incarnons and headshot charging

[quxier]

46 minutes ago, aivastus said:

Like, if it sucks to use Incarnon Strun in normal missions, then what did they use before Incarnons? To me it sounds they just swapped from Ogris, and now they feel naked because the tasty incarnon-mode doesn't come for free.

Maybe they haven't used those weapons?

For me, in lots of cases, charging incarnon mode is just for make us weaker (for some time). It's especially case with Zariman's guns. I've asking myself "why would I use base form?". There are better way to make us not powerful all the time. For example you can have "on headshot" effect like Zymos'.

ps. it's not that I cannot charge incarnon mode fast enough - I just don't find that mechanic fun/engaging.

[(XBOX)Varzin]

I'm all for charging incarnons with literally anything other then headshots since, given the way I play, I don't even try landing headshots normally (mostly melee with a focus on guns that don't require precision like the Ferrox and Cycron). As it stands I ignore gun incarnon forms completely since I don't like having to slow down and aim just to charge up a form that will run out quickly anyway. Having a smoother way to charge incarnon forms that I can more easily integrate in my playstyle will make trying incarnon forms a lot more enticing to me.

[aivastus]

6 hours ago, quxier said:

For me, in lots of cases, charging incarnon mode is just for make us weaker (for some time). It's especially case with Zariman's guns. I've asking myself "why would I use base form?". There are better way to make us not powerful all the time. For example you can have "on headshot" effect like Zymos'.

This would be fine if the "base form" wasn't what most regular weapons already are for the entire mission. If charging was made easier (let's say bodyshots also give charge), then Incarnons would be simply best-in-slot, regardless of the context in which they are used, or who is using them. I haven't seen anyone suggest how to solve that.

Reduce the overall charge gain? Then you'd have to use the base form even more.

Nerf the damage? So u have Incarnon all the time, but it's weak? Idk.

Also. I haven't seen many people fight for getting Zymos client-bugs fixed. Maybe we need a Zymos meta, where Zymos is the new Torid. Because I guarantee if that happened, someone would ask to remove the "on headshot" condition to boost their KPM.

Edited March 26 by aivastus

[quxier]

54 minutes ago, aivastus said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

For me, in lots of cases, charging incarnon mode is just for make us weaker (for some time). It's especially case with Zariman's guns. I've asking myself "why would I use base form?". There are better way to make us not powerful all the time. For example you can have "on headshot" effect like Zymos'.

This would be fine if the "base form" wasn't what most regular weapons already are for the entire mission. If charging was made easier (let's say bodyshots also give charge), then Incarnons would be simply best-in-slot, regardless of the context in which they are used, or who is using them. I haven't seen anyone suggest how to solve that.

Reduce the overall charge gain? Then you'd have to use the base form even more.

Nerf the damage? So u have Incarnon all the time, but it's weak? Idk.

Also. I haven't seen many people fight for getting Zymos client-bugs fixed. Maybe we need a Zymos meta where Zymos is the new Torid. I guarantee if that happened, someone would ask to remove the "on headshot" condition to boost their KPM for free.

I believe lots of incarnons should be built-in (no need to change).

Say, you have Stalker's bow. It shoots some wide projectile. Make it shoot it all the time. Direct headshots increase size of projectile (and some other stuff). You can still select perks. Maybe main perk (in this case projectile size) can be selected as well (so have old method of charging if you want). By doing so you can make game much more fluid.

As for other incarnons that changes HOW they function (not just make it better/faster), they can change it into efficiency. So at the mission start you have 1% efficiency (the lowest). You can change into incarnon form and use incarnon form but with that efficiency (1% in that case). So you weapon would be only 1% strong (in this case). However you can charge your weapon (via headshots or other methods) to increase your efficiency. So let's say 20 headshots. When you change into incarnon form you are at 100% efficiency. Your weapon deal 100% damage (& other stuff). Every 20 shots you decrease your efficiency by 1% (down to 1% minimum). 

ps. similar can be done with melees - heavies just boost your "incarnon form".

[Firaxion]

There is this problem that has never been addressed:

 

 

Incarnon charge rate was stealth-nerfed in a post-Duviri update and the problem was never fully acknowledged/fix is still in secret works (??highly unlikely imo at this point).

 

The change to charge rate was like night and day, I was actually hugely surprised that more people did not notice at the time. It was the first thing i noticed.

 

The problem (i suspect) was caused by an attempt to fix the Torid charging its incarnon form on dead enemies.

Whilst that problem was solved, it also made all incarnons much MUCH worse compared to their previous power levels (despite still being pretty damn powerful).

 

Don't believe me? Go take a incarnon torid in a lvl 10 mission, and check its charge rate. Body shots of any description will charge fine, easy easy charge. super fast.

Then take any other incarnon weapon to the same lvl mission, and charge it exactly the same way.

You will get PEANUTS charge for the far harder HEADSHOT requirement.

 

BEFORE the stealth nerf change (in the forum i listed above), ALL incarnons charged at the same rate as the Torid CURRENTLY does (and the Torid was even more super fast because obviously any body shots and corpse shots counted).

 

I thought this was stupid as heck because it was far, FAR better before, and quite frankly, who cares if the torid charges off corpses (it is already SUPER easy to charge anyhow).

 

I dont even LIKE incarnon weapons AT ALL really, but this steath nerf SUPER pissed me off at the time. The lack of logic or consistency of weapon meta for more than a year + previously to incarnons did my head in.

 

Apparently the answer from DE so far is simply: Ah the Torid is OP gun. To solve problem we nerf all other guns: so use Torid. 

 

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I also mentioned this problem to a specific tech warframe twitcher (one who is highly numbers focused and gives strongly opinionated "optimal strat" guides). He was extremely rude and asked me "what do YOU think the problem is?". I answered, and his response was "yeah i know, we just talked about it, of course DE knows as well, so do you think its worth being so very concerned about?"

Well, not only is he a total #$&(%, but the man who likes being right all the time, was also totally wrong.

 

No fix, no acknowledgement, not even stating this is "as intended" from DE (which i would reluctantly accept as "by design"). Nothing. 

 

Apparently everyone has forgotten the kuva weapons ammo re-balance.

All these bleeding re-balance attempts up to this point have simply made meta problems WORSE.

 

bleh its so frustrating... using whatever gun "is broken OP" because of poor number consistency during development is so dull...

[aivastus]

7 minutes ago, Firaxion said:

There is this problem that has never been addressed:

 

 

Incarnon charge rate was stealth-nerfed in a post-Duviri update and the problem was never fully acknowledged/fix is still in secret works (??highly unlikely imo at this point).

 

The change to charge rate was like night and day, I was actually hugely surprised that more people did not notice at the time. It was the first thing i noticed.

 

The problem (i suspect) was caused by an attempt to fix the Torid charging its incarnon form on dead enemies.

Whilst that problem was solved, it also made all incarnons much MUCH worse compared to their previous power levels (despite still being pretty damn powerful).

 

Don't believe me? Go take a incarnon torid in a lvl 10 mission, and check its charge rate. Body shots of any description will charge fine, easy easy charge. super fast.

Then take any other incarnon weapon to the same lvl mission, and charge it exactly the same way.

You will get PEANUTS charge for the far harder HEADSHOT requirement.

 

BEFORE the stealth nerf change (in the forum i listed above), ALL incarnons charged at the same rate as the Torid CURRENTLY does (and the Torid was even more super fast because obviously any body shots and corpse shots counted).

 

I thought this was stupid as heck because it was far, FAR better before, and quite frankly, who cares if the torid charges off corpses (it is already SUPER easy to charge anyhow).

 

I dont even LIKE incarnon weapons AT ALL really, but this steath nerf SUPER pissed me off at the time. The lack of logic or consistency of weapon meta for more than a year + previously to incarnons did my head in.

 

Apparently the answer from DE so far is simply: Ah the Torid is OP gun. To solve problem we nerf all other guns: so use Torid. 

 

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I also mentioned this problem to a specific tech warframe twitcher (one who is highly numbers focused and gives strongly opinionated "optimal strat" guides). He was extremely rude and asked me "what do YOU think the problem is?". I answered, and his response was "yeah i know, we just talked about it, of course DE knows as well, so do you think its worth being so very concerned about?"

Well, not only is he a total #$&(%, but the man who likes being right all the time, was also totally wrong.

 

No fix, no acknowledgement, not even stating this is "as intended" from DE (which i would reluctantly accept as "by design"). Nothing. 

 

Apparently everyone has forgotten the kuva weapons ammo re-balance.

All these bleeding re-balance attempts up to this point have simply made meta problems WORSE.

 

bleh its so frustrating... using whatever gun "is broken OP" because of poor number consistency during development is so dull...

That kinda explains a lot, but it also doesn't feel like a bad thing except for consistency between weapons. I came back to the game in the winter, so I never experienced the Incarnons at launch. To me, they were just ridiculously strong overall (even the Braton), so I assumed "right, multishot doesn't grant charge if one of the projectiles is enough to kill the enemy, fair enough". 2 years ago, you'd be headshotting enemies left and right with Kuva Karak or something, and still do piss poor damage compared to any dude with pre-nerf [Condition Overload] on melee, or just Zarr/Bramma that never ran out of ammo (if it wasn't SP).

In that context, it seems fair u don't get charge if the target dies to one projectile, because none of the regular firearms that were fairly mid back then have been buffed. It doesn't make sense in the case of Torid however (and probably Angstrum too?).

[spider_enigma]

14 hours ago, Pakaku said:

I haven't noticed any taking an excessive amount of time to charge

that was the point i tried to bring up to him, and and he showed that u get 1/10th of a charge if u killed nadh alf a charge ifu  didnt because all the pellets would jsut fizzle as if hey ddint hit if it died witch was his entire point, that y work to get a gun charged for a beam to kill stuff, when he could jsut bring a gun that was already a chaining beam

and i tried to explain to him that the guns issue wasnt its charge but that it did too much damage for the level of content he was fighting

and i also tried to tell hm that the incarnon adapator isnt just about the transformation and he just ignored that part of the argument entirely lol

"why bring this when i can use this secondary beam gun instead"

its a primary first off so bring both lol....

[spider_enigma]

2 hours ago, Firaxion said:

There is this problem that has never been addressed:

 

 

Incarnon charge rate was stealth-nerfed in a post-Duviri update and the problem was never fully acknowledged/fix is still in secret works (??highly unlikely imo at this point).

The problem (i suspect) was caused by an attempt to fix the Torid charging its incarnon form on dead enemies.

 

I also mentioned this problem to a specific tech warframe twitcher (one who is highly numbers focused and gives strongly opinionated "optimal strat" guides). He was extremely rude and asked me "what do YOU think the problem is?". I answered, and his response was "yeah i know, we just talked about it, of course DE knows as well, so do you think its worth being so very concerned about?"

Well, not only is he a total #$&(%, but the man who likes being right all the time, was also totally wrong.

 

No fix, no acknowledgement, not even stating this is "as intended" from DE (which i would reluctantly accept as "by design"). Nothing.

bleh its so frustrating... using whatever gun "is broken OP" because of poor number consistency during development is so dull...

i completely forgot that the reason the pellets fizzle was a byproduct of the torid fix, that explains alot

[0_The_F00l]

I do think more options for triggers would be nice , though I don't face any challenges with things as they are now.

But what i wouldn't mind is some means to charge the incarnon that are unique to the weapon in question that can be enabled with either unique modding or gear combos.

Example:

Sibear - you gain incarnon charges for killing enemies with cold procs ,

Dread - you gain incarnon for enemies that die to a bleed effect.

Magistar , Furax - you gain incarnon for ground finishers 

 

 

 

[Firaxion]

A follow up just for clarification: Whilst I'm sure I come across as extremely salty on this topic, I actually do think there will be a solution in future, eventually.

 

Most of the changes/reworks under the new Warframe dev leadership (post Soulframe announcement) have been extremely positive and clearly well thought through (shield dmg reduction, companion rework, shield gating changes etc).

Pablo clearly understands the importance of optimization graphs and required numbers tuning needed to keep the game alive. Reb for sure has the fingers on the pulse of the general community mood and desired priorities better than 98% of other game devs out there.

 

Whispers in the Walls was definitely one of the best orchestrated updates in Warfame for years: bugs were minor, core WF mechanics, great new enemies and style, a little something for old and new players alike, changes that tie up many loose ends and actually released on time (!!!!!!the shock!!!!!!)

 

The business strategy of "always push forward with the new, as fast and best quality as possible" is fairly clear at this point and well, it is definitely working so far.

Its just a real shame certain quite nitty gritty, small-but-quite-important items often get lost in the chaotic push for mountains of new content.

 

I highly doubt that infested liches will get released without decent changes to weaponry: there is no point releasing a new hot lich item in a new shiny release that isn't meta worthy (and is stomped on by old content) after all.

 

It just might take a while.... certainly don't hold your breath for multiple seasons over this xD

[Zahnrad]

Kinda mixed. I like the idea behind charging Incarnons.

But there are certain weapons that are hard to build charge with, shotgun related weapons being more blatant, requiring you to Point Blank enemies at times due to pellet shinanigans.

My other issue is some weapons require too much precision and don't give enough Incarnon ammo that it doesn't quite feel worth it.

Miter Incarnon is a good example, I feel like you are forced you spam quick fire shots to build charge. It would be nice if Full Charged Miter blades gave more Charge on hit, to further reward pacing your shots instead of spam firing.