Corrupted/Split Melee Range Mods

[CrownOfShadows]

Can we please get one or two new melee range mods? Specifically, ones that are split or corrupted.

By split I mean something like +30% attack speed +2 range, or +25% critical damage +2 range, or better yet something with a little scaling on it (because I would have to sacrifice a gladiator mod or an acolyte mod or something for it, so it's gonna have to pull some weight to justify itself).

I always want range - and some melee are absolutely brutal to play without it - but due to how many mods are required for melee to work there is never room - heck there's hardly even room for attack speed either and that takes precedence over range for me typically.

Because we're not getting more mod space, hybridizing seems like the only way to get this now - unless you'd also entertain some melee arcanes that incorporate range (but that will be a hard sell vs the benefits of the other arcanes we already have).

[Zakkhar]

But why? Is +5 meter radius range (2 mods) not enough for you? Have you tried grouping? Have you tried non range specific statuses? Have you tried Melee Influence?

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I always want range - and some melee are absolutely brutal to play without it

Like which ones? Please list them.

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

but due to how many mods are required for melee to work there is never room - heck there's hardly even room for attack speed either and that takes precedence over range for me typically.

There are numerous external attack speed sources: arcanes, squad/individual warframe abilities (subsumable), specters, weapon specific (buff/evolution). And they all have very high budget on the stat. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Speed

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Because we're not getting more mod space, hybridizing seems like the only way to get this now

What you are proposing is just bigger power creep.

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

By split I mean something like +30% attack speed +2 range, or +25% critical damage +2 range,

How about -30% aspeed +2 range?

2 range is more than normal Reach (1,5) and you want to add even more stat budget to it?

Edited March 4 by Zakkhar

[CrownOfShadows]

22 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

But why? Is +5 meter radius range (2 mods) not enough for you?

You missed the point. The point is i can't afford to use those mods due to lack of space.

23 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Have you tried grouping?

Sure, there are lots of subsumes that can pull enemies in. But it actually doesn't address the problem either, because not every frame wants those subsumes and yet they still use melee. I shouldn't have to use a subsume for something there's a mod for.

25 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Have you tried non range specific statuses?

WTF

25 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Have you tried Melee Influence?

This is actually your only solid point. This does help, unfortunately it only spreads status it doesn't increase the range of the raw damage. Melee Vortex is actually a better solution in this case, and does indeed solve some of this, unfortunately.... magnetic - major bummer & on 45% proc rotation, so still not quite the consistency I'm looking for even if I went magnetic.

26 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Like which ones? Please list them.

Omg dude, how about you use your imagination instead of sending me on an errand like that.

27 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

There are numerous external attack speed sources: arcanes, squad/individual warframe abilities (subsumable), specters, weapon specific (buff/evolution). And they all have very high budget on the stat. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Speed

I'm not asking for attack speed. I'm asking for range.

27 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

What you are proposing is just bigger power creep.

Hm, yes and no. Like it will be a little bit of power creep, but it really depends on how it's implemented. Like in the case of corrupted mods there would be a big drawback associated with it, and in the case of split mods both stats are reduced rather than having one big stat. So it actually pushing the envelope? Well it depends on the exact numbers.

27 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

How about -30% aspeed +2 range?

2 range is more than normal Reach (1,5) and you want to add even more stat budget to it?

Yeah, not a fan of regular reach, it just is not enough to be meaningful, but chill man it was just an example anyway. I mean if they want to have 1 or 1.5 range + another stat, fine, I'll take it, it's better than nothing, but if the other stat isn't really good to compensate for that shortcoming then I'd just be better off using Primed Reach instead and so that mod would be doa. It kinda needs to be balanced in context, both against the upper option as well as the lower one and the space constraints / mod competition.

[Zakkhar]

56 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

This is actually your only solid point. This does help, unfortunately it only spreads status it doesn't increase the range of the raw damage.

Yes it does, it spreads the status proc as well as the damage instance that caused it. With 100%+ status you are constantly hitting everything in 20 meter radius. Also there are statuses like Gas/Electric that scale even better the more enemies are around that will benefit from MI but can also work in separate setups (and they did before MI was introduced).

56 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Omg dude, how about you use your imagination instead of sending me on an errand like that.

Just one. Please. For the sake of my (and possibly other readers') poor imagination. It is your idea. We are not in your head.

While you are at it, can you also list all the mods you put on such weapon (clearly not glaive or gunblade), so that there is not enough slots for range?

56 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I'm not asking for attack speed. I'm asking for range.

You are asking for range, based on reasoning that your prioritise aspeed over it. I am pointing thwe flaw in your thinking - aspeed you can get elsewhere, range mainly only on weapon.

56 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Yeah, not a fan of regular reach, it just is not enough to be meaningful, but chill man it was just an example anyway.

Mine is just an example as well. Except mine was more hinged on reality.

Edited March 4 by Zakkhar

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Zakkhar said:

Yes it does, it spreads the status proc as well as the damage instance that caused it.

Well, this is not exactly true. It only spread elemental.

1 minute ago, Zakkhar said:

Just one. Please. For the sake of my (and possibly other readers') poor imagination. It is your idea. We are not in your head.

Literally any fist weapon or dagger just off the top of my head. Was that really so hard?

2 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

You are asking for range, based on reasoning that your prioritise aspeed over it. I am pointing thwe flaw in your thinking - aspeed you can get elsewhere, range mainly only on weapon.

Right but again this is assuming the warframe doesn't need that arcane slot for any number of other things, and my previous point about helminth applies to this logic on subsumes too.

4 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Mine is just an example as well. Except mine was more hinged on reality.

Is it though? -30% attack speed and +2 range just can't compete with using Primed Reach (or Primed Fury) instead, unless you have a melee that cares zero % about how fast it attacks, and I can't think of a single melee weapon in the game that cares like that. Nobody would ever use a mod like that, that was my point earlier. The space is ultra-competitive.

[Zakkhar]

34 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Literally any fist weapon or dagger just off the top of my head. Was that really so hard?

Any? I run:

Innodem 1,8m base, 3m from incarnon. That is enough with grouping. but you can get to 9,8 with both range mods, if you so please. I run multiple builds. Plus it has aerial projectile.

Ceramic Dagger - mostly as stat stick so I find the initial combo Evolutions useless so I get range instead.

Rakta Dark Dagger, melee influence, no range needed really.

Only Fists I run are occasional Baruuk (range works differently), Furax Wraith Incarnon (mini Baruuk), so cant tell you much over that I have not noticed any lacks in terms of range or attack speed... and Atlas, which technically doesnt use the weapon itself and range is based on his ability range.

34 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Right but again this is assuming the warframe doesn't need that arcane slot for any number of other things, and my previous point about helminth applies to this logic on subsumes too.

No, it is not assuming anything. It is a trade-off. You get one thing at the cost of another thing. You want to have both. It doesnt work like that. 

34 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Is it though? -30% attack speed and +2 range just can't compete with using Primed Reach (or Primed Fury) instead, unless you have a melee that cares zero % about how fast it attacks, and I can't think of a single melee weapon in the game that cares like that. Nobody would ever use a mod like that, that was my point earlier. The space is ultra-competitive.

Why would your imaginary mod had to compete with Primed mods? They are Primed exactly for the reason of being above any competition. If you want to compare with anything use other normal mods. Your topic title says corrupted, yet you havent given any corrupted example. It only has to compete with other normal mods. Reach is 1,5, getting 0,5 more at the cost of aspeed (which can be provided by outside source is not such a bad idea). Seems like many people go for this trade-off with Critical Delay 200%cc instead of 150% for the cost of negative 20 aspeed (they are gettinng aspeed from other sources).

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Corrupted_Mods

Edited March 4 by Zakkhar

[CrownOfShadows]

🙄

[xXDragonGodXx]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Can we please get one or two new melee range mods? Specifically, ones that are split or corrupted.

By split I mean something like +30% attack speed +2 range, or +25% critical damage +2 range, or better yet something with a little scaling on it (because I would have to sacrifice a gladiator mod or an acolyte mod or something for it, so it's gonna have to pull some weight to justify itself).

I always want range - and some melee are absolutely brutal to play without it - but due to how many mods are required for melee to work there is never room - heck there's hardly even room for attack speed either and that takes precedence over range for me typically.

Because we're not getting more mod space, hybridizing seems like the only way to get this now - unless you'd also entertain some melee arcanes that incorporate range (but that will be a hard sell vs the benefits of the other arcanes we already have).

Ok, so after reading this post of yours and some of your comments it's clear that you don't understand that there will always be some sacrifice in building for anything in this game. Sometimes we can deal with those sacrifices by including a riven, or just amplifying what the weapons are already good at with it. But the bottom line is that more range mods would not fix this issue. You're just going to have more mods to choose from and the same amount of space on your build to choose from. And if you're talking about capacity, that's fixed using forma. I do agree that it would be cool to have some more corrupted mods for melee that could give possibility for more complex building strategies, but again, it would not help with your problem at all. If you feel like you need more range, then use a shooting weapon instead or get closer to the enemy... That's all there is to it.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, xXDragonGodXx said:

You're just going to have more mods to choose from and the same amount of space on your build to choose from.

You seem to have missed the root of the solution. Hybridizing stats allows you to build for two things at once. To have range and attack speed for example, you need two mods. With a hybrid mod, you only need one.

[xXDragonGodXx]

1 minute ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You seem to have missed the root of the solution. Hybridizing stats allows you to build for two things at once. To have range and attack speed for example, you need two mods. With a hybrid mod, you only need one.

... That's why I said:

7 minutes ago, xXDragonGodXx said:

Sometimes we can deal with those sacrifices by including a riven,

You can do that by using a riven with attack speed and range. That's already a possibility. So my point still stands... while having more "Corrupt" mods would be cool, it ultimately doesn't matter for your original issue of space on your builds. Cause they will not design anything in such a way to let you be able to make a "Perfect" build without sacrificing something, or with the use of a riven. And even with a riven, you can run into the issue that the numbers on a given riven can be dropped due to high usage of a particular weapon, given time.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, xXDragonGodXx said:

... That's why I said:

You can do that by using a riven with attack speed and range. That's already a possibility. So my point still stands... while having more "Corrupt" mods would be cool, it ultimately doesn't matter for your original issue of space on your builds. Cause they will not design anything in such a way to let you be able to make a "Perfect" build without sacrificing something, or with the use of a riven. And even with a riven, you can run into the issue that the numbers on a given riven can be dropped due to high usage of a particular weapon, given time.

Rivens are not a reliable solution to this problem.

[xXDragonGodXx]

Just now, CrownOfShadows said:

Rivens are not a reliable solution to this problem.

Neither are introducing more mods, as the new mods would need to still fit within the current modding ecosystem. So rivens are going to be your best bet until some kind of possible external source of Range is given to us.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, xXDragonGodXx said:

Neither are introducing more mods, as the new mods would need to still fit within the current modding ecosystem. So rivens are going to be your best bet until some kind of possible external source of Range is given to us.

Why would new hybrid mods not work?

[Zakkhar]

4 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Why would new hybrid mods not work?

They would unnecesarily complicate already complex modding. Also if you are not content with the options we have (9,8m radius 0,9FT weapons,  20m radius MI), chances are you will not be content with anything new. Not for long at least. The flaw seems to be in you, not the mods available.

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Zakkhar said:

They would unnecesarily complicate already complex modding. Also if you are not content with the options we have (9,8m radius 0,9FT weapons,  20m radius MI), chances are you will not be content with anything new. Not for long at least. The flaw seems to be in you, not the mods available.

Oh no complications! The horror! We've never seen anything so mind-numbingly complicated as a hybrid mod before, it is going to melt our poor little brains.

[xXDragonGodXx]

25 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Why would new hybrid mods not work?

Here are the mods for range we currently have:

Spoiler

And given that overall you have a basic increase of 1.5 - 3 meters, a "hybrid" mod would need to be in on the lower end of that so lets say a hybrid is then either 1 meter or 1.25 meter as to not make using the mod to overpowered compared to specialising.

Then let's take a look at some of the speed mods:

Spoiler

Disregarding spoiled strike, you are able to get anywhere between a 30% - 70% increase in attack speed per mod. But since speed usually has been somewhat higher increase than its base mod on "hybrid" mods let's say this then is at a 35% - 40% attack speed.

Then given the fact that this is a significant enough increase in both speed and range, it would most likely be either a 9 or 11+ drain. And if this was a set mod, you would also lack in any significant increase in any of these two if they were part of the set buff if you didn't use all of them.

all in all, this would not make any of your builds any better, cause you are just taking away potentially higher numbers on either one for the satisfaction of increasing both. This is sacrificing higher values, for a more balanced build. And as we all know, that works poorly on almost all of our weapons. And if it is to good, and was used by a majority of players, it would most likely be re-balanced to fit with the Developers Vision of the Modding system and gameplay.

 

You also have to realise that this is just a specular scenario and does not reflect their own processes when making new mods or additions. so I have most likely been generous with the numbers.

Edited March 4 by xXDragonGodXx

[MarakViri]

Okay, first off;

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Can we please get one or two new melee range mods? Specifically, ones that are split or corrupted.

By split I mean something like +30% attack speed +2 range, or +25% critical damage +2 range, or better yet something with a little scaling on it (because I would have to sacrifice a gladiator mod or an acolyte mod or something for it, so it's gonna have to pull some weight to justify itself).

Yes. You do have to sacrifice something to get something else. That's how Limited Upgrade Capacity works.

As far as the example goes for your "Split" mod (also referred to as a Dual Stat Mod), the values of them would need to be tweaked, so as to be lower than base mods (Reach, Fury, and True Steel, in your example), so as to not make them better than running the Pure Stat option.

Running them as Corrupted would give you the inverse option, including making it better than the Primed Variant, potentially. However, I would personally suggest instead to have this introduced as a new Mod Set. But, not just a regular mod set, but something akin to an Umbral Set (wherein the base stats applied by the mod are increased by the number of Set mods equipped, as well as the Set Bonus itself).

Using this mechanic, you could have it work better with the different weapon types. For the sake of simplicity, let's call this the "Hybrid" set, and provide the Set Bonus of Universal Faction Damage (as an example) of 10% per mod, capping at 3 Mods. Probably make it something less overpowering, but you get the gist.

You could have the mod Hybrid Extension, equippable on Dagger and Sparring weapons, that increase Attack Range by (1.5/2.5/4.0), depending on the number of Hybrid mods equipped. It could even be more like an Umbral Version, and be Hybrid Reach, and be mutually exclusive with the Reach and Primed Reach mods to prevent the range from increasing too far.

They already implemented both parts of this (Umbral Mods and the Archon Set Mods (like Boreal's Contempt)), so it is technically already coded too.

 

[Zakkhar]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

Oh no complications! The horror! We've never seen anything so mind-numbingly complicated as a hybrid mod before, it is going to melt our poor little brains.

Looking at your posts you seem to have troubles with understanding and building setups within the current system with existsting mods/arcanes. Adding more options will just make the problem bigger, not solve it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Okay, ignoring this entire debate, I'm going to point out 'no'.

Why not? Because DE rebalanced Melee Range with the last Melee update. They even said on the DevStream where they went over the changes that they debated making Spring Loaded Blade not stack with Reach/Primed Reach.

Range is incredibly strong on melee, especially for combo building. That's why DE upped the base range of every weapon, measured it in actual units, and then had the Range mods add flat +X range, instead of percentages. So they could make sure they then balanced any melee weapon's base range around its potential range.

They aren't going to add any more Melee Range mods unless they're either conditional, or don't stack with the current ones. Or both.

[CrownOfShadows]

4 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Okay, ignoring this entire debate, I'm going to point out 'no'.

Why not? Because DE rebalanced Melee Range with the last Melee update. They even said on the DevStream where they went over the changes that they debated making Spring Loaded Blade not stack with Reach/Primed Reach.

Range is incredibly strong on melee, especially for combo building. That's why DE upped the base range of every weapon, measured it in actual units, and then had the Range mods add flat +X range, instead of percentages. So they could make sure they then balanced any melee weapon's base range around its potential range.

They aren't going to add any more Melee Range mods unless they're either conditional, or don't stack with the current ones. Or both.

interesting, missed that dev stream. I understand they're a little paranoid about range because of the history of melee.

I could care less if they are mutually exclusive honestly, I'm not interested in stacking them, i just need a way to include some range in my builds.

[CrownOfShadows]

6 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Okay, first off;

Yes. You do have to sacrifice something to get something else. That's how Limited Upgrade Capacity works.

As far as the example goes for your "Split" mod (also referred to as a Dual Stat Mod), the values of them would need to be tweaked, so as to be lower than base mods (Reach, Fury, and True Steel, in your example), so as to not make them better than running the Pure Stat option.

Running them as Corrupted would give you the inverse option, including making it better than the Primed Variant, potentially. However, I would personally suggest instead to have this introduced as a new Mod Set. But, not just a regular mod set, but something akin to an Umbral Set (wherein the base stats applied by the mod are increased by the number of Set mods equipped, as well as the Set Bonus itself).

Using this mechanic, you could have it work better with the different weapon types. For the sake of simplicity, let's call this the "Hybrid" set, and provide the Set Bonus of Universal Faction Damage (as an example) of 10% per mod, capping at 3 Mods. Probably make it something less overpowering, but you get the gist.

You could have the mod Hybrid Extension, equippable on Dagger and Sparring weapons, that increase Attack Range by (1.5/2.5/4.0), depending on the number of Hybrid mods equipped. It could even be more like an Umbral Version, and be Hybrid Reach, and be mutually exclusive with the Reach and Primed Reach mods to prevent the range from increasing too far.

They already implemented both parts of this (Umbral Mods and the Archon Set Mods (like Boreal's Contempt)), so it is technically already coded too.

 

Yeah okay this is a solid solution too, but only if the set is enticing enough to displace some of the current "mandatory" mods.

The problem with getting range back into melee is that the competition is so high that there's almost never a case to justify it. You need so many scaling mods on melee (CO, BloodRush, WeepingWounds, GladiatorMight) plus viral or corrosive which is 2 elemental mods (because working Primed Fever Strike in usually desirable), which just leaves 2 slots left over, and you have to decide now: do you want a) Crit Chance (TrueSteel, SacrificialSteel) or b) Damage (PressurePoint) or c) Attack Speed or d) Range... and range almost always ends up being the loser out of those.

So a set would have to be good enough to displace some of those latter options (or maybe gladiator); like that is some STIFF competition to shoulder through.

[Raikh]

Would definitely love to see some more Range Mod options for Melee. Its a really barren landscape.

Sure, Primed Reach does its job very well and often its plenty. But it can also be quite fun and interesting to have even more Range. Some Incarnons really highlight this, Bo Incarnon in particular.

Spring-Loaded Blade does exist but its incredibly difficult to justify slotting it on top of Primed Reach as Melee has a good number of incredibly loaded Mods that take absolute priority.

Currently, if the Disposition is high enough for a given weapon, I'm letting Rivens take that job, but unlike more directly throughput oriented Stats if the Disposition suddenly crashes having Range on a Riven feels much worse than just losing some Melee Damage or Crit Damage. Its a Stat that feels much more sensitive to the amount you're getting than generic damage stats.

Having Corrupted, Nightmare or even Set Mods with Range would be sweet. A Set like Gladiator where instead of getting a Mini Blood Rush per piece you get +1 Range would sound absolutely amazing to me. Or maybe some more extreme Corrupted Mod that offers even more Range than Primed Reach but with an according downside to it. Corrupted Mods make for some pretty interesting options on Warframes, no reason that couldn't extend to weapons aswell, especially with Stats like Range that are valuable but no direct "number go bigger" thing.