Gauss is Too Slow and Easily Outclassed in Speed

[GargoyIe]

On 2024-03-29 at 12:09 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

but in Lore Atlas punched an entire asteroid base into pieces and he notably does not do that in game.

Atlas example is not a good one here, if you are playing atlas you are probably one punching things just like he does in the lore. The only reason he can't punch an asteroid base to pieces in the game is the fact that there are no asteroid bases in the game.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 5 horas, GargoyIe dijo:

Atlas example is not a good one here, if you are playing atlas you are probably one punching things just like he does in the lore. The only reason he can't punch an asteroid base to pieces in the game is the fact that there are no asteroid bases in the game.

And Grineer bases on asteroids?

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 hours ago, GargoyIe said:

Atlas example is not a good one here, if you are playing atlas you are probably one punching things just like he does in the lore. The only reason he can't punch an asteroid base to pieces in the game is the fact that there are no asteroid bases in the game.

Literally a tile set called 'Grineer Asteroid' both in the game files and in the official release of it back in around the closed beta after the game stopped running every mission on Corpus Ships.

Also actual asteroid bases in Railjack for the last few years where we can jump out of the Railjack into our Archwings and approach them from the outside...

I don't know what game you've been playing if you can make that statement unironically...

[Venmere]

On 2024-04-04 at 3:37 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Because you haven't provided valid reasons for this change to be made. You've provided the opinion that it should. Why would DE follow your third step when there are legitimate reasons against doing so?

If the legitimist valid reason you are looking for is one to suggest that it is an actual problem that ruins the functionality of the game, then I think you misunderstood the post. The point was that Gauss is seen as underwhelming or disappointing when it comes to entertainment which is opinionated, and validity is to each their own meaning it doesn't matter. Depending on how many people will actually bring it up to DE determines whether it is logically valid in their eyes as a design choice.

 

On 2024-04-04 at 3:37 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's short for a 'Forum of your Peers'.

Yeah, more peers that agree and petition the request than the more likely DE would be to consider it. Is that not how discussing it with others works when asking for support?

 

On 2024-04-04 at 3:37 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Never said it wasn't eligible as a request.

You stated that it was unnecessary, and that the DE had too much work for something like this, then said that a request that is completely opinionated because it was for an entertainment improvement was wining when it is literally DE's job to make video games people will enjoy. The only reason DE should consider it is if enough people try to petition this reasoning for a change. Or how many people would agree to "it would be cool if," which is reasonable on its own right for asking anything of a game because it wouldn't really be fun if nothing about it was cool.

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

If the legitimist valid reason you are looking for is one to suggest that it is an actual problem that ruins the functionality of the game, then I think you misunderstood the post

No, the legitimate reason is usually something like 'If you push this stat higher, we can now achieve X' or 'It would be logical if we could push it higher because we could then add this other buff.'

Not being satisfied that a stat isn't higher is not a legitimate reason for it to be changed. Because that's an opinion, countered by the first person who thinks it's fine.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

Yeah, more peers that agree and petition the request than the more likely DE would be to consider it. Is that not how discussing it with others works when asking for support?

And how many people are agreeing with you versus disagreeing with you?

I'm doing it for the sake of an argument that I can then say 'Sure, that's a good reason, let me join you in asking for it'.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

You stated that it was unnecessary

It is. Without something to say why it should change, beyond a complaint that it isn't that way already.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

that the DE had too much work for something like this

They do. That's a no-brainer, they would rather release new content than fix old content, and they're currently pushing for their next content release before June.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

a request that is completely opinionated because it was for an entertainment improvement was wining

It is.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

when it is literally DE's job to make video games people will enjoy

And, as asked before, what if more people enjoy him as he is now? Then they don't even have to do anything at all.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

The only reason DE should consider it is if enough people try to petition this reasoning for a change.

That's patently false. They have literally refused changes that were requested despite players asking for those changes since the release of the system the requests are based on, and have re-iterated their refusals over and over. An example is the 'give Warframes a dedicated slot for Augments', which they have outright said 'no' to over and over, despite it being asked for on a level that's actually had the topic brought up on DevStreams and in their live appearances.

DE do not have to listen to feedback. They do listen, a lot, and many changes have been made pre-emptively to upcoming releases based on player feedback on their previews.

But they don't have to.

16 hours ago, Venmere said:

"it would be cool if," which is reasonable on its own right

It's a reasonable opinion. It's not always a reasonable request.

You see the difference?

Opinions are things like 'it would be cool if' and 'I feel this isn't good enough'.

Requests are things that need to be 'reasonable', as in, having actual reasons behind them.

Even one as simple as 'I think Gauss should have bonuses to his abilities based on his Sprint Speed, just like Inaros has bonus to his 4's damage based on how high his Maximum Health is, so let's make Gauss have a better Sprint Speed.'

That would work.

That would be a reason, a legitimate reason to ask for the change.

The opinion of 'I think he's too slow' is just... asking for them to say 'And?' or 'So?' Because the very next person could say the opposite.

[Venmere]

28 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's a reasonable opinion. It's not always a reasonable request.

I gave plenty of reasons why it was reasonable. It is not asking for something like an augment slot that could change the functionality of the game, neither is it requesting a timely and costly feature to add as it is not that much work for such a simple request.

30 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That's patently false. They have literally refused changes that were requested despite players asking for those changes

Pablo actively reworked Hydroid and Inaros which were heavily requested warframe for a rework. It is not like I am asking for an entire warframe rework.

32 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And, as asked before, what if more people enjoy him as he is now?

The request isn't going to affect the people who like him how he is now. It would only accommodate for the people who were hoping for more. You would have to specifically ask if people want to be able to make Gauss go faster not is Gauss fun right now or is he not.

[Mr.Holyroller]

Gauss is fast enough for me. 
Anymore speed than what I have right now and it would be kinda disorienting. I learned that mistake when I ran razorwing blitz on like a 300% power str titani and proceeded go accross rooms with one tap

[Venmere]

3 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Gauss is fast enough for me.

The request is to add a slider players can use in Mach Rush to increase the speed should the player want it or just want to use it for travel in open world instead of an archwing.

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, Venmere said:

I gave plenty of reasons why it was reasonable

You gave plenty of opinions.

19 hours ago, Venmere said:

Pablo actively reworked Hydroid and Inaros which were heavily requested warframe for a rework. It is not like I am asking for an entire warframe rework.

1. Supremely impressed how you reacted like that, despite the very next sentence being a full explanation that they do listen to feedback, but that they don't listen to all feedback and they don't have to.

2. Frame reworks are par for the course, the least used frames get reworks over time. Gauss is one of the most used frames, with one of the most cohesive kits in the game.

19 hours ago, Venmere said:

The request isn't going to affect the people who like him how he is now.

Yes it is. Because DE don't do 'speed sliders'. They don't do anything sliders when it comes to modded stats.

Sprint speed is a modded stat, and that's what mods are for; affecting the stat in question. The only two ways that DE would increase Gauss' speed is either to increase his base sprint speed, so it can be modded higher and affect his Mach Rush better, or they would tweak Mach Rush itself to be faster.

That's it. The change you actually want (the slider) is not how DE buffs or changes frames. Not in their entire history. And they have actually said why they don't do changes like that for individual Warframes too; it's because they want to ensure, as in completely ensure, that two players can go into a mission with the same mod setup on their frames and have exactly the same performance with that frame. No case of there being some setting in the menu where you can suddenly make Gauss go faster without adding extra mods, just as there's no case of a slider that would allow Armour to scale higher.

Again, I'm just waiting on you finding an actual reason to make this change.

'Wouldn't it be cool if' is a great opinion. It's not a reason for change.

[pisces13]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yes it is. Because DE don't do 'speed sliders'. They don't do anything sliders when it comes to modded stats.

Sprint speed is a modded stat, and that's what mods are for; affecting the stat in question. The only two ways that DE would increase Gauss' speed is either to increase his base sprint speed, so it can be modded higher and affect his Mach Rush better, or they would tweak Mach Rush itself to be faster.

The problem is modding for sprint speed barely does much for mach rush. Even with 200% extra sprint speed from infested mobility, mach rush values are completely trash. What we speedsters want is for the speed multiplier to be increased. 

And it makes no sense for redline to not have sprint speed when it increases the speed of every other actionable stat. No justice for Gauss.

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, pisces13 said:

And it makes no sense for redline to not have sprint speed when it increases the speed of every other actionable stat. No justice for Gauss.

See? Now this is a reasoned request for change. Why does Redline, a buff to all of his abilities, not make something like Sprint Speed faster when above the Redline?

It buffs everything else, this is arguably an oversight in the ability, and we could get an update to include it on the buffed functions.

Rather than OP's 'eh, I think it would be good to go faster', this is a point you can raise as:

'I think that there's been an oversight in Gauss' 4th ability and it should also buff Sprint Speed as part of the ability. To make it fair, it could be limited to when he's above the Redline, or even only buff his speed based on the Battery charge, with 0 Battery not providing any buff while the Ability is active. But I feel that a frame based around raising his own functions with his Speed Abilities, should have the option to self-buff his own speed with his self-buff Ability.'

[Venmere]

22 hours ago, pisces13 said:

What we speedsters want is for the speed multiplier to be increased. 

I agree with this as well but the issue I see is if you want to slow down as well you would be locked at hyper speed if you modded for it.

As for DE not using sliders, Hydroid use to charge up his shots and a few other warframes use abilities that can be charged up as well. There are also arcane like flare where you can charge up damage with heat and lower it if you don't want damage for whatever reason. Not to mention being able to toggle sprint.
DE technically already has assets to charge up sprint speed if they wanted.

[Birdframe_Prime]

25 minutes ago, Venmere said:

As for DE not using sliders, Hydroid use to charge up his shots and a few other warframes use abilities that can be charged up as well.

Hah! This is not what you asked for, and a 'slider' is 100% not what the function you're describing is.

You said a 'slider', like a setting slider for something like a 'Field of View Slider'.

A 'charge mechanic' is something entirely different, and also a functional change to one of his abilities, which is still not what you asked for because you just said you think that Gauss is too slow and should be faster. You just suggested that Mach Rush gets faster and faster, for no tangible reason, just because he's not fast enough in your opinion.

pisces13 suggested a change which is couched in a good reason for the change; that the Redline Ability is a comprehensive buff to his Abilities and Stats, and should arguably buff Speed as well because it's pretty much the only stat it doesn't affect that is completely on theme for the Ability to affect.

That's a reasonable ask. That has something behind it that you could push the Devs with to make a change.

[Venmere]

On 2024-04-18 at 5:48 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

A 'charge mechanic' is something entirely different,

They both use value dilation which is why I am referring its code as a reusable asset because DE can practically copy and paste it.

[Venmere]

On 2024-04-18 at 5:48 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Redline Ability is a comprehensive buff to his Abilities and Stats

Not that it is well explained but Redline armor strips with Gauss's third when creating blast at varying levels depending on battery level and scales with duration.
Giving it sprint speed would be a good addition, but the issue is Mach rush mostly and not Gauss as a whole.

Edited May 6 by Venmere

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, Venmere said:

They both use value dilation which is why I am referring its code as a reusable asset because DE can practically copy and paste it.

3 hours ago, Venmere said:

Not that it is well explained but Redline armor strips with Gauss's third when creating blast at varying levels depending on battery level and scales with duration.
Giving it sprint speed would be a good addition, but the issue is Mach rush mostly and not Gauss as a whole.

3 weeks and all you can do is repeat yourself?

3 weeks and you can't even do what the other commenter did and give a reason for this change to happen? Even a flimsy one? An actual starter?

Why are you even here again with that?

[Venmere]

On 2024-05-06 at 9:01 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

3 weeks and you can't even do what the other commenter did and give a reason for this change to happen?

Their reasoning was the same as mine, Gauss isn't that fast and can't be made that fast either. I just don't think you like me very much, how rude.

On 2024-05-06 at 9:01 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why are you even here again with that?

You came to comment on my thread?

On 2024-05-06 at 9:01 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

3 weeks and all you can do is repeat yourself?

That was the first time I ever mentioned Redline



As I've said, if I were replying in a timely manner this wouldn't have been a 3-week conversation (probably). None the less, if we want to talk about repetitiveness, if I refute things you say, and your counterargument is to call this pointless, repetitively say that I make invalid arguments when all I've ever done is present logical arguments, and your only reason being that it is unnecessary when the entire thread wasn't based on a necessary change. I would say 1. That's rude & 2. How annoying.
I only have never addressed this behavior directly because it is completely off topic and only now because as you've acknowledged there is nowhere else for this thread to go other than the primitive of my point and your idea that it makes no sense. I don't actually fully understand if you have a take on this because you've never presented a solution of your own on how DE could do this reasonably in terms of a rework to Mach Rush. You've rather mostly argued semantics and not the main point of the thread. By definition I would say your arguments have been invalid and I would rather be done with this thread because the conversation is pretty much complete without arguing off topic.

Edited May 7 by Venmere

[Venus-Venera]

Am 20.3.2024 um 04:42 schrieb Venmere:

Gauss seems fast but really isn't and is difficult to mod into speed in comparison to other warframes. For example, Volt can easily achieve faster speeds with ability strength that is much higher than Gauss's.

A list of some warframes that easily achieve speeds faster than Gauss's Mach Rush even when well modded into sprint speed:

• Volt [Ability strength and Infested Mobility subsume using]
• Voruna [Parkour speed and Shroud of Dynar parkour velocity with bullet jump]
• Hydroid [Casting speed and ability range with Tidal Surge]
• Zephyr [Using Tail Wind although I am not sure if this can be made faster, but it already goes about as fast if not already faster than Mach Rush]
• Wukong [Using Cloud Walker and similar methods to Hydroid]
• Titania [Using Razorwing and similar methods to Volt]
• Excalibur [Slash Dash melee cancel can fling the player at extreme speeds as well as can be modded to be faster than Mach Rush potentially]
• Grendel [Even Grendel in Pulverize with parkour speed can gain much higher momentum than Mach Rush]
• Not really including archwings but they are more preferred for open world travel.

Some of the warframe with parkour speed mods and yellow archon shards reach speed on much higher scales than Mach Rush when well-focused into sprint speed.  This along with Gauss Prime's trailer advertising him as being extremely faster than a bullet almost feel betraying and falsely advertised as he does not reach nearly as high speeds.

Addressing the issue with moving too fast in Warframe

Yes, being fast is fun but you have probably already noticed that going to fast in the game can affect how the ability to react and control your character in order to play. I honestly think that if a player chooses to be this fast in the game that if they can manage the skill to move this fast, they should be rewarded.

My solution to this issue would be to increase the speed and scaling of sprint speed for Mach Rush extremely but, start its speed at the normal threshold and allow the player to adjust the speed of Mach Rush using right/left click or right/left trigger to increase and decrease speed to reward those who want to go that fast and those who might want to use Mach Rush when traveling in open world.

Ultimately adding a way to adjust speed in Mach Rush would make Gauss as fast as he is intended to look and give players the speed they actually want without making Gauss too difficult to control or mess with current modding systems.

A side note of features that I believe would make Gauss more enjoyable without altering his functions.

Here is a list of things that would make Gauss more entertaining in my opinion:

• Custom parkour animations, I would like to see him have more sprinting based parkour like dashes forward etc.
• Mach Rush can be difficult getting over small objects that you may have constantly crashed into, so why not decrease his collision box into a small dot that can also move down when sliding and when Gauss visually appears to be about to hit something have him be animated to do a high-speed leap over it; kind of like what is seen with him dodging through the door crack in his prime trailer.
• When evasion activates in Mach Rush have Gauss visibly do a blurry dodge to visualize how fast he is moving during Mach Rush

To summarize, just animated visual changes to Gauss to emphasize how fast he moves and make him more entertaining to watch/use as well as a collision quality of life change for Mach Rush.

wukong is definitely slower than gauss. and I play with wukong very often. wukong is just easy to control.
and wukong is definitely not a speed runner. it is faster than normal warframes. but significantly slower than speed runners like Titania. he can never keep up with that

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, Venmere said:

Their reasoning was the same as mine, Gauss isn't that fast and can't be made that fast either. I just don't think you like me very much, how rude.

No it was not.

They gave a suggestion for why he can be made that fast, instead of just 'well, I would like it'.

The very fact that you can't see the difference, and can't emulated it, is why I keep coming back to put in the opposite view point.

[Venmere]

4 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

wukong is definitely slower than gauss.

I probably didn't look into that one very well.

[Venmere]

On 2024-04-17 at 6:51 PM, pisces13 said:

What we speedsters want is for the speed multiplier to be increased. 

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No it was not.

Yes, it was.

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

They gave a suggestion for why he can be made that fast

^ They said Gauss couldn't get enough speed

On 2024-04-17 at 6:51 PM, pisces13 said:

The problem is modding for sprint speed barely does much for mach rush. Even with 200% extra sprint speed from infested mobility, mach rush values are completely trash.

It was simply a different solution to the same point of because we want it.
But my other reasoning is that Mach Rush is not effective for open world travel that I mentioned earlier in comparison to archwings which is rather why I want Mach Rush speed to be adjustable for both travel and combat.

Edited May 8 by Venmere

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Venmere said:

Yes, it was.

You really just like to cherry pick:

They said they want the speed multiplier of Redline to be increased, because it makes no sense for Redline not to multiply speed.

What you said was you just want his Sprint Speed to be increased. With no reason other than 'it would be cool'.

And even with prompting for a reason, the only one you've come remotely close to is that it isn't as fast as Archwings in the Open Landscapes, which is not what the ability is for.

What makes no sense is having an adjustable speed value for open landscapes. That's nonsense. That has absolutely no reason to exist. Because in the Open Landscapes you are supposed to use vehicles of one kind or another to move faster than Warframe movement allows.

If Gauss doesn't move faster than a full-speed K-Drive or Archwing, that's deliberate to make those vehicles relevant.

[Venmere]

On 2024-05-08 at 6:43 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

They said they want the speed multiplier of Redline to be increased, because it makes no sense for Redline not to multiply speed.

Well, it makes no sense for Gauss to be slower than advertised by this logic. Also, Redline adding sprint speed just because it increases other speeds isn't much of a reason either. It is more like why DE doesn't do it which applies to my post as well and ultimately it is just to have more speed which is also the purpose of my post. It is also why I agree with this solution as well, but the issue is this implementation would not be adjustable and might offset players at an uncomfortable speed that they may not want because they just want the other buffs. The other issue is that DE likely wouldn't add that much of an increase as some people would like if they did. There is a reason that using Mach Rush doesn't increase the battery charge rate, only sprinting does, and it is for the flexibility of how the player wants to use the warframe.

On 2024-05-08 at 6:43 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

What you said was you just want his Sprint Speed to be increased. With no reason other than 'it would be cool'.

You keep saying that, I said Mach Rush speed scaling should be adjustable while active for 1. combat to open world travel utility 2. The title of this post. 3. Gauss is advertised as going faster than he is able to.

On 2024-05-08 at 6:43 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

What makes no sense is having an adjustable speed value for open landscapes. That's nonsense. That has absolutely no reason to exist. Because in the Open Landscapes you are supposed to use vehicles of one kind or another to move faster than Warframe movement allows.

So, it makes more sense for Redline to give more speed for what? Just to go fast? Why go fast with the speedster warframe? I guess because that is what he is intended to do but why choose a speedster warframe for speed if he isn't that good for it. Redline giving speed doesn't mean he needs it. Gauss doesn't even need speed at all let alone any warframe but that is what he is designed to do. The problem is he doesn't even specialize in what he is intended for.
What doesn't make sense is that Gauss is intentionally made to go fast and advertised as such but isn't able to go faster than 85mph without using infested mobility and that only allows him to reach about 170mph (high speeds in a sports car) with the cost of the warframe not being able to function in combat and energy issues beyond belief. He can't specialize in speed if multiple warframes outclass him. I could say the same for Rhino (armor and ease of tanking), Volt (electricity), and Oberon (radiation).
DE gives vehicles for travel as intended but does not say you're supposed to use them; they don't really tell players how they should play to begin with and even endorse creating unique builds. DE only implies that's what things are for and make it easy to do that with them which is what they don't do for several warframes.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Venmere said:

Well, it makes no sense for Gauss to be slower than advertised by this logic

And how fast is ‘advertised’?

By your logic, then, there’s a dozen frames that need to be slowed down, too.

An Ability changing sprint speed is logical. A toggle in the menu changing it is not.

I don’t see how you’re so absolutely fixated on the ‘because I say so’ argument. When there are perfectly logical ‘because the Ability has these existing functions and it’s weird that one specific function is left out’ arguments.

9 hours ago, Venmere said:

Gauss doesn't even need speed at all let alone any warframe

This is exactly my point. Except you’re wrong on one important note: he’s not designed to go fast.

He’s designed to have functions that work with, and are based on, movement.

Considering his actual functions, running fast isn’t even helpful, because it more often takes him out of fights he wants to stay in, since the game is 0.1% moving through open landscapes, and the remaining game is about small tile sets with around half the mission tasks based around stationary objectives.

He doesn’t need it. He may not even want it. That’s why I’ve been arguing with you this long that a reason, even the flimsiest one, is needed to change it.

Even a single reason that wasn’t based on your pure and biased opinion would do. And you’ve consistently argued that only your opinion is necessary.

It doesn’t make sense for him to go this slow? It’s a game where going faster isn’t needed.

Multiple people on multiple threads have come up with a dozen or more arguments that improve Gauss’ speed.

You are the only one that has specifically spent months saying that your opinion is a valid reason. 

[Venmere]

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And how fast is ‘advertised’?

Apparently faster than a bullet, which makes gauss moving about 2000mph. That is bad in gameplay, so it is represented as evasion during Mach Rush, I suggested that it could be animated with him blurring out when bullets are evaded just because it would look cool. I would like it if Mach Rush could be adjusted up to that at most. That is about 894.5 m/per sec with Mach Rush or about 23.8x faster. To make it easier to build him for that speed I would say Mach Rush should be adjustable to 25x faster.

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

This is exactly my point. Except you’re wrong on one important note: he’s not designed to go fast.

 

He is literally designed around going fast; He has the highest default sprint speed, two abilities that make him faster, and a leverian story about him being really fast. Redline even charges faster based on if you're sprinting, and he gets evasion in Mach Rush to show he is harder to hit. Open world isn't the only game mode where speed is useful and especially since speed is used for farming certain missions as well. 

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A toggle in the menu changing it is not.

I never said a toggle in the menu, I said you should be able to press right/left click (or right/left trigger) to adjust Mach Rush speed (not sprint speed). It would make Mach Rush more versatile and accommodate multiple play styles (though you can just subsume it anyways).

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I don’t see how you’re so absolutely fixated on the ‘because I say so’ argument. When there are perfectly logical ‘because the Ability has these existing functions and it’s weird that one specific function is left out’ arguments.

Okay, these existing features that are already accommodating should have more features that are similar because you said so? Get some other people to agree with you on that one and make your own post; Redline was never in need of a rework and adding speed is redundant if the ability that needs more of it can just have it added directly.

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You are the only one that has specifically spent months saying that your opinion is a valid reason.

That is a hypocritical statement, and even if you do prove this it would just mean you're chronically on the forums.

9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

By your logic, then, there’s a dozen frames that need to be slowed down, too.

I don't see a problem with it, though that doesn't fill in my other reasons. Ideally just making Gauss reach the same speeds as other warframes without sacrificing utility would be nice.

Edited May 13 by Venmere