Dante Unbound - Dev Workshop: General Quality of Life

[Erenna]

13 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

From what I know, the wisp's invisibility is only for enemies and not for us, let's say it is invisibility only in theory and not visual.

This. It's an update to abilities that have a strong visual effect, and Wisp's invisibility looks closest to the third option right now. I could see an option to reduce particles, but overall the focus seems to be on stealth effects that can make it hard for some people to tell where their warframe is at any given moment.

[(PSN)NinjaBlade626]

On 2024-03-13 at 5:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

LOKI ABILITY CHANGES

 

On 2024-03-13 at 5:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

ARSENAL QOL CHANGE: CUSTOMIZATION FOR “INVISIBLE” WARFRAMES 

 

The best QOL that`s coming in this update is that finishers are going to be consistent and they will be front finishers, This has been an issues in wf for over 7 years now wf`s like Lavos` 1 Styanax`s 2, Valkyr`s 3, Wukong`s 2 and Ash`s 3 will finally work, THIS IS GREAT.

As much as I like the changes to Loki and Mirage they need more than this more so Loki, his passive needs to be changes, his 1 and 3 needs to do a lot more, does Loki need to be a damage dealer? no but his abilities could be unique and fit the theme of a trickster.

As for mirage her 2 need to do more adding the jewel did nothing to the ability, when it first came out it use to work and it was a good ability for stealth gameplay but now it`s bugged and it needs the augment for it to be useful.

Please revisit Loki and Mirage in the future.

 

Edited March 20 by (PSN)NinjaBlade626

[Firaxion]

 

As Gara is included in the QoL discussion I thought I'd finally FINALLY risk requesting a change to something that has literally being bugging me for YEARS in this game at this point:

 

1/ Gara's splinter storm is one of the most annoyingly distracting and visually detrimental ability in the entire game.

Screenshots don't fully capture the problem (as it is the swirling movement that is the biggest issue)  but here is an example:

 

Having constantly orbing giant globs of trash circling your ENTIRE screen at VERY FAST SPEED, even across the very centre of the screen, is unbelievably visually bad. I have put up with it between clenched teeth, because the ability is so key to Gara's kit, but i am extremely reluctant to cast this ability on pub squadmates due to the visual noise and the potential complaints.

Even just a see through large-ish cone of clear vision at the centre of the screen a la Mirage's hall of mirrors would be an incredible quality of life improvement here.

 

I cast it on a friend new to warframe who had never played Gara before and his first comment seconds later was "WHAT THE HELL is going on??, I cant SEE ANYTHING!!!!" 😐

 

Less deadly but I'm going to mention it anyway,

2/ Gara's X wall from her Mass Vitirify 4 ability; less irritating but, still fairly off-putting during frequent use:

 

 

On 2024-03-13 at 8:14 PM, KamuiHyuga said:

 

2) I know the QoL list isn't 100% exhaustive of all the updates, but can we get a thought spared for Frost and his poor Snow Globe?  Allies are still completely unable to fire from outside of the globe to anything inside of it, which can cause issues.  Things like Volt's shields and Gara's glass barrier do not have this issue, so having Frost's Snow Globe (and ally Frost Eximus Snow Globes for that matter) only allow allied projectiles to pass through seems horribly inconsistent and inconvenient.  Can this be added on the list for a potential future QoL change?

^^^^^^ agree with this for sure.

 

I hope someone notices this stuff, it would make a world of difference. Thank you very much for reading!

[GrumpyPants]

On 2024-03-15 at 9:08 PM, MarakViri said:

Reducing the effectiveness of an ability by 85% is obscene. To put it into perspective for you, that would be like Roar increasing damage by a staggeringly oppressive , or Gloom slowing enemies by, at base 5.25%, or Thermal Sunder (Heat) dealing 135 Damage. Do you understand why people might be upset by this. I remember complaints when they dropped Roar from 50% to 30%, a static loss of 20% (equal to only 40% of it's actual damage) because it's a "huge loss of potential damage". The coming update is going to reduce Eclipse, the only damage multiplier Helminth ability even close to matching Roar, by lowering its damage by a static 170% (for an actual loss of 85%).

 

On 2024-03-16 at 10:35 AM, Les-Gauss_Umbra said:

I feel like dropping the Eclipse to match Roar is a bit much. Yes they're both damage buffs, but that isn't going to make it equal-ish. Eclipse drops by 170% from the base frame yet roar drops by 20%. You know Roar works differently and a 30% Roar is going to give you more than a 30% Eclipse. 

You need to stop looking at the reduction from the base frame. Mirage and Rhino are completely different frames. Rhino is functionally unkillable outside of extremely high levels, mirage is quite the opposite. Her main survivability comes at the cost of losing her damage buff. Their power budgets are entirely different, that is why mirage gets such a huge multiplier. Helminth abilities need to be balanced from the perspective that they can be put on any frame, over (almost) any ability. That is why the reduction needs to be larger on eclipse, so that it doesn't immediately invalidate every other option. Eclipse has gotten away with a large modifier so far because of its inconsistency, which is no longer the case. Looking at the 85% reduction between mirage and the helminth version and saying that would be like making thermal sunder do only 135 damage is a false equivalence, and not helpful to the discussion.

The ONLY argument here that 30% is too low is based on the fact that roar multiplies status procs twice, which is a trait that will make it more impactful on almost any late game build. Bleed and heat builds make up a majority of powerful weapon builds in the late game and roar will perform better on all of them. This is roar's strength though, so it should be balanced so that roar will continue to be the best choice for these builds. Eclipse being the SAME as roar for every other build though means that it will almost never be the right choice. Ideally roar will outperform eclipse on status based builds, but eclipse should offer more damage on raw damage builds. After a bit of math I believe a multiplier of 50% achieves this goal. Any higher than that and roar never sees the light of day again.

Edited March 17 by GrumpyPants

[MarakViri]

58 minutes ago, GrumpyPants said:

You need to stop looking at the reduction from the base frame. Mirage and Rhino are completely different frames. Rhino is functionally unkillable outside of extremely high levels, mirage is quite the opposite. Her main survivability comes at the cost of losing her damage buff. Their power budgets are entirely different, that is why mirage gets such a huge multiplier. Helminth abilities need to be balanced from the perspective that they can be put on any frame, over (almost) any ability. That is why the reduction needs to be larger on eclipse, so that it doesn't immediately invalidate every other option. Eclipse has gotten away with a large modifier so far because of its inconsistency, which is no longer the case. Looking at the 85% reduction between mirage and the helminth version and saying that would be like making thermal sunder do only 135 damage is a false equivalence, and not helpful to the discussion.

Okay, so I feel this is quoting me slightly out of context, but you're objections are 100% correct. They are different frames. Mirage is made of tissue paper. However, when you look at the places where Eclipse was most likely to be used, it is in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis, where the luminosity levels provided a very consistent Damage Buff. 

Yes, the reduction needs to be larger, as most frames that will subsume it are, unlike Mirage, made of something other than wet tissue paper (most of the time). But it was still too large of a reduction, especially since the other "half" of the ability us borderline useless as a Helminth option (75% DR is not really worth the ability slot).

The comparisons (such as Thermal Sunder doing 135 damage) were to highlight how absurd the decrease was, not as an actual indication of balance.

All my actual comparisons were in regards to Roar, as far as the numeretical balance of the ability goes, as thats the only ability in the Helminth that functions similarly enough to be a fair comparison. But, due to the quadratic scaling of Faction damage (which is not present in the Final Multiplication of Eclipse), having the two be "equal" in their base numbers would ultimately lead to Roar being used in almost every situation where you would take Eclipse, except in the odd case where you wanted the Damage Reduction or were targeting a boss and had your weapons modded for Faction Damage (such as The Fragmented One or Profit-Taker), and even then the different wouldn't be large enough to bother with for most people.

That would lead to the usage stats of Eclipse as a Helminth Ability being transferred, almost in their entirety, to Roar, which is already used more. And that would certainly not "make the more used Helminth ability's less used", which was functionally their reason for the proposed "balance".

58 minutes ago, GrumpyPants said:

The ONLY argument here that 30% is too low is based on the fact that roar multiplies status procs twice, which is a trait that will make it more impactful on almost any late game build. Bleed and heat builds make up a majority of powerful weapon builds in the late game and roar will perform better on all of them. This is roar's strength though, so it should be balanced so that roar will continue to be the best choice for these builds. Eclipse being the SAME as roar for every other build though means that it will almost never be the right choice. Ideally roar will outperform eclipse on status based builds, but eclipse should offer more damage on raw damage builds. After a bit of math I believe a multiplier of 50% achieves this goal. Any higher than that and roar never sees the light of day again.

 

On 2024-03-15 at 3:35 PM, MarakViri said:

A reduction of 75% (placing the buff at 50%) seems more fair, especially given the mathematical scaling

... yeah, that's what I suggested? I've already run the math. People are proposing 75-100%, which I feel is too strong. The sweet spot is between 40 and 60 percent, to allow Roar to still be the ultimately better choice overall while still allowing Eclipse to shine in the places where it can (such as on Status Immune (or DoT immune) enemies).

Ultimately, Roar will always be a better option for Endurance, because most enemies are not DoT immune, whereas Eclipse is better for targeted missions, such as the Eidolon fights, or the Profit-Taker, which would not be the case if it's Base value was the same as Roar.

I understand that this is a 9 page post (currently) and my initial post was on page 7, and was a rather long post so it might not have been read ... but you were responsible for the post after my initial post.

Edited March 18 by MarakViri

[GrumpyPants]

35 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

However, when you look at the places where Eclipse was most likely to be used, it is in the Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis, where the luminosity levels provided a very consistent Damage Buff. 

I think you've got it a bit backwards. The reason they were most likely to be used there was BECAUSE the light levels were consistent. It was already unbalanced in those areas because the constant light levels allowed it to be vastly superior to other options.

 

35 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

The comparisons (such as Thermal Sunder doing 135 damage) were to highlight how absurd the decrease was, not as an actual indication of balance.

My point was just that making these kinds of comparisons isn't helpful and detracts from otherwise valid arguments. These kinds of comparisons are what leads to suggestions like 100% multiplier at base, which is obviously far too much.

 

35 minutes ago, MarakViri said:

especially since the other "half" of the ability us borderline useless as a Helminth option (75% DR is not really worth the ability slot).

Personally I'd love to see this half of the ability changed as well. Most frames are going to just use it for damage anyway, and using it for DR means having no damage multiplier active. I think lowering the base DR to something around 45% but increasing the cap to 90% would make sense. Most DR abilities in the game cap at 90%, I see no reason why this one shouldn't. Lowering the base just means if a frame is using it solely for the DR they need to build some strength to see the full benefit. I'd even be happy if they lowered the base on the DR to 30% if it meant the cap could be increased to 90%, and the damage portion of the ability was raised to 50%. I can't imagine eclipse would be unbalanced at all in that state.

 

Edited March 18 by GrumpyPants

[Oryo4231]

On 2024-03-13 at 11:31 AM, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

1.6x is quite low. I was expecting 1.75 or 1.8. At 1.6, scaling with strength is low enough that you would need at least +400% strength to reach what used to take only +100% (at a nerf to only 1.75x, it would only require +300%, a far more reasonable strength value to reach).

Unless the +100% was a typo and was supposed to be +200%, I believe you confused +200% strength with 200% total strength . What you would actually need is +233% strength (333% total) to reach the same value as what can be achieved pre-nerf with +100% strength (200% total). +400% strength (500% total) would be needed to match pre-nerf at +200% strength (300% total).

[Graavarg]

On 2024-03-13 at 8:37 PM, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

Axi leeching during a new Prime release maybe but you should be using a Radshare anyway. Nobody is going to be using highly valuable Axi relics in an Omni fissure anyway. The missions are there for trace farming and if the only Disruption fissure is an Axi fissure and you don't have Axi relics but there's an Omni Disruption fissure instead.

For those Tenno that still likes to play actual co-op Warframe ("with friends/clan") the addition of Omnia fissures is simply great! This allows co-op squads to freely "mix and match": use relics that they have a lot of to (potentially) crack something a friend needs and get something they need from friends.

It is simply a great "utility mission" for "returning friends" and "newer friends", allowing the former to offer up older relics (that the newer players doesn't have and can only get from Varzia) and the latter to offer newer relics (the the returning player would have to farm).

Warframe have been leaning more and more towards a "it is all about me"-game, but hopefully there is still some co-op going on somewhere on the starmap(?).

[koragon2610]

For eclipse before dante unbound the problem is so uncosistency and after if like the DE inform with that plan its way too low from max 150% become fix 30%

if only if make a skill based on where the spot actived when in bright spot it become solar with gap 50% up to 100%(adjustable) so when actived in bright even stand in darker area minimum still get 50%
and so on depending on ability str
likewise lunar when actived it get stronger in darker area up to DE the percentage cous eclipse such unique skill to bigin with it kinda a waste in my opinion 

i am unfimilar with coding and how to implement with such huge game like warfame ext just saying my mind out 

Edited March 20 by koragon2610

[Dreamnomad]

On 2024-03-13 at 12:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

LOKI ABILITY CHANGES

Decoy now also draws 15% of the Health and Shield totals of enemies within a base of 15m, scaling with Ability Strength and Range, respectively. This should make Decoy much more useful in higher-level missions, as it can survive a lot more exposure to enemy attacks!

From a Loki main: 

I think this is a nice start, but doesn't address synergy issues with Loki that many frames have already. Most in the community agree Decoy should have no health at all and just scale on duration. Unlike other frames, Loki deals no direct damage and relies on invisibility heavily especially at high level. He's ultimately a bit less fun to play because you spend more time trying to not get one-shoted. Where as other stealth frames IE: Ivara (Traditional Stealth camper) , Ash (Ninja Stealth) are fun because you lean into their persona's and their abilities build on them and scale.

Its why I think Decoy needs additional options that play toward Loki's Trickster persona. There are many post on this, so I am petitioning for a more robust synergy overhaul for Loki.

For instance: Decoys that explode or cause blind/shock. Or switch teleporting on enemies while in air causing fall damage. Or Radial Disarm that disables eximus or ability nullifiers.

Loki's lack of ability damage and squishiness should be made up for in creative cc and buff that reward his playstyle. 

[Mayhem-Ivory]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb koragon2610:

For eclipse before dante unbound the problem is so uncosistency and after if like the DE inform with that plan its way too low from max 150% become fix 30%

if only if make a skill based on where the spot actived when in bright spot it become solar with gap 50% up to 100%(adjustable) so when actived in bright even stand in darker area minimum still get 50%
and so on depending on ability str
likewise lunar when actived it get stronger in darker area up to DE the percentage cous eclipse such unique skill to bigin with it kinda a waste in my opinion 

i am unfimilar with coding and how to implement with such huge game like warfame ext just saying my mind out 

Not going to happen. The entire reason it is getting changed is because tying it to the lighting engine causes problems. "Tie it to the lighting engine but with less variance" is just the worst of both worlds from that perspective.

But yes, the 30% value is too low. Personally I could see something like "30% base - goes up to 60% as you get kills - resets down to 30% if you take damage" to make it more interactive / skill based.

[Digital-Dreams]

On 2024-03-13 at 1:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

LOKI ABILITY CHANGES

Decoy now also draws 15% of the Health and Shield totals of enemies within a base of 15m, scaling with Ability Strength and Range, respectively. This should make Decoy much more useful in higher-level missions, as it can survive a lot more exposure to enemy attacks!

via GIPHY

Would it not be easier to make the Decoy invulnerable? That would solve the issue of it dying too quickly by making it not die at all, plus it would mean that negative strength builds would not be a detriment to Decoy (if it is not subsumed over).

[MarakViri]

7 hours ago, Mayhem-Ivory said:

But yes, the 30% value is too low. Personally I could see something like "30% base - goes up to 60% as you get kills - resets down to 30% if you take damage" to make it more interactive / skill based.

I'd settle for having it tied to your Primary Energy/Emissive colour. You run a brighter colour, Solar Eclipse becomes stronger but Lunar Eclipse becomes weaker. Run a darker colour, and the opposite is true. As long as the scaling strength of Solar Eclipse isn't a measly 30% (50% is the sweet spot by the math, though I could be wrong). This way, the default is 30/75, running with a bright (white) energy/emissive and it goes to 50/50, but run a dark (black) energy/emissive, and it goes to 20/90.

Honestly, I don't think that 30% is good enough of a damage buff, nor is 75% good enough of a damage reduction. Having it be one or the other in this sense lets you build for your preferred option, but still gives you access to the alternative (at a reduced strength), or even just buffing the chosen attribute without weakening the other (going from 30/75 to 50/75 or 30/90).

13 minutes ago, Digital-Dreams said:

Would it not be easier to make the Decoy invulnerable? That would solve the issue of it dying too quickly by making it not die at all, plus it would mean that negative strength builds would not be a detriment to Decoy (if it is not subsumed over).

I think it was originally, but it was too strong. Plus, it currently has a very good duration, and losing that (which you would have to if it was straight unkillable) would decrease energy efficiency (which is admittedly less of an issue these days). But honestly, I think that's the point. Negative-Strength is still detrimental to it, but still allows it to scale fairly well if you place it properly. I think the main issue is; "draws 15% of the Health and Shield totals of enemies within a base of 15m, scaling with Ability Strength and Range, respectively". This means that his armor (and thus damage reduction) does not really increase by much. If they provided some form of innate Damage Reduction or Damage Attenuation, he would be more useful as, without armor, his health doesn't matter too much against 1000+ SP enemies.

This may provide him a few extra second of survivability though, which means he is easier to target with Switch Teleport, so you could conceivably keep him alive for the entire duration if you use [Safeguard Switch]. Ideally, you should be able to make the Decoy invulnerable without using that augment (and have the augment give the invincibility to you when yo switch with it), but you can somewhat do this already.

That said, it does add a far better distraction even with their proposed changes, and some improvement is better than no improvement. Could still be better, of course, but this is a good start, and I'd rather small, consistent improvements rather than a single buff and consequent nerf. But this is, ultimately, a first step. If this is the only change they are intending to make, however, then it will likely fall flat, though actual play-testing will be required.

Edited March 21 by MarakViri
Early Submission

[Digital-Dreams]

1 hour ago, MarakViri said:

I think it was originally, but it was too strong. Plus, it currently has a very good duration, and losing that (which you would have to if it was straight unkillable) would decrease energy efficiency (which is admittedly less of an issue these days).

I think you misunderstood what I mean, I don't want the Decoy to stay indefinitely, I want it to not have health. I agree that the duration is good but the fact that it has a health bar makes it not matter due to enemy scaling, and just trying to make it "scale" with enemies means it will still die and not reach the full duration. Getting rid of the health and just making it so enemies cannot kill it means that it will last for the full duration and be a good aggro, meaning you have to cast it less often than if it had health.

 

[MarakViri]

On 2024-03-21 at 4:55 PM, Digital-Dreams said:

I think you misunderstood what I mean, I don't want the Decoy to stay indefinitely, I want it to not have health. I agree that the duration is good but the fact that it has a health bar makes it not matter due to enemy scaling, and just trying to make it "scale" with enemies means it will still die and not reach the full duration. Getting rid of the health and just making it so enemies cannot kill it means that it will last for the full duration and be a good aggro, meaning you have to cast it less often than if it had health.

So, I agree with you partly (in that this is not survivable enough). However, you can technically now build for a more survivable Decoy with Ability Strength. Removing this by making him intangible or invincible (thus making it Duration-only) will not only result in the Duration being drastically reduced for balancing purposes, but it removes the potential synergies that it now opens up for the Helminth (as so many of them need Strength, and none of Loki's current abilities do). For example; does Null Star provide damage reduction to Decoy? Now, yes, I know that that scales off of Duration, but the augment is a Strength nuke (kind of). Because, you already build Loki for Duration (four of my six builds are at or over 300%), and giving it health to take advantage of that may be nice. Of course, Loki doesn't really need it himself (even if functionally guaranteed 90% DR is nice), so let's shelf that (that's more of a personal curiosity thing anyway). Besides, the only reason you tank Strength is because he wants maximum duration (and thus uses [Narrow Minded]) but also wants Range (and therefore needs [Overextended]).

If you don't tank your Strength, you can make good use of Breach Surge as both additional CC and a damage enhancer. You could also make potentially better use of Nourish. The armor-stripping abilities are now feasible without sacrificing a mod slot that adds nothing to the rest of your kit. Heck, Decoy is the ability most people subsume over. Do you know what that means? The builds don't change.

Now, let's make it completely indestructible. First, we need to rebalance the Duration and/or the Threat Level. So, the Duration goes from 25 seconds down to 8 seconds, and enemies will now prioritise the Defense Target if they can see it. Why? Because everyone builds for Duration and its too good of a stall if it can't die. Oh, also, you now need to rework [Deceptive Bond], as it would make you unkillable at just 200% Strength (although it already kind of needs a rework to be fair, but for the opposite reason).

Now, if they gave it a period of Invincibility (ie, the first five seconds after appearing), then they could keep the proposed change that allows it to scale while still providing a minimum survival time. You also have to keep in mind that, if you want an "invincible decoy", you can use Resonator. That "fixes" the flaw in his kit in a more effective way.

Also, you could just use Decoy after Radial Disarm. The enemy's have to path to it before they can destroy it. Alternatively, you can put it somewhere that the enemies can't target it (like behind a wall), and they will shoot the wall. There are ways to make the ability work even without the increased survivability, they're just painful. Besides, even if you change absolutely nothing about the builds, this proposed Decoy is still likely going to survive longer than the current one, even on Strength-Dump build.

Also, I don't think I did misunderstand you. Even if you drop the Duration to four seconds, you can still keep it indefinitely. It just requires recasts ... just like it does now. I am aware that you want it to be indestructible, not permanent. But if it lives and dies solely by Duration, then the only thing you ever need to worry about when playing Loki is running out of energy, and it allows for practically AFK strategies (cast 2, cast 1, repeat). There would never be a reason to use your fourth ability, except to force enemies to your Decoy due to it's heightened threat level.

Making the Decoy indestructible will functionally destroy Loki, not fix him. Brief invincibility could work (like Iron Skin or Snowglobe), but it should be a few seconds at most and probably un-spammable (cannot recast while active) to balance even that. If you want to keep it invincible you can with [Safeguard Switch] (although, as I mentioned, I feel that should be innate to the ability synergy), and it should have scaling Damage Resistance or some kind of Damage Attenuation, but pure invincibility is, in my opinion, not the way to go. Also ...

On 2024-03-21 at 4:55 PM, Digital-Dreams said:

meaning you have to cast it less often than if it had health.

Kind of, but not really. If the Duration is, say eight seconds on the invincible one, but the Strength Scaling one is twenty-five, the first one only lasts longer if you can't protect or preserve the latter (basically, it lasts longer if you set-and-forget). I proposed Switch Teleport providing it a period of invincibility (and possibly a heal, now that I think of it) that scales off of either Strength or Duration (or both), which the augment already technically does. Provided you actually interact with it, is lasts far longer. It just requires you to maintain it.

I will almost always argue that interaction is better than a lack-of it (except in the cases of micro-managing, like the pre-Dante Eclipse is in regards to light levels and snapshotting). DE could definitely improve their idea further, but this is a good start.

A halfway point (12 second Duration, no health) could possibly work, but it ultimately comes back to it being a matter of interaction and the fact that most of us want to be able to play Loki without engaging more than 2 brain-cells. His Invisibility is the longest in the game, and people complain because it isn't re-castable and he dies if he gets breathed on too hard.

I have been enjoying the Circuit (SP) for the past few months, and Loki actually performs fairly well there, whether I play with Decoy or Radial Disarm replaced by a Helminth ability (or neither of them). I even have a build waiting for the new augment and changes that I'm legitimately excited to play. The only thing that stalls me, realistically, is the Assassination stage, as I have no reliable form of DPS as Loki, nor can I contribute much to that stage as him except armor-stripping or disarming, and need to rely on my weapons or teammates, and it is more often than not the latter.

That's just my opinion though, but I have actually played Loki (and not just used him to cheese, though that can be fun too). It would be an improvement in ease of use, but overall I think it would just result in a nerf again when they removed it. 

Edited March 25 by MarakViri
Early Submission | Spelling Corrections

[NovaLP]

On 2024-03-13 at 6:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Omnia Fissures can be found on:

• Lua: Yuvarium (Conjunction Survival)

• Lua: Circulus (Conjunction Survival)

• Zariman: Everview Arc (Void Flood)

• Zariman: Tuvul Commons (Void Cascade)

• Albrecht’s Laboratories: Cambire (Alchemy)

• Albrecht’s Laboratories: Persto (Survival)

So Conjunction Survival is weighted twice to appear but Lua Disruption is missing as is the new upcoming one and Mirror Defense and Armageddon?

3 out of only 6 mission types are Survival?

I just don't get what the reason for such a decision is, maby technical? I just hope they will be added in the future because especially for Disruption to not be part of the omia fissure rotation is a bummer. I am still happy for the addition of omnia fissures but I find it fascinating how DE always manages to curb my expectations.

[quxier]

On 2024-03-15 at 11:41 AM, Voltage said:

Everyone also keeps missing the point that Eclipse is the ability of Mirage. There's nothing that entitles the player to that massive damage buff on Volt, Saryn, Wisp, or any other Warframe. If I were to really balance Helminth, I would remove Roar, Xata's Whisper, Nourish and Eclipse for a different ability altogether.

Ok, but what would you pick?

Xaku:

- I'm using 1st (xata whisper) for status. I guess it makes easier to deal with Sentients but after status change it's not necessary. Is that buff even strong enough?

- 2nd -Grasp of lohk is afk style with 4th. Without 4th it's just some annoying buff for some time.

- 3rd has 3 subabilities. They would probably do something like with Ivara - pick 2. Mind controlled abilities can be killed so it's useless for frames that uses weapons. Plus it costs 75 energy. Gaze is stationary, costs 75 energy, has low duration (14s). There are much better option for helminth (e.g. Styanax 25 energy cost spamm + hp regen OR Hildryn's shield regen with armor strip). The last subability either kill enemies or suspend them in the air (after some damage afair). For damage it has somoe synergy with 2nd afair so alone it won't be good. For hovering small group of enemies it costs too much (75 energy).

- 4th Stops time for abilities, have some damage evasion and void debuf for enemies. They won't put "stop time" for other abilities so this function won't be in helminth. 75% evasion? Well not the best not the worst but costs 100.

There is nothing to pick. It's either too powerful (stoping time 4th) or too weak (suspend enemies).

I bet other frame have similar problems.

I heard Mirage/2nd can nuke - I find it "meh". 4th is weak. 1st is too strong imho (imagine doing 3-5x damage).

Rhino dash? We have Vial rush (alchemist frame0. Stomp? Maybe.

 

 

[Melvitech64]

On 2024-03-13 at 1:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Solar Eclipse has a base 30% increased Weapon Damage.

• This was previously 150%, it was reduced to match the Diminished Effectiveness of Rhino’s Roar.

I'm not really a fan of the numbers for this change to be honest. Since roar was reduced from 50 to 30% (according to the wiki), which is a 40% decrease, and since eclipse is multiplied differently from roar, shouldnt its reduction be lower to match the damage output on roar? Instead of 30% for eclipse, wouldnt the numbers need to be about 90 or 120%? Or is there something im missing about the math?

[UnicornMayo]

@[DE]Megan

I know this may sound a little too much of an ask, can someone please look into a QoL Tap/Hold functionality for Loki and his Switch Teleport? Where we tap to teleport and hold to switch kind of thing? I ask, because it would be really nice to not troll your team when you are trying to get out of a bad situation (by placing them in it).

[GrumpyPants]

7 hours ago, Melvitech64 said:

I'm not really a fan of the numbers for this change to be honest. Since roar was reduced from 50 to 30% (according to the wiki), which is a 40% decrease, and since eclipse is multiplied differently from roar, shouldnt its reduction be lower to match the damage output on roar? Instead of 30% for eclipse, wouldnt the numbers need to be about 90 or 120%? Or is there something im missing about the math?

Eclipse is very strong on mirage, partly because she is designed in a way that while using the damage buff from eclipse she is very, VERY frail. Rhino is exactly the opposite. Mirage is allowed a greater multiplier in exchange for the added risk of playing such a frail frame. It's true that the buffs work differently, but the difference isn't that massive. Both Eclipse and Roar multiply the damage your weapon deals. If a shot normally does 100 damage, either one of them will increase the damage to 130.

While eclipse acts as its own multiplier, roar counts as faction damage. This means if using it against Grineer with a Primed Bane of Grineer equipped, the abilities multiply differently.

Eclipse damage is 100 * 1.55 (faction damage) * 1.3 (eclipse) = 201.5
Roar damage is 100 * (1 + 0.55(faction mod) + 0.3(roar)) = 185

If using a faction mod, Eclipse actually increases damage more than roar. The problem shows itself when you start looking at status procs like bleed and heat. Status effects deal damage each tick based on the modded base damage of the attack that applies them. Modded base damage includes both roar and eclipse in its calculation. The difference is that the damage of each tick is multiplied by faction damage a second time, meaning bleed and heat effects benefit more from roar than they do eclipse.

Using the above calculations as base damage we can see how this affects the resulting proc damage. Bleed status effects do 0.35x the modded base damage per tick before faction damage multipliers.

Eclipse bleed = 0.35 * 201.5(modded base damage) * 1.55(faction damage) = 109.3
Roar bleed = 0.35 * 185(modded base damage) * 1.85(faction damage) = 119.8

Given bleed and heat are used in most of the best DPS builds in the game, eclipse simply isn't competitive with roar on meta builds. Note that the above example may be close in damage but it does not use any ability strength, and is also using a primed faction damage mod which stacks additively with roar. Increasing ability strength, or removing the faction damage mod widen the gap in damage between the two significantly. To figure out how much strength is appropriate you can simply try using a different multiplier for eclipse. If we try your suggestion of 90% lets see how it changes. To give roar as significant an advantage as possible there will be no faction mod this time, and ability strength will be 300%.

Eclipse modded base damage is 100 * 3.7(eclipse)= 370
Roar modded base damage is 100 * 1.9(roar) = 190

Eclipse bleed = 0.35 * 370(modded base damage) = 129.5
Roar bleed = 0.35 * 190(modded base damage) * 1.9(roar) = 126.35

Even in an ideal situation roar would never be competitive with eclipse if it had a base of 90%. Eclipse is also cheaper, able to be recast, and provides an (albeit somewhat underwhelming) defensive option. A much more appropriate base for eclipse would be 50%. This allows eclipse to be a more effective option that roar on non-status builds, and perform roughly on par with roar in combination with faction damage mods. Roar would still be better for raw damage on meta builds, but eclipse would be close enough that the convenience of its cheaper energy cost and ability to be recast might still make it the better overall choice for some players.

Note: All the math is based on a hypothetical gun that does 100 damage. Crits, base damage mods etc. all interact with roar and eclipse in the same way so they don't really make a difference to the math here. The idea is just to show a comparison between how the two multiply damage on the same weapon.

Edited March 23 by GrumpyPants

[Undoe]

On 2024-03-13 at 11:57 AM, [DE]Megan said:

DISRUPTION ACCESSIBILITY CHANGES

Disruption is receiving changes to better accommodate audio issues!

While players engage with Disruption, we know there have been requests to de-emphasize the audio element that dictates where the Demolyst is originating. So, with accessibility in mind, Disruption is receiving the following changes:

• When the Demolyst beeps are heard in-game, an enemy marker will fade in and out in the direction of the Demolyst

  • The closer you get to the Demolyst, the more permanent the enemy marker becomes.

  • Within line of sight, the enemy marker stays permanent.

• The red Conduit is now yellow to better prompt visual clarity between the icons and Demolysts.

 

Our intention is to better support those who may struggle with audio cues by improving accessibility and gamemode design.

A sound option for the demolysts noises, without adjusting everything else would be another amazing change.  

 

[Darazio]

On 2024-03-21 at 12:22 AM, Digital-Dreams said:

Would it not be easier to make the Decoy invulnerable? That would solve the issue of it dying too quickly by making it not die at all, plus it would mean that negative strength builds would not be a detriment to Decoy (if it is not subsumed over).

^THIS Thank you, finally some one said it. I don't see the point of it having any health to begin with.

[Pideusnomy]

On 2024-03-13 at 6:51 PM, Zedar451 said:

Could you clarify what will happen with our 5 Netracell "credits" when these changes + Deep Archimidea go live?

What I'm getting at is, should we plan to hold our "credits" for that week until the 27th to take advantage of the new stuff? Or will there be a mid-week reset, or maybe a delay in the changes taking effect until the next weekly reset?

 

 

Greetings, I seem to have missed this info as well:
- The next Netracell weekly ID starts tomorrow, Monday March 25th
- Dante Unbound starts Wednesday March 27th, including (?) the new Deep Archimedia mission

Since you need to "sacrifice" two Netracell runs to acquire a go for the Deep Archimedia mission,
there are a few possible scenarios:

- You use your five Netracell runs on Monday or Tuesday and will have to wait for the next ID starting April 1st
- You use your five Netracell runs on Monday or Tuesday, but the counter is being reset with the release of Dante Unbound
- You save your Netracell runs and can start to go on Deep Archimedia missions on launch day of Dante Unbound
- You save your Netracell runs and wasted them because the counter is being reset with the release of Dante Unbound
- Deep Archimedia is being bound to the regular weekly reset and starts not on launch day (March 27th) but on weekly reset (April 1st),
  in which case it doesn't matter if you use or safe your Netracell runs - you'll use them anytime within the next weekly ID

I'd like to know in advance which of the above scenarios is correct to plan accordingly.

Thanks a lot and Cheers!

 

Edited March 24 by Pideusnomy
Typo

[spider_enigma]

On 2024-03-23 at 12:20 AM, GrumpyPants said:

Eclipse is very strong on mirage, partly because she is designed in a way that while using the damage buff from eclipse she is very, VERY frail. Rhino is exactly the opposite. Mirage is allowed a greater multiplier in exchange for the added risk of playing such a frail frame. It's true that the buffs work differently, but the difference isn't that massive. Both Eclipse and Roar multiply the damage your weapon deals. If a shot normally does 100 damage, either one of them will increase the damage to 130.

While eclipse acts as its own multiplier, roar counts as faction damage. This means if using it against Grineer with a Primed Bane of Grineer equipped, the abilities multiply differently.

Eclipse damage is 100 * 1.55 (faction damage) * 1.3 (eclipse) = 201.5
Roar damage is 100 * (1 + 0.55(faction mod) + 0.3(roar)) = 185

If using a faction mod, Eclipse actually increases damage more than roar. The problem shows itself when you start looking at status procs like bleed and heat. Status effects deal damage each tick based on the modded base damage of the attack that applies them. Modded base damage includes both roar and eclipse in its calculation. The difference is that the damage of each tick is multiplied by faction damage a second time, meaning bleed and heat effects benefit more from roar than they do eclipse.

Using the above calculations as base damage we can see how this affects the resulting proc damage. Bleed status effects do 0.35x the modded base damage per tick before faction damage multipliers.

Eclipse bleed = 0.35 * 201.5(modded base damage) * 1.55(faction damage) = 109.3
Roar bleed = 0.35 * 185(modded base damage) * 1.85(faction damage) = 119.8

Given bleed and heat are used in most of the best DPS builds in the game, eclipse simply isn't competitive with roar on meta builds. Note that the above example may be close in damage but it does not use any ability strength, and is also using a primed faction damage mod which stacks additively with roar. Increasing ability strength, or removing the faction damage mod widen the gap in damage between the two significantly. To figure out how much strength is appropriate you can simply try using a different multiplier for eclipse. If we try your suggestion of 90% lets see how it changes. To give roar as significant an advantage as possible there will be no faction mod this time, and ability strength will be 300%.

Eclipse modded base damage is 100 * 3.7(eclipse)= 370
Roar modded base damage is 100 * 1.9(roar) = 190

Eclipse bleed = 0.35 * 370(modded base damage) = 129.5
Roar bleed = 0.35 * 190(modded base damage) * 1.9(roar) = 126.35

Even in an ideal situation roar would never be competitive with eclipse if it had a base of 90%. Eclipse is also cheaper, able to be recast, and provides an (albeit somewhat underwhelming) defensive option. A much more appropriate base for eclipse would be 50%. This allows eclipse to be a more effective option that roar on non-status builds, and perform roughly on par with roar in combination with faction damage mods. Roar would still be better for raw damage on meta builds, but eclipse would be close enough that the convenience of its cheaper energy cost and ability to be recast might still make it the better overall choice for some players.

Note: All the math is based on a hypothetical gun that does 100 damage. Crits, base damage mods etc. all interact with roar and eclipse in the same way so they don't really make a difference to the math here. The idea is just to show a comparison between how the two multiply damage on the same weapon.

thats assuming that the rhino uses faction mods instead of not using them and putting more damage in the first place

that math doesn't work

[moondog548]

On 2024-03-13 at 12:57 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Our intention is to better support those who may struggle with audio cues by improving accessibility and gamemode design

THANK YOU FINALLY! :D