Dante Unbound - Dev Workshop: General Quality of Life

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, YNCShadow said:

I know, but as you said, that is what we face like 3-4 years before, Warframe need look forward right? And.. im not a speed runner actually, but it just super eaisy for me(and actually most of my friend) to do that with finished profit taker in 1min10, because whisper in the wall gives us more option to pick.

Because i have to trade Prime mod, they are expensive with credit tax, so i really need that much credit.

But still i agree some of ur point, thx for correct my opinion, i only want to show how important eclipse is, it should not be only 30%.

The addition of Helminth (and Eclipse [and other prominent abilities] within Helimth) has eroded team play. I don't think you're regressing by dialing it back. Though, I guess not addressing it for so long has built a playerbase around this powercreep, and maybe I'm a minority now for bringing this up.

The cost of Primed Mods used to mean something when the only reliable Credits farms were Dark Sector nodes, Trials, and using Secura Lecta with Chroma. Over time, the Credits currency has been made a mild inconvenience at best. I farmed 5.8 billion, and while you think that's crazy, if you boil it down to my specific farms, it's actually not a lot of playtime for 3.5 out of the 5.8. More than half my Credits were earned through Profit-Taker, and I see this Eclipse nerf as a mild inconvenience at best.

Everyone also keeps missing the point that Eclipse is the ability of Mirage. There's nothing that entitles the player to that massive damage buff on Volt, Saryn, Wisp, or any other Warframe. If I were to really balance Helminth, I would remove Roar, Xata's Whisper, Nourish and Eclipse for a different ability altogether.

[YNCShadow]

23分钟前 , Voltage 说:

The addition of Helminth (and Eclipse [and other prominent abilities] within Helimth) has eroded team play. I don't think you're regressing by dialing it back. Though, I guess not addressing it for so long has built a playerbase around this powercreep, and maybe I'm a minority now for bringing this up.

The cost of Primed Mods used to mean something when the only reliable Credits farms were Dark Sector nodes, Trials, and using Secura Lecta with Chroma. Over time, the Credits currency has been made a mild inconvenience at best. I farmed 5.8 billion, and while you think that's crazy, if you boil it down to my specific farms, it's actually not a lot of playtime for 3.5 out of the 5.8. More than half my Credits were earned through Profit-Taker, and I see this Eclipse nerf as a mild inconvenience at best.

Everyone also keeps missing the point that Eclipse is the ability of Mirage. There's nothing that entitles the player to that massive damage buff on Volt, Saryn, Wisp, or any other Warframe. If I were to really balance Helminth, I would remove Roar, Xata's Whisper, Nourish and Eclipse for a different ability altogether.

I stongly agree how you said to balance Helminth, but we have to face what is happening now, I also don't want eclipse to be the only choise but indeed DE hasn’t gives us too much choise.

If there is more option, then i will agree its a "mild inconvenience", but no.

Edited March 15 by YNCShadow

[Drachnyn]

I have never been so confidently wrong in a game than when i predicted that rhino's charge would be his helminth ability. Someone at DE however decided that helminth was to be a way to massively increase our power level through a select few helminth abilities.

Edited March 15 by Drachnyn

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, YNCShadow said:

I stongly agree how you said to balance Helminth, but we have to face what is happening now, I also don't want eclipse to be the only choise but indeed DE didnt gives us too much choise.

If there is more option, then i will agree its a "mild inconvenience", but no.

People tend to be very knee-jerk when something comes up, but we all just adapt. I remember when people thought Eidolons would suck because Itzal was nerfed. 

I think the current option is already quite generous, especially for Nourish.

[MarakViri]

On 2024-03-15 at 9:19 PM, YNCShadow said:

For example, if you use volt, volt 3 gives you electric, melee（zaw+Exodia Contagion） gives you Cold, Corrosive, Gas, Radiation, Blast, 3 Physical element. And with diplos, you will have heat, Viral, Magnetic, and you can let your crew use a weapon have toxin.

Oh. On-Call Crew. Right, yeah, that makes sense I suppose.

I still figured it would be easier with the Zenith, especially if you had a riven with <BaseDamage + Element Damage + Element Damage - (Irrelevant Stat)>. Especially if you're running Eclipse for damage multiplication, that should provide enough damage for a full-build Zenith to wipe the pylons from range.

My current setup is the Contagion Zaw (Toxin + Radiation + (Corrosive [Arcane]) + (Contagion), the Tenet Plinx (Magnetic + Heat), and the Zenith (Gas + Cold) with Nourish for Viral. Is there a specific reason as to the (I'm assuming Tenet) Diplos in particular?

I also considered trying Thermal Sunder with [Thermal Transfer], and switching my elements around so that I could run all of them, but can't really do that on Chroma because I need high Duration for it to work, and I can't cancel the buff without losing Vex Armor.

And, hold on one sec ...

On 2024-03-15 at 9:26 PM, Voltage said:

These are acceptable losses.

I'm going to be frank, The Index and Profit-Taker invalidated the Credits  currency, further by Helminth. Heaven forbid you can't just stand infront of Profit-Taker by yourself with an Exodia Contagion macro and blast the shields at a pace only your EE.log can measure accurately.

For Eidolons, their "efficiency" would not be lost, you would just need more than 1-2 players, which was the intent of the mode in the first place. Players were doing 6x3 without Eclipse, Archon Shards, Zariman Arcanes, Zenith, and Focus 2.0 a long time ago.

If you needed to use a Macro for the Profit-Taker, I'm not surprised you find this an acceptable loss. And you aren't entirely wrong about the diminishment of Credits in the game. However, the question was "is this a reasonable loss", to which the answer is an emphatic no. Reducing the effectiveness of an ability by 85% is obscene. To put it into perspective for you, that would be like Roar increasing damage by a staggeringly oppressive 7.5%, or Gloom slowing enemies by, at base 5.25%, or Thermal Sunder (Heat) dealing 135 Damage. Do you understand why people might be upset by this. I remember complaints when they dropped Roar from 50% to 30%, a static loss of 20% (equal to only 40% of it's actual damage) because it's a "huge loss of potential damage". The coming update is going to reduce Eclipse, the only damage multiplier Helminth ability even close to matching Roar, by lowering its damage by a static 170% (for an actual loss of 85%).

That said, if Credits are as defunct as you say (and thus these runs are pointless), why are in favour of further lowering the play-rate? You are basically saying "yeah, it's fine if they remove the only actual competition Roar has as a damage multiplier, because the content it's good for is irrelevant these days". Imagine further nerfing Sonar because "it doesn't work on bosses anyway".

The community accepted that there would be a nerf to the helminth version of Eclipse when the vote happened. The initial response to the proposed nerf was so vehement that DE revised it and amended it to the current proposal, and gave an only partially-accurate reason for it's severely reduced capability. Many of the posts under this topic (and many other topics) are refuting these reasons, and saying that the numbers are too low.

If you disagree, and think the numbers are balanced sufficiently well, then that is one thing. But saying that it is acceptable for it to be such a drastic cut of effectiveness shows a complete lack of respect for the players that play and enjoy the content that you don't, and use the ability, regardless of why. I have Eclipse on, I think, five Config Slots across all of my Warframes. Of those, I use one, and even then only when I'm feeling particularly bored.

I personally don't like the ability all that much as far as Helminth abilities go, but this isn't a change that will "reduce it to a reasonable pick rate", this is a change that will essentially remove it from the selection altogether, as there will be almost no reason to choose it, unless you, for some reason, really want a 75% Damage Reduction ability.

On 2024-03-15 at 9:41 PM, Voltage said:

The addition of Helminth (and Eclipse [and other prominent abilities] within Helimth) has eroded team play. I don't think you're regressing by dialing it back. Though, I guess not addressing it for so long has built a playerbase around this powercreep, and maybe I'm a minority now for bringing this up.

No, you're correct. It has most definitely eroded Team Play, and a consequence of that (and the lack of addressing) has resulted in Player Supported Powercreep. 100% correct. Unfortunately, this is now the state of the game, so we either do what we can with it or lose a chunk of the player base by reverting it.

Especially when the major reason the Helminth was so successful was the lack of upkeep for older frames in regards to new content, and a lack of viability for certain abilities (Aegis Storm for example), and DE's desire to band-aid it in the same way some of the ability augments act as band-aids.

On 2024-03-15 at 9:41 PM, Voltage said:

The cost of Primed Mods used to mean something when the only reliable Credits farms were Dark Sector nodes, Trials, and using Secura Lecta with Chroma. Over time, the Credits currency has been made a mild inconvenience at best. I farmed 5.8 billion, and while you think that's crazy, if you boil it down to my specific farms, it's actually not a lot of playtime for 3.5 out of the 5.8. More than half my Credits were earned through Profit-Taker, and I see this Eclipse nerf as a mild inconvenience at best.

Yes. Unfortunately, you are approaching this from the perspective of someone who has these thousands of hours. I myself am sitting at 1.5k, but most of that is screwing around. Most players don't have an excess of Credits, or Endo, or Platinum. I myself don't farm Credits often (except for recently; been doing Profit-Taker because I'm legitimately finding it fun) and I'm down to around 1m credits already.

Let's look at Nova, and apply this nerf to her. Null Star provides 90% damage reduction, and only to health? Let's drop it to 75%. Antimatter Drop has a 25,000 damage cap? Seems high. Let's reduce that by 85%. 3750 Damage seems fair. Molecular Prime slows enemies by 30%? Nah, now it slows them by 4.5%. Now, I understand this is very disingenuous, but I've already given a Helminth Ability example. 

To you, this change is a "minor inconvenience at best". The only saving grace to it is that the impact to Mirage herself is minimal (even though she kind of needs that 5% DR they're removing).

On 2024-03-15 at 9:41 PM, Voltage said:

veryone also keeps missing the point that Eclipse is the ability of Mirage. There's nothing that entitles the player to that massive damage buff on Volt, Saryn, Wisp, or any other Warframe. If I were to really balance Helminth, I would remove Roar, Xata's Whisper, Nourish and Eclipse for a different ability altogether.

Except there is. It's called the Helminth System. It's something DE implemented when they decided they didn't want to manually balance every frame and have to work hard to keep them balanced with every update, new frame, and new mechanic. It's kind of annoying, but it provides a lot of cusstomization to the gameplay of a frame. Or, it would if the choices were balanced, and people didn't justs follow the meta.

And that's the problem. With the current state of the Helminth, this Eclipse change is not balanced. It is woefully, laughably underpowered in comparison to the exact ability they are trying to power match. Arguments can be made to the contrary, but the majority of damage in this game, especially in the late game, comes from either Abilities or Damage over Time effects. Now, what does Eclipse not boost, as an exclusively self-targeting buffing ability, and what does Roar boost, as a team-wide buffing ability?

If both effects of Eclipse could be active at the same time I might agree to the severely lowered effect of Solar Eclipse as well as the lowered cap of Lunar Eclipse. But the way they are presented does not give that implication, and directly gives the opposite.

Heck, they could add the Disposition System to the Helminth to try to balance the ability picks, and this would be the effect I would expect on a minimum disposition.

Edited March 27 by MarakViri

[YNCShadow]

2024/3/15 PM7点08分 , MarakViri 说:

Oh. On-Call Crew. Right, yeah, that makes sense I suppose.

I still figured it would be easier with the Zenith, especially if you had a riven with <BaseDamage + Element Damage + Element Damage - (Irrelevant Stat)>. Especially if you're running Eclipse for damage multiplication, that should provide enough damage for a full-build Zenith to wipe the pylons from range.

My current setup is the Contagion Zaw (Toxin + Radiation + (Corrosive [Arcane]) + (Contagion), the Tenet Plinx (Magnetic + Heat), and the Zenith (Gas + Cold) with Nourish for Viral. Is there a specific reason as to the (I'm assuming Tenet) Diplos in particular?

I also considered trying Thermal Sunder with [Thermal Transfer], and switching my elements around so that I could run all of them, but can't really do that on Chroma because I need high Duration for it to work, and I can't cancel the buff without losing Vex Armor.

And, hold on one sec ...

Yes especially for those players who played Profit taker less, Zenith is way more easy, But if you use Ogris instead of zenith, you will clean those pylons more faster, you can use mod"Nightwatch Napalm“, it will leave a area damage on the ground, and when the pylons get down few seconds later,It just automatically gets destroyed, this is another reason for why we need eclipse to be more higher, because with out eclipse, Ogris will not have enough damage to do that.

its ok for using Plinx, diplos is a auto gun and it also have 3 Physical elements, which allows you to fast destroy Profit taker's shield( If the elements of the next few shields happen to match exactly those possessed by your Diplos, then you can quickly clear all the shields.）

Edited March 18 by YNCShadow

[MarakViri]

Just now, YNCShadow said:

Yes especially for those players who played Profit taker less, Zenith is way more easy, But if you use Ogris instead of zenith, you will clean those pylons more faster, you can use mod"Nightwatch Napalm“, it will leave a area damage on the ground, and when the pylons get down few seconds later,It just automatically gets destroyed, this is another reason for way we need eclipse to be more higher, because with out eclipse, Ogris will not have enough damage to do that.

its ok for using Plinx, diplos is a auto gun and it also have 3 Physical elements, which allows you to fast destroy Profit taker's shield( If the elements of the next few shields happen to match exactly those possessed by your Diplos, then you can quickly clear all the shields.）

Ah. Ogris' damage fields. That makes sense. I think I prefer the Zenith (especially since I like using Chroma here). I find the Tenet Plinx fine, since I only run it with two elements and it has enough damage (with Vex Armor) to clear the element with less than half the magazine, and my Contagion Zaw one-shots all of it's damage types including the IPS types, so that's not really a concern for me.

[Mayhem-Ivory]

Am 13.3.2024 um 18:57 schrieb [DE]Megan:

Scaling change: 

Since the ability no longer depends on level lighting to determine the buff type, the buffs themselves also no longer scale based on light level. Instead, their previous maximum effect is now the base (affected by Ability Strength): 

• Solar Eclipse now has a base 200% increased Weapon Damage. 

• Lunar Eclipse now has a base 75% Damage Reduction. 

  • We have lowered the Damage Reduction cap to 90% (previously 95%) to bring it in line with other Damage Reduction abilities (Gara’s Splinter Storm, Citrine’s Preserving Shell, etc.).

 

Helminth Diminished Effectiveness Change: 

Eclipse has been one of the most popular Helminth abilities, so by fixing its unreliability related to light sources and making its buffs guaranteed, a rebalance was in order to compensate. This change does not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from Helminth.

 

• Solar Eclipse has a base 30% increased Weapon Damage.

  • This was previously 150%, it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar.

• Lunar Eclipse has not changed. It still provides a base 75% Damage Reduction.

  • The Damage Reduction cap also remains the same at 75%. 

 

You may be asking yourself, why choose to Subsume Eclipse over Roar? 

Roar also affects Abilities and double dips on damage over time. If pure damage is the goal, one would probably choose Roar. Eclipse can switch between defensive and offensive buffs for situational gameplay choices. The idea is they are equal-ish for weapon damage.

 

Lunar Eclipse nerf: While I'm fine with the idea of creating parity between all the different damage reduction effects, putting them all at 90%; you need to keep in mind that this effectively cuts Mirage's shield/health values in half! Perhaps this could be made up for by buffing the amount the enemy accuracy is decreased by (actually knowing the numbers on this would also help!).

 

Solar Eclipse helminth: 30% is simply too low. Roar increases damage exponentially; it will be the better choice unless you use a really strange setup:

• low ability strength
• primed faction mods
• no damage types that have DoT procs

Nobody likes faction mods already. All the most important (most dangerous & most tanky) enemies belong to factions for which there are no faction mods!
This will cause Eclipse to simply be worse than Roar. It needs to be 50%.

 

Lunar Eclipse helminth: Keeping the damage reduction cap at 75% is ridiculous. You already reduced its effectiveness on Mirage to make it fit in with the 90% of all other sources of damage reduction, so make it 90% here as well. It's base amount is even 75% currently - that means you need no ability strength whatsoever. The only other DR ability in the helminth currently is Null Stars - which has a cap of 90%, disregards strength and only requires duration. It would be proper, and open up many new build possibilities, if Eclipse disregarded duration and required a lot of strength - such as by reducing the base value to 40% and increasing the cap to 90%!

"Using Eclipse over Roar - Reasoning": complete nonsense! The possibility of doing multiple things is no benefit; any ability with multiple sub-abilities is only as strong as its strongest part! The Lost is not a good ability - Gaze is! Minelayer is not a good ability - Flechete Orb is! Being able to switch Eclipse between Solar and Lunar is not a reason to reduce the effectiveness of either! Most people are only ever going to use it for 1 of those 2 effects; and they are in fact mutually exclusive. You can't treat Eclipse for "the sum of it's parts", because those parts don't make a sum! This would be different if you could get both effects at the same time, but that not being the case is kind of the point of the ability.

The only right way to handle Eclipse on the helminth is to treat it as two separate abilities. Make the choice between Solar and Lunar affected by energy color, same as how Chromatic Ward and Rest & Rage operate! And then give it proper values of 50% for damage and 40-90% for damage reduction.

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

I'm sorry but, like, do y'all not see the correlation between these 30s-1m Profit Taker runs and the extremely heavy-handed nerf to an already nerfed-for-Helminth ability?

DE clearly isn't targeting some random frames who slapped on Eclipse for funsies; they want to end the extremist runs. Seems to me arguing that the nerf is going to ruin that very thing probably isn't going to be persuasive.

[MarakViri]

55 minutes ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

I'm sorry but, like, do y'all not see the correlation between these 30s-1m Profit Taker runs and the extremely heavy-handed nerf to an already nerfed-for-Helminth ability?

DE clearly isn't targeting some random frames who slapped on Eclipse for funsies; they want to end the extremist runs. Seems to me arguing that the nerf is going to ruin that very thing probably isn't going to be persuasive.

Ah yes, because the Profit-Taker being completed so quickly is the problem. Yes. In a game where Credits are only a bottleneck when you've done dedicated farms to things. Have they reduced the Endo drops from the Arena game modes? I can't see that in any of the patch notes. Oh, are they cancelling the Umbra + Phantasma Solo Index Exploit? No? Odd. That's so much better for credits, and encourages a lack of gameplay. Are they nerfing Octavia to prevent the 24+ hour Survival runs? Also no ... how strange.

It's almost like DE doesn't particularly care when people optimise runs, so long as they have player interaction. You know what they would do if this was their goal? Add Damage Attenuation, since that's the go-to for boss and pseudo-boss entities these days. That provides a minimum time for the run, reduces the need for Helminth abuse against the boss, AND encourages somewhat interactive gameplay (unlike casting Strangledome in a chokepoint and then spamming Whipclaw).

Also, while I don't do it (preferring the casual 1-3 minute run range, or even a chill 5 minute run as Chroma), I can do it solo in less than a minute (as long as I don't get Electricity as a damage type). Yeah, I don't even need to recast any abilities, just cast, fight, kill, extract. Eclipse isn't the only way to do it. It's just the most available. If the problem was the speed of Profit-Taker, then this is not the solution.

If the problem is the overuse of Eclipse in all facets of the game due to levels providing maximum lighting, I could see that. But the place where you would need this buff the most is The Fragmented One, and guess what the light level there is. Did you guess "dark enough that you get the Lunar Eclipse buff"? Because you'd be right. The place where the ability would be the most useful in it's current state, it doesn't work. Roar does though. Boosts the ability damage too.

You don't seem to be understanding one very simple fact; if Roar and Eclipse both provide 30% Damage, and all you care about is damage and/or you don't need a temporary 75% DR, nobody will use Eclipse. Altering the game to functionally remove an ability from the Helminth is not striking a balance, it's just increasing the overuse of Roar (which is ALREADY more used than Eclipse).

The Nourish nerf makes sense and is well balanced, that's why it's getting significantly less backlash, with almost all of it being people who don't understand the impact of the nerf, or are annoyed that some carefully constructed builds are now no longer perfectly tuned due to the value changes. Heck, two of my Nourish based builds will need to be reworked to have the values I need them to have for my gameplay loop.

But, does it actually bother me? No. It's, as stated by someone about this change, an annoyance at most. I've suspected Nourish would be nerfed for months, because of how good it was. The values they've listed were well within an acceptable range, and balance the ability significantly better. Eclipse does not do that. While I expected the DR to remain unchanged (even though it should be increased), the reduction to it's Damage Buff is so far below the acceptable threshold that it's legitimately insulting to have them call it "balanced", especially by saying it's the "equivalent to Roar" when that is blatantly false.

That's like saying that the Stug is as good as the Epitaph because they both have a chance at applying status in an area, or that Viral and Magnetic are equally viable as DPS increasing status effects, because they can both increase your damage by 325% against something. Just because the numbers are the same doesn't mean the effect is the same, especially when they function differently.

With both Roar and Eclipse at 30%, and the general lack of Faction Mods on builds, there will be no instance in which the latter is better than the former. The only time that is ever not true is on a weapon that cannot apply any DoT effects, and have a Faction Mod equipped. That is the only situation in which Eclipse will result in more damage than Roar. And using the "but it also offers DR" is a lie, because it is one or the other. The offensive effect has to be viable, or everyone will use the defensive effect. If the defensive effect isn't viable, people will only use the offensive effect. If neither of them, are viable (as they are in the proposed change), then the ability won't be used.

Edited March 15 by MarakViri

[Traumtulpe]

On 2024-03-13 at 6:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

LOKI ABILITY CHANGES

Decoy now also draws 15% of the Health and Shield totals of enemies within a base of 15m, scaling with Ability Strength and Range, respectively. This should make Decoy much more useful in higher-level missions, as it can survive a lot more exposure to enemy attacks!

Could it also get armor equal to the highest armor value of any enemy in range, not affected by ability strength? Because otherwise it'll do nothing against high level Grineer.

[MarakViri]

30 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Could it also get armor equal to the highest armor value of any enemy in range, not affected by ability strength? Because otherwise it'll do nothing against high level Grineer.

Im pretty sure they want it to be ... you know, killable, so probably not. Would definitely be nice though.

[marelooke]

On 2024-03-13 at 9:45 PM, Smeryl said:

Can we instead get a general option for this under the game settings that handles the variance of transparency of´invisible Warframes. This would affect all frames that can also become invisible through other effects (For example: cloak arow or Arkane Trickery). I also personally want to see allied players in their invisibility, seeing non-transparent allies would really bother me.

If we cannot disable this for our client I'm really worried about the impact on colourblind people. Based on the second screenshot I'm worried I wouldn't even be able to tell that Loki is invisible, or that there is anything "non standard" about it at all (just looks like a Loki someone shone a spotlight on to me).

If an allied Octavia can choose this effect for players affected by its abilities I'd be very concerned I wouldn't be able to tell whether the buff was active on my frame at all without checking the buff list.

[Agall]

On 2024-03-13 at 11:57 AM, [DE]Megan said:

This list is not exhaustive, there is much more QOL planned for Dante Unbound to look forward to, such as New Player Path Improvements, changes to UI selection screens, Orbiter Fast Travel,  Corrupted Jackal changes (Circuit), Melee Slam Changes, and much more! Official patch notes will provide full details.

Radial Javelin changed to pseudo-exalted apart of this list? :) 

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Oh. On-Call Crew. Right, yeah, that makes sense I suppose.

I still figured it would be easier with the Zenith, especially if you had a riven with <BaseDamage + Element Damage + Element Damage - (Irrelevant Stat)>. Especially if you're running Eclipse for damage multiplication, that should provide enough damage for a full-build Zenith to wipe the pylons from range.

My current setup is the Contagion Zaw (Toxin + Radiation + (Corrosive [Arcane]) + (Contagion), the Tenet Plinx (Magnetic + Heat), and the Zenith (Gas + Cold) with Nourish for Viral. Is there a specific reason as to the (I'm assuming Tenet) Diplos in particular?

I also considered trying Thermal Sunder with [Thermal Transfer], and switching my elements around so that I could run all of them, but can't really do that on Chroma because I need high Duration for it to work, and I can't cancel the buff without losing Vex Armor.

And, hold on one sec ...

If you needed to use a Macro for the Profit-Taker, I'm not surprised you find this an acceptable loss. And you aren't entirely wrong about the diminishment of Credits in the game. However, the question was "is this a reasonable loss", to which the answer is an emphatic no. Reducing the effectiveness of an ability by 85% is obscene. To put it into perspective for you, that would be like Roar increasing damage by a staggeringly oppressive , or Gloom slowing enemies by, at base 5.25%, or Thermal Sunder (Heat) dealing 135 Damage. Do you understand why people might be upset by this. I remember complaints when they dropped Roar from 50% to 30%, a static loss of 20% (equal to only 40% of it's actual damage) because it's a "huge loss of potential damage". The coming update is going to reduce Eclipse, the only damage multiplier Helminth ability even close to matching Roar, by lowering its damage by a static 170% (for an actual loss of 85%).

That said, if Credits are as defunct as you say (and thus these runs are pointless), why are in favour of further lowering the play-rate? You are basically saying "yeah, it's fine if they remove the only actual competition Roar has as a damage multiplier, because the content it's good for is irrelevant these days". Imagine further nerfing Sonar because "it doesn't work on bosses anyway".

The community accepted that there would be a nerf to the helminth version of Eclipse when the vote happened. The initial response to the proposed nerf was so vehement that DE revised it and amended it to the current proposal, and gave an only partially-accurate reason for it's severely reduced capability. Many of the posts under this topic (and many other topics) are refuting these reasons, and saying that the numbers are too low.

If you disagree, and think the numbers are balanced sufficiently well, then that is one thing. But saying that it is acceptable for it to be such a drastic cut of effectiveness shows a complete lack of respect for the players that play and enjoy the content that you don't, and use the ability, regardless of why. I have Eclipse on, I think, five Config Slots across all of my Warframes. Of those, I use one, and even then only when I'm feeling particularly bored.

I personally don't like the ability all that much as far as Helminth abilities go, but this isn't a change that will "reduce it to a reasonable pick rate", this is a change that will essentially remove it from the selection altogether, as there will be almost no reason to choose it, unless you, for some reason, really want a 75% Damage Reduction ability.

No, you're correct. It has most definitely eroded Team Play, and a consequence of that (and the lack of addressing) has resulted in Player Supported Powercreep. 100% correct. Unfortunately, this is now the state of the game, so we either do what we can with it or lose a chunk of the player base by reverting it.

Especially when the major reason the Helminth was so successful was the lack of upkeep for older frames in regards to new content, and a lack of viability for certain abilities (Aegis Storm for example), and DE's desire to band-aid it in the same way some of the ability augments act as band-aids.

Yes. Unfortunately, you are approaching this from the perspective of someone who has these thousands of hours. I myself am sitting at 1.5k, but most of that is screwing around. Most players don't have an excess of Credits, or Endo, or Platinum. I myself don't farm Credits often (except for recently; been doing Profit-Taker because I'm legitimately finding it fun) and I'm down to around 1m credits already.

Let's look at Nova, and apply this nerf to her. Null Star provides 90% damage reduction, and only to health? Let's drop it to 75%. Antimatter Drop has a 25,000 damage cap? Seems high. Let's reduce that by 85%. 3750 Damage seems fair. Molecular Prime slows enemies by 30%? Nah, now it slows them by 4.5%. Now, I understand this is very disingenuous, but I've already given a Helminth Ability example. 

To you, this change is a "minor inconvenience at best". The only saving grace to it is that the impact to Mirage herself is minimal (even though she kind of needs that 5% DR they're removing).

Except there is. It's called the Helminth System. It's something DE implemented when they decided they didn't want to manually balance every frame and have to work hard to keep them balanced with every update, new frame, and new mechanic. It's kind of annoying, but it provides a lot of cusstomization to the gameplay of a frame. Or, it would if the choices were balanced, and people didn't justs follow the meta.

And that's the problem. With the current state of the Helminth, this Eclipse change is not balanced. It is woefully, laughably underpowered in comparison to the exact ability they are trying to power match. Arguments can be made to the contrary, but the majority of damage in this game, especially in the late game, comes from either Abilities or Damage over Time effects. Now, what does Eclipse not boost, as an exclusively self-targeting buffing ability, and what does Roar boost, as a team-wide buffing ability?

If both effects of Eclipse could be active at the same time I might agree to the severely lowered effect of Solar Eclipse as well as the lowered cap of Lunar Eclipse. But the way they are presented does not give that implication, and directly gives the opposite.

Heck, they could add the Disposition System to the Helminth to try to balance the ability picks, and this would be the effect I would expect on a minimum disposition.

My macro comment went completely over your head. I also don't use them. I'm just aware of how players approach PT at the high end.

You understand that you can circumvent these changes by just bringing a teammate with Total Eclipse Mirage or taking Mirage herself right?

Undermining the identity of Warframe's innate characteristics is more damaging than losing a fundamentally unbalanced mechanic. People spoke up when Helminth was a dev workshop 4 years ago that Roar and Eclipse were a mistake to be in Helminth. This outcry is exactly why.

You're waffling towards me as if all of the things you said are things I didn't take into account. I know Roar is more effective than the proposed Eclipse in most cases. I know there's tons of players that are now brought up in the game with the expectation of solo steamrolling with these buffs.

I don't care that I'm rolling against the tide. I still think I'm right. The functionality lost by this reduction in effectiveness is good for the game. They didn't remove the effectiveness, they made sure only Mirage has that.

This could be Null Star where Nova's functionality was nerfed because of Limbo, Harrow, and Titania nuking a map.

What I feel you are arguing for is to preserve the brainless employment of the ability. I just can't agree with it.

[MarakViri]

On 2024-03-16 at 2:15 AM, Voltage said:

You understand that you can circumvent these changes by just bringing a teammate with Total Eclipse Mirage or taking Mirage herself right?

Yes, I am aware of this. If you read back a little bit however, you'd see that this isn't viable for me personally. That, of course, should have no effect on anything, but there are players that are functionally forced to play Solo, often due to poor connection, and some who prefer it.

On 2024-03-16 at 2:15 AM, Voltage said:

Undermining the identity of Warframe's innate characteristics is more damaging than losing a fundamentally unbalanced mechanic. People spoke up when Helminth was a dev workshop 4 years ago that Roar and Eclipse were a mistake to be in Helminth. This outcry is exactly why.

You are correct here. I wasn't a fan of the Helminth's Ability Subsuming function upon its introduction, and didn't use it until a few months after it. Heck, I still don't have every frame subsumed, including some of the "meta" subsumes, such as Gauss.

However, I have to correct something here. "... is more damaging than losing a fundamentally unbalanced mechanic". You are not losing a "fundamentally unbalanced mechanic". You are going from an very potent (beyond the reasonable expectation of capability) "unbalanced mechanic" to a woefully insufficient one. That is my problem with the change.

They want to balance an ability amidst a broken system, and decide to do so by making it an option that nobody will be chosing. If they want the high-pick rate abilities to be picked less, driving more people to pick Roar (which is significantly more used than Eclipse) instead is certainly not achieving that.

That is why I am saying the Solar Eclipse needs an increase for its Helminth version. Or, alternatively, Roar needs a debuff. I am just aware that one of these will receive insane levels of player opposition from all levels of player progress and capability.

And yes, introducing certain abilities to the Helminth were mistakes. But, what would you suggest Mirage's subsume be if not Eclipse? I'm genuinely curious.

On 2024-03-16 at 2:15 AM, Voltage said:

I don't care that I'm rolling against the tide. I still think I'm right. The functionality lost by this reduction in effectiveness is good for the game. They didn't remove the effectiveness, they made sure only Mirage has that.

See, the thing is that, for the most part, I actually agree with you. The only difference is that you seem to believe that the best way to achieve this is by making Mirage the only frame in the game that gets any actual use out of the ability. Nor that you want her to get significantly more out of it, but essentially have her have no subsume ability at all (because that's basically what the change will do).

Mirage receives the buff at more than 6.5x the strength of the Helminth ability with the proposal. I'm simply arguing that that discrepancy should be reduced by increasing the Diminished version.

The Lunar Eclipse is a pipe dream (as everyone knows its not going to get a 90% DR ability on the Helminth, especially one that is so easy to achieve).

On 2024-03-16 at 2:15 AM, Voltage said:

This could be Null Star where Nova's functionality was nerfed because of Limbo, Harrow, and Titania nuking a map.

I assume you're referring to the augment here? And yeah, that was stupid. But that happened because it was affected by the augment, not the base ability, since the augment doesn't get diminished. If they had reworked the augment to have scaling based on the actual stays of Null Star, and altered the helminth version, then they could have achieved the same effect without affecting Nova. But they either couldn't figure out how to do it or simply didn't want to, hence the universal nerf.

They have already provided a diminished effect for Eclipse. It's simply too strong of a nerf for an ability they claim they want to have "less" usage (as opposed to "no" usage). I'm not saying the Helminth version should be equal to the original. I'm not even saying it should be half as good. I'm saying it should be a quarter, or a fifth as good.

On 2024-03-16 at 2:15 AM, Voltage said:

What I feel you are arguing for is to preserve the brainless employment of the ability. I just can't agree with it.

I'm...not sure I understand what you're saying here, honestly. I assume you mean "activate damage buff and shoot", but I actually want this to be good defensively too. I just don't think a 75% DR is worth an ability slot, especially given the frames I had been intended on putting this on prior to the numbers (such as Inaros, who would benefit from both effects).

Now, if the ability was also affected by energy color or something (a bright energy color would increase the Solar buff, whereas a dark color would increase the Lunar buff, similar to Equinox' form shifts colors), and that would allow you to have either a 50% Damage increase but a 75% DR, or a 30% Damage Increase but a 90% DR, I would say its worth the trade.

Heck, if the numbers were 30% Damage and 90% DR, I would agree that the strength of the defensive buff warrants the lack of damage from its offensive buff, as that 30% is still good.

It's not Roar good was the issue, and only because the defensive side is lacking. One of the numbers needs to go up, and I know it's not going to be the DR, even though that's the one I'd be happier about.

Edited March 27 by MarakViri

[DManNoob]

Would you be able to buff hildryn? Balefire Charger is kind of weak for an exalted weapon when you look at Garuda’s Talons or Desert Wind Prime or Valkyr’s Talons etc. and why do I need so much strength for an armor strip? Just wanted point that out and ask for a buff.

Quick Edit. Mesa’s repeaters are a better ranged example

Edited March 15 by DManNoob

[Huntxrpai]

Definitely stoked on a number of these changes. 
 

IF I could say something about the Eclipse helminth changes specifically though, I think a lower base with the cap removed for the lunar ver. would be a bit better for the ability. The damage buff doesn’t really compete with roar given the way Roar impacts the ways in which we do damage. The 30% damage buff is nice but not equal-ish necessarily. This is fine though if the goal is to have eclipse as a helminth be more of a defensive tool. The issue is the 75% cap just isn’t high enough to be worth an ability slot. At least not on the frames that would seriously benefit from some damage reduction in their kit. Giving it a lower base value (say 45%) and having us need to build a reasonable amount of strength to get to that 90% would create some interesting builds for frames, while giving them access to a bit of damage when needed via the solar eclipse. Also would keep the ability as a reasonably worthwhile helminth. Just my two cents for what it’s worth. 
 

Dont snipe me friends I never done this before LOL 

[Skynet66]

15 hours ago, MarakViri said:

Okay, I like this. A truly strength dedicated build will draw over 160% of Health and Shield from nearby enemies, but this feel very comfortable for regular builds, and makes this ability actually usable in content post Star Chart Earth missions.

This is less of a boost, but still welcome, especially the freedom of mobility. The buff itself is also good, but doesn't particularly add anything to Loki's general playstyle (although it will certainly make it easier to speed-run through missions. I am curious as to whether this buff is also given to an ally if they are the selected target of your teleport.

Hmmm. Mixed feelings here. While the Toggle Functionality was community voted, and honestly probably the better choice both for the development team (requiring significantly less work than overhauling every tile-sets lighting) and the player base (ease of use is always desired after all), I feel that the numbers are still lacking, especially in regards to the Helminth Diminish.

While the argument can be made as to the Solar Eclipse buff being so low, and a reason is given, this feels disingenuous given the current Damage Meta of the game. As Faction Damage (provided by Roar) has quadratic scaling on Damage Over Time effects and applies a damage increase to abilities, the only benefit Eclipse gets in regards to damage is on Flat Damage (and even that is on the assumption that a player is using Faction Mods, otherwise both buffs provide identical damage). As the vast majority of builds utilise DoT damage (Slash, Gas, Heat, Toxin, or Electricity Status), Roar is, as stated, a superior damage buff (especially on frames with damaging abilities).

Furthermore, the actual Diminish is disingenuous as well. Roar has a base strength of 50% on its frame of origin, and is therefore diminished by only 40%. Eclipse, however, has a base strength of 200%. As that was conditional, reducing it by the same multiplicative of 40% would be unfair. However, this is a reduction of 85%, more than double the diminishment applied to Roar. A reduction of 75% (placing the buff at 50%) seems more fair, especially given the mathematical scaling, as the only time that the proposed Eclipse would be better than Roar, assuming all other factors are otherwise identical, is when a weapon is equipped with the correct faction mod. In all other scenarios, Roar is, at worst, a direct match in damage to Eclipse.

The Lunar Eclipse buff, on the other hand, has problems both on Mirage and when provided through the Helminth. Firstly, reducing the Damage Reduction for Mirage from 95% to 90% to "bring it in line with other damage reduction abilities" is actually extraordinarily unfair due to the overall survivability of the other frames.

The other abilities that apply a scaling Damage Reduction are; Preserving Shell, Splinter Storm, Kinetic Plating, and Parasitic Link, while sources of static or alternatively scaling Damage Reduction are Restraint, Desolate Hands, Serene Storm, Immolation, Pacify, Warding Halo, Null Star, Tribute (Thorns), Link, and Blessing.

     Preserving Shell

Preserving Shell has an initial damage reduction of 40%, which can be increased to 90% by either modding for 225% Ability Strength or gaining Kills or Assists while active. This is balanced through the means of it's Decay System. However, this is also applied to allies, which is a distinct advantage over Lunar Eclipse.

Additionally, Citrine has more Health, Armor, and Shields than Mirage, while also having access to health regeneration through her passive, as well as health orb regeneration. In other words, her need for damage reduction is technically less than Mirage's.

     Splinter Storm

Splinter Storm starts at a whopping 70% DR, and can be increased to 90% with 129% Strength. Additionally, it has infinitely scaling damage output and theoretically infinite upkeep (so long as you use the ability loop), and applies Damage Vulnerability to enemies. Oh, and it also applies the Damage Reduction to allies (and can be cast on any allies unit, including Defense Objectives). 

Additionally, Gara also has more Health, Armor, and Shield than Mirage. Their Prime's are more balanced, but Gara Prime still has more EHP than Mirage Prime. Gara also has CC from her passive (which also used to operate off of light and is now becoming more reliable as well), and can create a temporary reprieve from enemies with her fourth ability.

     Kinetic Plating

This provides only 80% DR, and only to some damage types, so Lunar Eclipse is better, right? Well, the damage types that this provides DR for just so happen to encompass basically every actual damage type you are likely to encounter except for Electric, Magnetic, and Toxin for the most part, so that part is moot. Oh, and the cap of 80% gets boosted to 100% through Gauss' forth ability. Granted, that is a temporary period, but this also converts incoming damage to energy, so it has additional utility.

Additionally, Gauss has more Health and Shield, and an equal Armor, to Mirage Prime. Needless to say, his EHP is higher. This is somewhat balanced, however, due to it's actual value swaying between 80% and 100%. Except, 100% DR is more than a quintillion times more valuable that 99.9999% DR. The only real disadvantage this ability has in comparison to Lunar Eclipse is the lack of reduction to Toxin.

     Parasitic Link

The last of the actual "equals" to Lunar Eclipse, this provides a base 50% Damage Redirection, capping at 90%. You also need to be linked to an enemy, and therefore be within a strict range of that linked enemy (but not line of sight) and, should the enemy die, you lose your DR . Of course, the only damage they take is the damage that Nidus redirects, so this is harder to achieve when you link to a sufficiently tanky foe. Oh, and Nidus transfers all status effects to the target too. This ability can, alternatively, link to an ally to provide both that ally and Nidus a scaling boost to Ability Strength.

Additionally, Nidus has both more Health and Armor than Mirage Prime (and his Prime has even more), but lacks both shields and a means of gaining Overguard, but has both health regeneration and innate Death Immunity. That said, both units often need access to DR, but Mirage is significantly squishier.

 

Now, what does all this tell us? Well, Mirage needs DR, and a lot of it. And, the only means she has of increasing her survivability innately is Lunar Eclipse. I suppose her Hall of Mirrors might result in what is effectively an Accuracy Debuff to enemies, but at higher Steel Path levels she pretty much dies as soon as her Shield Gate ends due to her low base Health and Armor, even with her current 95% DR. Lowering this further without increasing her base stats is just reducing her effective maximum level of play unless you utilise Shield Gating and/or iFrames to survive, in which case there is no need to use Lunar Eclipse either.

Now, finally, on to the Helminth version of this buff, which is, as it always has been, basically useless. This will be, for the most part, unused as a 75% DR just isn't enough at higher levels of content. [Arcane Double Back] has this same issue (speaking of, you should increase the effect to 30% per effect, and possibly make it apply regardless of which parkour setting is used with a universal decay (so three double jumps will trigger it's maximum effect, and then tick down to 2 stacks when the timer runs out)).

Instead, I would personally suggest lowering the base value of this from 75% to maybe 60% or even 50%, and increasing the cap from 75% to 90%, while maintaining the cap of 95% for Mirage herself. This allows it to function as a legitimately useful means of DR for frames that will need DR, thus making it an actually viable pick over Roar, even when using DoT weapons due to the value of Lunar Eclipse (which your proposed numbers make less likely, as you could get this with Arcane Double Back as mentioned).

Also, if you're trying to make it "equal" to Roar, then you need to increase it's base duration up to 30 seconds. Just saying.

Yeah, this makes sense, and is a great execution of the ability. Would be better if the damage was simply affected by Solar Eclipse's value instead of a flat 100%, but still good. AAssuming that this means it functions the way it currently does. If this is just a x2 damage multiplier, then I personally don't see how Mirage has any real damage utility outside of the Hall of Mirrors + Eclipse combo, especially given the lack of changes mentioned regarding Sleight of Hand (How is Sleight of Hand going to trigger in regards to the wonky light levels in missions, as it's triggering is also somewhat dependent on light levels?) That said, I also feel like it should be a purely channelled ability rather than a Duration-Channelled Ability (pure Duration would also work, but I think Channelled makes more sense even if Duration has higher ease of use). 

More reliable passive activation? Yes please. Still a little RNG dependant, but it's guaranteed to go off at least once every six casts, and with how spammable her first is, this isn't too bad. Question though ... what is the range value of "nearby"? Is it still 12 meters, or is it being changed?

I mean, better than I expected. I was half hoping you would split it into a Toggle as well, with one applying Viral Damage and the other applying Energy Regen (and maybe an Augment where it did both). Or perhaps having the Tap provide a higher energy multiplier but lower viral multiplier, and the Hold doing the inverse, as there are builds I use this on where I need the Energy Multiplier, but actively do not want the Viral Damage (though the Viral Explosion is still fairly useful), but this seems like a fairly well balanced means of implementation.

A question though; is the Energy Multiplier formula < 1 + (0.6 * STR) >, meaning that it will go up to 2.2x with 200% Strength, or is it < 0.6 + (1 + STR) meaning that it would go up to 2.6x, or is it < 0.8 + (0.8 * STR) > meaning 2.4x?

Ah, this would make their fights much easier, even with Damage Attenuation. Don't think I've fought one though, though it has been a while since I've done Iso Vaults. I would prefer if the damage attenuation was either per second or per instance, but still better than being exclusively weak-point oriented.

Oh good. Now I can listen to music without getting blindsided by a demolyst. Also, the conduit change is actually very helpful and I hadn't thought of it (even though it's screwed me over a few times), so thankyou.

I don't think I can express how much I like this. That said, will this have any affect on the screen changes when Loki goes invisible? I imagine the audio muffling would resume, but will the screen change colour still? (I think there is a setting that turns it off anyway, but I can't remember which)

Nice, a better (but still not guaranteed) chance of getting the Archon Shards we all want, especially with the upcoming Valence.

Interesting. All endless missions, but no Defense. Which I don't mind, as running Defense gets rather tedious as a half second of inattentiveness results in a mission fail sometimes.

Oh cool, SP Bounties. Was wondering when these would come out.

And very much looking forward to the full 40+ page list when this update drops. 

You genuinely knocked it out of the park with your explanation! I've not read a more thorough breakdown of the reason Mirage's eclipse nerf affects her survivability severely than this. I wish they can just not nerf mirage herself. If they're really adamant about the change to Helminth version, I hope they can leave Mirage alone as this whole issue was started by their subpar implementation of GI lighting. But amazing breakdown. I genuinely hope DE sees this and actually agrees with you.

[Tzykrow]

I'd never expected a strength Loki and... well here we are...😅

[Les-Gauss_Umbra]

On 2024-03-13 at 1:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

 

MIRAGE ECLIPSE & PRISM CHANGES

Eclipse 

After Devstream 176, we asked the community their preference for adjusting Mirage’s Eclipse. As a refresher, Eclipse changes its effect based on the light level surrounding the player, but this effect does not work correctly with GI lighting and open landscapes.

The consensus from players was to change the Light / Dark functionality to a toggle, so that is what we’re doing! Here’s a look at how this manifests for Mirage’s Eclipse:

How it works: 

• Tapping Eclipse provides the Lunar Eclipse buff (Increased Damage Reduction). 

• Holding Eclipse provides the Solar Eclipse buff (Increased Weapon Damage). 

 

Scaling change: 

Since the ability no longer depends on level lighting to determine the buff type, the buffs themselves also no longer scale based on light level. Instead, their previous maximum effect is now the base (affected by Ability Strength): 

• Solar Eclipse now has a base 200% increased Weapon Damage. 

• Lunar Eclipse now has a base 75% Damage Reduction. 

  • We have lowered the Damage Reduction cap to 90% (previously 95%) to bring it in line with other Damage Reduction abilities (Gara’s Splinter Storm, Citrine’s Preserving Shell, etc.).

 

Helminth Diminished Effectiveness Change: 

Eclipse has been one of the most popular Helminth abilities, so by fixing its unreliability related to light sources and making its buffs guaranteed, a rebalance was in order to compensate. This change does not affect the ability for Mirage, only when applied from Helminth.

 

• Solar Eclipse has a base 30% increased Weapon Damage.

  • This was previously 150%, it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar.

• Lunar Eclipse has not changed. It still provides a base 75% Damage Reduction.

  • The Damage Reduction cap also remains the same at 75%. 

 

You may be asking yourself, why choose to Subsume Eclipse over Roar? 

Roar also affects Abilities and double dips on damage over time. If pure damage is the goal, one would probably choose Roar. Eclipse can switch between defensive and offensive buffs for situational gameplay choices. The idea is they are equal-ish for weapon damage.

I feel like dropping the Eclipse to match Roar is a bit much. Yes they're both damage buffs, but that isn't going to make it equal-ish. Eclipse drops by 170% from the base frame yet roar drops by 20%. You know Roar works differently and a 30% Roar is going to give you more than a 30% Eclipse. 

Roar double dips and affects Abilities,  and Eclipse doesn't do that at all. So what's the point of Eclipse? If the percentages match, but has far less effectiveness, I'd just run Roar. It's a greater bang for buck. The 75% damage Reduction barely means anything as well. It's basically paper considering how much damage enemies do in steel path. 

[RafMatador22]

On 2024-03-13 at 4:14 PM, Jaynat said:

Shouldn't this also include Wisp? Her passive and her second abilities turn her invisible when airborn or when the clone is active, respectively...

From what I know, the wisp's invisibility is only for enemies and not for us, let's say it is invisibility only in theory and not visual.

[DogsConkers]

For Disruption couldn't you make one of the blue ones yellow? The red one is fine.

[SteveCutler]

Wait, what about Loki's passive? No changes?

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

Wait, what about Loki's passive? No changes?

69 second maximum wall latch time or I'm gonna one-person riot.