i feel like dante is too good ?

[Xenevier]

As the title says i feel like dante on release is a little too strong. warframes tend to have their playstyles and use cases differ to a point where one frame isnt better than another because they all fill different roles, but dante seems to be too strong for that standard:

giving team wide overguards used to be specific to styanax's Interpid Stand augment, is now overshadowed by an ability in dante's base kit. styanax needed to use a very high amount of energy to spam his 4 and use a lot of energy to get to those high overguard numbers while dante doesnt need to do that and still gets to give it to everyone without the need of using a mod slot for it.

dante has a pure slash crit exalted weapon which can deal with high armored units easily from slash ignoring armor, this isnt anything new, we have had frames that did this such as kullervo with his 4, or styanax with his 4, both of which also had overguard to compensate for their survival issues(styanax cannot dodge much when in 4 animation, kullervo has 0 shields and cant shield gate without any) but dante gets to have more overguard, team wide version of it, and shields to shield gate incase he forgets to refresh his overguard...

the problem i have and i may be stretching it a bit here with his exalted weapon is that it can by itself carry dante's damage to the end game, meaning you have no need for a strong weapon, this how ever could also be said for styanax so there is that to argue for too.

dante's 4 also gives him equinox's 4 but in a smaller radius although much easier to stack it imo and again the problem isnt him having the same tools as other frames, i find the problem being in that he has a LOT of these tools in one frame. 

i just think if we're going to give him 40k overguard, at base he should have issues surviving without it, as do other frames who utalize overguard, or if we're to have him share it with others maybe there should be a condition instead of the press of a button? styanax does that but has to stay in his 4 and in higher tiers of content you usually get out damaged from the shields you generate with your augment from staying in the air and having limited movement while dante can have full control of his frame while generating those overguards.

now although he is a caster and will primarily rely on casting spells, having 25 cost abilities which can room clear with 2 casts seems low energy costs as well especially as a LARGE number of players use zenurik and that can eliminate his energy problems.

what are your thoughts? is he balanced around not having movement abilities or is he too strong? do you think warframe being a PvE game excuses if a frame is stronger than what is standard and in the bounds of the norm ? 

[Pakaku]

Never played him, but by the sounds of this thread, it seems like he might be overtuned to make up for the idea that most people wouldn't be able to figure out how to press keys in sequence (which seems slightly condescending)

[Waeleto]

Dante is fine, my frost and styanax both can give everyone 60K+ overguard the only difference is that dante doesn't need an augment

Noctua seems to be his subsume slot imo so idk why you think this slow firing clunky weapon is "too strong" just cause it does slash damage

It's insane to me that people would immediately head to the forums to complain about something being too strong in a pve game where mesa/saryn/kullervo/revenant(mind you revenant gives his entire squad LITERAL immortality) exist LMAO

Edited March 28 by Waeleto

[Xenevier]

i get that its a PvE game and stronger options dont make others weaker, but you are ignoring the fact that even in a PvE game power creep is a thing ... and also i get that we have strong frames like you mentioned but saryn needs to build spores, mesa cant preform as well against armor, kullervo has less survivability than dante, revenant only gives 1 charge of his shield without the mesmser shield augment and needs to actively seek out allies and hit them with his 3 while dante just casts 2 and everyone gets the overguard... again theres the chance im over reacting to this whole thing

[Ocerkin]

17 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Dante is fine, my frost and styanax both can give everyone 60K+ overguard the only difference is that dante doesn't need an augment

Noctua seems to be his subsume slot imo so idk why you think this slow firing clunky weapon is "too strong" just cause it does slash damage

It's insane to me that people would immediately head to the forums to complain about something being too strong in a pve game where mesa/saryn/kullervo/revenant(mind you revenant gives his entire squad LITERAL immortality) exist LMAO

is this your first time playing warframe? this literally happens every time a new frame comes out that isnt staggeringly underpowered, and usually even then youll find someone complaining that if you use it in some specific niche way its to strong. the warframe community is like a bucket of crabs, constantly dragging everyone else down.

[Xenevier]

4 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

is this your first time playing warframe? this literally happens every time a new frame comes out that isnt staggeringly underpowered, and usually even then youll find someone complaining that if you use it in some specific niche way its to strong. the warframe community is like a bucket of crabs, constantly dragging everyone else down.

im not trying to bring anyone down, im sharing my opinion, and if the community as a whole decides dante is in a good spot the so be it, i will mention that from what ive seen dante does build quite high strength so that high overguard number isnt from his Niche build or anything, but again im open to arguments, i came here to talk not fight :\

[Waeleto]

7 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

is this your first time playing warframe? this literally happens every time a new frame comes out that isnt staggeringly underpowered, and usually even then youll find someone complaining that if you use it in some specific niche way its to strong. the warframe community is like a bucket of crabs, constantly dragging everyone else down.

And then they ask why warframes get bandaid mods, because when they're good without it you guys complain about it too

[Waeleto]

1 minute ago, Xenevier said:

im not trying to bring anyone down, im sharing my opinion, and if the community as a whole decides dante is in a good spot the so be it, i will mention that from what ive seen dante does build quite high strength so that high overguard number isnt from his Niche build or anything, but again im open to arguments, i came here to talk not fight :\

And to build this high strength he has to sacrifice either duration (transient fortitude) or efficiency (blind rage) or 44% str across his whole kit in favor of 90% on his 4th, this is how modding works

[Ocerkin]

1 minute ago, Xenevier said:

im not trying to bring anyone down, im sharing my opinion, and if the community as a whole decides dante is in a good spot the so be it, i will mention that from what ive seen dante does build quite high strength so that high overguard number isnt from his Niche build or anything, but again im open to arguments, i came here to talk not fight :\

is dante strong? yes, but you have to remember how you get him, from basically end game farming runs of high level missions, so he should be strong for what you need to do to obtain him

[Xenevier]

Just now, Ocerkin said:

is dante strong? yes, but you have to remember how you get him, from basically end game farming runs of high level missions, so he should be strong for what you need to do to obtain him

fair point, end game frame should work in end game content, i can agree with that

[Xenevier]

12 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

And to build this high strength he has to sacrifice either duration (transient fortitude) or efficiency (blind rage) or 44% str across his whole kit in favor of 90% on his 4th, this is how modding works

with blind rage im pretty sure his 2 and 3 dont go over 40 Energy since at base 2 and 3 are 25 energy costs, so blind rage seems to me to fit nicely into his kit, his 4 also has a 30s base duration which seems to be comfortable for a 50 cost ability which will go a bit higher in counting blind rage ofc, and if we're talking about modding we go back to what i said at the start, why does styanax need to sacrifice a mod slot for what dante does by himself but better... you could say this is justified for him being locked behind a LOT of progression to get to him

[Ocerkin]

7 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

with blind rage im pretty sure his 2 and 3 dont go over 40 Energy since at base 2 and 3 are 25 energy costs, so blind rage seems to me to fit nicely into his kit, his 4 also has a 30s base duration which seems to be comfortable for a 50 cost ability which will go a bit higher in counting blind rage ofc, and if we're talking about modding we go back to what i said at the start, why does styanax need to sacrifice a mod slot for what dante does by himself but better... you could say this is justified for him being locked behind a LOT of progression to get to him

styanax got kind of the short end of the stick by DE giving him to everyone for free on release, so he got the nerf hammer

[Waeleto]

10 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

why does styanax need to sacrifice a mod slot for what dante does by himself but better

Same can be said about majority of augments which brings us to a whole different argument

[Xenevier]

1 minute ago, Waeleto said:

Same can be said about majority of augments which brings us to a whole different argument

literally what augment lets a frame take someone else's niche from them ? and i dont mean add a mechanic already existing in the game to the frame i mean take someone else's THING and give it to someone else ? cuz as of now interpid stand seems to do that to dante, sharing team wide overguard was exclusive to styanax afaik

[johnno23]

dante overpowered ? maybe but these days for my way of thinking DE went over the top everywhere.

weapons with incarnon modes and then adding archon shards and top that off with the newer arcanes and even the most ancient basic junk weapons used for mastery ranking have become power houses. In my mind is this good or bad is always a heated debate, Personally my thinking is that if enough people are having fun and enjoying the game then make as few changes as possible. Picking on a weapon for a nerf is overall counter productive when older weapons could compete for a share of the glory of being popular if they were buffed. Variety is one thing we have no shortage of but too many weapons and frames under go nerfs as opposed to improving those items that are being ignored.

Many players love a frame or weapon for its look the sound effects on a gun or simply they love a particular ability. its a bit like say this fashion frame is to popular lets hack it to make it less popular only difference is one is paid content and the other is obtainable for free.

 

[Waeleto]

7 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

literally what augment lets a frame take someone else's niche from them ? and i dont mean add a mechanic already existing in the game to the frame i mean take someone else's THING and give it to someone else ? cuz as of now interpid stand seems to do that to dante, sharing team wide overguard was exclusive to styanax afaik

You're forgetting that styanax took kullervo's thing and btw frost ALREADY does what styanax does

[Xenevier]

Just now, Waeleto said:

You're forgetting that styanax took kullervo's thing and btw frost ALREADY does what styanax does

kullervo doesnt share his overguard, overguard existed since rhino, sharing it is what styanax and as you mention frost did, and oh wait frost also needs an augment to do that ... and oh whats this, frost's one is also tied to a 100 energy cost ability with a long animation ... just like styanax, see a sort of connection here? 2 of them need an augment, one doesnt

[Xenevier]

3 minutes ago, johnno23 said:

dante overpowered ? maybe but these days for my way of thinking DE went over the top everywhere.

weapons with incarnon modes and then adding archon shards and top that off with the newer arcanes and even the most ancient basic junk weapons used for mastery ranking have become power houses. In my mind is this good or bad is always a heated debate, Personally my thinking is that if enough people are having fun and enjoying the game then make as few changes as possible. Picking on a weapon for a nerf is overall counter productive when older weapons could compete for a share of the glory of being popular if they were buffed. Variety is one thing we have no shortage of but too many weapons and frames under go nerfs as opposed to improving those items that are being ignored.

Many players love a frame or weapon for its look the sound effects on a gun or simply they love a particular ability. its a bit like say this fashion frame is to popular lets hack it to make it less popular only difference is one is paid content and the other is obtainable for free.

 

yeah it makes sense, im not denying that if a frame was supposedly "OP" it would hurt no one, as it wont be used against anyone, only by the community so at the end of the day an OP frame is still just more variety, i get what u mean

[Waeleto]

6 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

kullervo doesnt share his overguard, overguard existed since rhino, sharing it is what styanax and as you mention frost did, and oh wait frost also needs an augment to do that ... and oh whats this, frost's one is also tied to a 100 energy cost ability with a long animation ... just like styanax, see a sort of connection here? 2 of them need an augment, one doesnt

Well guess what, mechanics don't stay exclusive to certain warframes

Chroma used to give his allies extra health and trinity used to heal them, wisp came out
Mirage used to give DR with total eclipse then citrine came out

Eventually someone will come out and will have dante's mechanics but better

As for styanax and frost, styanax still has the best armor strip in the game and incredible energy regen thanks to nourish and his 3, also has shieldgate to all his allies from his 3
while frost is a bit outdated he still is THE defense warframe and he has one of the best aoe armor strips in the game, these 2 warframes will be fine

[Xenevier]

4 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Well guess what, mechanics don't stay exclusive to certain warframes

Chroma used to give his allies extra health and trinity used to heal them, wisp came out
Mirage used to give DR with total eclipse then citrine came out

Eventually someone will come out and will have dante's mechanics but better

As for styanax and frost, styanax still has the best armor strip in the game and incredible energy regen thanks to nourish and his 3, also has shieldgate to all his allies from his 3
while frost is a bit outdated he still is THE defense warframe and he has one of the best aoe armor strips in the game, these 2 warframes will be fine

thats chromas base kit, thats trinity's base kit, garuda at base kit also heals allies, that is also wisps base kit, damage reduction is not the same as overguard which lets you also ignore interruptions or statuses, and as you can see chroma and frost and trinity all now have a lower usage% by the community while wisp and wisp prime sit at 8# and 12# respectively which goes to show their usage indeed DID go down by the passage of time and release of frames that did their jobs better, dont get me wrong they are still used, but it clearly did diminish their popularity by time(you can go to the site i mention and sort by years and see how much their usage drops), the stats i have are from the 2023 stats from the official warframe site, like i legit dont think our back and forth is ganna get anywhere, since my point with the styanax comparison is about the usage of the mod slot specifically, and we're both clearly trying to hammer our points in and dont see eye to eye... agree to disagree

[Pakaku]

1 hour ago, Ocerkin said:

is dante strong? yes, but you have to remember how you get him, from basically end game farming runs of high level missions, so he should be strong for what you need to do to obtain him

I wouldn't exactly call that particular mission end-game... besides the fact that it's the latest in the chain of quests. It's run-of-the-mill level 55-60 stuff.

[Xenevier]

2 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

I wouldn't exactly call that particular mission end-game... besides the fact that it's the latest in the chain of quests. It's run-of-the-mill level 55-60 stuff.

i think by end game they mean how long it takes to get to this point, cuz remember the latest chain of quests requires hundreds of hours of playtime to get to, the mission itself isnt hard at all but the road to it takes a lot of time

[magusat999]

54 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

literally what augment lets a frame take someone else's niche from them ? and i dont mean add a mechanic already existing in the game to the frame i mean take someone else's THING and give it to someone else ? cuz as of now interpid stand seems to do that to dante, sharing team wide overguard was exclusive to styanax afaik

This has been a thing forever with Warframe. Loki's "niche" for example, was invisibility - but instead of tweaking him, we got Ivara. (Ivara is cool, but if they just gave Loki the same invisibility, without the movement penalty... would we really be using her? We would subsume silence on Loki and that would be that for Ivara) Ignoring damage - Rhino - but here came Nez, and then Revenent. CC was Nyx's niche - now we have a whole cavalcade of passive CC frames. There really isn't all that much originality in Warframes, just "iterations" that are borrowed from a small set - and could have just been added to the other's kit. Dante may be strong, but thats just what DE does. Let you mess around with a strong Warframe or Weapon - and then nerf it. Don't fret - he will be mediocre when the time comes. Just like they did Styanax. Imagine your parents buy you a birthday gift - your favorite toy. They see how much you enjoy it, andsee how much you REALLY enjoy it... and then they get jealous because the fun your having you should be having with THEM, so they break the toy. Yeah - thats how it works around here - so enjoy the power while it lasts, cuz when the batteries run down, they will never get replaced...

[Kaiga]

So for an actual review of the frame instead of more arguing.
Dante reminds me of the secret lovechild of citrine and harrow, which means a lot of support for friends, and a lot of strength mods.

He's pretty strong. You do get your overguard wiped at high enough levels, but you also get iframes and this truly enormous bag of kill and support tricks you can pull out (he actually has like 8 abilities) and understandably gets energy hungry.

You can mod the exalted book to affect pagewarden, but the pageflight bugs out occasionally where the birds either get stuck on geometry flying in circles, or get dispelled somehow with the icon still saying you have time on the ability. The expedite suffering gimmick works how you'd expect it to, and overall, it's a ton of fun playing shadow wizard money gang: in space.

When i first got him i had no idea what i was doing, and it was an absolute blast just mashing buttons and seeing what happens. Really fun to play frame.

[Xenevier]

3 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

So for an actual review of the frame instead of more arguing.
Dante reminds me of the secret lovechild of citrine and harrow, which means a lot of support for friends, and a lot of strength mods.

He's pretty strong. You do get your overguard wiped at high enough levels, but you also get iframes and this truly enormous bag of kill and support tricks you can pull out (he actually has like 8 abilities) and understandably gets energy hungry.

You can mod the exalted book to affect pagewarden, but the pageflight bugs out occasionally where the birds either get stuck on geometry flying in circles, or get dispelled somehow with the icon still saying you have time on the ability. The expedite suffering gimmick works how you'd expect it to, and overall, it's a ton of fun playing shadow wizard money gang: in space.

When i first got him i had no idea what i was doing, and it was an absolute blast just mashing buttons and seeing what happens. Really fun to play frame.

yeah there's no denying that shadow wizard money gang is fun and thts what games are about at the end of the day, maybe i judged him too harshly too early