On Umbra Forma...

[GrimMyfanwy]

With the Whispers in the Walls update, you allowed the purchase of ranged arcane adapters as well as allowing the immediate availability of melee arcane adapters with platinum. This is much appreciated, even though they weren't that expensive, it could be a chore to grind out the 15 Steel Essence (or 50,000 standing... yikes) per adapter especially since, with the RNG element of Duviri, it was easy to find yourself in a position of a constant need of installing them to give your weapon choices a fighting chance. This happened roughly 2 and a half years after they were released (July of 2021. Note: all dates taken from Warframe Wiki). 

The addition of limited access materials, especially concerning the improvement of builds has always seemed to follow this pattern. Even now, we have, in theory at least, another route to farm Archon shards after little over a year (Sept. 2022)(don't get me started on the basic melee arcane drops being on that table... Grim Smash!).

This has held true with one glaring exception: You continue to be excessively miserly with the allocation of Umbra forma (and we aren't just talking somewhat stingy, I mean I expect you all to get visited by the Ghost of Umbra Forma Past, Present, and Future any night now).

Now, if they were still needed universally for the best builds as they were before I could understand and accept this, but that is no longer true. With changes (such as shield gating no longer making armor the only viable endgame tank) and recent additions (such as Primed Redirection for said shield tank as well as things like Precision Intensify, Molt Augment and other various methods to boost power strength), the ideal builds for a majority selection of frames no longer revolve around needing umbral forma but regular ones in their place. 

However the Warframe Gods (i.e. you devs) are a fickle lot and as recent (admittedly warranted, 'tis a fair cop) changes to topaz shards show, balances passes can come quickly and without compensation for the players time and effort. And while even with archon shard changes angering a lot of players due to the difficulty of getting them and their inability to completely revert them (You can't unmake an omelette after you type and enter CONFIRM), a regular player can get, on average 195 shards a year (roughly 91 per year from  the netracells if nothing is changed and 104 from Archon hunts and Khal's weekly.

But you still have Umbra forma locked behind 9 per year, at most, in game (if one can not make time for the few times you offer them as stream drops) that's 6 and a half from Teshin (once every 8 weeks) and, on average, 2 per year via nightwave due to your, frankly, abysmal update cycle of it. Even if your "battle pass" version was more in line with other games (i.e cycling once every 6-12 weeks rather than 6 to 8 months) that still would be only 13-15 per year, to distribute among, what, 54 different warframes? And, unlike Archon Shards, you can't uninstall them to place them somewhere else. 

It has been 5 years since they were introduced (Feb. 2019), isn't it time to open the dreaded timegate and let the little umbies roam free among the players. If nothing else, allow them for purchase for platinum, and for free to play players, if you decide to be so kind, have them be a constant weekly offering of Teshin rather than once every 2 months. That would make the amount 54 a year (the number of warframes... coincidence? I think not, but fate, fate I tell you), still less than half of available shards through gameplay, but much more reasonable on it's own especially if the amount can be supplemented with platinum (which is good for you, yes?).

Allow myself and other players the freedom to experiment with builds (both for warframes and melee weapons) without the fear that if you decide a build is too powerful (which is fine and your prerogative), it would only be a matter of days for us to revert the changes to our builds as opposed to months.

Free the Umbra (and I have been told I use parenthetical statements in my posts too much, what do you think?)!

[Birdframe_Prime]

I would be more in support of this if Umbral mods were even necessary for most builds...

While frames benefit from Umbral mods, because Strength and Health are usually good picks, they're definitely not always the optimal build. Point of argument, I believe that the vast majority of frames can have amazing, game-destroying builds where the Umbral mods would be silly picks.

So why worry about a limited resource, one that's limited for the specific reason of maintaining long-term player return (force them to keep coming back over the year to get the thing they want), when the uses of that resource aren't all that broad when you realistically face the topic?

[GrimMyfanwy]

On 2024-01-16 at 4:14 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

So why worry about a limited resource, one that's limited for the specific reason of maintaining long-term player return (force them to keep coming back over the year to get the thing they want), when the uses of that resource aren't all that broad when you realistically face the topic?

Because I use Umbral mods as an example, not sole reason. This would benefit even non umbral build diversity when you take in to consideration things like augment, exilus, archon mods, etc. Several frames in a defense oriented build would be optimized by several Vazarin and Naramon polarities, but in the current system that would negate equally viable offensive builds that would require more Madurai Naramon polarities.

Edited January 17 by GrimMyfanwy
Got posts confused, my bad

[DistantVocoder]

i'm supporting this, i need Umbra formas for almost 90 melee wepons, most of them requiere 2 UF, and at this rate, it will take me more than 10 years to get this done due to the umbra forma retention behind teshin / alert /gift from devstreams. If i add all warframes needing 2 or 3 in the pool, i m closed to 20 years... i ll be bedridden or dead before i could put mandatory build that should be accessible for legendary players like me since ages !

[Pakaku]

22 minutes ago, DistantVocoder said:

i'm supporting this, i need Umbra formas for almost 90 melee wepons, most of them requiere 2 UF, and at this rate, it will take me more than 10 years to get this done due to the umbra forma retention behind teshin / alert /gift from devstreams. If i add all warframes needing 2 or 3 in the pool, i m closed to 20 years... i ll be bedridden or dead before i could put mandatory build that should be accessible for legendary players like me since ages !

You really use all 90 of those weapons equally and often enough to warrant more Umbra Forma? Focus on your top favourites and invest into those ones, instead of worrying about maxing out every weapon you have

[DistantVocoder]

Citation

You really use all 90 of those weapons equally and often enough to warrant more Umbra Forma? Focus on your top favourites and invest into those ones, instead of worrying about maxing out every weapon you have

I use even more than that, in duviri for exemple, and i already pushed my main weapons/frames to the max with a few exceptions of course ( i insiste on the "few" here). Legendary 4 are closed to total completion with 7500+ hours in the game, and the umbras are one of the things that are missing at this point.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, DistantVocoder said:

I use even more than that, in duviri for exemple, and i already pushed my main weapons/frames to the max with a few exceptions of course ( i insiste on the "few" here). Legendary 4 are closed to total completion with 7500+ hours in the game, and the umbras are one of the things that are missing at this point.

Allow us to rephrase; You really require 2 Umbral Forma on any melee weapons when, mathematically, you don't due to regular Forma and a Stance mod allowing you enough space to have an average of 16-18 points free in an un-polarised slot?

[DarkSkysz]

12 hours ago, DistantVocoder said:

most of them requiere 2 UF

What math are you using to get this number? Even if you use 7 mods with 14 capacity, which you won't (basic build will need 8+7+7+5+7+5+4+4 maybe +5 with tennokai), you still have spare capacity to slot umbras without 2 uf.

Edited January 17 by DarkSkysz

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

And me with 16+ umbra forma(with multiple 3 umbra forma builds on frames) scratching my head going....

What am I even going to use these on?

[GrimMyfanwy]

2 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

What math are you using to get this number? Even if you use 7 mods with 14 capacity, which you won't (basic build will need 8+7+7+5+7+5+4+4 maybe +5 with tennokai), you still have spare capacity to slot umbras without 2 uf.

Here is one flaw in your argument, Basic Build. What I believe DistantVocoder is basing their argument and what I know my argument is based on is Advanced high level builds for things like Steel Path Circuit and other high level challenging concepts. The build you refer to would be fine for regular missions on most weapons, and even fine for Steel Path for some.

Take for example a tennokai of mine I would like to do. For the Bo Prime my mod capacity needs are 18+16+16+15+14+11+11+9+9-10. Now While in theory I can use regular forma for the build and still fit in one Umbral mod, it forces me to sacrifice using a cold mod (so no viral or magnetic) or 2 of the other elements (which means I give up radiation and corrosive. But by using just one umbral forma I get to keep that build flexibility. By using 2, I expand on that weapons flexibility allows for builds that focus either on fast attack without building the combo counter, or status builds that require a prime to maximize. 

That is just one of the 50+ rivens I have to work in

13 hours ago, Pakaku said:

You really use all 90 of those weapons equally and often enough to warrant more Umbra Forma? Focus on your top favourites and invest into those ones, instead of worrying about maxing out every weapon you have

Yes, because there are around 200 melee weapons in the game, and in the circuit, even of you get the choice of 3, that still only gives you around a 50.5% chance of getting one you worked up.

Edited January 17 by GrimMyfanwy
math was off

[GrimMyfanwy]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

And me with 16+ umbra forma(with multiple 3 umbra forma builds on frames) scratching my head going....

What am I even going to use these on?

Well if you had easier access to them you might be less likely to sit on them for the perfect time and use them without fear that you won't have any when that perfect moment does come, which is my point.

[GrimMyfanwy]

On 2024-01-16 at 4:14 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I would be more in support of this if Umbral mods were even necessary for most builds...

While frames benefit from Umbral mods, because Strength and Health are usually good picks, they're definitely not always the optimal build. Point of argument, I believe that the vast majority of frames can have amazing, game-destroying builds where the Umbral mods would be silly picks.

So why worry about a limited resource, one that's limited for the specific reason of maintaining long-term player return (force them to keep coming back over the year to get the thing they want), when the uses of that resource aren't all that broad when you realistically face the topic?

Sorry about my original reply to this, I got my posts confused.

Because as you said they aren't necessary anymore.

Let me put it another way, since you have been playing for the long haul as well. Do you remember when rivens and kuva were first released, how much it cost to reroll them and how hard they were to get in the first place?

Do you also feel that making both rivens and kuva easier to get was a mistake?

How about Oxium, remember when it only dropped in one's or two's off of a single mob? Did them broadening the ease in which you attain it make the game worse.

Your argument about long term player retention could just as easily be applied to those limited (at the time) resources.

Hell, yesterday DERebecca practically admitted that they were abandoning the umbra concept entirely on her and Steve's stream. So with that in mind, give me one objective argument that this change would be to the detriment of the game and the players that can't also be applied to every other resource they effectively sunsetting the rarity on that isn't just based on you disagreeing with another players subjective reasons for agreeing with me.

[DarkSkysz]

2 hours ago, GrimMyfanwy said:

Here is one flaw in your argument

If you really understood about modding, you would guess that 8+7+7+5+7+5+4+4 are numbers with polarity...

Primed toxin, primed range, primed damage, quicken, blood, gladiator, one 60/60 and one combo duration in the last slot. A basic build with no rivens that can work really well on steel path. You still have 23 points left of capacity. Replacing damage for umbra damage would increase the cost by 9 and getting umbra crit would increase by more 9. Then you still have points to spare...

[GrimMyfanwy]

19 minutes ago, DarkSkysz said:

If you really understood about modding, you would guess that 8+7+7+5+7+5+4+4 are numbers with polarity...

Primed toxin, primed range, primed damage, quicken, blood, gladiator, one 60/60 and one combo duration in the last slot. A basic build with no rivens that can work really well on steel path. You still have 23 points left of capacity. Replacing damage for umbra damage would increase the cost by 9 and getting umbra crit would increase by more 9. Then you still have points to spare...

I understood that, and your build sacrifices damage for that flexibility, since you are using those 60/60 instead of the 90's (not to even mention the 165% from prime fever strike and any other primed elementals that are released in the future. you don't need 60/60's because of priming via secondary or sentinel, which gives you so much more damage output than your basic build. 

But since you refuse to engage on the topic of the post and instead feel it's better to argue someone's subjective choice, go ahead, continue with your just good enough builds and have your fun. 

Oh, and continue to hold to that belief while you tell me I don't understand modding, it's amusing coming from you.

Primed Range

chuckles

[DistantVocoder]

Citation

Allow us to rephrase; You really require 2 Umbral Forma on any melee weapons when, mathematically, you don't due to regular Forma and a Stance mod allowing you enough space to have an average of 16-18 points free in an un-polarised slot?

Yes, with a definition of 5 differents builds on a weapon (a,b,c,d,e,f), like 4 for factions and one for armor reaper for exemple, all with differents types of elemental damage, crits and status, the polarities don t match in the end, so again yes i need to put umbras on it cause it s on those specifics weapons these mods are the only redondant with a few on maduraî polarities.

 

Citation

Here is one flaw in your argument, Basic Build. What I believe DistantVocoder is basing their argument and what I know my argument is based on is Advanced high level builds for things like Steel Path Circuit and other high level challenging concepts. The build you refer to would be fine for regular missions on most weapons, and even fine for Steel Path for some.

Take for example a tennokai of mine I would like to do. For the Bo Prime my mod capacity needs are 18+16+16+15+14+11+11+9+9-10. Now While in theory I can use regular forma for the build and still fit in one Umbral mod, it forces me to sacrifice using a cold mod (so no viral or magnetic) or 2 of the other elements (which means I give up radiation and corrosive. But by using just one umbral forma I get to keep that build flexibility. By using 2, I expand on that weapons flexibility allows for builds that focus either on fast attack without building the combo counter, or status builds that require a prime to maximize. 

That is just one of the 50+ rivens I have to work in

Exactly ! you get it ! We are in endgame with almost primed version on each stages of the modding factory here, fighting lvl 2500+ in duviri or whatever !

Edited January 18 by DistantVocoder

[DistantVocoder]

Citation

If you really understood about modding, you would guess that 8+7+7+5+7+5+4+4 are numbers with polarity...

Primed toxin, primed range, primed damage, quicken, blood, gladiator, one 60/60 and one combo duration in the last slot. A basic build with no rivens that can work really well on steel path. You still have 23 points left of capacity. Replacing damage for umbra damage would increase the cost by 9 and getting umbra crit would increase by more 9. Then you still have points to spare...

yea, not endgame build with multiple config slots... you had your point but in the end you have tested nothing...

One of my simplest build > Discipline's merit, Primed Fury, Primed reach, Sacrificial Pressure, Sacrificial Steel, Primed fever strike, Blood rush, Amalgam Organ Shatter, Riven. It cannot be achieved without two umbras formas on it, 3 point left and everything is formated with the exeption if the exilus mod who cost 7 points. Now add 5 config slots on top of this, and you ll get two polarities that cannot match the other configs builds and cost more than it should cause of the polarity mismatch.

It s like this for every crits melee i have. Umbras formas are mandatory and need to be reintroduce in the game !

Edited January 18 by DistantVocoder