Obtaining the newer warframes from the perspective of a new player

[EFCJ]

Hello, im a recently returning player by having arm twisted by a friend who just picked the game up and begged me to play with him, so i did just that, now the point i came ask about is the fact that some of the newer frames are so obscurely locked behind some ridiculous currency, tasks, requirements and time to obtain them, was this a conscious decision to deter some players away from obtaining them earlier in their warframe journey? or is this simply a means to get people to cough up some sweet platinum/cash by making them way more convoluted than other regular frames. this post is directly aimed at the following frames Caliban, Citrine and Dagath as these were the point of our discussion (you guys may have more or less to add). 

Caliban was one of the initial frames my friend took an interest in after picking up the game,(to each their own i suppose 😄) but we looked at the requirements to obtain him and you need to be doing so many different things all with their own requisites, for instance as a new player you need to be doing narmer bounties which are way higher than base game or what a new player would be experienced with and need a railjack capable of doing veil proxima nodes for the anomaly shards, why is this a thing can it not be condensed down? 

Citrine after he realised caliban was a little out of his reach at this time we looked at his second choice citrine, seemed fairly straight forward collect stones from a mission and trade them to a npc but oh wow the time investment needed to do this and the shear brain melting boredom of the mission itself why is she so expensive in crystal fragments and why do you then need to craft the parts cant they just be bought fully completed? I'm willing to bet there's a substantial % of the player base who bought citrine outright with platinum or cash of the few that own her anyway.

Dagath this one is the lesser of the 3 im sure no one here has a problem with it, but look at it from the point of a new player first of all you need to be in a clan okay so you join a clan and wait for a key to be crafted now you've gotta spend the syndicate rep of the syndicates you are actively trying to level up so you have two choices forget about the frame or stop leveling the syndicates till you get its frame and weapons, again this one isn't a problem for the active player base who have r5 syndicates and spare rep to spend but for a new player this is a clear fork in the road. 

What makes these regular frames require more work than others like rhino for example? its a straight forward grind for rhino do the boss get the drop craft it, i don't understand the direction to deter newer frames from the newer player base, when those frames are in some cases the reason they wanted to pick the game up in the first place.

Edited January 9 by EFCJ

[MaxTunnerX]

24 minutes ago, EFCJ said:

Hello, im a recently returning player by having arm twisted by a friend who just picked the game up and begged me to play with him, so i did just that, now the point i came ask about is the fact that some of the newer frames are so obscurely locked behind some ridiculous currency, tasks, requirements and time to obtain them, was this a conscious decision to deter some players away from obtaining them earlier in their warframe journey? or is this simply a means to get people to cough up some sweet platinum/cash by making them way more convoluted than other regular frames. this post is directly aimed at the following frames Caliban, Citrine and Dagath as these were the point of our discussion (you guys may have more or less to add). 

Caliban was one of the initial frames my friend took an interest in after picking up the game,(to each their own i suppose 😄) but we looked at the requirements to obtain him and you need to be doing so many different things all with their own requisites, for instance as a new player you need to be doing narmer bounties which are way higher than base game or what a new player would be experienced with and need a railjack capable of doing veil proxima nodes for the anomaly shards, why is this a thing can it not be condensed down? 

Citrine after he realised caliban was a little out of his reach at this time we looked at his second choice citrine, seemed fairly straight forward collect stones from a mission and trade them to a npc but oh wow the time investment needed to do this and the shear brain melting boredom of the mission itself why is she so expensive in crystal fragments and why do you then need to craft the parts cant they just be bought fully completed? I'm willing to bet there's a substantial % of the player base who bought citrine outright with platinum or cash of the few that own her anyway.

Dagath this one is the lesser of the 3 im sure no one here has a problem with it, but look at it from the point of a new player first of all you need to be in a clan okay so you join a clan and wait for a key to be crafted now you've gotta spend the syndicate rep of the syndicates you are actively trying to level up so you have two choices forget about the frame or stop leveling the syndicates till you get its frame and weapons, again this one isn't a problem for the active player base who have r5 syndicates and spare rep to spend but for a new player this is a clear fork in the road. 

What makes these regular frames require more work than others like rhino for example? its a straight forward grind for rhino do the boss get the drop craft it, i don't understand the direction to deter newer frames from the newer player base, when those frames are in some cases the reason they wanted to pick the game up in the first place.

Well I wouldnt really mention rhino because you officially cant craft it when you get the blueprints. You still have to clear a lot of nodes to get the resources or get taxi, rhino is a big illusion. But yeah, its pretty standardized. And yeah, I dont have any of these frames you listed, and Im not a new player at all. Im 100% sure I dont have them cause the grind is a pain because I have literally everything else. What I really like is that circuit gives warframes as well, so after all those years I finally got garuda, khora and other non-primes that are just "oof" to get and totally not worth my time. Good thing theres always the prime I can grab immediately by trading platinum. In any case, if they put all frames in rotation for circuit, Ill be happy enough. It will be a lazy solution that doesnt fix the core of the problem, but it wont matter as I will get what I want.

Edited January 9 by MaxTunnerX

[quxier]

1 hour ago, EFCJ said:

What makes these regular frames require more work than others like rhino for example? its a straight forward grind for rhino do the boss get the drop craft it, i don't understand the direction to deter newer frames from the newer player base, when those frames are in some cases the reason they wanted to pick the game up in the first place.

Do you expect all things (frames, weapons, companion etc) to be accessible from day 0 for everyone without ANY effort? That's silly, imho. You are making new planet, syndicate, mission etc. You want some kind of progression. So you do X then Y then Z. That's pretty normal thing in games.

 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

No. And while it bothers me to some extent considering primes are a thing, I'd like to point out how very broken a bunch of them are.

It's alot of power in the hands of new players. More than they reasonably need / should be having at this point of progression.

Gyre is a good example for this, due to her kit being a whole lot of very heavy damage. She obliterates anything in the standard star chart, even with a 44 capacity setup. If you'd get her right off the bat, how would that even be fair?

Even then, the Circuit is a thing, and it rewards players with frames in normal mode, along with augment mods for them. It's already kind of a big deal.

[EFCJ]

15 hours ago, quxier said:

Do you expect all things (frames, weapons, companion etc) to be accessible from day 0 for everyone without ANY effort? That's silly, imho. You are making new planet, syndicate, mission etc. You want some kind of progression. So you do X then Y then Z. That's pretty normal thing in games.

 

no, I'm pointing out that some even with a decent progression are still locked behind some silly requirements that the regular joe player who plays casually plays cannot attain within a week/s of playing, I'm not talking about someone who knows how to min max everything at mr1 and will nuke tilesets, I'm talking about the people who see a caliban video and think hey i might pick up that game and that character and play only to see the requirements need when you can just get it with your credit card, you talk about progression but anyone can just buy it with cash, the game doesn't say hey this warframe we think you should progress more before buying it with plat they will just take your money, there is no progress system with the market.

14 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

No. And while it bothers me to some extent considering primes are a thing, I'd like to point out how very broken a bunch of them are.

It's alot of power in the hands of new players. More than they reasonably need / should be having at this point of progression.

Gyre is a good example for this, due to her kit being a whole lot of very heavy damage. She obliterates anything in the standard star chart, even with a 44 capacity setup. If you'd get her right off the bat, how would that even be fair?

Even then, the Circuit is a thing, and it rewards players with frames in normal mode, along with augment mods for them. It's already kind of a big deal.

volt can nuke all of the star chart and do zariman exterminate in 30secondsand its a starter frame.

[CrownOfShadows]

You're making a great point and I support you. Acquiring the latest and greatest frame should not be an end-game activity. The build requirements for many of these by themselves cater exclusively to people who have been playing a long time and have big stockpiles, and they are also really painful to acquire the "old fashioned" way time-wise (actually farming them).

I am glad that DE stepped away from RNG boss drops as a way to farm frames because that sucks, but forcing people to play half a dozen different areas all with deep built-in RNG materials is still almost as painful, and also some of these are locked behind many, many hours of syndicate rep. It really feels like there's no clear path to acquire or more accurately build many of these things.

I wish they'd step away from RNG completely, it's a terrible time-gating-in-disguise mechanic that truly wrecks as many people as it benefits, and replace it with clear paths to clear rewards. For this reason the Circuit reward structure is so good. See a frame you want int his rotation? Great, your path is clear (of course building it is another matter, back to a failing system there).

They really need to create missions (or ahem replayable quests) that award material groups as a way to help people trying to build things.

I can guarantee that if there was a genuine replayable quest or raid that awarded a trove of orokin cells that would be one of the hottest items around (if it was good time-to-reward) just as a simple example.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I suppose DE makes the new Warframes requiring the players to engage in the current endgame content on purpose to promote the said content, give veteran players something to do, motivate others to reach that part of the game, and to promote Platinum sales (which can always be used to acquire the latest stuff immediately).

Imagine the requirements of getting Saryn as a new player. You have to clear the great majority of the Star Chart to reach Sedna where you can farm her from the boss. While the farming itself is more straightforward then most of the new Warframes, it still requires a lot of time and effort to reach that stage.

Also, there were always annoying to farm frames in the past as well. Harrow, Nidus, Equinox, Ash, just to name a few.

[PollexMessier]

Cash is probably a significant part of it. But I think it's more complicated than that.

Firstly frames are treated like equipment. Not characters. You're not expected to start the game and just pick whatever you want right off the bat. There's a certain amount of progression to them. The further along in the game you are, the more tools you have at your disposal, the more powerful you become. Theoretically.

And secondly they have to give late game players something to work for. If it's even remotely manageable for a new player to get, it's downright effortless for a late game player to. and that's not particularly good for keeping the late game players around.

Also imagine how utterly flooring it'd be to get hit with needing to decide between 55 frames right out of the gate. The game already gets a lot of complaints about how overwhelming it is after completing vor's prize. Slowly gaining access to more frames as you progress instead of having access to all of them at once mitigates that somewhat.

There's a lot of compounding reasons.

[CrownOfShadows]

I mean the thing is that the veterans are all most likely just buying the new frames outright, but it's the new players who have to farm them. So making the farm requirement or the build requirements or the rep requirements or the story progression requirements astronomical is only hurting one group of people.

Edited January 10 by CrownOfShadows

[quxier]

6 hours ago, EFCJ said:

21 hours ago, quxier said:

Do you expect all things (frames, weapons, companion etc) to be accessible from day 0 for everyone without ANY effort? That's silly, imho. You are making new planet, syndicate, mission etc. You want some kind of progression. So you do X then Y then Z. That's pretty normal thing in games.

 

no, I'm pointing out that some even with a decent progression are still locked behind some silly requirements that the regular joe player who plays casually plays cannot attain within a week/s of playing, I'm not talking about someone who knows how to min max everything at mr1 and will nuke tilesets, I'm talking about the people who see a caliban video and think hey i might pick up that game and that character and play only to see the requirements need when you can just get it with your credit card, you talk about progression but anyone can just buy it with cash, the game doesn't say hey this warframe we think you should progress more before buying it with plat they will just take your money, there is no progress system with the market.

Market is like your average shop in online games. I heard it's even better (I'm glad that we can buy most things!). Having issue with (almost) "no progress market" vs normal progression system is like having issue that you cannot drive a car in platformer game.

And everyone seeing 50+ frames and thousand of gear would think that they have to progress. That tons of content that no one would think they can CAUSALLY get in weeks. Silly requirements? Like 3 days waiting for frame? ~1 day for weapon? Normal Online game practice. It's not great but you can get used to it. And it's not like you cannot farm another frame/weapon. And they are reducing grind: you get Necramech after the Quest, no need to build Limbo's part to progress, removal of some junction stuff, Curcuit (yeah it's horrible but for new player it's good enough).

6 hours ago, EFCJ said:

20 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

No. And while it bothers me to some extent considering primes are a thing, I'd like to point out how very broken a bunch of them are.

It's alot of power in the hands of new players. More than they reasonably need / should be having at this point of progression.

Gyre is a good example for this, due to her kit being a whole lot of very heavy damage. She obliterates anything in the standard star chart, even with a 44 capacity setup. If you'd get her right off the bat, how would that even be fair?

Even then, the Circuit is a thing, and it rewards players with frames in normal mode, along with augment mods for them. It's already kind of a big deal.

volt can nuke all of the star chart and do zariman exterminate in 30secondsand its a starter frame.

Modless volt? "Press X to doubt".

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You're making a great point and I support you. Acquiring the latest and greatest frame should not be an end-game activity. The build requirements for many of these by themselves cater exclusively to people who have been playing a long time and have big stockpiles, and they are also really painful to acquire the "old fashioned" way time-wise (actually farming them).

The build requirements are not that huge in lots of cases. What stopped me from getting a frame is RNG not materials.

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I wish they'd step away from RNG completely, it's a terrible time-gating-in-disguise mechanic that truly wrecks as many people as it benefits, and replace it with clear paths to clear rewards. For this reason the Circuit reward structure is so good. See a frame you want int his rotation? Great, your path is clear (of course building it is another matter, back to a failing system there).

NO, NO, NO! It's horrible system. You see a frame? Great. You need to wait only 1,5 month to get it. Then you need to play hour(s) of boring game. SAME FOR ALL FRAME. OH, not to mention random choices.

Pity shops with reasonable exchange rate are far superrior. You farm stuff - don't get something? Buy parts. Plus if you want to skip all you can buy whole frame/weapon/stuff.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

NO, NO, NO! It's horrible system. You see a frame? Great. You need to wait only 1,5 month to get it. Then you need to play hour(s) of boring game. SAME FOR ALL FRAME. OH, not to mention random choices.

Pity shops with reasonable exchange rate are far superrior. You farm stuff - don't get something? Buy parts. Plus if you want to skip all you can buy whole frame/weapon/stuff.

IDK I think it's really helpful for new players especially. I mean, being able to pick up Mesa via the Circuit is a god-send, because farming her is one of the worst things anyone can put themselves through. Likewise for many other frames, like Saryn, Baruuk, etc. Sure they might be out of rotation, but you still have a selection for the week which is cool.

However if you're saying that all (vanilla) frames should instead be obtainable via a general pity shop - well, I could definitely get behind that and I think that would out-class the circuit system for sure, for exactly the reasons you mention - the circuit is a bit of a slog (and for people who aren't at end-game the randomization can definitely suck).

I'm sure the main argument against this is that there already is a pity shop: platinum. And I would agree, except that they need to make relic farming more fun.

[Raarsi]

I think the Duviri Circuit established a really good standard when it comes to being able to acquire particular frames, especially ones like Ash or Hildryn where it's been traditionally cheaper to get their prime variants than their regular ones.  The systems in Duviri allowing you to try frames that newer players may not have yet is also another good standard for both DE and players, as it allows players to test drive frames that they may be considering buying off the market or if they were considering getting the prime version if that frame has one.

Hopefully with future updates, devs will expand that list of possible frames you can get from the Duviri Circuit to frames like Caliban and Dagath--not now, but eventually.  In the meantime, all I can recommend to the OP and other newer players with this conundrum is to use the time between now and when you can reach the point where you can farm these frames is to check Duviri and keep trying frames out since you'll likely want to get them and max them out for mastery rank anyway.