaling seems to be the big buzz word around currently, but we can always create areas with boss rush challenges for the game. Until Warframe becomes more than a game about grinding and farming, forcing every trip to a boss to be a challenge is more effort than it's worth to run them. Adding a mode of play for specific type of challenges would be a better solution until then, and even after. As the direct input from basic runs of a boss offer insight in to how to make it more of a challenge for such modes, building it for an expected level serves better all around imo.

 

Step 3) No invulnerability that cannot be stopped through player interaction (Vor, and Raptor). No weakpoints attached to the body that hide away or cause the boss to go into a panic mode of invulnerability (Ruk, Lephantis and Kril). No damage caps not a result of a skill use that last for more than for a few seconds (Lephantis). Most of the modern bosses of Warframe, as shown, use these tactics to elongate the fight needlessly. If the player is actually capable of taking an enemy down in a few seconds outside of a challenge map, good for them. that said, a player shouldn't be capable of doing that for EVERY boss, so different strategies should be needed. To keep each boss fresh comparatively. Which leads to my forth step...

 

Step 4) Not all bosses should be defeated by damaging them directly alone. Every boss from the first Soul Reaver. The Icon of Sin from Doom 2. Chthon from the first Quake. These are examples of how to make bosses revolved around gimmicks or puzzles that the player should have to overcome instead of simply attack boss and profit. And each of those bosses allowed the player to actively participate in these things, rather than some ideas that try these things by timed access to the secret or making you attack the boss directly to gain access to the trick.

 

Step 5) The bosses need a much higher quality of AI than the scrubs do. While Warframe's AI is lacking overall, the bosses of the game should be above the rank and file soldiers that we kill by droves of the hundreds every time we go to a Survival stage. As they are designed now, some of the bosses make better ideas for super grunts, or mini bosses, rather than full fledged bosses. This includes many of the more modern bosses such as Vor, Kril and the Raptor

 

Now, to build an example of this, I'll take Sargas Ruk as my guinea pig and construct a boss concept using him.

 

Instead of giving Ruk weakpoints, I would have a device in the room that continually regenerates his health at a high rate. To stop the health gain, you would have to access three different engines for the device in a fashion similar to using the O2 tanks in a Survival mission. Once these three devices are down, Ruk will not regen health, but his attacks will be stronger, and he will use some powers he does not use while regen is active. These powers he will also use even while the regen is up if his health is below a certain point. Without the regen, Ruk will try to find cover, using his attacks to keep enemies at bay while Grineer troops try to restart one or two of the engines after all three have been turned off. The health regen will start back up if these troops succeed in turning back on any of the three engines, forcing the player to shut off any engines they restarted if they cannot kill Ruk before hand.

 

This allows the players to have an active impact on Ruk's health regen if they cannot take him down quickly without stopping it, but doesn't force them to if they are able to deal enough damage to him that he cannot regen fast enough. I would also have Ruk react differently to Warframe powers than his men do, allowing players to use their powers to contribute to the battle without making them completely useless.

[luanle21]

put stalker and turn off all lights have fun

[SpiritShard]

Improved AI and required actions such as disabling generators or shutting down additional turrets would help a lot. There is absolutely NO way to please everyone and the casuals who disregard quick time events as pointless will rage if things get to hard where as people that see the value in quick time events will rage if it's too easy!

 

NOTE: Quick Time events are one of the strongest tools for a developer to use. If done correctly they can take a small cut-scene or short break in the action and actually give the player value in it. Hacking in Warframe is a form of Quick Time Event and honestly without it hacking would be *wait at terminal*hack complete* and the entire feature would be disregarded as worthless.

[deathbymoonrocks]

a boss fight should be an event, an experience

 

he/she is the master of that stage and you are an intruder into their world...their home turf

 

you should feel small and powerless against them, overwhelmed by their power/speed/ control over the surroundings.

 

wile they are lured into that since of power over you, they will have revealed a weakness or two that if your quick and clever enough to exploit, you can turn the tide of battle.

 

 

you want that blueprint you gonna have to work for it!

[Laecerelius]

I think it'd be cool if there was an Infested boss who'd turn the whole room pitch black so you can only see via your flashlights and it'd be agile, leaping between the floor, wall, and ceiling while taking pot shots at you and then quickly leaping behind you or to your side to slash at you with a powerful melee attack or series of melee attacks, then leaps back into the darkness.  Maybe have the entire level be dark as well. 

 

Other than that, I rather like Lephantis and especially the new Ruk.  He can do high damage but it's avoidable and while he does have an invincibility mechanic since you can only hurt his weak spots, I like how he changes as you fight him and blow them up.

[fatpig84]

Boss-o-matic creator.

 

1) insert some lame arse excuse why he is big bad.

2) Make his fight phases.

3) Give him insta kill attacks like Hyena / Jackal.

4) Give him mass AOEs

5) Give him weak spots that can crit for massive damage

 

 

Anyway a good typical Hp sponge is surprisingly, Terramorphous the Invincible of BL2.

He has weak spots that you can crit for massive damage. But he is not immune to damage, so for those who can't aim can still DPS him with sheer damage.

 

His fight has phases, but you can disable his attacking tools while still hurting him (except his blackhole phase which is pretty much gg). And unlike Warframe, you don't have to sit out the phases, if you kill him before his next phase, he will just die.

 

Tada. Pretty simple Hp sponge boss.

Edited November 26, 2013 by fatpig84

[Oxin]

 I will tell you how I would make a boss

3)The boss will have forms that it changes into after it Hp hits 0 the first time it's 1st form sheilds 200 hp 550 2nd 800

2)The boss has no hard cap on damage but can half the damage you do for a short time

3)the boss has more then one form to make the boss fight longer

4)not every level of player can fight the boss because if you start a game out and go for the final boss first thing do you realy think your going to win?

[ragdollomega]

how would i build a boss?

 

i wouldn't. 

 

bosses are inherently boring. because they pigeonhole the player and require them to complete a sequence in a specific way.

I don't know, pretty sure bosses can be fun. Like one of my favorite games Shadow of the Colossus is essentially a series of boss battles.

 

Edit: Don't need to copy the whole post.

 

Also, for making a boss fight. I would make it into stages. Having to use a new strategy each time. Haven't really thought out all the details though.

Edited November 26, 2013 by ragdollomega

[taiiat]

Anyway a good typical Hp sponge is surprisingly, Terramorphous the Invincible of BL2.

i hated every single one of the 'Raid bosses' in BL2. 

 

because every single one had a mapwide AoE blast that did like 75,000dmg. with a cooldown of like, 5 seconds.

the only way to avoid getting hit by it? hide behind that one rock / post / thiing. 

 

not very interesting. doable? well, sure. but extremely boring.

 

it certainly doesn't help that Borderlands is so revolved around dying, and then not dying. 

but that's another story.

 

edit:

I don't know, pretty sure bosses can be fun. Like one of my favorite games Shadow of the Colossus is essentially a series of boss battles.

the things i like best about Shadow of the Colossus, isn't the bosses. while they look pretty, it's the little things that sell me. in Shadow of the Colossus, that was the climbing mechanics, the secrets stuck around all over the place, and the beautiful landscapes. 

 

edit2:

(wow this got long, spoiler time!)

basically - bosses should be doable by just about anyone. this allows pretty much anyone to play your game, and enjoy whatever experience you've set forth.

will it be quick, or really easy for someone that isn't getting into things, or is new to a game? absolutely not.

 

but skilled players with a large amount of experience, should not be the bar for passing a 'test'.

 

all of that knowledge should get you a higher 'score' on that 'test'. so a better experience, one with less / no mistakes, a faster one, and ultimately, one that flows better. 

 

if bosses always operate on this basic ruleset(but not limited to these points), every player should equally enjoy such a scripted experience. completable, but if you really wish so, room for improvement and other fine tuning for that player that sets goals for his/her self.

 

the idea of 'everybody wins' can be directly related to 'everybody has fun'. this isn't actually a bad thing, but it doesn't mean that games need to be boring for anything with the slightest shred of skill, or boring because no matter what knowledge, a part of a game is brutal, rather than enjoyably entertaining, or informatively entertaining.

 

this is also partly why games randomize tips upon 'deaths' in applicable games so often. it's a cheap way to make the player possibly have a spark of ingenuitiy. it's not really all that helpful, but the thought is good. tips like that often frustrate the player more than help them though, especially coupled with some games' horrible iteration time, with lengthy cutscenes that can't be skipped, unnecessarily long loading(if an engine isn't capable of quickly resetting the the environment, that engine needs to be redesigned [FUEL, why do you have like 30 second long loading screens, holy sh*t you're annoying]), and other things that increase the iteration time, which will really aggravate players.

 

Warframe has some of this, where if a player fails at something, if they're solo (quite a few new players are, or choose to be for immersion) they must wait for unnecessarily long 'animations' and camera pans and stuff, which could all be cut out, without a single player thinking down on it. they'd appreciate the shorter iteration time, actually. 

so if a solo player dies fighting a boss (we assume they use up their revives in this process due to inexperience), they must wait for almost 10 seconds on the mission fail screen, then a couple seconds of loading, then 3-10 seconds of starting the mission again, a few minutes to get back to the boss fight, blah blah. 

iteration time can be one of the most frustrating things for players. if a player fails at something only very mildly(such as, let's say, standing one inch too close to some AoE or something and then dying as a result), they probably already know what they did wrong, let them do it again. without extensive time in between. the longer the player must wait, the higher the chance they'll just get &!$$ed and quit the game, and may or may not come back to it later, depending on how they feel after they cool off.

Edited November 26, 2013 by taiiat

[OriKlein]

My notions as follows:

• The boss should have several AI algorithms for how it deals with the player based upon the players' general behaviour, proximity and such.
• The boss should periodically withdraw from engagement and enlist the assistance of lesser minions in order to cover for its flight.
• The fight should be multi-layered, preferably switching through a few backgrounds/areas.
• The boss should use various measures of terrain control and environmental parameters manipulation in order to 'spice' the engagement and prevent the player from attaining a singular comfort zone/battle plan.
• The boss should have relatively mediocre damage that should not destroy the player easily unless the player act foolishly, in which case the boss should be able to pin them down and terminate them.
• The boss should contain at least one 'signaled' attack that can prove devastating (50% or even 100% mortality) unless evaded or cancelled.

Best Regards, Edited November 26, 2013 by OriKlein

[NalkorRN]

how would i build a boss?

 

i wouldn't. 

 

bosses are inherently boring. because they pigeonhole the player and require them to complete a sequence in a specific way.

 

bosses are basically a big flashy version of a Quick Time Event.

actually, a lot of bosses have QTE's in them -.-

 

 

i literally do not think a boss fight is capable to be fun. because of it's inherent flaws.

 

 

that being said, bosses like Golem 2.0 are interesting. i can appreciate the work that goes into it, and it can be a immersive experience.

but was it fun? no, not really. 

 

 

i'd also prefer a boss fight to be easy, than to be brutally frustrating. i want to be able to enjoy the effort put into creating the experience, not the other end of the stick. 

Bosses can be damn amazing if done right, which aside from Ruk's remake, DE isn't exactly great at.

 

Case in point: Black Dragon Kalameet.

[BloodKitten]

kinda like some of the lost planet 2 bosses, bullet sponges, mobile, but slow and telegraphic attacks and weakspot (weakspot that only damage health, other weakspot dont do alot of health damage but temporarly stun and disable the enemy)

Edited November 26, 2013 by BloodHungryKitten

[Etsoree]

For Warframe, I'd definitely make the bosses more skill-oriented for a start. Have it so that players have to actively avoid attacks rather than just stand away or sit in a bubble. Lephantis' Melee head was a good start in this direction, but it was laughably easy to avoid by the slowest of characters, so excitement was lost after about thirty seconds of engaging in combat with that head.

 

Games like Vindictus have the right idea in regards to skill-based combat.

 

Can also use Iron Skin or Link and you wouldn't flinch.

 

A boss fight?

 

Parts where bosses do damage to you with others in the background, immortal, and you avoid their attacks.

 

Kill boss A, B comes down, more powerful with A and B's powers.

 

Kill B, C comes down with A, B and C powers.

 

So on and so forth.

[MauMauMau]

1.  how about actually using that conclave stat besides pvp and scaling every boss fight to that. i shouldnt have to be unsatisified with a new boss release just because i have a good weapon.

 

2. going off this idea certain mechanics in the boss fight should change or be added depending on the level determined by those stats. For example every 10-20 % of hp starts some sort of attack from the boss that has to be countered to not get party wiped. how about incorporating wall running and shooting targets at the same time or having a a certain amount of time to kill x , y ,z before floor panels drop away kind of like how the rank tests are.. 

 

3. if conclave is too fickle then just add different tier modes of bosses with different mechanics . creating / launching these missions are unlocked by either a. conclave or b. rank mastery level.  if its not a automatic balance of everyone in the party then make it a minimum requirement of your personal conclave to even be able to join it so that it eliminates people with low level frames / unranked weapons from messing up the boss run.

 

4. all in all there are plenty of mechanics not looked at like have x seconds to do y damage or the boss does a massive aoe, boss spawns big aoe dots around the area , boss has some mechanic that utilizing your block while actually be useful like perhaps reflecting an attack back at the boss if timed right. room has constant attacks being shot out in the area from all directions that you have to avoid (cough lasers that cant be broken). parkour mini events in the boss fight that help you take down the boss. lasers to help take down the boss or make him vulnerable. finally bosses should have severely reduced cc. 

[fatpig84]

i hated every single one of the 'Raid bosses' in BL2. 

 

because every single one had a mapwide AoE blast that did like 75,000dmg. with a cooldown of like, 5 seconds.

the only way to avoid getting hit by it? hide behind that one rock / post / thiing. 

 

not very interesting. doable? well, sure. but extremely boring.

 

it certainly doesn't help that Borderlands is so revolved around dying, and then not dying. 

but that's another story.

 

Not really. Terra never had such a huge damaging AOE.

Those are like Pyro pete, Hyperius, Voracidous where their AOEs are lethal beyond belief.

 

The greatest danger is Terra swiping players off the arena which makes it an auto loss.

You lose more often being flung out of the arena than dying.

 

Also unlike the other BL2 bosses, his attacks can all be nullified except for the black hole attack.

His tentacles tossing rocks, you shoot em off. Even the rocks.

They fire lasers, you shoot em off.

They try to smack you, you can still shoot it off.

 

So actually by far, he is one of the better bosses.