Dante Unbound - Dev Workshop: General Quality of Life

[MarakViri]

On 2024-03-26 at 1:11 AM, spider_enigma said:

thats assuming that the rhino uses faction mods instead of not using them and putting more damage in the first place

that math doesn't work

No, the math works. It just makes assumptions that are false in most situations, as the general player base (myself included) typically doesn't use Faction Mods, whether that be due to the annoyance of cycling them for different factions, a lack of necessity (as the builds without them are still capable of outputting sufficient damage), or just a lack of space on the build (and Faction Damage being regarded as more of a "flex" option than a necessary one). Of the weapons I have actually used recently, I think only three or four of them currently use Faction Mods. I also don't use Roar as a subsumed ability (and therefore don't get the giant damage boost), and currently only have Eclipse on two or three frames (barring outdated builds that I don't use), so most of my gameplay is done without the oppressive presence of the damage boost. I am running Nourish on a few more frames, but that is honestly more for the Energy Multiplier.

But, as far as the math and intention of the ability change goes, DE want Roar to be the better damage buff overall. Given the reliance it has on Ability Strength, I would say that having Eclipse provide better DoT DPS at lower Strength values, but being quickly outscaled, would be a significantly better implementation than the listed values.

Under the assumption of the current strength values, a weapon that deals 1000 Damage, and both with and without a Primed Faction Mod (+55%), then you get the following (which is basically just slightly expanded math);

• (30%) Eclipse = (1000 * 1.55 * 1.3) = 2,015                      |  = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300
  • DoT == (2,015 * 1.55 * 0.35) = 1,093.1375            |  == (1,300 * 0.35) = 455
• (30%) Roar == (1000 * 1.85) = 1,850                               |  = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300
  • DoT == (1,850 * 1.85 * 0.35) = 1,197.875             |  == (1300 * 1.3 * 0.35) = 591.5

Basically, Roar has less initial damage when modded for Faction damage, and equal when it isn't, but a higher DoT DPS in both forms. In this iteration, Eclipse will never perform better than Roar when not modded for Faction damage, and will only ever outperform Roar in flat DPS (excluding DoT) even with Faction Mods (and will never outperform it regarding DoT. Now, alter the base value of Eclipse from 30% to 45% (which is my new "ideal" as 50% was realistically too high (I screwed up my math a bit)), and you instead get the following;

• (45%) Eclipse = (1000 * 1.55 * 1.45) = 2,247.5              | = (1000 * 1.45) = 1,450  
  • DoT == (2247.5 * 1.55 * 0.35) = 1,219.26875      |  == (1,450 * 0.35) = 507.5
• (30%) Roar == (1000 * 1.85) = 1,850                            |  = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300
  • DoT == (1,850 * 1.85 * 0.35) = 1,197.875             |  == (1300 * 1.3 * 0.35) = 591.5

Eclipse now has better initial Damage and DoT than Roar (at base strength) when modded for Faction Damage, but still loses out in DoT on builds without Faction Damage (though the initial hit will now always be higher). This allows Eclipse to be consistently better at initial damage, both with and without Faction Mods, but keeping Roar as the better form of DoT damage due to its higher quadratic scaling. It also allows Eclipse to be similarly viable in regards to DoT Damage when your weapon is modded for Faction Damage, up until around the 175% mark, where Roar begins to outpace it. Summarily, Roar will always result in more DoT damage if the weapon is not modded for faction damage, whereas Eclipse will always result in more raw DPS regardless.

This functionally makes Eclipse more viable for damage at lower Ability Strength values than Roar, but keeps Roar as the superior option for high Strength builds (or when running without faction mods) for DoT builds. Additionally, Eclipse will work better (and not just as an equivalent) when it comes to dealing raw damage, and when facing entities that are not members of a moddable target faction.

Note; The reason that I have lowered my suggested value from 50% to 45% is that 50% makes Eclipse better at Faction-Modded DPS than Roar even at 300% Ability Strength (though only slightly). Given that Roar is meant to be a better damage boosting ability, I decided to lower it. The reduction of only 5% lowers that exchange of power scaling from 300% Power Strength to only 175% Power Strength. Basically, with this value, under the assumption of using Faction Mods, you would use Eclipse on builds of less than 175% Strength, and Roar on builds with more than 175% Power Strength, if DoT damage is your priority.

Edited March 27 by MarakViri
Corrections

[AleteiaHogryff]

On 2024-03-13 at 3:18 PM, _GoodLuck_ said:

Thanks for nerf. I'd additionally reduce duration in half to make it complete trash just like 90% of helminth abilities.

90%? hahahaahaha u are so funny
I really liked these nerfs, Warframe players are becoming pathetic Destiny 2 players, where they live looking for "meta" and can't use their brains to build simple builds, saying that 90% of the helminth's abilities are "trash" is ridiculous.

[MarakViri]

On 2024-03-26 at 11:55 AM, .N33. said:

90%? hahahaahaha u are so funny
I really liked these nerfs, Warframe players are becoming pathetic Destiny 2 players, where they live looking for "meta" and can't use their brains to build simple builds, saying that 90% of the helminth's abilities are "trash" is ridiculous.

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, technically, technically, there are only 13 Helminth abilities (Empower, Infested Mobility, Master's Summons, Rebuild Shields, Perspicacity, Energized Munitions, Marked For Death, Expedite Suffering, Parasitic Armor, Hideous Resistance, Voracious Metastasis, Sickening Pulse, and Golden Instinct). Of course, that's a technicality, as the general overarching term typically includes the subsumable abilities as well. More accurate of a comment would be to say that 90% of the abilities are off-meta or non-competitive to the meta.

That said, my mind is now on the Helminth abilities, and how they could (potentially) be pushed to be more viable options, as well as the inclusion of augment mods for one of them. Keep in mind that the numbers I am using are indicative of the effect I am imagining, not absolute (obviously).

Spoiler

• Empower is a fairly decent ability in a sense, giving a flat +50% Ability Strength to the next ability you cast, and having no scaling of any sort allows it to be utilised on a frame regardless of it's Ability Distribution. However, a 50% increase to Ability Strength is rarely worth the ability slot as opposed to the mod or even arcane slot. Of course, it can be useful for meme and min-max functionality, but I still feel that it is lacking.
  • Change: Empower now becomes a three-point cycle ability, allowing you to cycle through three different methods of empowerment (though only one can be active at a time, with recasts while active replacing the previous selection), with the three choices being as follows;
    • (20/30/40/50)% Ability Strength increase [current]
    • (10/15/20/25)% Ability Range increase
    • (10/15/20/25)% Ability Duration increase
  • This allows it to be more universally viable and allow for certain synergies to be utilised as well as giving targeted buffs to select abilities, as this is rarely used to empower an entire kit, and instead often focused to improve a singular ability.

 

• Infested Mobility is a useful mobility enhancement tool that, sadly, is rarely worth the ability slot in comparison to other abilities, despite having some great base stats. This is primarily because (in addition to mobility rarely needing an actual increase), the Subsume Ability Molt provides a similar Sprint Speed increase (50% instead of 60%) even if for a shorter period (5 seconds instead of 8), but compensates by providing aggro redirection for at least 3 seconds, a small Toxin explosion, and a Status Cleanse. True, this also provides a Parkour Velocity increase, but that does not compensate as much in most cases.
  • Change: Infested Mobility gains increased duration (moving from 5/6/7/8 to 6/8/10/12 seconds) or reducing the energy cost to 25, provides immunity to Stagger, Knockback and Knockdown, and increases the Walk Speed by (10/15/20/25)%.
  • These changes provide synergies with frames locked into Walking Speed (such as Ivara, Mesa, and Nyx), while still offering a fairly useful additional effect in the Knockdown immunity (which is often countered through [Primed Sure Footed], allowing you to use another Exilus mod). Additionally, the Duration increase makes it a more comfortable ability, going from, at base, 375 Energy per minute to only 250. Should it be the reduced energy cost, it would instead go from 375 to 188, but would require more interaction.

 

• Master's Summons is arguably the worst Helminth ability, especially since the Companion Rework that made all companions functionally immortal. While this can see some use, it simply does not do enough to warrant the ability slot in almost any situation (though meme builds or altered Companion Nuke builds can be slightly synergetic).
  • Change: Master's Summon now provides a (50/75/100/125)% damage buff to the companion for (4/6/8/10) seconds after cast, scaling with Strength and Duration. Additionally, it will remove all of the companions cooldowns.
  • This turns it into a time-for-energy exchange into a legitimately viable companion assistance ability. An additional critical chance increase to make it more synergetic with [Tenacious Bond] could be added as well, but that seems a little much when added to the proposed changes, and woefully insufficient when used without them, unless it was a flat addition.

 

• Rebuild Shields is an interesting ability that I feel was executed poorly, as the ability to restore your shields is very useful, especially when paired with Shield Gating, though it's lack of any form of scaling can be somewhat problematic.
  • Change: Rebuild Shields now has a Duration of (6/8/11/15) seconds. Upon cast, your Shield Recharge will be increased by (5/10/15/20)%, scaling with Strength. If your shields are fully depleted while the ability is active, your shields will be fully restored and the ability will end and go on cooldown. If your shields do not deplete during this period, the ability will refund 50% of the initial cost of the ability and will receive a 50% reduced cooldown.
  • This change makes it a viable build for the frame that cares the most about maintaining "full" shields; Hildryn, without creating a large problem for the frames that currently use the ability (I think).

 

• Perspicacity is another interesting ability that is almost never used, despite being useful in Sortie and Archon Hunt missions (and basically anywhere you can't use Ciphers). I believe that this is for 2 primary reasons. The first is the energy-cost to reward ratio is too low, as 25 energy simply for a successful hack seems excessive if you are capable of performing the hack yourself. The second is that it is only useful in a select few mission types in general, as hacking is excluded from every current Endless mission type, and most of the non-endless missions as well (unless there is a lockdown).
  • Change: Perspicacity now has a Duration of (2/4/6/8) seconds, scaling with Duration. While active, interacting with a hackable object will instantly complete the hack, and provides a mission long 5% dodge chance, stacking up to 25%. While active, gain (20/25/30/35)% Evasion/Dodge chance. Neither of these scale with strength. Dying will reset the accumulated dodge chance, but being map-reset or being downed will not.
  • This change turns it into a survivability tool, allowing it to be used in any kind of content, while providing a reason to use it specifically in mission types where there are terminals (or enemies) to hack.

 

• Energized Munitions is probably the most viable of the helminth abilities (and actually sees use quite frequently on Gauss and Wisp), and likely doesn't need to be changed. That said, I find the Duration a little too low, personally, and feel like it should also be improved to keep up with the changes to the other abilities.
  • Change: Duration is increased (from 3/3.5/4/5 to 3/4/6/9 seconds), and provides a (20/30/40/50)% reload speed increase, scaling with Strength.
  • These are just QoL tweaks, and allow it to work better when used with bows specifically (to minimise the reload delay), though improving for almost all weapon types.

 

• Marked For Death was the most oppressive of the helminth abilities upon their introduction, and was swiftly hit with the nerf-hammer. And rightly so, honestly, as it was kind of ridiculous. Of course, the hit from the hammer was a little too hard, and it's been buffed since, but it still falls short.
  • Change: The explosion no longer requires line of sight, and is increased from (7/8/9/10 meters to 9/11/13/15 meters).
  • This simple change removes the main flaw of the ability (why was line of sight required anyway?) which should make it more viable.

 

• Expedite Suffering is another good DPS ability, working fairly well when paired with DoT priming. In fact, this can be so good that I am conflicted as to whether or not it needs an improvement, but I've elected to do so by giving it Tap-Cast functionality with different executions.
  • Change: Tap-Cast will function as it does now, but the damage multiplier will be increased to 2x. Hold-Cast will maintain the 1x multiplier, but will target all enemies within a (4/6/8/10) meter radius of the caster (instead of a frontal cone).
  • This alteration is, honestly, more because I had no idea what to actually change about the ability, as I haven't used it enough to actually know where it falls short and how to balance it. That said, this feels fairly powerful. Perhaps adding the inclusion of Heat, Gas, and/or Electricity status effects?

 

• Parasitic Armor can be a fun one, allowing many frames with otherwise lacking survivability to become capable of health-tanking at lower levels (including Steel Path if played correctly), though it comes at the cost of your Shield Gating capability.
  • Change: Parasitic Armor now consumes Overshield at the rate of (75/100/125/150%) Overshield to Armor conversion. Alternative methods of Shield Regeneration ([Brief Respite], Augur Set Bonus, Grenade Fan, etc) will now provide up to 1200 Overguard instead.
  • This change makes it a viable sacrifice on any frame (bar Hildryn probably), as it allows the generation of Overguard which can, in part, negate the need for Shield Gating, though it is significantly worse in higher levels due to having only a 0.5 second iFrame period.

 

• Hideous Resistance is interesting, but vastly overshadowed by the subsumable ability Spellbind, making it a very rare choice on any frame. Therefore, I will be making it a little more competitive.
  • Change: There is now a 2 second delay between uses (functionally providing 2 seconds of Status Immunity per charge) allowing 20 seconds of status immunity at base. Additionally, the player is invulnerable (and immune to status) while casting the ability. Finally, Toxin damage will not bypass your shields while you have a charge.
  • These changes make it more viable, as they are the two greatest flaws in the ability (as I've been killed by Toxin status gained while casting the ability). It also provides a great feature in the negation of Toxin-Shield bypassing, making it a legitimate option against the Infested Faction for this feature alone.

 

• Voracious Metastasis is a fantastic support ability, allowing you to heal yourself and provide energy to teammates. Therefore, this ability will not be getting any real changes, but instead will be getting an augment.
  • Change: Will now trigger [Archon Intensify].
  • Augment: Metastatic Voracity : Hold-Cast to consume 50% of your current Health and regain up to 50% of your energy. Allies within affinity radius will be healed by half of your sacrificed health over (16/14/12/10) seconds.
  • The change is mostly a little nit-pick, honestly. The augment, however, allows you to use this to both heal and restore energy, to yourself and teammates, in a functionally endless loop. This obviously needs some tweaking in regards to the numbers, but the general idea is to invert the functionality of the ability without losing the ability to use it normally.

 

• Sickening Pulse can be fun to play around with, and can be a good way to get maximum status' of Viral or Corrosive, but I have no idea how to altar the ability in a way that would actively increase it's viability without giving it the ability to affect the primary damage status' (Bleed, Toxin, and Heat). Sadly, I will be skipping this ability, but if anyone has any ideas let me know.

 

• Golden Instinct is used primarily for finding Rare Containers and Ayatan Sculptures these days, though it can be used from finding Syndicate Medallions as well. Honestly, the only thing I would change would be altering the visuals of the ability (possibly), or reducing the cooldown slightly (maybe by 5 seconds at most), as this ability is, by design, very niche and has functionally no usability in endless content (to my knowledge)

But, back to the initial point I am quoting, the insult was uncalled for. The game has a meta. Every game with even half this much content and player controlled variability will. People make simple builds. Granted, a lot of people just copy-paste builds they see on YouTube, but there are a lot of people that experiment, or play by arbitrary self-enforced rules to make the game meet their standard of fun (or, like Triburos' Stug Challenge, to induce self-psychosis). The fact that certain things are just straight up better is fact. My [Stug] will never outcompete with a [Torid] (Incarnon), no matter how many Forma I throw at it. That's just how it is.

The abilities are the same. Thermal Sunder will always perform better as a Lith-Nuke than Fire Blast on Titania because it's factually better. It has higher damage, and lower energy cost. It doesn't matter that it only has half the range, or that the latter can armor strip, because the prior kills everything. Leaves a field of death too.

Now, calling 90% of the abilities "trash" is just incorrect. But, when you are targeting the meta, and judging them solely through that lens? Then I'd say 75% of them are functionally non-viable. Even on the nerfs this is about (Eclipse and Nourish), I can only really agree that the second was a fair nerf (as is evident by my other posts), as Eclipse does become practically non-viable as a damage enhancer with their proposed numbers, as Roar vastly outperforms it, even with the energy cost difference, as, unless you mod the correct faction onto your weapons every mission, Roar is a better choice because of the meta. If you are using either of those abilities, of course.

Edited March 27 by MarakViri
Spelling Corrections

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-03-13 at 4:24 PM, TriadHero117 said:

You're right about nourish too, but it's also something that DE themselves has said when it comes to their expectations for this nerf. It's not gonna dethrone Nourish, just rein it in from "I feel bad for not using it" to "It's strong, and does a lot, but it's not silly to consider alternatives" 

Ember asks "What alternatives?" (I've tried running Ember without it, and her kit is too flawed to work without the energy boost.) 

Seriously. At this point I would KILL for a "Helminth Disposition" system where less popular frames don't get the nerfed Helminth abilities. 

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-03-17 at 6:25 PM, GrumpyPants said:

My point was just that making these kinds of comparisons isn't helpful and detracts from otherwise valid arguments. These kinds of comparisons are what leads to suggestions like 100% multiplier at base, which is obviously far too much.

I think your logic is so amazingly flawed. 

#1 Rhino Roar effects abilites and weapon damage. (This is already reason enough to run roar over eclipse on certain frames.
#2 Eclipse only buffs the caster, not the party. Roar buffs the entire team, including companions. 
#3 Roar lasts longer, scales better, and gets further increased on certain interactions. (Roar + Faction Mods + Molecular Prime for example) 

So, explain to me why anyone would use eclipse over roar. Weaker, doesn't apply to teammates, shorter, doesn't effect ability damage. 

Giving it 100% multiplier at base so your weapon damage is comparable to the damage boost of both weapon and abilities combined is about the only real way eclipse would be considered. Its a solo only buff, it should giver stronger innate bonuses than a 25m range team wide buff. 

Might as well make Eclipse defensive only. Its damage reduction is the only thing going for it, when it is... eclipsed by roar in every regard. 

[VENDOMINUS]

I'm surprised noone mentioned the obvious solution to the eclipse problem. Have it be at 100% damage buff and 90% DR for helmith, but put it's bas for DR at 40% and increase it's cost to 75 to match roar or even 100 energy (For Helmith). Considering it's new QoL This seems like a more of a compromise than outright deleting the ability from everyone's frames (Yes I know that energy cost is largely irrelevant for many builds, but to me it seems like a better tradeoff).

 

I'm pretty sure making QoL doesn't mean: "making something that's bad some of the time, be bad all of the time".

Edited March 26 by VENDOMINUS

[MarakViri]

14 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

So, explain to me why anyone would use eclipse over roar. Weaker, doesn't apply to teammates, shorter, doesn't effect ability damage. 

Giving it 100% multiplier at base so your weapon damage is comparable to the damage boost of both weapon and abilities combined is about the only real way eclipse would be considered. Its a solo only buff, it should giver stronger innate bonuses than a 25m range team wide buff. 

Might as well make Eclipse defensive only. Its damage reduction is the only thing going for it, when it is... eclipsed by roar in every regard. 

9 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

I'm surprised noone mentioned the obvious solution to the eclipse problem. Have it be at 100% damage buff and 90% DR for helmith, but put it's bas for DR at 40% and increase it's cost to 75 to match roar or even 100 energy (For Helmith). Considering it's new QoL This seems like a more of a compromise than outright deleting the ability from everyone's frames (Yes I know that energy cost is largely irrelevant for many builds, but to me it seems like a better tradeoff).

 

I'm pretty sure making QoL doesn't mean: "making something that's bad some of the time, be bad all of the time".

 

... because this isn't the "obvious solution" maybe? 100% is obscenely better than 30% (like, exponentially). Let's do some quick math for you, where Eclipse provides Uniquely Multiplicative damage equal to Ability Strength (as you proposed), and compare it to Roar and it's 30% at base, both with and without the Primed Faction Mods, to see the damage difference (and DoT difference), assuming a base damage of let's say 1000 (for the easy math).

• At 100% Power Strength
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55* 2 = 3100
      • DoT : 3,100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75
    • Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850
      • DoT = 1850 * 1.85 * 0.34 == 1197.875
  • No Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 2 = 2000
      • DoT : 2000 * 0.35 == 700
    • Roar = 1000 * 1.3 = 1300
      • DoT : 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5
• At 500% Power Strength
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 6 = 9300
      • DoT : 9300 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 5045.25
    • Roar : 1000 * 3.05 = 3050
      • DoT : 3050 * 3.05 * 0.35 == 3255.875
  • No Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 6 = 6000
      • DoT : 6000 * 0.35 == 2100
    • Roar : 1000 * 1.5 = 1500
      • DoT = 1500 * 1.5 * 0.35 == 787.5
• At 1000% Power Strength
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55  * 11 = 17050 
      • DoT : 17050 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 9249.625
    • Roar : 1000 * 4.55 = 4550 
      • DoT : 4550 * 4.55 * 0.35 == 7245.875
  • No Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 11 = 11000
      • DoT : 11000 * 0.35 == 3850
    • Roar : 1000 * 3 = 3000
      • DoT : 3000 * 3 * 0.35 == 3150

Do you see the theme? There is no achievable level of Power Strength where Roar will deal more weapon damage than Eclipse, be it Raw Damage or DoT damage, even without a source of Faction Damage on the weapon, provided the builds are the same. While it would still allow you to deal Faction Damage through abilities (and thus still gain quadratic scaling for them), very few frames actually care about that. Additionally, [Total Eclipse] allows you to provide the buff from Eclipse to your teammates so long as they are within range. I do, however, agree that they should increase the DR cap to 90% and lower the initial value from 75% to compensate (and ideally let Mirage reach the cap of 95% still). Altering the energy cost makes no real difference, and, with the 100% scaling, this ability could instead cost 100% of your maximum energy, and it would still be the most energy efficient damage enhancement ability available in the helminth when weapon damage is concerned.

Roar gets applied to allies within 25 meters by default, and they maintain this regardless of how far they go after the cast until the duration expires. This, alongside the ability to increase ability damage, and ultimately being a better damage increase should be the benefits of running the ability. In order to achieve a similar thing, Eclipse needs it's augment mod (which will create a pale imitation of Roar's damage support for teammates), and has a shorter duration by default (compensated by the lower energy cost).

[VENDOMINUS]

I think you pointed the elephant in the room yourself. For Eclipse to be what roar is, it needs 2 mod slots. So that would be anywhere from 79% power strength difference all the way to 179%. Since a lot of builds stay under 170% ability strength by default and you take that 79% difference. That results in roar running at 170% strength while eclipse running on 91%, provided you want to use them for buffing your friends while retaining other core aspects of the frame you want to play. (Yes, I know that some frames can build 400% ability strength, but in that case the buff would be for the frame only, and would not have the same function.)

For solo there is no reason for eclipse not to be better. Having a high cost, prevents you from running with with no flow, archon shards for energy or similar costs, resulting in lower ability strength. Having a high cost prevents it from being spammed all the time, to have both effects as needed.

I'm pretty sure, the changes are already decided, and we'll see them today, but if people are not happy, what I'm suggesting has some merit for changes. It doesn't need to be 100% the same numbers.

 

Edited March 27 by VENDOMINUS

[MarakViri]

4 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

I think you pointed the elephant in the room yourself. For Eclipse to be what roar is, it needs 2 mod slots. So that would be anywhere from 79% power strength difference all the way to 179%. Since a lot of builds stay under 170% ability strength by default and you take that 79% difference. That results in roar running at 170% strength while eclipse running on 91%, provided you want to use them for buffing your friends while retaining other core aspects of the frame you want to play. (Yes, I know that some frames can build 400% ability strength, but in that case the buff would be for the frame only, and would not have the same function.)

"For Eclipse to be what Roar is" ... yeah, that's not how abilities work. Roar is a damage multiplier, and that's all it is. Granted, it's a team-wide damage multiplier, but still a damage multiplier. Additionally, the multiplier stacks additively with Faction Mods. Eclipse, on the other hand, is not additive to any source of damage (as far as I am aware), existing as a wholly unique multiplicative factor. This means that, for the same buff value, Eclipse will never result in less raw damage than Roar. However, this comes at the cost of it not being privy to the quadratic scaling when factoring Damage over Time (functionally leaving it as the worse option in the current Viral-Slash and Viral-Heat meta).

Now, you've mentioned that Eclipse requires additional mod slot to allow it to function as a team buff, which is true. Furthermore, "For Eclipse to be what Roar is, it needs 2 mod slots" is how you phrase this. Ignoring the fact that the two are, inherently not equal, I am not sure why you are saying this takes two mod slots. I will give you benefit of the doubt, and assume that you are referring to [Total Eclipse] on the Warframe, and a Primed Faction mod on the weapon in question, and work from that. In this regard, you are incorrect. With Faction mods or without them, with a base of 100%, Eclipse will outperform Roar, so long as they either both run with the faction mod, or neither run with the faction mod. Only when you use Roar with a faction mod will you do more DoT damage than using Eclipse without the faction mod (dealing a little over 100% additional DoT damage). So, really, the only mod-cost to "match" the two is the one slot for [Total Eclipse] to provide a damage increase to your teammates.

But, let's ignore that, and assume that there is the 79% difference in Power Strength between the two abilities, and run the math from that, using the same base as my previous math, where Eclipse provides a damage increase equal to Ability Strength;

• 100% Eclipse / 179% Roar
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 2 = 3100 
      • DoT : 3100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75
    • Roar : 1000 * 2.087 = 2087 
      • DoT : 2087 * 2.087 * 0.35 == 1524.44915
  • No Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 2 = 2000 
      • DoT : 2000 * 0.35 == 700
    • Roar : 1000 * 1.537 = 1537
      • DoT : 1537 * 1.537 * 0.35 == 826.82915
• 500% Eclipse / 579% Roar
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 6 = 9300 
      • DoT : 9300 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 5045.25
    • Roar : 1000 * 3.287 = 3287
      • DoT :  3287 * 3.287 * 0.35 == 3781.52915
  • No Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 6 = 6000 
      • DoT : 6000 * 0.35 == 2100
    • Roar : 1000 * 2.737 = 2737
      • DoT : 2737 * 2.737 * 0.35 == 2621.90915

This version of the math has Roar eventually overtake Eclipse in DoT Damage when no weapons are modded for faction damage, but has Eclipse vastly overperform when they are. However, your argument was that Eclipse takes two mod slots to "compete" with Roar. So, we will use the Faction Modded damage of Eclipse, and the non-faction modded damage from Roar.

From that we get a damage discrepancy in favour of Eclipse. At (100%/179%), Eclipse deals 101.69% more raw damage than Roar, and 103.39% more DoT damage. At (500%/579%), it deals 239.78% more raw damage, and 92.42% more DoT damage. Functionally, there is no achievable build in which Roar, when paired with a weapon lacking faction mods, will deal more raw damage or DoT damage than Eclipse paired with faction mods. Even if you take them as both being modded for faction damage, the same trend continues. It is only when neither weapon is modded for faction damage that Roar will deal more DoT damage than Eclipse. 

That said, please tell me what you meant by 2 mods, because this cannot be it.

4 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

For solo there is no reason for eclipse not to be better. Having a high cost, prevents you from running with with no flow, archon shards for energy or similar costs, resulting in lower ability strength. Having a high cost prevents it from being spammed all the time, to have both effects as needed.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this. You're saying that you think that Eclipse should always be better than Roar in solo (assuming identical builds) from what I am reading, if I am reading it correctly. But, if that is the case, then there would be functionally no reason to ever subsume Roar, except for frames who's main method of DPS is ability based. In this situation, as I've stated, you could have Eclipse drain your entire energy bar, and it would still be a better choice than Roar, so making it have a higher cost would not prevent it from being spammed (if there was a reason to spam it, which there isn't). Also, I'm guessing that by "Have both effects as needed", you are referring to the Solar Eclipse and Lunar Eclipse buffs? It is my understanding that you could only have one active at a time, so I'm guessing this means cycling between the effect that is more beneficial at any given time. However, with the damage scaling as you proposed it, you would only use Solar Eclipse, as there's no damage to reduce if everything is dead, which they would be.

4 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

I'm pretty sure, the changes are already decided, and we'll see them today, but if people are not happy, what I'm suggesting has some merit for changes. It doesn't need to be 100% the same numbers

Yeah, at this point there's no real chance of it being changed for the next update. My argument to you is that 100% is far too high of a base (honestly, I didn't realise how strong it was until I got into all the math myself), but even at 50%, it is conditionally stronger in damage that Roar all the way up to 300% strength. At 45%, it's conditionally weaker by 175%. That is how ludicrous the ability scaling can be.

Edited March 27 by MarakViri

[JaMoricharXi]

2024/3/14 AM1点57分 , [DE]Megan 说:

it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar.

Man,what can i say？You guys really dont play ur game?

[HeavyFarms]

3 hours ago, MarakViri said:

"For Eclipse to be what Roar is" ... yeah, that's not how abilities work. 

Then why is there an augment mod, that takes up an entire modslot to turn eclipse into roar. (10m less range.)

First, let's correct your math. Cause you aren't using the patch notes. 

Helminth Diminished Effectiveness Change: 

Eclipse has been one of the most popular Helminth abilities, so by fixing its unreliability related to light sources and making its buffs guaranteed, a rebalance was in order to compensate. This change does not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from Helminth.

• Solar Eclipse has a base 30% increased Weapon Damage.

  • This was previously 150%, it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar.

3 hours ago, MarakViri said:

• 100% Eclipse / 179% Roar
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 2 = 3100 
      • DoT : 3100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75
    • Roar : 1000 * 2.087 = 2087 
      • DoT : 2087 * 2.087 * 0.35 == 1524.44915

To fix this for you. 

• Base Abilities at 100% Power Strength: 30% Eclipse / 30% Roar (This is what they are in Helminth. The one people are complaining about)
  • Faction Mod
    • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.3 = 2015 
      • DoT : 2015 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1093.75
    • Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 
      • DoT : 1850* 1.85* 0.35 == 1197.875

Eclipse is about a 9% increase over Roar's initial damage. Too bad Roar has a 9.5% lead on DoT. 
At 200% power strength, Eclipse does about 15% more damage on hit, While Roar does about 20% more DoT damage. (Faction)

• No Faction Mod
  • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.3 = 1300 
    • DoT : 1300 * 0.35 == 455
  • Roar : 1000 * 1.3 = 1300
    • DoT : 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5

Now. If it wasn't clear to you before. Eclipse is losing 80% of its power. It now has the same 30% value that Roar has. The difference? Roar went from 50% to 30%. Eclipse went from 150% to 30%. Oh, but Roar has the added benefit of effecting teammates, companions, warframe abilities etc, making roar contribute upto 4x more damage than eclipse. 

4 hours ago, MarakViri said:

"For Eclipse to be what Roar is, it needs 2 mod slots" is how you phrase this. Ignoring the fact that the two are, inherently not equal,

Eclipse is being nerfed to 30% weapon damage increase. Rhino Roar is 30% factional damage increase. 

30% is inherently 30%. Even if the math is applied differently. If you actually read the patch notes, you might understand why nerfing Eclipse by 80% isn't fair when Roar only was nerfed by 40%. 

Pro Tip. Read the patch notes.

[HeavyFarms]

7 hours ago, MarakViri said:

... because this isn't the "obvious solution" maybe? 100% is obscenely better than 30% 

The "Obvious solution" is for you to read the patch notes. 

Both abilities are 30%. 

The "Obvious solution" if you ask me is to reduce Eclipse by 40% the same way Rhino Roar was reduced by 40%. 

Eclipse would be a 90% increase weapon damage increase, 3x the amount its being nerfed to.

[VENDOMINUS]

5 hours ago, MarakViri said:

That said, please tell me what you meant by 2 mods, because this cannot be it.

Well, since you can't snapshot the duration on other people and the range of total eclipse is way lower, you obviously need a range mod to compensate To make it the same the closest mod would be overextended if you plan for your team to have the buff for it's duration, but let's just say "any mod for simplicity. We also don't add a mod for duration since their durations are close enough and eclipse doesn't care about duration in the case of buffing teammates.

 

You did also conveniently skip the case where roar has about 2x the ability strength of eclipse.

91% Eclipse / 179% Roar

Faction ModEclipse : 1000 * 1.3 * 1.91 = 2483

DoT : 2483 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 1129.765

Roar : 1000 * 1.837 = 1837

DoT :  1837 * 1.837 * 0.35 == 1181.09915

 

 

As you can see, convenient math is convenient. Not all people have all primed mods so using them at all for these calculations is cheap. Also, if you're using roar, it's unlikely that you'll use a faction mod to begin with. The whole Calculation people are making is flawed from the very start. I often find myself needing to cut either attack speed or something else from the builds, because there simply isn't enough room for everything.

 

Also I'm sure using all you energy on eclipse wouldn't be a problem if you're relying on shieldgating, buy spamming skills every second xD.

Edited March 27 by VENDOMINUS

[MarakViri]

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Then why is there an augment mod, that takes up an entire modslot to turn eclipse into roar. (10m less range.)

So that you can use it as a team buff? Why does [Everlasting Ward] exist if not to allow you to support your teammates better? Also, [Total Eclipse] doesn't make it function like Roar. It makes it function like Elemental Ward and Vex Armor, only providing the buff to teammates while they are within range, instead of applying to teammates that are in range at the time of casting.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

First, let's correct your math. Cause you aren't using the patch notes

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

To fix this for you. 

• Base Abilities at 100% Power Strength: 30% Eclipse / 30% Roar (This is what they are in Helminth. The one people are complaining about)

No, I'm not using the patch notes. Very observant. Except the fact that I mention that 30% in my first sentence. You even quoted that! I am, in fact, using the correct math, as it is based on somebody else's recommended value. (Let me quote it for you;)

20 hours ago, VENDOMINUS said:

I'm surprised noone mentioned the obvious solution to the eclipse problem. Have it be at 100% damage buff and 90% DR for helmith

I am running math based on this suggestion, not DE's official value. I did that a page or two ago. I have also run the math for the ability being a 45% multiplier. So, you didn't "fix" any math. The math I ran was at the suggested 100% buff value, not upcoming 30% value.

That said, your math is good. And comes to, functionally, the same thing I have been arguing; that 30% is too low if it is meant to be "equal" to Roar. Though I also argue that going up to 100% is far too high, which you might have known if you read even the post you quoted me from.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Eclipse is being nerfed to 30% weapon damage increase. Rhino Roar is 30% factional damage increase. 

30% is inherently 30%. Even if the math is applied differently. If you actually read the patch notes, you might understand why nerfing Eclipse by 80% isn't fair when Roar only was nerfed by 40%. 

Pro Tip. Read the patch notes.

Again, maybe actually read the post you're quoting? It ended with this;

6 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Yeah, at this point there's no real chance of it being changed for the next update. My argument to you is that 100% is far too high of a base (honestly, I didn't realise how strong it was until I got into all the math myself), but even at 50%, it is conditionally stronger in damage that Roar all the way up to 300% strength. At 45%, it's conditionally weaker by 175%. That is how ludicrous the ability scaling can be.

Pro-Tip. Read your source material. Granted, this doesn't mention the patch notes at all, but if you read just this page alone, you would probably understand why my math is where it is.

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

The "Obvious solution" is for you to read the patch notes. 

Both abilities are 30%. 

The "Obvious solution" if you ask me is to reduce Eclipse by 40% the same way Rhino Roar was reduced by 40%. 

Eclipse would be a 90% increase weapon damage increase, 3x the amount its being nerfed to.

Ah, so completely remove Roar as a viable weapon damage buff in comparison to Eclipse? Maybe you didn't notice, but I ran the math for it at 100%. Heck, I gave Roar a 79% Strength advantage, and it was still failing to compare even at over 500% Strength. You might not have noticed that; you only quoted it after all. You saw those numbers, and are now saying that 90% would be a good, balanced option? Maybe you're the one who needs to do some reading.

55 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

Well, since you can't snapshot the duration on other people and the range of total eclipse is way lower, you obviously need a range mod to compensate To make it the same the closest mod would be overextended if you plan for your team to have the buff for it's duration, but let's just say "any mod for simplicity. We also don't add a mod for duration since their durations are close enough and eclipse doesn't care about duration in the case of buffing teammates.

Okay, a range mod to match the range. That makes sense, I suppose. Arbitrary, but if you want it to be used as a team buff that would make sense. This makes so much more sense. I mean, that's still only if you want to be a team support, and don't hug your allies, but I'll concede the point. Granted, the frame using the ability in this way probably has other needs for range, but regardless.

55 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

You did also conveniently skip the case where roar has about 2x the ability strength of eclipse.

Perhaps this is me lacking a level of understanding, but why would it have double the strength? I get that [Overextended] would reduce the Strength by 60% ... but uhh;

6 hours ago, MarakViri said:

100% Eclipse / 179% Roar

500% Eclipse / 579% Roar

I ran them with a Strength variation of 79%. And, on that topic ...

55 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

As you can see, convenient math is convenient. Not all people have all primed mods so using them at all for these calculations is cheap. Also, if you're using roar, it's unlikely that you'll use a faction mod to begin with. The whole Calculation people are making is flawed from the very start. I often find myself needing to cut either attack speed or something else from the builds, because there simply isn't enough room for everything.

I provided math for the Primed Faction mods and no faction mods. Either way, Eclipse is better (when everything is built properly) when it has a base value of 100%.

6 hours ago, MarakViri said:

100% Eclipse / 179% Roar

• Faction Mod
  • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 2 = 3100 
    • DoT : 3100 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1681.75
  • Roar : 1000 * 2.087 = 2087 
    • DoT : 2087 * 2.087 * 0.35 == 1524.44915
• No Faction Mod
  • Eclipse : 1000 * 2 = 2000 
    • DoT : 2000 * 0.35 == 700
  • Roar : 1000 * 1.537 = 1537
    • DoT : 1537 * 1.537 * 0.35 == 826.82915

This was at 100% and 179% Strength (Strength variation). Yes, without Faction mods, Roar outpaced in terms of DoT. I suppose I could have used regular Faction mods but, as you said, most people don't use then with Roar. Realistically, you should be comparing Eclipse with faction mods to Roar without them by that logic, and that is a landslide victory to Eclipse.

55 minutes ago, VENDOMINUS said:

Also I'm sure using all you energy on eclipse wouldn't be a problem if you're relying on shieldgating, buy spamming skills every second xD.

... I mean true, but completely missing the point. That said, with all the means of energy economy we have, it probably wouldn't make much difference honestly.

Edited March 27 by MarakViri

[HeavyFarms]

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

So that you can use it as a team buff?

Bro. Stop embarrasing yourself. 

Have some self respect. Eclipse being nerfed to 30% isn't worth wasting a mod slot, so you can give teammates 30% weapon damage. Its not worth it. 

Everlasting ward on the other hand, can be worth it. 

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

 [Total Eclipse] doesn't make it function like Roar. 

Nope. It is functionally the same as roar. 

You press roar, your teammates get 30% faction damage. You press total eclipse you get 30% weapon damage. 

But go on. Please tell me how two buffs with identical percentages, are too different to be compared. 

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

No, I'm not using the patch notes.

Not using your brain either honestly.

See people are complaining about patch notes they disagree with. People don't mind how roar or eclipse are normally. Ecplise is fine, even being worth total eclipse cause when its not nerfed to the ground, its a pretty decent buff. 

Not at 30%. 

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

I am running math based on this suggestion, not DE's official value.

Your math was corrected. Its because your math was wrong. No matter how you try to spin your nonsense, eclipse was significantly nerfed in helminth more than rhino roar was. 

That's why people are complaining that 30% eclipse isn't worth running. Because at 30% you are better off using rhino roar, for buffing your weapons, companions, and warframe abilities, instead of limiting yourself to weapons. 
 

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

That said, your math is good. And comes to, functionally, the same thing I have been arguing; that 30% is too low if it is meant to be "equal" to Roar. Though I also argue that going up to 100% is far too high, which you might have known if you read even the post you quoted me from.

I told you that it would have to be around 100% to actually be worth it. That is still true. You can pretend otherwise. Logic isn't your strong suit so I'll help you out. 

You can grab a team buff, that buffs a maximum of 4 players by 30% at base. Or you can buff only your own weapon by 3x that amount. This is called trade off. You can buff 3 other players, but you get 1/3rd of the buff. 

Like I told you in my response, eclipse would need to be 90% for it to be at 60% strength, same percentage as roar. Logically, weakening one ability by 80% to the point IT HAS NO POSITIVE USES THAT WAY makes the ability functionally pointless. 
 

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

Pro-Tip.

Pro tip, learn to accept you're wrong. 

None of your logic makes any credible sense, you aren't going to convinve anyone and your argument doesn't have substance. If Eclipse was too powerful for you, you would want the normal version nerfed. However, the normal version is fine. Same with Rhino's normal roar. 

Oddly, Rhino's normal roar is exactly 1/3rd the power of normal eclipse. 50 vs 150. so 30 vs 90 makes perfect sense. But again, then you'd have to admit you're wrong.

26 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

Ah, so completely remove Roar as a viable weapon damage buff in comparison to Eclipse?

You completely removed eclipse as a viable buff. 

See, the entire reason normal eclipse is viable is because its 3x the strength of rhino roar at base. But it doesn't buff allies unless you sacrifice for it. 

So. Our little argument is over. There is no argument you can make for eclipse that makes sense that doesn't keep it at the same relative strength roar is when you helminth it. 

Edited March 27 by HeavyFarms

[VENDOMINUS]

No point in hate speech. This is a should be a civil discussion. MarakViri has his points. They're not really different from mine. In my first post in this thread I did write that 50% would be the bare minimum where the 2 abilities would be comparable for their own advantages. Realizing they could make the skill 3x more costly did open the possibility of the skill actually getting a QoL instead of getting deleted.

 

Atm I can't think of any frame that I'd prefer to use Eclipse on over Roar. For Melee ,Wrathful advance seems better than both to me.

 

Well, time to go and subsume Roar on everything I guess. RIP Eclipse.

[MarakViri]

Alright, so, I don't normally fight the unarmed in the battle of wits, but I find you lack of civility genuinely toxic, so I'm going to try one last time to explain to you, in as simple terms as I can, exactly what is happening, since it is clear you have been unable to do that on your own. Firstly, here are some of the quotes from my own posts on this very topic (from earlier pages), in which I am referring to the "Patch Notes";

 

Spoiler

Here is me regarding the severity of the reduction (regarding percentage drops from the base ability and the subsumed ability (the drop from 200% to 30%).

On 2024-03-15 at 10:08 PM, MarakViri said:

Reducing the effectiveness of an ability by 85% is obscene. To put it into perspective for you, that would be like Roar increasing damage by a staggeringly oppressive 7.5%, or Gloom slowing enemies by, at base 5.25%, or Thermal Sunder (Heat) dealing 135 Damage. Do you understand why people might be upset by this. I remember complaints when they dropped Roar from 50% to 30%, a static loss of 20% (equal to only 40% of it's actual damage) because it's a "huge loss of potential damage". The coming update is going to reduce Eclipse, the only damage multiplier Helminth ability even close to matching Roar, by lowering its damage by a static 170% (for an actual loss of 85%)

Here is the basis of the argument (30% being far too low to be competitive to Roar).

On 2024-03-15 at 11:45 PM, MarakViri said:

You don't seem to be understanding one very simple fact; if Roar and Eclipse both provide 30% Damage, and all you care about is damage and/or you don't need a temporary 75% DR, nobody will use Eclipse. Altering the game to functionally remove an ability from the Helminth is not striking a balance, it's just increasing the overuse of Roar (which is ALREADY more used than Eclipse).

Further elaboration on why it will not be competitive.

On 2024-03-15 at 11:45 PM, MarakViri said:

With both Roar and Eclipse at 30%, and the general lack of Faction Mods on builds, there will be no instance in which the latter is better than the former. The only time that is ever not true is on a weapon that cannot apply any DoT effects, and have a Faction Mod equipped. That is the only situation in which Eclipse will result in more damage than Roar. And using the "but it also offers DR" is a lie, because it is one or the other. The offensive effect has to be viable, or everyone will use the defensive effect. If the defensive effect isn't viable, people will only use the offensive effect. If neither of them, are viable (as they are in the proposed change), then the ability won't be used.

Altered proposal values (based on a gimmicky change, admittedly, but there is still clear reference to the patch note values)

On 2024-03-21 at 3:24 PM, MarakViri said:

Honestly, I don't think that 30% is good enough of a damage buff, nor is 75% good enough of a damage reduction. Having it be one or the other in this sense lets you build for your preferred option, but still gives you access to the alternative (at a reduced strength), or even just buffing the chosen attribute without weakening the other (going from 30/75 to 50/75 or 30/90).

And the general idea as to where the two abilities should be stronger than the other.

On 2024-03-18 at 10:58 AM, MarakViri said:

People are proposing 75-100%, which I feel is too strong. The sweet spot is between 40 and 60 percent, to allow Roar to still be the ultimately better choice overall while still allowing Eclipse to shine in the places where it can (such as on Status Immune (or DoT immune) enemies).

Ultimately, Roar will always be a better option for Endurance, because most enemies are not DoT immune, whereas Eclipse is better for targeted missions, such as the Eidolon fights, or the Profit-Taker, which would not be the case if it's Base value was the same as Roar.

 

 

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Bro. Stop embarrasing yourself. 

Have some self respect. Eclipse being nerfed to 30% isn't worth wasting a mod slot, so you can give teammates 30% weapon damage. Its not worth it. 

Everlasting ward on the other hand, can be worth it. 

Wow. Tell me you have literacy capability, but still somehow fail to read. I have been making that exact argument the entire time. The only difference is that I have at least some understanding of damage scaling, and am aware that, at the base 100% strength that you proposed, the roles get reverse, and Eclipse becomes overwhelmingly better than Roar.

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Nope. It is functionally the same as roar. 

You press roar, your teammates get 30% faction damage. You press total eclipse you get 30% weapon damage. 

But go on. Please tell me how two buffs with identical percentages, are too different to be compared

... The numbers being the same doesn't make them equal when they are added to different things. Yes, both of the multipliers are for damage, but Roar applies Faction damage (and thus gets quadratic scaling with DoT effects), whereas Eclipse is a unique multiplier. I've run the math. You have run the math (for the 30% strength at least), and still fail to understand that. I am in absolute awe at your lack of awareness.

And no, Roar applies to all enemies allies in range of the ability at the time of casting, and will remain on them for the entirety of the duration, regardless of whether they remain in range. [Total Eclipse] applies to allies that are within range of you at any moment while the ability is active, and will only remain active so long as they are still within range of you (which is more similar to the base effect of Elemental Ward).

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Not using your brain either honestly.

See people are complaining about patch notes they disagree with. People don't mind how roar or eclipse are normally. Ecplise is fine, even being worth total eclipse cause when its not nerfed to the ground, its a pretty decent buff. 

Not at 30%.

I am aware. You, however, don't seem to be, despite many attempts to educate you (even though you could educate yourself just by reading the posts you quoted properly), that we are doing just that. I am simply going further and saying that some of the player-proposed changes (such as going from 30% to 100%) are, while resulting in the ability being stronger, not going to meet the criteria that DE claimed to be the reason for the nerf.

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Your math was corrected. Its because your math was wrong. No matter how you try to spin your nonsense, eclipse was significantly nerfed in helminth more than rhino roar was. 

That's why people are complaining that 30% eclipse isn't worth running. Because at 30% you are better off using rhino roar, for buffing your weapons, companions, and warframe abilities, instead of limiting yourself to weapons

Again, my math wasn't wrong. You just saw the values of the argument and instantly jumped on the "but the values aren't the ones in the patch notes" as if I was countering the patch notes. Imagine claiming somebody's math was wrong because you didn't read the question they were answering. Do you want to see where I did that for the patch note values? Let's have a look;

On 2024-03-26 at 11:01 AM, MarakViri said:

Under the assumption of the current strength values, a weapon that deals 1000 Damage, and both with and without a Primed Faction Mod (+55%), then you get the following (which is basically just slightly expanded math);

• (30%) Eclipse = (1000 * 1.55 * 1.3) = 2,015                      |  = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300
  • DoT == (2,015 * 1.55 * 0.35) = 1,093.1375            |  == (1,300 * 0.35) = 455
• (30%) Roar == (1000 * 1.85) = 1,850                               |  = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300
  • DoT == (1,850 * 1.85 * 0.35) = 1,197.875             |  == (1300 * 1.3 * 0.35) = 591.5

Basically, Roar has less initial damage when modded for Faction damage, and equal when it isn't, but a higher DoT DPS in both forms. In this iteration, Eclipse will never perform better than Roar when not modded for Faction damage, and will only ever outperform Roar in flat DPS (excluding DoT) even with Faction Mods (and will never outperform it regarding DoT. Now, alter the base value of Eclipse from 30% to 45% (which is my new "ideal" as 50% was realistically too high (I screwed up my math a bit)), and you instead get the following;

• (45%) Eclipse = (1000 * 1.55 * 1.45) = 2,247.5              | = (1000 * 1.45) = 1,450  
  • DoT == (2247.5 * 1.55 * 0.35) = 1,219.26875      |  == (1,450 * 0.35) = 507.5
• (30%) Roar == (1000 * 1.85) = 1,850                            |  = (1000 * 1.3) = 1,300
  • DoT == (1,850 * 1.85 * 0.35) = 1,197.875             |  == (1300 * 1.3 * 0.35) = 591.5

Huh ... how strange. This appears to be the math for the patch notes, along with my proposed value (changing 30% to 45%). But, that can't be, because I never read the patch notes. Now, lets look at your math for a second, and compare the two. And this is on the top of the page ... what is happening?

On 2024-03-28 at 1:35 AM, HeavyFarms said:

Base Abilities at 100% Power Strength: 30% Eclipse / 30% Roar (This is what they are in Helminth. The one people are complaining about)

• Faction Mod
  • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.3 = 2015 
    • DoT : 2015 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1093.75
  • Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 
    • DoT : 1850* 1.85* 0.35 == 1197.875
• No Faction Mod
  • Eclipse : 1000 * 1.3 = 1300 
    • DoT : 1300 * 0.35 == 455
  • Roar : 1000 * 1.3 = 1300
    • DoT : 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5

Wait, what's this? The numbers are identical. I mean, except for your conclusion to the Eclipse DoT, which is wrong, but the rest is the same as mine. How could this happen when you based your math on the patch notes?

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

I told you that it would have to be around 100% to actually be worth it. That is still true. You can pretend otherwise. Logic isn't your strong suit so I'll help you out. 

You can grab a team buff, that buffs a maximum of 4 players by 30% at base. Or you can buff only your own weapon by 3x that amount. This is called trade off. You can buff 3 other players, but you get 1/3rd of the buff. 

Like I told you in my response, eclipse would need to be 90% for it to be at 60% strength, same percentage as roar. Logically, weakening one ability by 80% to the point IT HAS NO POSITIVE USES THAT WAY makes the ability functionally pointless. 

Yeah, 100% has it out-scale Roar in DoT damage at every achievable Strength Value when modded for Faction Damage. I can see your argument in that (having Eclipse be better at the cost of the weapon mod slot), but it isn't meant to be better. It's meant to be equal or worse (hence why they matched value, resulting in it never having better DoT than Roar, which is why people use Roar).

Yes, it would be a trade-off ... except it wouldn't be 3x the damage at base. As pointed out by somebody else, people don't use faction mods with Roar (diminishing returns and all that), so only in that situation would it be 3x the damage (3100 v 1300 and 1681.75 v 591.5). But, how would [Total Eclipse] fit into that? Have it altered to  have it's strength reduced when allies are within range, or let them get the 3x stronger buff? There are many considerations that have to go into balancing these things, and you are clearly only focusing on one factor.

Bringing up the helminth diminish as if I am unaware of this (it's the first quote in the spoiler text, since I know you don't want to read) doesn't change anything. I agree that the drop is too sharp, and it sets a dangerous precedent, but yes, it ultimately makes the ability useless. Welcome to the conversation.

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Pro tip, learn to accept you're wrong. 

None of your logic makes any credible sense, you aren't going to convinve anyone and your argument doesn't have substance. If Eclipse was too powerful for you, you would want the normal version nerfed. However, the normal version is fine. Same with Rhino's normal roar. 

Oddly, Rhino's normal roar is exactly 1/3rd the power of normal eclipse. 50 vs 150. so 30 vs 90 makes perfect sense. But again, then you'd have to admit you're wrong

Pro-Tip; learn to actually read the posts you quote and the counter-arguments rather than arguing from a ditch thinking you have the high ground. I do accept when I am wrong. I have been wrong several times. None of those times have been against you. And, no, why would I want the base ability to be further nerfed? Are you arguing strawman fallacies now?

Also, no. Your math is wrong. And this is basic math too. Roar has a base value of 50%. Eclipse has a base value of 200% (as declared in the patch notes you so espouse as gospel). That is ¹/₄ of the value. So really, it wouldn't be 30/90, but 30/120 that would "make perfect sense" to you. But, you'd have to admit you're wrong.

22 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

You completely removed eclipse as a viable buff. 

See, the entire reason normal eclipse is viable is because its 3x the strength of rhino roar at base. But it doesn't buff allies unless you sacrifice for it. 

So. Our little argument is over. There is no argument you can make for eclipse that makes sense that doesn't keep it at the same relative strength roar is when you helminth it. 

Nah. DE did that. You're just trying to remove Roar as a viable buff. You know, the thing I've been arguing from the start? And no, that isn't the reason it's viable. So long as it is legitimately competitive to Roar, it is viable. Some people play solo, and Eclipse has a lower energy cost. It doesn't have to be better than Roar, it just can't always be worse (as it now will be, as there is no situation where its DoT is better than Roar, and only does more raw damage when the weapon is modded for Faction Damage).

And yes, our little "argument" is over. Eclipse offers more than just damage (even though the DR isn't really worth the ability slot with it's cap of 75%), and can be used for that purpose on certain frames if desired. Roar will still remain the "plug-and-play" damage buff ability, and Eclipse will likely only be used on faction-modded weapons when targeting DoT immune enemies. But I know I'm not going to convince you, as you don't seem on-board with actually hearing (or reading in this case) and digesting viewpoints before responding, instead preferring to shut down the discussion. Have a pleasant day.

Edited March 28 by MarakViri

[HeavyFarms]

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Alright, so, I normally don't fight the unarmed in the battle of wits, but I find you lack of civility genuinely toxic,

Its not a fight. That would imply you are competition. You can't compete.

Outside of the correct application of math, I haven't seen you do anything correct. Your logic and reasoning have no standards other than what you "feel" is fair. 

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

The only difference is that I have at least some understanding of damage scaling, and am aware that, at the base 100% strength that you proposed, the roles get reverse, and Eclipse becomes overwhelmingly better than Roar.

You suffer from being pretentious. That's the difference between us. 

Ecliipse should be stronger. Because Eclipse doesn't apply to 3 other teammates without a significant trade off. You and I can compare Roar and Eclipse all day. However you don't care or consider how much more damage Roar provides simply buffing an entire squad. 

Roar just scales an entire team's damage. Weapons, abilities, companions. It does it all. Saryn isn't going to benefit from Eclipse like it would from Roar. 

So I've been proposing to keep the helminth versions of both abilities in line with their full power counterparts. Something you can't fathom because you have no concept of how to balance single person buffs, vs group buffs. 

Let's go back to one of our examples. 

• Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.3 = 2015 
• Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 

Now, instead of limiting ourselves to solo player perspective, we are going to include teammates. 

Roar: 4 * 1000 * 1.85 = 7400

Roar is almost 50% stronger from teammates alone. Not including Companions, Abilities, or anything else. A base Saryn Miasma can do 3600 damage. Roar would buff that to 4680 per enemy hit. So Eclipse adds 465 damage. Roar adds 300 PER PERSON, and 1080 damage per Miasma. 

So to a knucklehead like yourself, what would it take to make Eclipse competitive in such a scenario? Are you going to bring Roar that ends up adding 2280 damage? Or are you going to use Eclipse for 465? 

Now. We are going to use what Eclipse SHOULD be. Not what you feel. 90% Weapon damage. 

• Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.9 = 2945. That's 1395 damage difference. Rhino roar (Which should be the weaker weapon damage buff) adds 1200 weapon damage across an entire team. That's 195 difference between the two abilities. All it would take for Roar to catch up to that difference is If the team has companions that can deal 37.5 (or 3% of their player's damage) 
  
  So let's give you a summary using these numbers as an example. 
  
  Damage Increase per One Person:
  30% Roar with One Miasma = 1380 damage. (300 + 1080)
  90% Ecplise = 1395 damage.
  
  Eclipse needs to be 90% for this ^ exact reason. Its only a weapon damage increase. Any less that 90% and it can't compete with Roar.
  
  Full Squad Increase
  30% Roar = 1200 damage.
  90% Ecplise = 1395 damage.
  1 Miasma per player = 4320 damage.
  
  (This is all the damage Roar/Eclipse adds, not the total damage.)
  
  Remember when I said Eclipse had to be around this amount to be worth it? Maybe you should try listening to somebody who actually has a clue. 

Your proposed Eclipse? 

• Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.45 = 2247.5 Aka 697.5 damage increase.  Not even close to Roar + Miasma's 1380. Perhaps if you try... doubling the amount you listed, you'd get something close.

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

And no, Roar applies to all enemies in range of the ability at the time of casting, and will remain on them for the entirety of the duration, regardless of whether they remain in range. 

Roar applies to allies. Try to get your abilities correct. 

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

 [Total Eclipse] applies to allies that are within range of you at any moment while the ability is active,

Wonderful. Adding another way Eclipse can be functionally worse than Rhino Roar. 

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

I am aware

You are in fact not. 

You suffer from shortsightedness from focusing on a single aspect, instead of the full picture. 

Its why you can't make a convincing argument. 

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Wow. Tell me you have literacy capability,

Try having mental capacity first. 

8 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Bringing up the helminth diminish as if I am unaware of this

If you had any awareness outside yourself, (You should work on that btw.) you would have figured out the issue everyone else realized hours ago. 

Edited March 28 by HeavyFarms

[MarakViri]

20 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

Its not a fight. That would imply you are competition. You can't compete.

Outside of the correct application of math, I haven't seen you do anything correct. Your logic and reasoning have no standards other than what you "feel" is fair.

Because, despite what you seem to believe, discussions on a public forum aren't meant to be competitive. Why would I try to compete when I am trying to explain and understand? That's what a discussion is meant to be.

And, this is debatable. My logic and reasoning do, in fact, have standards. They just align themselves differently to yours.

23 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

You suffer from being pretentious. That's the difference between us. 

Ecliipse should be stronger. Because Eclipse doesn't apply to 3 other teammates without a significant trade off. You and I can compare Roar and Eclipse all day. However you don't care or consider how much more damage Roar provides simply buffing an entire squad.

Ah, so having a different opinion than you is pretentiousness? Got it. My most heartfelt and sincere apologies your all-knowingness. And yes, Eclipse should be arguably better. However, you are making a fair few assumptions in your claim. Firstly, you are assuming that all allies are within range of Roar at the moment of casting. In coordinated squads, this may be the case. But most content the game offers is not run in prebuilt squads, and most players tend to use non-recastable abilities (such as Roar) as soon ass they are available to cast, regardless of where your teammates are.

It is true that Eclipse does not provide this at base, though claiming that the one mod-slot required is "significant trade-off" seems disingenuous. That said, it will still be worse than Roar, as it has under half the effective range, so there is trade-off to make it a partially functional imitation. Making it "equal" Roar in range would be more akin to a "significant trade-off", so I'm going to assume that is what you meant.

That said, I am fully aware that Roar provides better damage, even at lesser values, due to being shared with teammates by default. Of course, that is under the assumption that they, as I previously stated, where close enough at the time of cast to be affected. Given the general gameplay style most present in most endless missions (standing in a small area and creating a chokepoint), this occurs fairly frequently, admittedly. But building Eclipse with it's augment provides that exact same feature.

Honestly, I would argue more that Eclipse should have the effect of it's augment become integrated to it's kit, with the augment shifting to function more like [Everlasting Ward], but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

34 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

Roar just scales an entire team's damage. Weapons, abilities, companions. It does it all. Saryn isn't going to benefit from Eclipse like it would from Roar. 

So I've been proposing to keep the helminth versions of both abilities in line with their full power counterparts. Something you can't fathom because you have no concept of how to balance single person buffs, vs group buffs

Yes, Roar does do that. Provides a Faction Damage Multiplier to all outgoing damage caused by somebody with the buff. So, yes, frames that utilise ability damage such as Saryn are going to prefer this. The thing is, Saryn would use Roar over Eclipse even if the latter had no diminished effect, because the ability damage is so integral to their kit. Especially given the interaction with Toxic Lash.

Yes, I understand you are trying to keep them in-line with their full power (even if you got the numbers wrong in doing so). And, despite your belief to the contrary, I actually can differentiate singular and group buffing abilities. But, prior to the update, how frequently was Eclipse actually better than Roar? It happened to be sure, but it was only really against DoT immune enemies (and even then it required some kind of snapshotting to be consistent, or was helped by the light coding for this express purpose). 

43 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

Let's go back to one of our examples. 

• Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.3 = 2015 
• Roar : 1000 * 1.85 = 1850 

Now, instead of limiting ourselves to solo player perspective, we are going to include teammates. 

Roar: 4 * 1000 * 1.85 = 7400

Roar is almost 50% stronger from teammates alone. Not including Companions, Abilities, or anything else. A base Saryn Miasma can do 3600 damage. Roar would buff that to 4680 per enemy hit. So Eclipse adds 465 damage. Roar adds 300 PER PERSON, and 1080 damage per Miasma. 

So to a knucklehead like yourself, what would it take to make Eclipse competitive in such a scenario? Are you going to bring Roar that ends up adding 2280 damage? Or are you going to use Eclipse for 465? 

You seem to be forgetting the fact that the initial, raw damage was never the strength of Roar. It was always the Damage over Time. You're also only providing examples where Primed Faction Mods are present (which gives Eclipse a distinct advantage). Also, we've already agreed that 30% is too low of a value, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up as if I'm defending that particular value instead of comparing the value's we are arguing (45% for me, and 120% for you (to keep it accurate to the diminish of Roar). Now, I'll run some math myself (I'll even do so under un-augmented conditions regarding Eclipse, and give Roar a full 4x multiplier for the players, as you wished.

Spoiler

100% Strength

• Primed Faction Mods
  • (45%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 1.45 == 2247.5
    • 2247.5 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1219.26875
  • (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 1.9 == 2945
    • 2945 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1597.6625
  • (120%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 2.2 == 3410
    • 3410 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1849.925
  • Roar = 1000 * 1.85 == 1850
    • 1850 * 1.85 * 0.35 == 1197.875
      • Team Raw Damage : 7400
      • Team DoT Damage : 4791.5
• Faction Mods
  • (45%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 1.45 == 1885
    • 1885 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 857.675
  • (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 1.9 == 2470
    • 2470 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 1123.85
  • (120%) Eclipses = 1000 * 1.3 * 2.2 == 2860
    • 2860 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 1301.3
  • Roar = 1000 * 1.6 == 1600
    • 1600 * 1.6 * 0.35 == 896
      • Team Raw Damage : 6400
      • Team DoT Damage : 3584
• No Faction Mods
  • (45%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.45 == 1450
    • 1450 * 0.35 == 507.5
  • (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.9 == 1900
    • 1900 * 0.35 == 665
  • (120%) Eclipse = 1000 * 2.2 == 2200
    • 2200 * 0.35 == 770
  • Roar = 1000 * 1.3 == 1300
    • 1300 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 591.5
      • Team Raw Damage = 5200
      • Team DoT Damage = 2366

 

200% Strength

• Primed Faction Mods
  • (45%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 1.9 == 2945
    • 2945 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 1597.6625
  • (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 2.8 == 4340
    • 4340 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 2354.45
  • (120%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.55 * 3.4 == 5270
    • 5270 * 1.55 * 0.35 == 2858.975
  • Roar = 1000 * 2.15 == 2150
    • 2150 * 2.15 * 0.35 == 1617.875
      • Team Raw Damage : 8600
      • Team DoT Damage : 6471.5
• Faction Mods
  • (45%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 1.9 == 2470
    • 2470 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 1123.85
  • (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 2.8 == 3640
    • 3640 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 1656.2
  • (120%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.3 * 3.4 == 4420 
    • 4420 * 1.3 * 0.35 == 2011.1
  • Roar = 1000 * 1.9 == 1900 
    • 1900 * 1.9 * 0.35 == 1263.5  
      • Team Raw Damage : 7600
      • Team DoT Damage : 5054
• No Faction Mods
  • (45%) Eclipse = 1000 * 1.9 == 1900
    • 1900 * 0.35 == 665
  • (90%) Eclipse = 1000 * 2.8 == 2800
    • 2800 * 0.35 == 980
  • (120%) Eclipse = 1000 * 3.4 == 3400
    • 3400 * 0.35 == 1190
  • Roar = 1000 * 1.6 == 1600
    • 1600 * 1.6 * 0.35 == 896
      • Team Raw Damage : 6400
      • Team DoT Damage : 3584

Do you see the pattern? Regardless of the chosen strength of Eclipse at base, the team damage from Roar will outpace it, regardless of whether your modded for Faction Damage or not. That's how it is meant to be. Roar, as a team-wide buff, should provide more DPS when used as a team than Eclipse should as single target ability. However, Eclipse should be better at the individual level, but even Roar at 2 (or possibly 3) should out-DPS it.

A 45% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 30.37% of the raw damage, and 25.44% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 34.24%, and the DoT goes to 24.68%.

A 90% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 39.79% of the raw damage, and 33.34% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 50.46%, and the DoT goes to 36.24%.

A 120% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 46.08% of the raw damage, and 38.60% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 61.27%, and the DoT goes to 44.17%.

These values all fall into what I would call an acceptable range (dealing more than 1 user of Roar, but less than 3). Except that both of your proposals have Eclipse outscaling Roar regarding DoT here. However, what happens when you use non-primed faction mods, or no faction mods at all? 

The 45% Eclipse calculation, with regular faction mods and at base strength, deals 29.45% raw damage and 23.93% of the DoT, the 90% version will deal 38.59% raw damage and 31.35% DoT damage, and the 120% version will deal 44.68% of the raw damage, and 36.30% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, these shift to (32.5% / 22.23%), (47.89% / 32.77%) and (58.1% / 39.79%). Notice that the DoT is still outscaling?

Now, once you lose the faction mods, things change. Kind of. The 45% base value deals 27.88% of the raw damage, and 21.44% of the DoT, the 90% version deals 36.53% of the raw damage and 28.10% of the DoT damage, and the 120% base value deals 42.3% of the raw damage, and 32.54% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, these shift to (29.68% / 18.55%), (43.75% / 27.34%) and (53.12% / 33.20%). Without Faction damage multipliers, the 90% proposal now has it's DoT damage outscaled by Roar, but the 120% version (which, again, is what the logic you used says it should be) still scales beyond Roar regarding DoT damage at 200% Strength. 

Now, 200% Strength is functionally nothing (being achieved with just [Blind Rage] (technically 199%, but whatever)), and there are many builds in the 300%+ range. However, let's see the side by side more clearly, with the 45% value on the left, your 90% value in the middle, and the 120% value (which is what you technically claimed it should be to maintain the diminish scaling between the abilities) on the right;

• Primed Faction Mods
  • Raw Damage : 30.37% > 34.24% == 39.79% > 50.46% == 46.08% > 61.27%
  • DoT Damage : 25.44% > 24.68% == 33.34% > 36.24% == 38.60% > 44.17%
• Regular Faction Mods
  • Raw Damage : 29.45% > 32.50% == 38.59% > 47.89% == 44.68% > 58.1%
  • DoT Damage : 23.93% < 22.23% == 31.35% > 32.77%== 36.30% > 39.79%
• No Faction Mods
  • Raw Damage : 27.88% > 29.68% == 36.53% > 43.75% == 42.30% > 53.12%
  • DoT Damage : 21.44% < 18.55% == 28.10% < 27.34% == 32.54% > 33.20%

This has given me two conclusions. The first is that I am incorrect with my number. 45% is still too low, as the raw Damage should be higher. The second conclusion is that you are also incorrect, as 120% leaves the DoT outscaling Roar, which it most definitely should not be doing, and the 90% value only scales correctly when no faction mods are included at all However, I am now more open to higher values, so congratulations. The way you went about it was very, very poor, but I am closer to agreeing with you then I was before. I could do the math to find the ideal value, but, honestly, I don't really care enough when there's no real benefit, but it's probably around 80%.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Eclipse : 1000 * 1.55 * 1.9 = 2945. That's 1395 damage difference. Rhino roar (Which should be the weaker weapon damage buff) adds 1200 weapon damage across an entire team. That's 195 difference between the two abilities. All it would take for Roar to catch up to that difference is If the team has companions that can deal 37.5 (or 3% of their player's damage) 

... Yes and no. You would deal 2945 damage with Eclipse, true. However, in the same scenario with Roar, under the hypothetical you are running with in that it affects every team member, even if you remove faction mods, each teammate will be dealing 1300 damage a piece, for a total of 5200 damage. That is not a difference of 195 damage. If you're going to set the rules of this discussion, at least play by them. Are we going off of 1v1 or 1v4 math? 

Because you're calculating Roar without the Faction Mods. Now, granted, you don't really use them together due to diminishing returns. But there is no reason that your teammates wouldn't be running them. Also, don't know if you know this, you can have both buffs simultaneously, you just can't have both abilities on the same frame. So any argument regarding team composition is immediately flawed, as you could have one team-buffer support unit with Roar, and your DPS unit(s) with Eclipse or something anyway.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Damage Increase per One Person:
30% Roar with One Miasma = 1380 damage. (300 + 1080)
90% Ecplise = 1395 damage.

Eclipse needs to be 90% for this ^ exact reason. Its only a weapon damage increase. Any less that 90% and it can't compete with Roar.

Full Squad Increase
30% Roar = 1200 damage.
90% Ecplise = 1395 damage.
1 Miasma per player = 4320 damage

Ah yes, because comparing the things they don't share is how you balance it, yes. How much damage reduction is Roar capable of providing again? This is why I said that your math is good, but the argument isn't. You're coming from the position that Eclipse, an ability that is solely a weapon buff, has to compete with the combined damage capability of Roar, which is both a weapon and an ability buff. If you are on a frame that wants to deal damage with abilities, then Eclipse doesn't matter. Even if it had a multiplier of 500%, so long as you wanted to improve your ability damage (granted, at that value you wouldn't need to).

This would be like me arguing that Roar needs the ability to reduce incoming damage because that's something that Eclipse can do. The abilities are not identical. Treating them as if they have to have identical damage outputs is foolish and detrimental. They don't need to equal, they simply need to be equally viable. If I am going to run the Murmur Assassination with, say, Loki, do I want the ability that boosts ability damage and weapon damage, or the one that just boosts weapon damage, but does so better? The DoT scaling doesn't really matter there either.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Roar applies to allies. Try to get your abilities correct. 

Correct. That was a typo. Thankyou for pointing that out. The attitude seems unnecessary, but given you seem to be treating me as a hostile entity because I disagree with you, I suppose it makes sense. Still incredibly rude though.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Wonderful. Adding another way Eclipse can be functionally worse than Rhino Roar

I mean, I'd like to say that "different" would be more apt, but yeah, this is worse. Kind of. It can be useful, such as when teammates are far away at the time of casting, but something more like [Everlasting Ward] would be way better.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

You are in fact not. 

You suffer from shortsightedness from focusing on a single aspect, instead of the full picture. 

Its why you can't make a convincing argument

Ah yes. Focusing on a single aspect. I suppose you don't do that. That's why you knew that 60% of 200% was 90%, even though it is 120%, and based your math around that. And are trying to make to make Eclipse provide weapon damage potential equal to the combined ability damage potential and weapon damage potential of Roar, instead of just trying to have it outperform the Weapon Damage Potential (even if not the DoT damage, but I might give you that if you were able to make that work). I simply can't convince you because you are so sure of yourself that you won't actually internalise or even comprehend anything that goes against your viewpoint.

And, again, going right to insults when you can't understand somebody's point of view instead of asking them to elaborate or something. I would respond in kind, but you actually can make a fairly convincing argument ... even if that is only because you are capable of math, and were so far off in your understanding of what I am trying to convey that I had to expand my reasoning, ultimately coming to the conclusion that you are still wrong, but not quite as wrong as I thought.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

Try having mental capacity first. 

Again, the insults. You're really coming across like somebody who doesn't understand why (almost) nobody likes them, but does absolutely nothing to change themselves, or figure out why it is that way.

2 hours ago, HeavyFarms said:

If you had any awareness outside yourself, (You should work on that btw.) you would have figured out the issue everyone else realized hours ago

I do have awareness outside of myself. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be a trait we share. You seem aware that their is an outside, but are perfectly content letting it remain that way as you adopt a "me-against-them" mindset in literally everything, including an entirely pointless discussion about numbers in a videogame, as if either of our opinions (no matter how backed up they are) will change anything. I simply enjoy the conversations with differing viewpoints, but I'll make an exception for you, as you don't want a discussion, you want to browbeat people into agreeing with you without even attempting to understand their viewpoints or basis of their opinion.

And the "issue" was apparent. The numbers are too low. You know, the thing I've said the entire time, but you have been to busy being angry and insulting to notice? It's been pointed out to you by me in every response, was pointed out to you by another poster, and yet you are still on the "you have no idea what you're talking about" high-horse that, at this point, is beginning to look like barely clears my ankles.

Perhaps you could try to explain, as calmly (and possibly simply) as you can, what it is that you think I am trying to convey? Because I feel like you are under a mistaken impression on that topic. 

I genuinely hope you are able to improve yourself and your ability to communicate without immediately falling into insults when people disagree with you though, as it's clear you have, at bare minimum, a decent amount of intellect behind the arrogance.

[HeavyFarms]

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

Because, despite what you seem to believe, discussions on a public forum aren't meant to be competitive.

You said you wanted a battle of wit. You already lost. Brevity is the soul of wit. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

And, this is debatable. My logic and reasoning do, in fact,

are entirely opinionated and incapable of listening to others. 

In fact, self awareness would be incredibly helpful to yourself. Please look into it. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

Ah, so having a different opinion than you is pretentiousness? 

Nope. The way you talked down to others is pretentious. After seeing how interact with others, is how I formed my currently very low opinion of you. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

It is true that Eclipse does not provide this at base, though claiming that the one mod-slot required is "significant trade-off"

Considering one mod slot can give you 99% power strength, and that can give large amounts of power? Until you put augment slots in as exilus mods, it is a significant trade off. 

However, if augments could be put in exilus most people would only lose say power drift or another far lesser trade off. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

Making it "equal" Roar in range would be more akin to a "significant trade-off", so I'm going to assume that is what you meant.

Seeing as Total Eclipse is 15 meters compared to Roar's 25, and only lasts as long as you are inside it. You have 3 downsides over roar.
#1 30 meter vs 50. #2 Have to stay within range for total eclipse #3 takes up a mod slot. Increasing the duration of eclipse like with narrow minded. is going to have a more negative impact then it would on roar. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

 I am fully aware that Roar provides better damage, even at lesser values, due to being shared with teammates by default.

You aren't aware of anything. If this was something you had any grasp of. You'd realize that a buff extending to 3 other teammates is stronger then a 15% increase to your own weapon damage. 

I know you are completely unaware because while Eclipse and Roar are the same tool for different jobs. Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff. Its job is to boost frames focused on both abilities and weapon damage. 

Eclipse is specialized. Its the Master of One opposed to the Jack of all trades nature of Roar. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

Honestly, I would argue more that Eclipse should have the effect of it's augment become integrated to it's kit, with the augment shifting to function more like [Everlasting Ward], but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

Nope! Mirage isn't a support frame. She's a frame that specializes in crowd control or damage. Her augment should stay an augment. I'd prefer if Total Eclipse was changed to give allies the full duration of the buff when they are in range. 

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

Yes, Roar does do that. Provides a Faction Damage Multiplier to all outgoing damage caused by somebody with the buff. So, yes, frames that utilise ability damage such as Saryn are going to prefer this. The thing is, Saryn would use Roar over Eclipse even if the latter had no diminished effect, because the ability damage is so integral to their kit. Especially given the interaction with Toxic Lash.

And you finally figured out what frames want roar. I quite enjoyed doing the math on Miasma and found out that it fit perfectly to my suggestion of 90% damage on eclipse. 

But Roar just helps Saryn out from spores, to Miasma.  

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

Yes, I understand you are trying to keep them in-line with their full power (even if you got the numbers wrong in doing so).

Except I didn't. I'm well aware that normal Eclipse is 200%. 60% of normal eclipse would 120%. However, I used 60% of the helminth eclipse we got to put it at 90%. That's still 3x the 30% we get from roar, and that would be the lowest Eclipse could go for me in order for me to consider it. 

Right now Eclipse only exists as a defense buff until it is buffed back up to being some kind of usable. 

2 hours ago, MarakViri said:

You seem to be forgetting the fact that the initial, raw damage was never the strength of Roar. It was always the Damage over Time.

Sorry but you focus on one thing at a time. I don't. 

Jack of all trades is Roar's strength. DoT being buffed more is nice, and is one of the reasons why Eclipse needs a stronger buff. But Roar is the omni buff. I won't get into how roar would quickly surpass eclipse in terms of a full squad based around status effects. 

2 hours ago, MarakViri said:

 Roar, as a team-wide buff, should provide more DPS when used as a team than Eclipse should as single target ability. However, Eclipse should be better at the individual level, but even Roar at 2 (or possibly 3) should out-DPS it.

You should be telling yourself this not me. 

Cause Eclipse isn't even winning at the individual level. Most Warframes have an equivlent of their own Miasma that makes Roar the better choice. 

2 hours ago, MarakViri said:

A 90% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 39.79% of the raw damage, and 33.34% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 50.46%, and the DoT goes to 36.24%.

A 120% base Eclipse with 100% Strength (when compared to a 4-man Roar of equal Ability Strength), will deal roughly 46.08% of the raw damage, and 38.60% of the DoT damage. At 200% Ability Strength, the raw damage increases to 61.27%, and the DoT goes to 44.17%

If you are trying to convince me that 90% Eclipse isn't the way to go, this isn't how you do it. Considering This isn't factoring what Roar would do to warframe abilities, This is what I'd expect the buff from a single ability to do well, instead of a jack of all trades ability. 

You counter your own argument far better then you could ever argue. 

2 hours ago, MarakViri said:

And, again, going right to insults when you can't understand somebody's point of view

 Unfortunately for you, I understand your point. That's the problem. That's why you are getting called out. Cause you don't actually think past surface level. 

You solely look at weapon damage and go "Eclipse should be 50% (15%) stronger than roar. "45% is fine" Except Mirage is 200% compared to Rhino's 50%. Your logic doesn't make sense compared to the source frames, If Eclipse was say... 75% Multiplicative Bonus then your logic would have at least some kind of precedent? Cause right now 45% is just a number you pulled out of your opinion, that you like the math of. There's no actual logic behind your choice of that number. 

Since you struggle with any concept of logic, I'll give you an example. Its called "Standard." De used Roar's 30% and used it as the standard to adjust eclipse. There's at least some logic there, even if doesn't make any sense nerfing a specific single person buff to 15% of its original value compared to a team wide omni buff.

Normal Eclipse and Normal Roar are fine. They are the stanadard. Roar in helminth is weakened by 60%. Logically, nerfing any similar ability past that 60% is going to negatively break that standard. I applied the standard to Eclipse at 150% and got the result of 90%. (If you want to make the argument for 120% instead, be my guest.) My 90% was a compromise between what it was, (150%) and the utterly useless 30% that it is now. 

90% is also the median between 30% and 150%. Exactly in between the two. It doesn't lose 77% to 66% of its power compared to how roar loses 40%. Like if any semblence of logic actually fit in your brain you'd go. "Hmm. Maybe Eclipse being 22% of its original power is too low. 

[MarakViri]

 

15 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

are entirely opinionated and incapable of listening to others. 

In fact, self awareness would be incredibly helpful to yourself. Please look into it

This seems to be something we both believe true of the other. You seem to be reading, but not really understanding several of my points. That might be mutual as well honestly.

17 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

Nope. The way you talked down to others is pretentious. After seeing how interact with others, is how I formed my currently very low opinion of you. 

I understand that my posts can be read that way, so I understand why this would be the conclusion you would come to. Still seems a bit excessive to devolve into insults so quickly, but perhaps that's simply my lacking of understanding as to "brevity" being the source of wit or something. After all, you are certainly concise with your insults.

20 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

Considering one mod slot can give you 99% power strength, and that can give large amounts of power? Until you put augment slots in as exilus mods, it is a significant trade off. 

However, if augments could be put in exilus most people would only lose say power drift or another far lesser trade off.

My question would then have to be "why would you sacrifice that mod". Because, yes, there is a mod that can provide 99% Ability Strength. But nobody is saying that you have to exclude that mod. The mod you exclude could be [Augur Message] on some builds, because some frames don't really need all of their ability slots to be dedicated to a single thing. But, if you choose to sacrifice [Blind Rage] in place of [Total Eclipse] on a build in which [Blind Rage] is viable, you do you.

23 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

Seeing as Total Eclipse is 15 meters compared to Roar's 25, and only lasts as long as you are inside it. You have 3 downsides over roar.
#1 30 meter vs 50. #2 Have to stay within range for total eclipse #3 takes up a mod slot. Increasing the duration of eclipse like with narrow minded. is going to have a more negative impact then it would on roar. 

... Okay, so you are doubling the ranges off the bat. Interesting approach. As to number two, I would argue that to be a trade-off as opposed to a downside, as you have to be within range of Roar at the moment of casting to receive the buff and, as the ability isn't recastable (unless you run the augment), this can leave you without the buff for up to (if not over) a minute. Your third point (specifically regarding [Narrow Minded]) is just straight correct though. Changing the ranges from 15/25 to 5.1/8.5. Of course, [Piercing Roar] would alter that back up to 18.5 meters, which is a massive difference in Range, which makes it very worth the mod slot, unlike in the case of [Total Eclipse].

31 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

You aren't aware of anything. If this was something you had any grasp of. You'd realize that a buff extending to 3 other teammates is stronger then a 15% increase to your own weapon damage. 

I know you are completely unaware because while Eclipse and Roar are the same tool for different jobs. Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff. Its job is to boost frames focused on both abilities and weapon damage. 

Eclipse is specialized. Its the Master of One opposed to the Jack of all trades nature of Roar

Again, insulting (though not actually an insult, so progress). We are, as I've stated before, simply in disagreement over how powerful Eclipse should be in comparison to Roar. You want it to be, hands down, the better weapon buff, and at a rate that it compensates for the damage Roar provides to abilities (for some reason). I understood this quite a while ago, and your remarks on Master-v-Jack was my understanding of what you wanted.

"Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff" ... well, no, but also yes. It was designed back before damage buffs were really a thing. That's why it's coded as Faction Damage, because old DE loved to tie systems together to make the game function through the spaghetti code. But, even if that were false, the fact that Roar pre-dates Eclipse quite significantly. Regardless, it has become the Jack-of-all-Trades Damage Buff, so let's roll with that.

51 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

4 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Honestly, I would argue more that Eclipse should have the effect of it's augment become integrated to it's kit, with the augment shifting to function more like [Everlasting Ward], but that's irrelevant to this discussion.

Nope! Mirage isn't a support frame. She's a frame that specializes in crowd control or damage. Her augment should stay an augment. I'd prefer if Total Eclipse was changed to give allies the full duration of the buff when they are in range. 

True! Mirage isn't a support frame. I mean, she has CC viability, a damage buff and damage reduction buff, a nuke ability, and another damage enhancer, but she is not a support frame. Do you know who else isn't technically a support frame? Chroma. He's a DPS frame. Two of his abilities (Elemental Ward and Vex Armor) both function the way that [Total Eclipse] does.

What I find funny is that you disagree with me ... only to agree with me. Because your proposed change to [Total Eclipse] would have it functioning exactly the way that [Everlasting Ward] does, which was my suggestion. Funny how that works. Oh, but I'm sure you knew that. After all, your very careful with your words, and have immaculate understanding of these topics.

53 minutes ago, HeavyFarms said:

And you finally figured out what frames want roar. I quite enjoyed doing the math on Miasma and found out that it fit perfectly to my suggestion of 90% damage on eclipse. 

But Roar just helps Saryn out from spores, to Miasma.  

I've always known what frames what Roar. You, however, don't seem to know which frames want Eclipse, as you keep trying to tie its damage output potential to match the output potential of a Roar boosted ability, though I could be mistaken. But speaking of your Miasma math could I have a breakdown, because I'm not entirely sure how you got those numbers. This might be a lack of understanding on my part (which would probably account for a large part of the misunderstandings we seem to be having), so it would be greatly appreciated.

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

You should be telling yourself this not me. 

Cause Eclipse isn't even winning at the individual level. Most Warframes have an equivlent of their own Miasma that makes Roar the better choice

It depends on how you choose to build the frame. My Roar-Saryn, for example, has it subsumed in place of Miasma. Is this the most optimal for the meta? Probably not. Do I enjoy the build far more? Absolutely. And to me, when I am playing a game, my own enjoyment has a far higher value than straight statistical performance potential.

But yes, with their current values (equal at 30%), Eclipse is only better at weapon damage when modded for faction damage and you disregard DoT damage. Thus, you know, the entire post chain regarding the incorrect values.

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

If you are trying to convince me that 90% Eclipse isn't the way to go, this isn't how you do it. Considering This isn't factoring what Roar would do to warframe abilities, This is what I'd expect the buff from a single ability to do well, instead of a jack of all trades ability. 

You counter your own argument far better then you could ever argue.

Well no, you have proven that you aren't willing to listen to any argument I make. I have mentioned before that my intent with the numbers I proposed was to let Roar remain stronger in regards to DoT damage at higher power strengths. We are arguing for two different results. However, let's shift entirely to your idea of Eclipse completely outdoing Roar when it comes to weapon damage, because you certainly aren't going to adopt what you see as an incorrect interpretation (DE claimed that they wanted the pick rate of Eclipse to go down after all, and your proposal doesn't really achieve that).

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

Unfortunately for you, I understand your point. That's the problem. That's why you are getting called out. Cause you don't actually think past surface level.

No, your "understanding" of my point is the surface level. You disagree with the intent behind my numbers, and that's okay. You seem to be looking at this as if these are the only two abilities that need to be balanced around each other, and that they both need to be better at something. Maybe this is true. But half the subsume abilities don't get used unless someone has a specific need for it. Roar fits the "I need a damage increase", and is on an early-game frame. Eclipse is hidden behind a quest (or the Circuit I suppose), and is only good for weapon damage. Having it always be better than Roar is, in my opinion, not the way the ability should be altered. If you can find the math that has the damage and DoT be better when paired with a Faction Mod, but not better when lacking it, then I will agree with that value. Eclipse should have the potential to be better when built correctly. It is a weapon buffing ability, so it makes sense that the weapon should be built to maximise that. After all, it's not the plug-and-play, jack-of-all-trades ability that Roar is.

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

You solely look at weapon damage and go "Eclipse should be 50% (15%) stronger than roar. "45% is fine" Except Mirage is 200% compared to Rhino's 50%. Your logic doesn't make sense compared to the source frames, If Eclipse was say... 75% Multiplicative Bonus then your logic would have at least some kind of precedent? Cause right now 45% is just a number you pulled out of your opinion, that you like the math of. There's no actual logic behind your choice of that number

No, I didn't pull it out of nowhere. I started at 50%, then realised it outscaled too well. In retrospect, that may have been hasty (I didn't do comprehensive, inclusive math, and only did some surface level math), but my initial idea was a sweet spot of 50-60%. But yes, I suppose that the diminished value lacks the general logic in comparison to the source values. By that logic, 50% would be far better (being a 75% reduction instead of a 77.5% reduction).

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

Since you struggle with any concept of logic, I'll give you an example. Its called "Standard." De used Roar's 30% and used it as the standard to adjust eclipse. There's at least some logic there, even if doesn't make any sense nerfing a specific single person buff to 15% of its original value compared to a team wide omni buff.

Again with the insults. Here's the thing with a "Standard". They are based on a "Precedent", and those get created. There was no diminished helminth abilities until there were. There was no 85% reduction either, but now there is. That's kind of the point. They aren't based on a "Standard", but on a semblance (true or otherwise) of "Balance".

1 hour ago, HeavyFarms said:

Normal Eclipse and Normal Roar are fine. They are the stanadard. Roar in helminth is weakened by 60%. Logically, nerfing any similar ability past that 60% is going to negatively break that standard. I applied the standard to Eclipse at 150% and got the result of 90%. (If you want to make the argument for 120% instead, be my guest.) My 90% was a compromise between what it was, (150%) and the utterly useless 30% that it is now. 

90% is also the median between 30% and 150%. Exactly in between the two. It doesn't lose 77% to 66% of its power compared to how roar loses 40%. Like if any semblence of logic actually fit in your brain you'd go. "Hmm. Maybe Eclipse being 22% of its original power is too low.

Yes. The source abilities are fine. The reason they went beyond 60% for Eclipse was because of the values themselves (50% v 200%). The 60% reduction to "match" the diminishing of Roar would still leave it at 120% (which they for some reason think is four times stronger than Roar, which we know it just isn't due to how they function, but whatever).

Applying the diminish of 60% to the already diminished value seems poor (that's actually a 65% diminish technically), but averaging the two values as a compromise is a fair enough reason. And honestly, once I did the math at 45%, I didn't really factor in the diminish percentage, 85% was bad enough that I didn't really care honestly. If the perfect "balance" had it at 63.134532% or something, then so be it. After all, this is all just theoretical anyway.

And again, insults? Really? Is that the only way you know of that allows you to convey your opinion and perspective?

 

[TriadHero117]

On 2024-03-26 at 11:59 AM, HeavyFarms said:

Ember asks "What alternatives?" (I've tried running Ember without it, and her kit is too flawed to work without the energy boost.) 

You're not wrong, it does feel a bit bad for frames for whom Nourish is their saving grace.

However, it's not just those frames that previously felt obliged to subsume nourish. Take a frame like Kullevero, whose base kit is workable. In theory, they should have some flexibility in their subsume options; Shock for enabling Melee Influence, Warcry for stacking melee buffs, or even more gimmicky stuff. Thing is, not using nourish felt like hamstringing yourself. There's basically only 1 situation where nourish is meaningfully worse than an alternative, and that's when using Melee influence. 

A single ability shouldn't do multiple things better than the individual alternatives at once. 

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-03-28 at 4:28 PM, TriadHero117 said:

A single ability shouldn't do multiple things better than the individual alternatives at once. 

Then buff or provide alternate options. 

Gyre had an energy replenshing ability. There was one tool for the job, and they nerfed the one tool instead of providing any other options. 

Honestly, Zenurik's old passive of becoming a permanent energy gain should make a reappearance. Just to have more build diversity if they dont add any other options.

[Kryztoval]

En 13/3/2024 a las 16:52, ChossetteDivine dijo:

The elephant in the room: Eclipse. Nerf? Okay, rending it useless? No

It was already useless. Eclipse did not work at all in the newest tileset - whispers in the walls. And now the newest nerfed eclipse does not work on Exodia contagion projectiles. So even while on mirage, with 644% eclipse bonus, a single shot of an exodia contagion zaw will do 7k damage. That is the base damage of the weapon. So, I will say it again, Rending it useless? Yes. As it currently is, it is useless.

 

Edit: It does work on zaw, it is just that the Tusk Thumper Doma seems to have had its armor and health increased. If I had to guess I would say by around 20%. Adding this to the nerf on eclipse it makes it really underwhelming.

Edited March 30 by Kryztoval
Small correction.

[HeavyFarms]

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

This seems to be something we both believe true of the other.

What you believe or think is irrelevant. You don't have reasoning behind your thoughts, only they substanceless thoughts alone. 

Like I said, nobody is going to use total eclipse for a 30% weapon damage buff. You think anyone is going to sacrifice a mod slot for total eclipse to buff their team for 45%? 90% is the only way that ability is going to have any kind of use. 

But you can't admit you are wrong. Eclipse could be buffed to 45%, its usage could be basically 0 and with nobody using it, would you have the honesty to admit you are wrong? 

We both know the answer is no. 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

Still seems a bit excessive to devolve into insults

I call a spade a spade. 

Act like a spade, look like a spade, get called a spade. Its really not all that surprising. 

Cause and effect. Do I have to explain everything to you? 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

but perhaps that's simply my lacking of understanding as to "brevity" being the source of wit

The quote is "Brevity is the soul of wit." 

Intelligence lets you explain something simply. It also lets you get basic facts right, without being corrected constantly.

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

... Okay, so you are doubling the ranges off the bat.

That's the total distance the abilities reach. 15 meter radius is how much in diamter? 15x2 =? I guess I have to take back what I said about you understand math. 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

My question would then have to be "why would you sacrifice that mod".

Because #1 You said losing a mod slot wasn't "That much of a trade off". This is incorrect. Mods are the backbone to 90% of the games power.

Because your statement is false, I am pointing it out to you, at your displeasure. #2 Total Eclipse was worth that sacrifice at one point.  Again, you only think of things in a solo player perspective. As you saw from Roar, a team wide buff gives better overall results then a pure selfish mindset. 

On Mirage, you could very easily take a small hit to your personal damage, to the overall benefit of the whole team. And as I keep repeating myself, there's simply not enough of a positive trade off.

Would you pick 15% more weapon damage, over losing 30% ability damage? The answer is no. That's why your suggestion of 45% weapon damage is so pathetically meager, nobody would ever run it. 

30% on an Ash is 600 true damage on bladestorm plus bleed procs. 30% on Saryn is an extra 1k Miasma? 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

We are, as I've stated before, simply in disagreement over how powerful Eclipse should be in comparison to Roar. You want it to be, hands down, the better weapon buff,

Yup. Because that's the entire point of the ability. There's a reason why normal Eclipse scales better on weapons than Roar. To be hands down the better weapon buff. But wait, that wasn't enough was it? Normal Mirage does more than just scale better than Rhino. Its a numerically 4x increase over Rhino roar. 

So wait? Not only does the normal ability scale better, but it does so by 150% more? Its almost like just scaling eclipse better wasnt enough. 

If you had any grasp of logic, any vague concept of it; your argument against helminth eclipse would make sense in context of normal mirage vs rhino. 

You aren't witty enough to make an argument that makes sense.

If you have two doctors, one being a general practitioner, the other being a very specialized surgeon, the surgeon is going to exceed 2-3x the ability of the general doctor in his specialized area. 

And Rhino is designed as a jack of all trades frame. 2 of Mirage's ability specifically built around weapon damage. Its clearly buit as a focus for her. That's her specialty. You can build her to specialize in CC with her other abilities, or you can make something with explosive ledgerman, but half of her kit revolves around getting the most of her weapons. 

Rhino has 1 movement ability. 1 tank ability. 1 support ability. 1 CC ability. 

Rhino is jack of all trades. Mirage is the master of one. 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

True! Mirage isn't a support frame. 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

"Roar was always designed to be one size fits all buff" ... well, no, but also yes. 

Let me fix that for you. What you should have said was "Yes, and you're right."

But you can't suprass your own ego. 

Rhino Roar always buffed weapons and abilities. So as Rhino got updated, they kept his roar as the jack of all trades ability. When Mirage was made, they specifically built her buff to be stronger, different, and hands down the better weapon buff ability. 

Strange how that works. 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

Miasma math could I have a breakdown, because I'm not entirely sure how you got those numbers.

Its really simple. 

Miasma does 600 damage a second with spores. It lasts 6 seconds. 3,600 damage. Roar at 30% increases that to 780. 4,680 damage. That's a damage increase of 1,080. Not including Spores. (Although I should include spores, because 30% more damage on your ability that grows stronger over time. 
 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

It depends on how you choose to build the frame. My Roar-Saryn, for example, has it subsumed in place of Miasma. Is this the most optimal for the meta? Probably not. Do I enjoy the build far more? Absolutely. And to me, when I am playing a game, my own enjoyment has a far higher value than straight statistical performance potential.

Which is why you don't belong here. 

Great. Play however you want. But realize that how you play, isn't how others play. People aren't going to enjoy or notice an ability unless it is significant. So while you enjoy how you play, let others enjoy how they play. 

Cause nobody is enjoying eclipse right now. Nobody would enjoy it even with your suggestion. An extra 15% is going to be a drop of water in a desert. 

On 2024-03-28 at 10:33 AM, MarakViri said:

Well no, you have proven that you aren't willing to listen to any argument I make.

Because you haven't made a good argument yet. 

Like I said, Roar is a weapon damage buff, an ability buff, a companion buff and a team aoe buff. 

Even if you just run weapons and abilities, +15% weapon damage over roar isn't worth losing 30% ability damage.   Let alone companion or team damage. 

+30% weapon damage more than roar for losing 30% ability damage is just cutting even. 30% up for 30% down. Most corrupted mods outside fleeting expertise give you a more enticing trade off. A bigger upside for the downside. 

+60% weapon damage more than roar (My beloved 90%) is the only value I'd go "It's worth running this instead of roar." 

I'd rather just go Mirage at this point. Toss any other helminth onto her if I wanted eclipse, cause I'd honestly just prefer a full refund on my resources and warframe I put into helminth.