Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[Aruquae]

12 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I don’t feel like coffee cakes

Understandable, I was in a weirder mood than usual yesterday. 

 

12 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Because right now I’m capable of changing to play on the level of you lot, running around without a care in the world but still mission completing like a semi-AFK pro, but the reverse does not hold true and people have been arguing about how it’s simply out of their hands when it very much is not and choosing alternatively is a completely reasonable thing to do since the game not only encourages it but sometimes straight up forces it upon us because the playerbase ask for one thing while building for and expecting another and then the monkey’s paw of “This is what you want, isn’t it?” curls another finger

Hmmm now I’m curious… what’s your level of preferable content? And what’s your favorite type of guns. I want to see what this is about. 
Basically a modded build of your favorite weapons with your preferable content. Then I’ll go into the mission to do my thing. (Solo of course)

 

12 hours ago, Merkranire said:

monkey’s paw

Please not the monkey paw, I’ve heard terrible stories about that thing. 

[Merkranire]

50 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Hmmm now I’m curious… what’s your level of preferable content? And what’s your favorite type of guns. I want to see what this is about. 
Basically a modded build of your favorite weapons with your preferable content. Then I’ll go into the mission to do my thing. (Solo of course)

Um…  What do you mean level of preferable content? I’m jumping across the entire range of levels due to rewards, builds, playstyles, and because no one range of level provides everything I want I’m incentivised to move around, making different builds accordingly (if not because of the build). I use Steel Path as the unbalanced gamemode with 4-player’s worth of overcrunchy enemies for what it is, and then the rest of the game for what it is.

I prefer non-SP because of the freedom of builds and loadouts and how it’s more balanced and makes more sense, but that kind of spans the whole rest of the game (though I’m glad I only have to dip into real low content only rarely), and SP does provide some unique options for experiences due to how unfair it can get.

I can make every gun work due to how flexible the modding system is, though I prefer things like rifles, which the Argonak is one of my favourites. I could give you a build for a mission type against a faction, but it’s not like it’s the only one I’d use all the time due to how spread across levels the game is, and there’s not really a favourite singular build for a singular bit of content since I shift everything around so much, content and kit and build

Edited March 1 by Merkranire

[Aruquae]

Just now, Merkranire said:

Um. What do you mean level of preferable content? I’m jumping across the entire range of levels due to rewards, builds, playstyles, and because no one range of level provides everything I want I’m incentivised to move around, making different builds accordingly (if not because of the build). I use Steel Path as the unbalanced gamemode with 4-player’s worth of overcrunchy enemies for what it is, and then the rest of the game for what it is.

Ahhh I see. Basically I was just asking to see if you somehow found a way to make builds that don’t want shot, but do preferable damage. (Not OP per se, but not just tickling the enemy). Preferable content is basically just your favorite mission types. Those missions you throw yourself in because you just like it. For me it’s survival, but disruption is a good challenge occasionally. 

 

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

I can make every gun work due to how flexible the modding system is, though I prefer things like rifles, which the Argonak is one of my favourites.

Understandable, one of the things I don’t like about strong weapons is this fact that one bullet can kill them. Does the Argonak kill like a traditional rifle? (Basically a few bullets rather than one)  

 

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I could give you a build for a mission type against a faction, but it’s not like it’s the only one I’d use all the time due to how spread across levels the game is, and there’s not really a favourite singular build for a singular bit of content since I shift everything around so much, content and kit and build

I guess that makes sense. You Ap did say you enjoy experimenting. Hmmm, have you ever created goofy niche builds? Specifically for frames, but some weapons can work with niche memes. 

[Merkranire]

-deleted-

Edited March 1 by Merkranire
Sorry, wasn’t finished but accidentally submitted, resubmitting

[Merkranire]

8 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Ahhh I see. Basically I was just asking to see if you somehow found a way to make builds that don’t want shot, but do preferable damage. (Not OP per se, but not just tickling the enemy). Preferable content is basically just your favorite mission types. Those missions you throw yourself in because you just like it. For me it’s survival, but disruption is a good challenge occasionally. 

Ah.

🤔 That’s a tricky one. Different missions give a chance to do different things; I like missions like Mobile Defense and other objective defend missions because having to watch out for something other than myself can lead to some pretty intense fights, but I also like missions like Exterminate because it’s a no-frills “Go at your own pace, kill everything” where we’re forced to fight but can do it however we want, including being sneaky with non-invis when possible (not really an option for missions that have enemies always alerted) and the only thing we need to watch out for is ourselves. I also like Defection and Disruption and open world and pretty much most missions in general.

I guess personally I like Exterminate for its simplicity and range of approaches available, plus I can get away with more because I can dictate for the most part when and where a fight takes place.

12 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Understandable, one of the things I don’t like about strong weapons is this fact that one bullet can kill them. Does the Argonak kill like a traditional rifle? (Basically a few bullets rather than one)  

I don’t shy away from any weapon; they all start at the modless baseline, after all.

The Argonak’s a rifle with a full-auto status-focused mode, and a semi-auto crit-focused mode. There’s not a lot of mods I wouldn’t consider equipping on it, and it rarely leaves me scratching my head while thinking how to build it whatever I’m doing.

I guess you could try the Argonak build I referenced earlier in this topic; it’s nothing fancy, but it’s not meant to be either. Straightforward Serration and 90/90 Radiation, accessible without needing to potato the gun due to innate polarity, no conditional frills, does a job with its damage types and status effects and performs accordingly against different enemies and their different weaknesses/resistances, and you can do whatever you want with the remaining capacity. Personally I’d take it to like the first few rounds of Arbitration to preserve that slot and capacity build freedom, knowing full well that’s pushing it, but you could try shooting some level 50 enemies with it and you may find it more your speed in that content (or lower, obviously)

I didn’t come up with a full kit because it was meant to be considered in isolation first and then  the rest of the kit could come after, so that’s open-ended

28 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I guess that makes sense. You Ap did say you enjoy experimenting. Hmmm, have you ever created goofy niche builds? Specifically for frames, but some weapons can work with niche memes. 

Oh for sure, though I’m not entirely sure what constitutes a niche meme build. One of the things this game lets me do is stupid builds that other games would frown upon because they’re so tight with their balance, and not only does this game let me do it, it rewards me with even more stuff to use in potentially more stupid ways.

 🤔 I’ve been leveling weapons lately and not really playing around with focus on Warframe builds because I’m using the gear I’m leveling, but if there’s a stupid build, I’ve either tried it or am willing to. I guess stuff that springs to mind that I’ve done is basic things like max-range Vauban’s Vortex stuck on the roof of the area and sucking bad guys into the sky, spidermaning Valkyr through Deimos. Wormhole is a lot of fun since we can shoot through it and teleport bad guys, been playing Atlas and trying to kill bad guys with his boulder or Rhino and killing bad guys with charge, Wukong the melee tank and Wuclone the ranged DPS is like a two-man dungeon group, especially feels it in Railjack.

If you got suggestions I’m all ears

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

I like missions like Mobile Defense and other objective defend missions because having to watch out for sonething other than myself can lead to some pretty intense fights

I see, so would you use items that are more geared towards single target? Or do you use items such as shotguns (high spread) to regulate who’s getting in to attack the target? 

 

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

I also like missions like Exterminate because it’s a no-frills “Go at your own pace, kill everything” where we’re forced to fight but can do it however we want, including being sneaky when possible (not  and the only thing we need to watch out for is ourselves

I too enjoy exterminate, you can do a ton of stealth finishers to really bring the feel of “space ninja” back to the game. They should add a node that pushes towards being sneaky (spy, but not infiltration, but extermination idk)

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So it's different because it's not """targeted""", and a """targeted""" buff or nerf can only take one step at a time? Is this what you're suggesting? Because if so - it's stupid. Were DE's changes to AoE weapons not """targeted""" at AoE weapons just because they've taken multiple steps like changing ammo and damage falloff mechanics? This is just pedantry.

Nope no one said a targetted nerf or buff can only take one step at a time. But a nerf is a nerf and a buff is a buff, hence why the different words and their definitions exsist. AoE radius nerf = targetted intended as a nerf, ammo economy = targetted nerf to AoE again. No one said a thing is only allowed to be nerfed once. What I'm saying is that taking several steps to achieve something similar is not the same as take less steps to achieve the actual goal.

Oh and with your whole buff is nerf, nerf is buff thing. Do you mean that the upcoming Eclipse nerf for helminth is an enemy buff?

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which would also be the case of the widespread nerfs you yourself have alluded to. Lowering the ceiling of player power would affect the experience of any player using items targeted by those nerfs, and would also affect everything else that's currently compared against those items. Even the items not directly changed would still become stronger in comparison. Only wrong when I say it.

Though I've reminded you before and I guess need to keep reminding you: I'm not just talking about balancing weapons, here. I'm talking about balancing the game as a whole. It's the same as how DE once affected the entire game by changing how the scaling formulas worked when they implemented their S-Curve. This affected everything, from weapons to enemy friendly fire to pets to abilities to Amps to Archwing, which is what it was supposed to do. Likewise, yes, the things I suggest would affect everything. Everything is supposed to be affected. That's the whole point! This is not a problem, this is the goal.

It would affect players quite obviously, but it wouldnt affect other items. Those items would still act the same as they did versus the enemies if used. It doesnt make those items stronger or weaker and it doesnt make the enemies stronger or weaker either. It would make the items hit by the nerf weaker, or stronger if you buff them. That would still only apply when those items are used.

Then you arent talking about nerfs or buffs, you are talking about full blown reworks or rebalances of systems. And why is everything supposed to be affected? That just sounds like you are out of touch with the game. Why does an infested need to get weaker at the same time as a Grineer? Why does a Grineer need to get stronger at the same time as an infested? Which are scenarios that would occur if you aim with a sledgehammer instead of a scalpel, or to put it in more WF-ish terms, when you apply a Zarr to a Vectis problem.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

What's hard for me to grasp is why you think this "power progression" is so important if reaching the higher ends of it isn't hard or demanding in the slightest. Like I've said before, there does seem to be a power progression at place. I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is this importance you're placing on it, and your use of this short "power progression" as an excuse to leave the rest of the game's content and mechanics in the garbage. This is also why DE's removal of MR restrictions from prime frames matters. It doesn't seem that DE actually care all that much about this "power progression" if they'll drop big parts of it in a random hotfix.

The important part is that it gives a sense of actual progression. And even though I pointed it out already you either ignored it or missed it. DE removing the MR restriction from primes is because it was barely a third of the primes that had it. They likely relized years ago that since frames arent automatically an upgrade over a nother there is no need to add MR to the Primes, hence why a small part had MR tied to them to begin with. If all primes had an MR tied to them when they removed the MR for those 11(?) I wouldnt have seen your point in this. But that isnt the case.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You've made a distinction between weapons and frames, but I don't see how this is based on anything but an arbitrary feeling of yours. Is it having multiple things within the same "class"? There are many frames which likewise do the same things within each "class". Loki, Ivara, Ash, and Octavia are all stealth frames. Rhino, Hildryn, Revenant, and Nezha are all tanks. Harrow, Trinity, Oberon, and Wisp can all heal and provide buffs. Is there some threshold before which items within the same "class" can be equal? What number of items is that? If the 8 sniper rifles we have are too much of the "same" within their "class", then what about the dozens of frames that can all strip armor, or CC, or heal their teammates? Are those "classes" not equally crowded? If weapons are "just weapons", then frames are "just frames", pets are "just pets", and Amps are "just Amps".

You also mention an "incentive to use them" when talking about things in a vertical "setup", but that means there's also an incentive not to use the other things lower down on the list. For example, like how your ingame profile shows that you've somehow never used the base Braton or Dera. What incentive do you have to acquire and use those guns? If power progression is so important to you, what incentive do you have to go backwards in your progression and get these? Meanwhile a horizontal "setup" produces no particular incentive to use or, importantly, not use any given thing. Because there's no incentive to not use something, that means there's also an incentive to explore and try everything. For example, like how there's an incentive to explore every frame because all frames (theoretically) stand out and are good. The same could and should be true of weapons, pets, mechanics, damage types, etc.

But warframes arent class based. I'm talking about actual weapon classes, you know shotgun, beam weapon, assault rifle, sniper, bow, dual pistol, dual axes, heavy blades etc. It isnt about "classes", it is about classes. We have too many full auto dual pistols that does exactly the same thing as another, same with sniper rigles, assault rifles, burst weapon and so on. Hence why I've never used the Dera or Braton, because there are too many similar weapons at each MR that just arent unique enough to use. And since I started out with Soma Prime from day 1 there was no reason to pick up a full auto weapon with worse stats since I wasnt chasing MR. And somewhere along the line I grabbed the Dera variant from invasions (thats the place right?) due to it being a gated weapon. Which reduced my need further to pick up the regular version since I had tried the mechanics of it with a better version already. But again, we have too many weapons that are the same (horizontal). Also, picking up and following a vertical system to the point is also not something common as you progress. It's like GW2, I had a friend that replced his weapons each 5 levels or so with rares, the rest of us just followed the natural progression as we went on towards the max level, saving our gold so we could upgrade to the better gear then. So even if something is vertical and there are upgrade options constantly available you can still skip tiers or stay at tiers, and still sense/use the progression.

Horizontal can turn very dull, since you might go grab that perfect weapon at level 10 and then use it forever and never replace it even if you are in the endgame. Like I mentioned outriders. I got my hands on my weapon perks there very early, I then never used anything else really, which happened with each and every class in the game. After getting those perks I just threw them on whatever weapon I got my hands on of the right class and with the highest stats and never looked at anything else. If I got a lego it just ment that I'd use that perk together with whatever lego perk was on the weapon I used without really caring what it was. Dull.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

What makes them stand out amongst each other is not rooted in their stats, so they are for the most part horizontal, yes. But their stats still set them apart from other AoE weapons. Where is the Penta in that list? Where is the Simulor? Where was the Torid before its stats got buffed out the wazoo? Where is the Lenz? The Alternox? These all have access to AoE mechanics, but not the same raw power. This is a vertical progression. These weapons suck and are unpopular in comparison to the AoE weapons which have so much more raw power.

Like I said, you're pointing to the tiny flat bit on the top of the mountain and claiming that the entire mountain is flat. Maybe from your perspective the flat part is all you can see.

It isnt about their raw power, it is about their trash mechanics compared to the others even if they all share being AoE. The power in those primarily used comes in their mechanics, how they inflict their AoE damage. It wouldnt matter how much they'd buff Penta stats, it would still be cursed with a horrible mechanic. And the fun thing is that Torid used to be a meta weapon at one point earlier aswell, but then Saryn got reworked. And now with Torid, while the cloud actually benefitted from increased stats, it isnt something that would increase Torid use, since the cloud is still just a utility that now can deal damage, but nowhere near the levels of those with other mechanics. The incarnon mode is what makes Torid shine, the cloud is still fairly bad due to how it work in comparison to standard AoE weapons.

 

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

How don't they? In a theoretical perfectly horizontal system, all weapons would be equally powerful and what makes a weapon appealing would be different for every person. There might be some variation, but not much. In a theoretical perfectly vertical system, all weapons would evenly progress upwards in power and terminate in a single most powerful thing. There might still be some variation in usage between the top few things which are still fairly similar, but not much. And it's the latter we see in the weapon usage stats: some variation between the top few things, but most of the rest goes unused.

There is no such thing as a perfectly horizontal system since you trade power in one place for power in another. There will always be a pyramid for the stats themselves even if damage is equal on a weapon. RoF, crit, slash, status, multishot etc. would decide the new power paradigm even if sheet dps is identical. Simply because some stats achieve things that others wont, even if they arent direct power improvements. A weapon with favorable slash and puncture would see more use than a weapon that favors impact for instance. And that is before unique mechanics are included. And the same applies to a vertical system, you wont achieve a perfect one. Since there is always the potential for lower items to have an effect that pushes them beyond the point of the highest item in progress. I've had this happen in several vertical games where I've had below top tier items as BiS due to unique mechanics they provide. Like how many players ran around with Thunderfury in WoW (a game as linear and vertical as it can get) long long long after new tiers had been released since it had such an amazing effect.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

See how at higher MRs combined frame usage kind of flattens out? There are still some differences, which is to be expected since like you seem to understand even Warframes aren't entirely horizontal, but it's still overall pretty flat. Despite the few outliers which inevitably receive reworks, most frames are actually pretty evenly good and hold pretty even popularity - at least compared to how skewed weapons are.

Which isnt very odd since there is a handful of frames compared to the amount of weapons we have access to. They are also more specific based on game modes played while weapons are often the same no matter what mission you intend to run. Not only that, but the graph also shows combined usage of frames while you sit and argue that variant weapons should be brought closer. Treating current lowly used base forms as unique weapons instead of combining the overall use of the weapon.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I just told you how it holds up? Fighting lvl500 SP Corpus - which currently takes several hours of endless SP to get to - holds up fine. It's not the same "fast paced" (read: pathetically easy) that we have today, but unless you think that SP should only be a loot pinata for Space Mom's Most Specialest Boy to wail on, I think having enemies that don't fold like cardboard several hours deep into the game's challenge mode is fine. Isn't that the point of the mode? And if you're gonna be mad that enemies are harder to kill, wouldn't the same be true if, like you yourself suggest, the same ceiling is lowered with nerfs?

That means it "holds up" to your "fast paced" view on things. And SP should be a pinata, since we are in the end killing hordes of trash for the most part. Want to make it slower? Add some interesting enemies then, then slow down the uninteresting encounters.

And no, a ceiling nerf wouldnt really impact it, since we are not in the need of the ceiling for a good while in SP. We 1HK things quite far in, so a reduction in that power would just mean we'd hit the end of the 1HK point earlier while leaving anything below that unaffected really. 

Lets say you deal 5 million damage, and up to 1 hour the most eHP an enemy has is 1 million. That means you are 1HKing enemies well beyond 1h. Which means there is room to nerf the ceiling down to 1 million damage since it still means people will 1HK their way to the 1h mark. Obviously it would be a bit more complicated than that, but in essence that is what could be achieved. It would effect regular gameplay really, since there is no penalty to restart after 1 hour. Could be a slight inconveniance in modes like dsiruption.

This would then give DE some concrete damage output to work with for future content. Is it likely they can actually pull off such adjustments, no, probably not since they are just too far into the mess after leaving it unchecked and unmitigated for way too many years. They are more likely at a point where full system reworks would be easier and less time consuming, and with fewer risks of screwing things up in one end as they try to fix another.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And I too want the ceiling to be targeted specifically, likely best done by nerfing how weapons scale while also nerfing enemy scaling at the same time.

Same goal, different approach, you just have it in your head that I'm the devil for saying it in a different way.

Yeah that wont target the ceiling, since you'll hit everything if you target weapon scaling overall. The outliers need to be brought inline really, then if they want to see more weapons further up they can buff those in individual need, either by increasing their stats or giving us incarnons. And nerfing enemy scaling wouldnt help DE with future content really, it isnt that enemies are current hard, the few tough targets we face are currently at a decently good spot. Heck, people still claim stripping is mandatory, meaning that a nerf of weapons that circumvent that would be a good start while leaving enemies alone. If anything, some mobs could likely use a buff instead.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

There's more examples in that thread including all the specifics you kept asking for yet still haven't looked at yet. Maybe go look?

"You can lead a horse to water" or something.

Yeah I'm not really interested in thread jumping to keep on track in  a different one.

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, Aruquae said:

I see, so would you use items that are more geared towards single target? Or do you use items such as shotguns (high spread) to regulate who’s getting in to attack the target? 

I like single target because it’s satisfying to pop critical spots, and I’ll often tune my snipers to really reward headshots while not really doing much on a body shot, but I use stuff like AoE to soften up a group of bad guys for picking off or taking advantage of their weakened state through abilities like Nekros (one of the better incarnations of the concept of “Collect and use your enemies against each other” necromancer; usually games give necros generi-skeletons or ghoul with nothing of the original enemy) and potentially kill weaker enemies in the group, though obviously I can just load up on damage as an option.

I’m not sure what you mean by regulating who gets to attack the target, though I do like shotguns because they’re a big oomph of damage on one enemy, particularly in the face, so I’ll often have mine built to take out a priority target and use other parts of my kit to either enhance it or to take out the less-tough ones. I’ve been meaning to play around with really big spread to turn shotguns into AoE, that seems like fun.

13 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I too enjoy exterminate, you can do a ton of stealth finishers to really bring the feel of “space ninja” back to the game. They should add a node that pushes towards being sneaky (spy, but not infiltration, but extermination idk)

I’d get behind that, though I’m guessing it’d be like a “Here’s how it’s meant to be played, but there’s ways around that”. Stealth is one of those things where you gotta be willing to slow down, though knowing this game there’ll be options to not have to be so sneaky (I think that’s not necessarily a problem, mind you), partly because of how tedious it might become to always have to super stealth, and partly because of the complaining I’d expect would happen

[Aruquae]

26 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I guess you could try the Argonak build I referenced earlier in this topic; it’s nothing fancy, but it’s not meant to be either. Straightforward Serration and 90/90 Radiation, accessible without needing to potato the gun due to innate polarity, no conditional frills, does a job with its damage types and status effects and performs accordingly against different enemies and their different weaknesses/resistances, and you can do whatever you want with the remaining capacity. Personally I’d take it to like the first few rounds of Arbitration to preserve that slot and capacity build freedom, knowing full well that’s pushing it, but you could try shooting some level 50 enemies with it and you may find it more your speed in that content (or lower, obviously)

I see, I wonder what would happen if I push more towards “on headshot” mods such as argon scope. No multishot, just straight up headshots… hmm something to try out later. 

 

29 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Oh for sure, though I’m not entirely sure what constitutes a niche meme build. One of the things this game lets me do is stupid builds that other games would frown upon because they’re so tight with their balance, and not only does this game let me do it, it rewards me with even more stuff to use in potentially more stupid ways.

 

Hear me out, low duration Chroma. Instead of getting buffs then never looking at his abilities, you can push towards what stats you’d rather have at the moment. This is specifically good for elemental ward, considering you can’t change it during the duration. You can choose to have higher armor for a few seconds for quick tanking, or higher health, or you can choose the QoL reload speed when you need it (I’m talking real low duration). His vex armor could be used moreso as a high panic burst of power. When pressured you can activate it (when losing health to fulfill an actual “panic button”) to get a buff to take out an Eximus. With low duration you’re most likely going to have high efficiency, so the fourth can be used as a little companion to help you out.

It’s not a niche idea, but it is considered undesirable. A true niche idea could be an Ivara with Loki subsume. She can fire an arrow at the decoy drawing everyone’s attention to it, but confusing them (no Decoy). Then you can just chill and stealth kill with sleep arrow as a panic (but you wouldn’t need it through a bamboozle combination of her noise arrow+decoy). Wait… I’m going to try that. 
I’ve tried the max range Vauban, there’s just something about ragdolling enemies in his vortex that’s so… satisfying. 
Another thing I want to do is max range Grendel for bowling. I want to be able to eat enemies, then spit them out on a group and watch them fly. 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I’m still lost why you’re talking about that range like it’s a definitive thing. At the upper end, around 40ish (if not a little earlier) and particularly against enemies that do double damage, it starts getting trickier and you start to find what modless combinations by default mix and match well and which ones struggle, but again, the game only scales higher; we’ve got Railjack content and open world bounties and Lich hunting and Arbitrations and Sorties and all the new stuff starting at 50-ish and a myriad of things. Touching into 30ish content, content that’s meant to be on doable side with a modless loadout or whatever non-survival or non-damage mods we may want to equip is a portion of what we do, and certainly isn’t the whole game

Because you said that Star Chart allows you more freedom to build, or full freedom iirc while SP doesnt. Yet we sit here with butt nekkid frames and weapons doing content 5 levels from the star chart max. Leaving very little room to build for what you claimed you want, engaging content. SP on the otherhand can be as engaging or trivial as you like. And Lich hunting and Arbitrations fall off as "build for the content" in public, since you should be prepared because you dont know what you'll face and it is only respectful to be ready to make use of that arbi hour, or be able to avoid 1HKing the whole group around a viral/rad lich etc.

17 hours ago, Merkranire said:

What.

Never let your operative buddies kill? You inconsiderate poopoo face.

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

I like single target because it’s satisfying to pop critical spots, and I’ll often tune my snipers to really reward headshots while not really doing much on a body shot, but I use stuff like AoE to soften up a group of bad guys for picking off or taking advantage of their weakened state through abilities like Nekros (one of the better incarnations of the concept of “Collect and use your enemies against each other” necromancer; usually games give necros generi-skeletons or ghoul with nothing of the original enemy) and potentially kill weaker enemies in the group, though obviously I can just load up on damage as an option.

I do almost completely that too, single target usually, but occasionally a period ball to go boom after ramping up enough damage. I especially love bows with argon scope or something (On headshot procs are satisfying). CC with Nekros to cause chaos? I see.

 

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’d get behind that, though I’m guessing it’d be like a “Here’s how it’s meant to be played, but there’s ways around that”. Stealth is one of those things where you gotta be willing to slow down, though knowing this game there’ll be options to not have to be so sneaky (I think that’s not necessarily a problem, mind you), partly because of how tedious it might become to always have to super stealth, and partly because of the complaining I’d expect would happen

True, I’m thinking this can happen in a Fortuna setting. Where you have to quote out enemies without triggering the alarms before getting to some switch or something idk. Triggering alarms turns the entire section into a minefield of traps (add some parkour skills needed), less so extra enemies to hit. Resetting the alarms and killing the remainder enemies could bring you back to the “normal” part of the mission. Could also add an incentive to keep on doing stealth kills, such as higher multiplier for stealth… OR ENEMIES BEING IMMUNE TO THINGS THAT AREN’T FINISHERS. Idk just some rocky brainstorming. 

[Aruquae]

7 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

I’m not sure what you mean by regulating who gets to attack the target, though I do like shotguns because they’re a big oomph of damage on one enemy, particularly in the face, so I’ll often have mine built to take out a priority target and use other parts of my kit to either enhance it or to take out the less-tough ones. I’ve been meaning to play around with really big spread to turn shotguns into AoE, that seems like fun.

Ah, I was referring to a “choke point” obviously more common in shooters or pvp, but it’s in Warframe too. Basically certain tilesets alllow enemies to come from a certain direction moreso than another direction. You can use that as a choke point to regulate where they’re coming from to make it easier to pick them off. It’s kind of like disruption (as that’s the only node I can think of that really highlights choke point importance).

[Merkranire]

16 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Hear me out, low duration Chroma. Instead of getting buffs then never looking at his abilities, you can push towards what stats you’d rather have at the moment. This is specifically good for elemental ward, considering you can’t change it during the duration. You can choose to have higher armor for a few seconds for quick tanking, or higher health, or you can choose the QoL reload speed when you need it (I’m talking real low duration). His vex armor could be used moreso as a high panic burst of power. When pressured you can activate it (when losing health to fulfill an actual “panic button”) to get a buff to take out an Eximus. With low duration you’re most likely going to have high efficiency, so the fourth can be used as a little companion to help you out.

It’s not a niche idea, but it is considered undesirable. A true niche idea could be an Ivara with Loki subsume. She can fire an arrow at the decoy drawing everyone’s attention to it, but confusing them (no Decoy). Then you can just chill and stealth kill with sleep arrow as a panic (but you wouldn’t need it through a bamboozle combination of her noise arrow+decoy). Wait… I’m going to try that. 
I’ve tried the max range Vauban, there’s just something about ragdolling enemies in his vortex that’s so… satisfying. 
Another thing I want to do is max range Grendel for bowling. I want to be able to eat enemies, then spit them out on a group and watch them fly. 

Oooooh, that Chroma one sounds interestingly dynamic, like a reactive playstyle, and the other suggestions have got me thinking.

Chroma’s one of my rarer-played frames, mainly because I’ve got like 50 frames to play with and only so much time to do it. This suggestion gives me an incentive to switch to him next, thanks.

11 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I do almost completely that too, single target usually, but occasionally a period ball to go boom after ramping up enough damage. I especially love bows with argon scope or something (On headshot procs are satisfying). CC with Nekros to cause chaos? I see.

Oh I meant Soulpunch. I think I phrased my original a little oddly; the AoE softens up enemies and potentially kills weaker ones, and then Nekros can soulpunch a chain of enemies and build up a few summons without breaking combat flow

11 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

True, I’m thinking this can happen in a Fortuna setting. Where you have to quote out enemies without triggering the alarms before getting to some switch or something idk. Triggering alarms turns the entire section into a minefield of traps (add some parkour skills needed), less so extra enemies to hit. Resetting the alarms and killing the remainder enemies could bring you back to the “normal” part of the mission. Could also add an incentive to keep on doing stealth kills, such as higher multiplier for stealth… OR ENEMIES BEING IMMUNE TO THINGS THAT AREN’T FINISHERS. Idk just some rocky brainstorming. 

I like the idea of the minefield, I’m always up for more reasons to bounce around. Though if you’re going to really drill home how important it is to parkour, the mines’ll need to like, really scare players.

Maybe they delete a random forma from the gear that’s equipped 😱 

11 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Ah, I was referring to a “choke point” obviously more common in shooters or pvp, but it’s in Warframe too. Basically certain tilesets alllow enemies to come from a certain direction moreso than another direction. You can use that as a choke point to regulate where they’re coming from to make it easier to pick them off. It’s kind of like disruption (as that’s the only node I can think of that really highlights choke point importance).

Ahh, okay. I think I misunderstood something, as I know what chokepoints are and how they can be important (Mobile Defense was one of the missions that could kick my ass until I started paying attention to where enemies could come from and which ones were definitely worth heading off early so that they started aiming for me instead of the objective)

I get you now, and see why you referred to a target

[Merkranire]

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because you said that Star Chart allows you more freedom to build, or full freedom iirc while SP doesnt. Yet we sit here with butt nekkid frames and weapons doing content 5 levels from the star chart max. Leaving very little room to build for what you claimed you want, engaging content.

Just gonna trim this quote up a little….

I mean sure, I can do things in the whatever-level Starchart is that I can’t do in SP, but I think you’ve taken away an idea that I’m stuck in such an oddly narrow band of levels… I guess?

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Never let your operative buddies kill? You inconsiderate poopoo face.

Er. They do kill…? One of the things I like about this game is that allies can actually do stuff instead of always tickling enemies. I’ve given rescue targets a secondary that I was using okay, and the rescue target made it clear they had some unfinished business where I was like “How about you just keep hold of that” while I’m watching them nail shots and fire like crazy.

Sometimes I tell operatives to sit back because I want to go it alone, and it’s fine because they’re some computer data instead of human beings

[Darvahoya]

On 2024-02-29 at 11:58 AM, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

WITAF was this

Sorry, I will put it more simply. The brilliant people at DE based Warframe on speculations regarding the quantum universe plus the glories and disasters of mankind over our entire history going back even before the reign of Narmer. If you understand this you will see that DE will never take any action on these types of discussions since it's antithetical to the founding principles of the game.

Edited March 1 by Darvahoya

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But a nerf is a nerf and a buff is a buff, hence why the different words and their definitions exsist.

And addition and subtraction are different words with different definitions, yet any addition can also be written as a subtraction. X + Y is the same as X - (-Y). In the same way, a buff is just a negative nerf and a nerf is just a negative buff. They're the same. For example:

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Oh and with your whole buff is nerf, nerf is buff thing. Do you mean that the upcoming Eclipse nerf for helminth is an enemy buff?

Yes, it's an enemy buff. How isn't it? The players using ability will become less powerful than they were before, and as a result the enemies they fight will feel stronger than they do now. These players will deal less damage, meaning that these enemies will survive longer. Increasing the survivability of enemies is a buff to those enemies. Duh. Similarly...

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those items would still act the same as they did versus the enemies if used. It doesnt make those items stronger or weaker and it doesnt make the enemies stronger or weaker either.

Just as those enemies Eclipse players will fight will become stronger in that context, these items will become stronger or weaker in comparison despite not having themselves changed. What's changed is the context. context which absolute numbers are meaningless without. For example, how much is 100? It depends! Cents? Not a whole lot. Crows? That's a lot of crows! Damage in Warframe? Absolutely nothing. Damage in Runescape? A ton! Gallons of water? That could last you a while! Gallons of water in a water treatment plant? Too little to notice.

Numbers only have meaning when that number is put into context. And if you change one number you change the context, so all the other related numbers will also change in comparison. While unaffected items won't change compared to enemies, what they're compared to to determine if they're strong or not will have changed.

---

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What I'm saying is that taking several steps to achieve something similar is not the same as take less steps to achieve the actual goal.

And targeted balance changes to core systems that affect everything all at once will require fewer steps compared to endlessly buffing and nerfing every individual thing in isolation over and over and over again as DE have been doing for years. Which, like, you seem to get...

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They are more likely at a point where full system reworks would be easier and less time consuming, and with fewer risks of screwing things up in one end as they try to fix another.

Yet you've also got a problem with me talking about something you believe is a rework? Which is it?

---

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And why is everything supposed to be affected? That just sounds like you are out of touch with the game.

And why should everything be affected? Because a lot of the game is S#&$. Most Amps are S#&$. All of them are S#&$ compared to weapons. Pet damage is S#&$. Parkour damage is S#&$. Most Archwings are S#&$. Most damage-dealing Warframe abilities are S#&$. Most weapons are S#&$. Most damage types are S#&$. Most factions scale like S#&$. Environmental damage is S#&$. K-Drives and Kaithes are S#&$.

If I'm "out of touch" for not believing that the majority of the game's content and mechanics should remain as trash to be completely ignored, then I don't want to be "in touch".

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And since I started out with Soma Prime from day 1 there was no reason to pick up a full auto weapon with worse stats since I wasnt chasing MR.

Which is what you get with a vertical system. Thank you for illustrating it. If the Dera and Braton weren't so terrible in comparison then you might have had a reason to pick them up, or at least not have had a reason not to pick them up. You might have a reason to expand your arsenal progression and try these weapons out.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Horizontal can turn very dull, since you might go grab that perfect weapon at level 10 and then use it forever and never replace it even if you are in the endgame.

But it's not dull for you to have picked up the Soma Prime on day 1 and then get to use it forever? Or for a player to pick up Kuva weapons at MR5 and use them forever and never replace it even with they're in the endgame? 🙄

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah I'm not really interested in thread jumping to keep on track in  a different one.

Then continue to be ignorant. All of the answers you seek are there where it's more on topic.

[HazelMeade]

On 2024-01-20 at 4:16 AM, Berzerkules said:

I've been playing half as long as you and if I join any pub mission I expect to play follow the leader unless I load in first.

We all know that, but I will argue (and have argued) that it's bad game design.  It's especially crappy for new players who may literally not even be able to keep up and get XP.  Most games at least disincentivize end gamers from playing in the same missions, but WF actually incentivizes them to in many ways.

Edited March 2 by HazelMeade

[HazelMeade]

On 2024-01-24 at 5:44 AM, Nira said:

If we're talking clashing gameplay styles, my pet peeve is being in a squad with Khora. Not including Limbo I don't think there's any ability that disrupts like Strangledome. And a lot of the time in pubs I notice the Khora player will not be Whipclawing/otherwise killing the dangling mobs.

Divine Spears and the new Tentacle Swarm both share this problem, holding enemies separated which defeats both melee AOE and short to medium range gun AOE.  And it only gets worse when they max ability range.  It's not even a play style issue, it's a basic design flaw in the game, making abilities that actively hinder other players.  And it's not new, I talked about this in my 2016 review of the game.

For another example, try playing Titania with a Volt in your group, and count how many walls you don't smack into.

Edited March 2 by HazelMeade

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I mean sure, I can do things in the whatever-level Starchart is that I can’t do in SP, but I think you’ve taken away an idea that I’m stuck in such an oddly narrow band of levels… I guess?

I still have a hard time seeing what it is the Star Chart allows you that SP doesnt. And no one has narrowed the bands aside from you when you said Star Chart allows more options than SP, since the Star Chart is that narrow. You havent provided any unique playstyle that SC allows that SP doesnt, you have just provided run of the mill damage building.

And no, having spare capacity and mod slots does not equal a playstyle, since it doesnt do anything aside from alter your power. Things still play the same in the mission. And if you are thinking of PT and other types of stats, those work in SP aswell and are even promoted on some weapon that make use of those stats. So what unique thing is it you simply cant use in SP?

25 minutes ago, HazelMeade said:

We all know that, but I will argue (and have argued) that it's bad game design.  It's especially crappy for new players who may literally not even be able to keep up and get XP.  Most games at least disincentivize end gamers from playing in the same missions, but WF actually incentivizes them to in many ways.

Those other games also have ghost town low level content, which is far worse than a new player swooshing through missions due to others. And those other games also tend to have forced co-op at the same time, which is the reason for those ghost town content pieces. WF is fully soloable. We are also nearly 100% spared from ghost town content thanks to high levels and low levels being able to play together at the snap of a finger.

[HazelMeade]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We are also nearly 100% spared from ghost town content

Do you even play this game, bruh?  RJ is in general a ghost town.  SP is a ghost town except for a few specific missions that are useful for farming, and even then it's pretty much all premade groups, no pubs.  At certain times of day it takes 15-20 minutes to even get another player in Tyana Pass.  I usually play solo and have been surprised many times to finish a mission and realize I had left myself on pub but not gotten another player at all.

TL;DR: Warframe is FULL of ghost towns.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

40 minutes ago, HazelMeade said:

We all know that, but I will argue (and have argued) that it's bad game design.  It's especially crappy for new players who may literally not even be able to keep up and get XP.  Most games at least disincentivize end gamers from playing in the same missions, but WF actually incentivizes them to in many ways.

Those other games also have ghost town low level content, which is far worse than a new player swooshing through missions due to others. And those other games also tend to have forced co-op at the same time, which is the reason for those ghost town content pieces. WF is fully soloable. We are also nearly 100% spared from ghost town content thanks to high levels and low levels being able to play together at the snap of a finger.

Part of the reason Warframe's system is even better than that, is that other people on a player's team can situationally get MORE experience from OTHER people's kills, than their own, depending on which pieces of gear they're trying to level up at the time. This is moreso things like companions and weapons that you don't like using... generally, pets have to make their own kills to get experience, and you have to use the weapons you don't like, just to level them up... but on a team, you're sharing all the experience from everyone else's kills, regardless of you actually killing things or not. It's a novel way to address the issue, which has encouraged leeching, but overall, I'd say it's a good mechanic for Warframe, and truly keeps it a co-op game, where you're not "stealing" kills from other people and hindering their progress.

I especially like being able to bring my fully geared endgame builds in to help my friends that I introduce to the game, to act as support to them. I let them run ahead and kill everything, if that's what they want to do, and I hang back, providing cover fire on enemies that spawn in rooms behind them, and provide healing in the case of Wisp or Inaros or Oberon. I get to supervise, advise, and help, without stressing about playing the mission "with" them.

[HazelMeade]

1 minute ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

but on a team, you're sharing all the experience from everyone else's kills, regardless of you actually killing things or not. It's a novel way to address the issue,

Unless they're end gamers who stacked movement speed, in which case they're so far ahead of you you're out of affinity range.  It happens all the time to new players, and is a horrible experience.

But I already said that, and you ignored it.

[Paroe]

11 minutes ago, HazelMeade said:

Unless they're end gamers who stacked movement speed, in which case they're so far ahead of you you're out of affinity range.  It happens all the time to new players, and is a horrible experience.

But I already said that, and you ignored it.

I play with low MR players all the time, personally, as an MR 21 whose original account was from the closed beta buy in. 
The most common question i get is always "how do you move so fast?", since the importance of bullet jumping and parkour skill is never really taught to new players. 
The most common complaint is that no one explains boss fight mechanics and harass them over being slow. Its never "STOP DOING SO MUCH DAMAGE I CANT PLAY". I have quite literally watched low MR players doing their first eidelon hunt get bullied by legend players for not having a good amp, for being late, for using K-drives and then brought them into a private run to explain and answer questions. 

And oh god the ropalyst. People absolutely REFUSE to explain the ropalyst and will either silently solo it with insta phase weapons or spend 40 minutes harassing newbies when they use up all their revives because they couldnt brute force it and shield gate abuse for infinite life.
 

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And addition and subtraction are different words with different definitions, yet any addition can also be written as a subtraction. X + Y is the same as X - (-Y). In the same way, a buff is just a negative nerf and a nerf is just a negative buff. They're the same. For example:

That is simply due to how math works, which has nothing to do with language itself. Nerf and buff however is tied to language and came about to describe two different actions. Or are we also going to claim that a nerf in a game refers to an imaginary space cow aswell as a kids toy, and buff refers to people with a specific interest or outstanding physique even though we are talking about things specifically tied to a game? Which at the same time means buff also refers to a kids toy and an imaginary space cow.

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, it's an enemy buff. How isn't it? The players using ability will become less powerful than they were before, and as a result the enemies they fight will feel stronger than they do now. These players will deal less damage, meaning that these enemies will survive longer. Increasing the survivability of enemies is a buff to those enemies. Duh. Similarly...

It isnt though, since enemies still have the exact same eHP and mechanics that might circumvent that eHP to everything else. What has happened is the skill having recieved a nerf, which is very different since it only affects that specific skill. The enemies are still 100% the same as before.

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Just as those enemies Eclipse players will fight will become stronger in that context, these items will become stronger or weaker in comparison despite not having themselves changed. What's changed is the context. context which absolute numbers are meaningless without. For example, how much is 100? It depends! Cents? Not a whole lot. Crows? That's a lot of crows! Damage in Warframe? Absolutely nothing. Damage in Runescape? A ton! Gallons of water? That could last you a while! Gallons of water in a water treatment plant? Too little to notice.

Numbers only have meaning when that number is put into context. And if you change one number you change the context, so all the other related numbers will also change in comparison. While unaffected items won't change compared to enemies, what they're compared to to determine if they're strong or not will have changed.

And the whole point of the meaning behind the words buff and nerf is that the affected target does change directly. So if you nerf a weapon the weapon is nerfed but the enemy is not buffed since nothing about the enemy changes, and it is the same the other way around. Just as if you want to get weapons closer, the nerfed weapon got nerfed but the untouched weapon did not get buffed, it stayed the same.

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And targeted balance changes to core systems that affect everything all at once will require fewer steps compared to endlessly buffing and nerfing every individual thing in isolation over and over and over again as DE have been doing for years. Which, like, you seem to get...

Not really what I'm refering to. I'm refering to you nerf A, buff B to achieve C instead of just targetting C directly without the risk to screw something unrelated up with A and B on your way to C.

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yet you've also got a problem with me talking about something you believe is a rework? Which is it?

Yes, because the two arent mutually exclusive. One can recognize which would be easier, that doesnt mean that one thinks it is automatically a good idea. While individual changes over time will result in things practically never getting fully "fixed", doing full reworks would have way too much impact on the game overall. We can see it in plenty of other games that does sweeping changes, it halts most other development, it is a risk aswell regarding how well it will be recieved in the end, it may turn out worse etc. WoW dropped in numbers several times over due to their massive talent tree changes, another game died because it took them a year or so to rework everything which led to barely any new content and bleeding players. And since WF is a F2P they rely on content releases over reworks in order to keep players.

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And why should everything be affected? Because a lot of the game is S#&$. Most Amps are S#&$. All of them are S#&$ compared to weapons. Pet damage is S#&$. Parkour damage is S#&$. Most Archwings are S#&$. Most damage-dealing Warframe abilities are S#&$. Most weapons are S#&$. Most damage types are S#&$. Most factions scale like S#&$. Environmental damage is S#&$. K-Drives and Kaithes are S#&$.

If I'm "out of touch" for not believing that the majority of the game's content and mechanics should remain as trash to be completely ignored, then I don't want to be "in touch".

That isnt at all what I refer to or asked. Look at the example I provided in connection to the question. But I guess removing the context is your jig.

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Which is what you get with a vertical system. Thank you for illustrating it. If the Dera and Braton weren't so terrible in comparison then you might have had a reason to pick them up, or at least not have had a reason not to pick them up. You might have a reason to expand your arsenal progression and try these weapons out.

You say "terrible in comparison", in comparison to what on the Soma P? Increase damage output on the Dera and Braton and I'd still use the Soma P due to fire rate, mag size etc. Unless you want to remove all the things that make the weapons unique. The appeal isnt rooted in the vertical. You also still ignore the multitude of bland and generic weapons.

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

But it's not dull for you to have picked up the Soma Prime on day 1 and then get to use it forever? Or for a player to pick up Kuva weapons at MR5 and use them forever and never replace it even with they're in the endgame? 🙄

But I didnt use it forever. I just happened to skip some other generic full auto weapons. You also make it sound like there is a weapon called Kuva since you treat them all as a singular. Nevermind that a player might use several different Kuva and Tenet weapons, and eventually also replace them by something. I personally dont use them anymore. I'm using old weapons now with mechanics that I prefer, since they recieved mechanical updates and not just blanket stat buffs.

15 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Then continue to be ignorant. All of the answers you seek are there where it's more on topic.

Alrighty then!

[HazelMeade]

29 minutes ago, Paroe said:

And oh god the ropalyst. People absolutely REFUSE to explain the ropalyst

Haha.  I remember a couple times wondering why I couldn't mount him, and the whole group thought it was bugged and left... before I read the wiki page and realized someone else had always been one-shotting the shield without me noticing.  The game is extremely poor about introducing mechanics.  (My favorite example is the drop rotation system, which AFAIK still isn't visible at all in game.)

Edited March 2 by HazelMeade