Is MR34 a joke?

[Binket_]

Genuine question, DE:
Who is this for?
Clowns? The Suits who work 100 hours a day?
Depressed people on the verge of death? The demons of some hell circle?
Masochistic lunatics so deranged that it's a danger to public safety?
I don't get it. Where are we going with this?
^{I mean, the answer most likely could be "registered losers"-- but that's not good for PR now is it?}

I don't expect Mastery Rank tests to be even a mote of difficulty.
Warframe as a whole killed that notion a few years ago.
... but this?

2 minutes to just... "not die" again Level 100 Infested.
When I can also just go into Operator and hold crouch to avoid any and all damage.
^{That is assuming I'm capable of dying to anything not on Steel Path anyway.}

Here I thought Netracells were "easy to a fault".
Like, repeating the first 3 MR tests for the MR31 to MR33 tests?
Okay, it's a cute novelty to "show how far you've grown".
... but nobody is going to take "sit still for 2 minutes while being completely intangible as Operator" seriously.
We're at MR34. The least you could do is... I dunno, throw some Level 400 Infested in there.
^{It wouldn't be a HUGE improvement, but it's something more than an eyeroll!}

 

It's one thing to have a game so easy that even the spider in the corner of my room can play it.
It's another thing to make it so boringly easy that even the spider would rather wish for death under my own hand.
^{Poor thing is gonna need therapy for months...}

This forum is for feedback. I am not intending this to be "dev-bashing", it's purely unfiltered feedback.
Anyone with a pair of hardly-functioning eyes can see through this facade, DE. It's not Dev-bashing when it's not even subtle.
Where is any reason to stay engaged in the game? It keeps get streamlined to the point where the player doesn't matter. The game plays itself.
Like it or not, you can't extort funds out of a macro-script bot meant to farm the game you built-- but what choice do we have? It's either play like a robot or DON'T.

_{At this point? All I would remember Warframe for is "that soul-crushing experience that I kinda had to deal with because nothing else on the market was a viable option."}

[0bsi]

I mean yeah, I literally laughed when it started, going "is that all?"   I expected more rounds, getting harder.... but nope, just the one.

But very few of the mastery tests are an actual challenge, many of them are a case of finding which cheese gets you through, and I think that's fine.  By the time you get to MR30 and earn the right to blessings and whatnot, anything past that is just extra sprinkles ontop of the cake really.... so does it really matter that the MR tests beyond that are laughably easy? 

I actually appreciated it being a quick easy thing to pass, so it was done, I got my shiny tablet and back onto doing other stuff  -- I kinda see that as being our reward for having got to the point we are at - not having to suffer through a MR test that might be difficult.

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

We're at MR34. The least you could do is... I dunno, throw some Level 400 Infested in there.
^{It wouldn't be a HUGE improvement, but it's something more than an eyeroll!}

Not joking. For a long time most players accepted that it's better for those tests to be "relatively easy", especially when MR hardly equates to skill. No reason to make them "harder" when all we get past MR 16 are mostly considered neat perks. 

[Binket_]

Just now, NekroArts said:

For a long time most players accepted that it's better for those tests to be "relatively easy", especially when MR hardly equates to skill.

I just figured it'd be something above "the bare minimum of Steel Path" for what I need to do.
... hell, at least like... ANYTHING but just stand around for 2 minutes!

[DstroyR_Prime]

What you expect for? Something kinda "Destroy 9999 lvl corrupted Jackal as drifter without being damaged"? I think, our stealth, precision, velocity and endurance skills were good tested in previous MR tests, btw.

[Binket_]

On 2024-01-28 at 2:17 AM, DstroyR_Prime said:

I think, our stealth, precision, velocity and endurance skills were good tested in previous MR tests, btw.

Yeah, those ones were fine. I actually enjoyed those a lot more because- despite any difficulty- they AT THE VERY LEAST tried to use some level of cognition involved.

As infamous as the MR9 test is, it's only because players have been accustomed to being explosion-addicts rather than actual NINJAS as the game implies.
I got nothing against the dropping of the "Ninja" aspect in the game-- but at least make me feel more than "Joe the Intern".

Partly why I insist we get a proper tutorial. One that shows the player how things work. Vor's Prize doesn't touch on anything of value.

[tel__arin]

any MR 30+ is just to account for the increasing amount of experience coming from new equipment. Anyone that strives for that is just a completionist or a old player. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 6 heures, Binket_ a dit :

Yeah, those ones were fine. I actually enjoyed those a lot more because- despite any difficulty- they AT THE VERY LEAST tried to use some level of cognition involved.

As infamous as the MR9 test is, it's only because players have been accustomed to being explosion-addicts rather than actual NINJAS as the game implies.
I got nothing against the dropping of the "Ninja" aspect in the game-- but at least make me feel more than "Joe the Intern".

Partly why I insist we get a proper tutorial. One that shows the player how things work. Vor's Prize doesn't touch on anything of value.

Just so you know.

The Kestrel exists. It doesn't matter how hard the Mastery Rank tests lock you into melee and stealth. The Kestrel is a melee weapon that deals with stealth in the best fashion possible in these missions :

You can at a safe distance send an enemy target to the stratosphere, ensuring that other enemies will not find the body out. This weapon is a MR0 weapon we're talking about.

I've had a friend struggle for a week on this test, yet didn't need much practice when it came to throwing mobs out of platforms, after I went in for a couple explanations about how the weapon and its knockbacks work.

 

MR9 and 19 are pretty much a walk in the park if you use this weapon, as you don't even need to deal damage, you just need to throw enemies off into the void, which is easy because there's basically no walls, and even if you did need to do damage, just a couple damage mods would suffice.

These tests aren't difficult in the slightest once you have sufficient game knowledge.

 

 

Then there's the Leg4 test. Heard someone started the test with Inaros then left to go to the toilet, only to return seeing they passed the test.

If you spent enough time grinding out weapons so as to rank them all, then you should most definitely know a thing or two about modding/playing the game. Knowledge IS a skill.

Modding is taught only through experience, which is a good and a bad thing, it's absolutely rewarding when you figure things out and mod properly, but it's also terrible of a learning curve when you know some garbage frames like Rev exist and have players completely bypass all the knowledge from damage taken because of a balance oversight; certainly doesn't help this is a frame that's always very recommended new players. Can't wait for it to be vaulted so players can learn to not stand still in a gun fight again.

[Binket_]

13 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Just so you know.

The Kestrel exists. It doesn't matter how hard the Mastery Rank tests lock you into melee and stealth. The Kestrel is a melee weapon that deals with stealth in the best fashion possible in these missions

Yeah, I know. That, along with standard Glaive, standard Halikar, Banshee+Gunblade and even the Skiajati if a player is willing to go that far for it.
There are a bunch of ways to do it. I even went back and REDID it with the Korumm just to prove a point to players.

It's hardly difficult by any means-- but the fact that people have to use even a single milligram of brainpower makes it enough to fail?
That's... not a good thing. I know some people struggle with certain things, but basic stealth in a """ninja game""" shouldn't be one.
^{Even though literally nobody calls it "Space Ninjas" anymore and for good reason. We're more "Space Mercenaries" if anything.}

Unfortunately, DE really seems to be catering to that market and it drives even basic players _{(I.E. ones who can read a single wiki page without dying)} insane.
The MR34 test is- simply as I can put it- a complete inverse of everything that makes a game enjoyable.
There's nothing there.

15 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

These tests aren't difficult in the slightest once you have sufficient game knowledge.

Dare I add to this, Warframe's """difficulty""" in it's entirety is a DIRECT INVERSE of game knowledge.
Something that is truly an extreme in digital arts, though I don't think it's a good one.

The more you know, the less fun the game can become in a way.
Unfortunately, that's also not a very good way to develop your game either. It's essentially telling people to... stop being people.
It's natural to want to learn, it's natural to improve. Hell, I'd say- in some forms- it's IMPOSSIBLE to not learn.
... and it's often in the vain attempt to "make the game accessible"?

It doesn't need to be difficult though. We've all accepted that by now.
It just needs to be engaging. Difficulty is a single way to make that happen, but it's not the only way.
Precisely why I get on DE's case for that, they're fixated on flash-in-the-pan moments. Nothing lasting past the initial update drop.

Once you learn how Warframe works, it stops being fun.
I may learn how games like Bravely Default, Dynasty Warriors, One Step from Eden, etc, etc. work.
They don't become less fun in the process, I dare say they become MORE fun. I've found new ways to ENGAGE with the game

15 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If you spent enough time grinding out weapons so as to rank them all, then you should most definitely know a thing or two about modding/playing the game. Knowledge IS a skill.

Let me clarify with this:
"There is a difference between Knowledge and Wisdom."
^{Of course, exact definitions differ between person to person... but it generally follows the idea I'll explain, so bare with me.} 

Knowledge is the accumulation of academics. The Wiki immediately comes to mind.
Wisdom is the performance of knowledge and the gain of experience.

Knowledge is knowing the ingredients of bread and the process to make it, but Wisdom is someone who has been baking it for years and can tell when something's off.
Vice versa... Wisdom alone can figure out how to swing a sword, but Knowledge can help fine-tune it in ways that make not occur naturally.

By the time I have reached MR34, I have most likely accumulated enough knowledge on the game.
Enough that I should be expected to know enough to have my wisdom challenged and tested in new ways.
I'm not asking for a god damn IQ test, mind you. I'm asking that I'm not tested on the same degree as a pet rock.

DE often touts "accessibility" so people can play the newer updates-- but at the cost of ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE with the game.

• If players are lost, they're gonna need some guidance and no amount of "Do what you want :) :) :)" is gonna fix that.
• Vor's Prize barely elaborates on some core functions. Only just showing some creepy old fossil's face taking up 60% to 80% of the screen.
  • There are FAR MORE players that think the Foundry can only build one thing at a time than should be allowed.
• The Wiki team should not have to carry this game so hard.
•  NO, word of mouth is NOT a good idea. I do not get paid to babysit and people are not teaching the things that NEED to happen.
  • There is a reason people want things like Wukong, Revenant, Khora, etc. nerfed. It's precisely BECAUSE they're so easy to abuse.
  • Especially when Warframe Youtubers generally either fall into the "meme" category... or just produce """build videos""" involving them.
  • Meme category is fine, but the builds? _{So help me god if I find one more "Gloom" build...}

... And unfortunately, this MR test is but one of many victims to DE's insist pandering to the lowest possible skill ceiling.
It's not "power fantasy" anymore, it's just power creep. Plain and simple.

 

19 hours ago, tel__arin said:

any MR 30+ is just to account for the increasing amount of experience coming from new equipment. Anyone that strives for that is just a completionist or a old player. 

It's not just an MR Test-specific issue, mind you. This plagues the entire game as a whole, but it's especially apparent here.

"Oh, we make the game accessible so that anybody can complete the main content!"
You know what? If I close my eyes hard enough, maybe I can see it DE.

MR34 is so out of the way that the logic there falls down, shatters on impact with the floor and grows the dust into an even more bigger problem-tree.
It's BECAUSE it's for older players, completionists or those who just want go further beyond. They're just gonna ignore that? A lot of them still DO buy stuff y'know.
We shouldn't have to villainize actually wanting to do better. Shocker that some people get tired of every game have an "Super UWU baby mode" for it's standard.

Last I checked, Warframe was never difficult. It doesn't need to be difficult, it needs to be engaging.
If they keep making things like the MR34 test? It's not engaging, it's just a chore.
I have a more thought-provoking and entertaining washing the dishes than I do for most of Warframe's content.

 

This same "Dumb it down" mentality shows in places like Mirror Defense. _{Which feels like a step back from the already questionable Defenses.}
Instead of rewarding the player for being able to do objective better, it simply tells you to slow down because "you're too good at this, pal!"
The original reason for grabbing the bits and bobs was because it gave you the pity currency for Citrine. Nobody actually cared for the shields.
There is no pity currency for that in the Sanctum missions. Only an (borderline essential) RNG-fueled mod drop for the Grimoire.
... on rotation C. 4 Waves (8 rounds if you include both trips) that we cannot speed up in any way.

If you can kill the enemies fast enough _{(which is not hard to do, mind you. This is Warframe after all.)} you don't need to pick up the floating things.
Not only are you not required to, you don't really... get much out of it. A small defense boost, that's it. Won't matter when our nukes reach the whole map.
You end up with a handful of unkillable players, who have infinite resources to keep every threat at bay and they're only functioning at HALF POTENTIAL most times.
 

At least the original Defenses were based on the destruction of all enemies.
Something the player has some control over to a degree. _{(For better or for worse)}
But since they're not always going to spawn in a timely manner, it's generally less favorable to other Endless missions.

It's also why Disruption is so widely enjoyed.
Most of the people can't enjoy it are those who don't have the ability to audibly detect incoming targets.
... which by the way, is a VALID reason! One that DE can very well fix.
Do that and it's the perfect gamemode.

 

MR34 test is simply my way of asking DE for the moment: "Are you really that blind?"
Sure, maybe there's some vagrant excuse on DE's part for the latest content being... well... hollow, to put it nicely.
But this is a prime scene of "Really? How long is this charade gonna keep going?" because people aren't gonna have good graces forever.
^{Realistically, the only thing stopping me from getting off Warframe is a reliable income and that's it.}

 

 

 

Anyway, long post. I know.
I like combining replies and elaborating on the post itself.

[CrownOfShadows]

I mostly agree. Something like 'solo the 60 eyes' would've been more on point.

I think at this level the tests should be extremely difficult, or at least demand a display of some deeper knowledge of the game. It's important that the lower tests are relatively easy, but up at L4 these tests need to be re-thought / re-examined imo. If there's anywhere in the game more suited to difficulty, it is honestly these tests. If there was an L4-only mission, you'd expect that to be freakin hard, for example (sounds dope, actually, hm... what if instead of a test a special MR-only mission unlocked that could only be run once a week/month... maybe could be practiced without rewards like the archons... don't mind me just spit-balling).

The only counterpoint I see is that the reward would need to be balanced accordingly, which is honestly probably the fairest reason for not making them hard. The MR30 test is a real landmark because of the blessings. Putting that behind a super difficult qualifier would feel fair, but if the L4 test was super hard and the reward was just the usual, there'd be complaints the other way.

So ideally we dream up some useful, practical unique rewards for each legendary test and combine that with a really hard and unique test - which would be satisfying - OR... we just have a relatively lame test with a relatively lame reward. As with most things, I think it comes down to dev time.

 

[0bsi]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I think at this level the tests should be extremely difficult, or at least demand a display of some deeper knowledge of the game

Why though?  I agree the Legendary tests were all laughably easy, but why make them significantly harder than any of the other tests - that makes no sense either.

All you get is a small amount of extra standing/trace capacity and a legendary core that's too rare to even want to ever use... it's not like you're getting anything particularly special at those levels - other than bragging rights of having no life and the badge of a completionist.

[CrownOfShadows]

18 hours ago, 0bsi said:

Why though?  I agree the Legendary tests were all laughably easy, but why make them significantly harder than any of the other tests - that makes no sense either.

All you get is a small amount of extra standing/trace capacity and a legendary core that's too rare to even want to ever use... it's not like you're getting anything particularly special at those levels - other than bragging rights of having no life and the badge of a completionist.

 

20 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The only counterpoint I see is that the reward would need to be balanced accordingly, which is honestly probably the fairest reason for not making them hard. The MR30 test is a real landmark because of the blessings. Putting that behind a super difficult qualifier would feel fair, but if the L4 test was super hard and the reward was just the usual, there'd be complaints the other way.

So ideally we dream up some useful, practical unique rewards for each legendary test and combine that with a really hard and unique test - which would be satisfying - OR... we just have a relatively lame test with a relatively lame reward. As with most things, I think it comes down to dev time.

[0bsi]

I just fail to see why it's an issue really...... given that a great many of the MR tests are easy - especially if you use the right frame for the job.  Very few of them are actually a test of any skill and only a couple of them grant anything of value (MR30 obviously, and then also whatever earlier ones open the way for aquiring weapons or trading prime parts).

So there isn't really a correlation between how hard a MR test is to the benefit it gives (other than milestone ones that unlock stuff), most of them are just a simple test you pass and then get a shiny new number after your name.

IMHO having to have done the significant grinding, and aquiring of the vaulted weapons to actually get to the Legendary ranks, is itself a sizeable time/effort outlay to offset having your MR rank effectively gifted to you by way of a MR test that is easy.  But they also will start getting harder again once the levels go higher.

It will be interesting to see what the L5 test is, if the regular MR5 test is hacking Grineer and Corpus, for L5 will they use Narmer ones?  or just lower the time limit? - that could make it more of a challenge, particularly for some people.  

[CrownOfShadows]

The MR tests are meant to teach you the game. They are meant as a tutorial which naturally progresses from basic to advanced. Are you saying that intended progression is bad?

I mean, it sounds like you want the MR test to be scrapped past MR30, and just have the label applied automatically, just for sticking around.

Not a fan of that personally.

It's always better to earn something, even this late in the game, js. There's a world of difference between a marksmanship ribbon and a purple heart. It's better to own something that means something, token awards are just tokens, trophies are things of honor. Legendary tests should be trophies not tokens, that's the point.