Dante Unbound - Dev Workshop: General Quality of Life

[Mirki]

Thanks for clarifying on the state of Prism, as it was let completely unknown for the longest time, however you still havent specified what will change on Sleight of Hands regarding the Light/Dark Effect it has.

Im going to, again, criticize the Balancing mentality that has been taken regarding Eclipse (Helminth version), as it is wrong to try and make a comparison with Roar, just like it was wrong to try and make a Comparison with Vex Armor in the first iteration, all 3 Abilities are completely different and work in completely different ways for different purposes, just making all the numbers the same across them doesnt work, all it achieves to set it's Buff to the same number as Roar is to make it worse than it

I know it is an optionally 2 Part Ability that has Damage Reduction on the other side, but it doesnt make up for it at 75% and it wont make up for if it was 90% either because the Ability has always been chosen for Damage with so many other ways to complement defense (and better than 75% DR) it will not start being picked because it's optionally 75% DR

Edited March 14 by Mirki

[Darazio]

Is Caliban still getting a buff in this update? Steve and Reb has mentioned it on the previous 15 min stream. Was wondering is it still happening?

[Tiltskillet]

39 minutes ago, Taloh said:

It would be nice if either the duration of Gara's passive scaled with Duration or it exposed finishers.

10 seconds is pretty long, although maybe the chance could be structured differently.  Also it already opens up finishers.  Hopefully it's not losing that capability. 

Also blinds eximus, last I checked.   Which I'll definitely be retesting once this goes live.

 

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, Darazio said:

Is Caliban still getting a buff in this update? Steve and Reb has mentioned it on the previous 15 min stream. Was wondering is it still happening?

I still don't understand that comment.  It sounded like Reb said "That's part of GDC with Steve" if I didn't mishear.  Why would Steve have anything to do with a Caliban announcement?  Why would they do that at GDC?   Did Reb think the chat question (which Steve read) was about something else entirely? 

Anyway, GDC is happening next week and there are some DE people doing a session there, so...

It's probably nothing though.

[Aerikx]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

Subsumed Eclipse having its dmg resist capped at 75% is a miss for me.

 

Makes it not worth the subsume.

 

I'd rather have the damage portion completely removed and buff the dmg resist up to 90%.

 

We have damage helminth options already.

Hell, we have enough damage without buffs already. 

We don't need more damage.

 

What we don't have is a worthwhile survivability option.

Open up the roster.

Agreed. 

Powerful Damage Reduction Helminth abilities would possibly cause lesser played Frames to rise up/get back in the field. 

As currently, many squishy Frames ultimately end up getting phased out because they pop like water balloons in high level content. 

I'd love if Eclipse was a 90% DR (and if Gara's Subsume was just the DR aspect of Splinter Storm as well).

[iPathos]

2 hours ago, Eternal_Phenix_Prime said:

TBH it's horrible for casual gara players who mainly use her only for mass vitrify as a defensive tool, especially if using Blind rage. Such a play style is quite stingy on ability casts, to the point were this change would make gara's passive almost non existent

Gara's passive doesn't have the same issue as mirage. For mirage you have to proactively manage where you were standing in order to get the desired buff & the maximum % bonus. For gara it's simply a question of moving around and it will proc on it's own as you navigate the map and the lighting conditions slightly change. You aren't trying to reliably maintain anything, there isn't a magic perma radial blind that you're trying to maintain. It's just a nice perk that would randomly proc, and this change effectively means it will never proc for certain play styles.

I can kinda get where this is coming from, but the reverse is also true. Unreliable procs in some tilesets now become consistent by a known set of actions, you *will* get a blind within a few casts, just sometimes it'll be sooner than later.

In one way it's nice because it encourages using her kit in a more interactive manner, but I can see the detriment to a singular Mass Vitrify build. Either way, that change is its own thing.

My primary concern in that post is definitely around Eclipse, because the "balancing" done to the Helminth version is no balancing at all.

[El_Croto]

hace 9 horas, [DE]Megan dijo:

Helminth Diminished Effectiveness Change: 

Eclipse has been one of the most popular Helminth abilities, so by fixing its unreliability related to light sources and making its buffs guaranteed, a rebalance was in order to compensate. This change does not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from Helminth.

 

• Solar Eclipse has a base 30% increased Weapon Damage.

  • This was previously 150%, it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar.

• Lunar Eclipse has not changed. It still provides a base 75% Damage Reduction.

  • The Damage Reduction cap also remains the same at 75%. 

Nice, you killed Eclipse, one good helminth less i guess.

Thats no even close to rhino's roar, roar it's usually used for procs, where it multiplies itself giving a much higher buff than 30%.

Lets say we swap eclipse in every buld with roar now, so just you nerf roar next update bc everyone will be using roar for damage bc eclipse it's dead.

At least keep the dmg reduction cap at 90% like in mirage, so it's worth for something, but you're not going to, bc you hate health-tanking but for some reason are ok with the idea of revenant being inmortal just because.

 

[Sojufueled]

9 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Huge change, thank you so much for doing this.

Good news for the hearing impaired, and people listening to Perun talk for an hour about defense economics in the background.

[KamuiHyuga]

4 hours ago, DTaina said:

I've been saying this for years!  His snow globes can be such a detriment to the squad.  I've lost count of the number of times I've had squad members complaining about them even when I go out of my way to pop them.  Giving allies the ability to shoot through his snow globe from the outside would be a much-needed QoL update for poor Frost.  

Also, for a future upgrade, I'd love to be able to move the snow globe like the Eximus can.  

If I got the chance to rework Snow Globe and only Snow Globe, in addition to the shooting through bit, here's how I'd do it.  If no SG present, tapping spawns a small globe that begins expanding, which works similar to Gara's 4, either stopping once it reaches a max range, or you tap the button again to stop it.  If inside a SG, tapping simply reinforces its HP as currently.  If outside a SG, holding warps the oldest SG to your location, while if inside a SG, holding shatters the current SG with all the effects from currently blasting it with Frost's 1.

[tech-boy]

de the change to nourish and eclipse for the helminth ver of them wont help your problem. first of the reasons why people use nourish is offer lot of stuff but main for better energy a better for all frame. a better well to go about balance this wood to give the player more opinion to use because as stand right now  most of helminth are not use because they pointless to use. they ether a helminth ability that just better then other ones for that fill that goal player need a new ability for without it  string upgrade other other helminth ability. for example we have multiple group ability but each are use be offer different use case like do wanna rage group enemy or do wanna them be group while stand up is you have opinions. but for other helminth ability they own hand fully that are actual good like we have multiple armor strip ability but dont see people use most of them because they ether need augment on top of ability slot to armor strip or have to many limits on actual get armor strip to work like line of slight check or only last for duration. while some ability that not dont need augment slot to armor strip but also dont need duration and maybe strip shield or give other benefit like healing and so on. we so many helminth ability that never get use because they just not reasons to use or are too weak to do use on other frame or just  straight up useless for most player unless they joke around like loki decoy no really use that ability much and do use they use for one augment to give them extra life if they keep it alive that is. the change to nourish wont make a different because everything give player it still go best in class because give warframe with channeling ability a way to gain energy back easy while also boost they channeling ability damage if weapon one like mesa peacemakers. even still reasons why i use to is to fix energy problem on build with blind rage on them to actual let use abilliy with run out all time. if really wanna make sure nourish and other helminth ability dont become best in slot you will need give play more actual useful and powerful  helminth ability while also give more opinion for player to get energy back is right most people use nourish is a  arcane energize because it ether too cost to own max out one or because they better arcane to use  it also dont help any time player find good replace for they energy regen problem like emergence dissipate you nerf to much to point no one use them any more is they are better opinions. on top that nourish give viral damage the best status effect in warframe right now and some build use nourish just for that so other make sure people dont use nourish for that will be to give player more opinion to get viral damage like how did with new radiation mods. right now de you just nerf everything play joy because to strong even though say you go embrace power fantasy. you should also not just look at how many frame have this helminth ability and think to nerf because be use to much but should look at build they part to understand while people use so much and active solve the root of the problem and vs just slap on band fix of real problem that make your player base upset or unhappy over changes. is not ever has same reasons why they use and some people are just slap on think it best in slot on ever build wind that just not case some build really dont need energy that nourish give them but wood be better off with diff ability they just dont that case or dont care  everyone has only of player after all. now for eclipse changes you physically made it useless and worst in slot because nerf you give it not only do 30% like roar make no sense because roar actual far strong for dots is deal double damage it normal give rough around 60% increase damage with base strength but also has apply to allies without augment. then they damage resist nerf you gave it with make function useless as opinion is ether 90% or you go home in warframe sadly at less in my experience is your they one shot by enemy or you can take few hit at less wind come steel path above. and just damage resist alone if left alone that be give 90% if you give your frame enough strength and duration to keep it up wood actual make actual opinion to choose between the only tiny handy full of actual useful helminth ability that we have is we dont have many that give dr and one we do have are petty bad for dr my talk about nova 1 here. this wood have made some frame active useable in high level stuff like banshee with them get 1 shot by enemy if they dont have shield let actual take few hits be for go down at less for people who need it is ever how own play style and own skill level some people dont even need mods to keep alive they do that with them self with any ability or mods help stay alive in high level content. again i feel your main power with why nourish on top is because we 1 leak diff opinion that nourish give of use and 2 mostly of helminth ability we do have are useless or outclass by other ones best fix this wood actual to not nerf nourish but instead buff weaker helminth ability and warframe helminth ability to actual be useful for like let empowerment scale off power strength boost strength it give you for other ability or let increase  Energized Munitions effect maybe reduce it to 50% or some so need work for 100% ammo effective and so on. or active make master summon actual do some more useful then to just heal, revive, and teleport pet is stand now with pet ai not worth it is pet are not smart tool in the shed. or for warframe helminth ability actual make useful with need augment like is they lot warframe helminth ability that are actual useless with augment  to put on your frame and did say wind first make this system that you where go actual make ever warframe ability useful so they no bad ability that just free slot for a helminth ability.

ps my sorry if hard to read or hard to understand my not the best at English or grammar i try best to clean make is readable is possible so sorry if hard to read and that a lot to read i didnt no how to make it less with get my point arcoss

[NinjaMaster231456]

The amount of whining in this thread is insane. Both Nourish and Eclipse are going to be perfectly fine.

Eclipse is now equal to roar but it is a final damage multiplier where Roar is counts as a faction damage mod. That means if you have a bane on the weapon you’re using Eclipse will be better and Roar will be better if you don’t. Eclipse is also cheaper to cast than Roar but can’t affect teammates.

Nourish is fine with a 1.6x energy multiplier and will still be a massive aid with energy sustain. Honestly I kinda prefer the reduced viral damage as it doesn’t screw with my status distribution as much but to each their own.

[GrumpyPants]

Eclipse being the same strength as roar does not make it strictly worse, as many here are trying to imply. Eclipse costs only 25 energy, where roar costs 75. Eclipse can also be recast, where roar requires you to wait until the buff expires. Finally, eclipse buff is multiplicative with faction mods, while roar is additive. The only things roar has going over eclipse for weapon damage is a slightly longer duration, the ability to buff your allies (without an augment) and double dipping on status procs. This last one is the main thing that might cause roar to result in more damage on some builds, but eclipse will result in more damage on builds using faction mods that don't rely on procs. Builds not relying on procs or faction mods will see the same damage increase, but eclipse is cheaper to cast. Maybe we can't do the same amounts of stupid damage as present, but we really don't need to be. I will still be using eclipse on some builds over roar because of the energy cost and ability to recast.

[(XBOX)BlondeRebellion]

I have a question in regards to the Omnia fissures. More variety in scenery and mission types is obviously a great thing, but what's the incentive to do this other than a change of pace?

If I'm popping a Neo for something specific I'm naturally going to want to run with other Neos to maximise my chances of seeing the reward I'm chasing. So is the only point the area/node-specific resources in addition to the relic rewards, sort of a double dip scenario? Whether you're chasing a prime part or farming resources it sort of stunts your efficiency in one or the other due to the split focus.

Myself and likely a lot of people are at a point where those resources aren't needed since that content has been out for a long time, it would be cool to see something extra like higher base void trace drops or a guaranteed ducat upon completion (similar to SP fissure purpose logic).

[Morslod]

1 hour ago, GrumpyPants said:

Eclipse being the same strength as roar does not make it strictly worse, as many here are trying to imply. Eclipse costs only 25 energy, where roar costs 75. Eclipse can also be recast, where roar requires you to wait until the buff expires. Finally, eclipse buff is multiplicative with faction mods, while roar is additive. The only things roar has going over eclipse for weapon damage is a slightly longer duration, the ability to buff your allies (without an augment) and double dipping on status procs. This last one is the main thing that might cause roar to result in more damage on some builds, but eclipse will result in more damage on builds using faction mods that don't rely on procs. Builds not relying on procs or faction mods will see the same damage increase, but eclipse is cheaper to cast. Maybe we can't do the same amounts of stupid damage as present, but we really don't need to be. I will still be using eclipse on some builds over roar because of the energy cost and ability to recast.

I am very confused about Eclipse then. Dev Stream #177 said that Eclipse would be additive to mods like Serration, no longer multiplicative (unless I heard that wrong or got confused). So has that changed since the Dev Stream? Because I think it is additive like a mod, not a multiplier to faction or anything else?  Did I miss something?

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Morslod said:

I am very confused about Eclipse then. Dev Stream #177 said that Eclipse would be additive to mods like Serration, no longer multiplicative (unless I heard that wrong or got confused). So has that changed since the Dev Stream? Because I think it is additive like a mod, not a multiplier to faction or anything else?  Did I miss something?

Yeah, they changed course on that, though it would have been good to have spelled it out here.

 

[Skynet66]

I appreciate some of the QoL changes though not wish Omnia came to disruption tilesets.

The Eclipse nerf as a whole was unwarranted. Currently as it stands, Mirage on her own is not a very strong Warframe when considering survivability , so the damage reduction being decreased is bizarre. 90% from 95% is a lot, and comparing it to other frames who have larger HP/ Armor rating is not a very fair picture. Her damage buff did not need to be decreased. I don't understand the need to nerf her after fixing an issue created by GI lighting, if anything it should be a bug fix and not a back handed nerf. If you'll nerf her subsume, okay, but nerfing mirage herself too is unnecessary. As for the subsume version, gutting it to 30% is absurd and you need to reconsider, as another commenter said, roar's subsume is 3/5th of the regular's strength. Going from 150% to 30% is not a 3/5th but an insane 1/5th the power. 80%!

As for Nourish, I don't believe in the nerfs to the viral are necessarily horrible, but the energy multiplier is definitely a kick to the gut to alot of frames. It won't be entirely replaced but going from 2x to 1.6x is a huge step down, 1.8-1.75 is a better in-between as it is enough of a nerf that builds without high strength won't get to benefit as much.

Minor sidenote: why are you nerfing Mirage herself but not Grendel despite nerfing both their Helminth abilities? It's a bit of a weird double standard that is frustrating because you're nerfing a frame because you finally fixed a buggy lighting system. Don't nerf mirage at all, just nerf the eclipse on Helminth only.

 

[Morslod]

9 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, they changed course on that, though it would have been good to have spelled it out here.

 

So much to read and I missed that, thank you for pasting it in.

So the effect is a 40%-ish reduction from what it was. I never use faction mods, but I can see that it may be helpful for people that do (and maybe I should be...). I guess you could argue that you were never supposed to get 100% of the bonus all the time with the light mechanic, so the real reduction is less than 40%? 

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, Morslod said:

 I guess you could argue that you were never supposed to get 100% of the bonus all the time with the light mechanic, so the real reduction is less than 40%? 

Certainly.  Although a fair amount of people are using it in such a way as to get the full bonus, regardless of light.

[Eternal_Phenix_Prime]

4 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

it has the issue that it dosn't work at all in the new lighting system same as mirage.

first idk why it has to be a radial blind, second why can't it just be a 10% on taking damage to blind that one enemy ?

but maybe it will be ok and promote a more cheap spammy subsume playstyle

No? It procs like crazy with the new system. I legit don't remember ever seeing it proc on the old system (unless they just buffed the proc rate on the prime). If anything since new lighting system is broken it procs more than intended.

Well it's not like this change is going to make Gara the only frame with a basically non existent passive; --cough--Rhino--cough, cough--Qorvex, titania --cough--

It just feels really sucky since I quite recently used her passive to great effect while doing Grendel's defense mission (like 5-6 radial blinds between recasting mass vitrify) and just casting shattered leash before recasting mass vitrify was pushing it energy wise.

Edited March 14 by Eternal_Phenix_Prime

[DrivaMain]

Why is Albrecht's Lab Mirror Defense not included in this list? Right now, that game mode is one and done. Adding it to the list will add replayability. 

Will these Omnia Fissures be extended to Void Storms as well when you touch Railjack again? It would be great if Veil Proxima would become Omnia Fissure regions.

[Toritte]

12 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Viral Damage Buff has been reduced from 75% to 45%. 

Technically it is a buff if you really think about it..

It would ease the status control since reduced Viral would reduce status infliction a lot and allows other status to be applied much more like corrosive, heat etc.
Time to try it on Mesa again.

[Gandalf_White]

4 hours ago, GrumpyPants said:

Eclipse being the same strength as roar does not make it strictly worse, as many here are trying to imply. Eclipse costs only 25 energy, where roar costs 75. Eclipse can also be recast, where roar requires you to wait until the buff expires. Finally, eclipse buff is multiplicative with faction mods, while roar is additive. The only things roar has going over eclipse for weapon damage is a slightly longer duration, the ability to buff your allies (without an augment) and double dipping on status procs. This last one is the main thing that might cause roar to result in more damage on some builds, but eclipse will result in more damage on builds using faction mods that don't rely on procs. Builds not relying on procs or faction mods will see the same damage increase, but eclipse is cheaper to cast. Maybe we can't do the same amounts of stupid damage as present, but we really don't need to be. I will still be using eclipse on some builds over roar because of the energy cost and ability to recast.

Eclipse only buffs your weapons, nothing else. Roar affects weapons, abilities, DoT and double dipping all while being a buff to the entire team.

This nerf will only cause more people to switch to roar, as eclipse will die and remain an ability used strictly against eidolons or profit taker and nothing else.

Even before the nerf, eclipse's helminth damage was only a bit higher than roar's due to roar being able to just DO MORE

[YNCShadow]

Im actually a bit confuse why some players think 30% is okay for eclipse... A simple example is when we face profit taker, base on 150% eclipse, it allows players reach 600% eclipse when a player's Profit taker build is compltely finished(about 400 power strength), and what happened is players can easily reach the highest eclipse almost every where in Orb Vallis. Even base on all of that, profit taker is still not a easy boss. If we only have 30% eclipse, that means you will only have 120% eclipse, 600%-->120%.

Eidolon and Profit taker are old bosses indeed, but they are still meaningful, as i said before, solo players(and new players), they need more higher build now.

And I strongly agree one point, if DR is why you cant make eclipse more higher, then change it to work like Equinox’s ability, when Mirage use eclipse, tap and hold, but with helminth version, it depend on ur energy color, which players can decide its gonna be DR or increase weapon damage before they start a mission.

Edited March 14 by YNCShadow

[Yeibran]

You did not nerf Eclipse, you literally destroyed the ability, and isn't it suppose to now be an aditive buff instead of multiplicative?, well, this is your average DE take, destroy something people enjoy to "buff" something no one plays (even tho Roar is still a stronger buff most cases thanks to double dipping), so now that everyone is gonna play it since the other choice is straight up trash, you'll end up nerfing the "new alternative" that you guys made.

And I don't know if no one in DE cares about Profit-Taker or Eidolons, but nerfing Eclipse is destroying those two activities, AGAIN, since it's heavily reliant on Eclipse buff to be played rivenless, now that you have destroyed Eclipse, Roar isn't enough to play without rivens, so we all that didn't want to spend 5k plat for a Rubico Riven now are forced, even worst for the Zenith, since it was already reliant on a riven + Eclipse.

[Kylo.]

Pretty good changes.