Instantly Knowing Where The Demolisher is Kinda Kills Disruption

[Drachnyn]

For the record, I'm also against nerfing the audio indicator. I think disruption is such a great game mode because the game tells you where the demo is from so far away (previously only with the audio indicator, now with both audio and visual). Fundamentally the game did not change at all, the change was purely an accessibility change. You were always meant to know where the demo is coming from, this gets further augmented by the fact that demo approach direction is very predictable aswell. By the third round you can find a vast majority of demos through prediction alone. All that combined gives this game mode such an excellent flow, both solo and with friends. I'm not looking to play hide and seek, I'm here to intercept a missile with my treasure chest's name on it. This fast pace is why I like this game.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 hour ago, S7ORM said:

As someone who plays with the game on mute most of the time, I am very glad that they added a visual cue (or more accurately, improved the visual cue -- there used to be a tiny, super missable one before), but I do agree that it is now too obvious from too far away. It's suppose to become more frequently visible as you get closer, but right now it's either just invisible or totally visible, from quite far away.

Exactly, thank you for saying some truth - it is too obvious.

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The way it is implemented isnt really an issue. The sound based indicator was bad due to too much noise, making a more vague visual indicator would result in the same, since we have so much visual noise in the game aswell. And just like with hearing, people have varying degrees of visual capabilities aswell.

And as already stated, the main change is that you have the visual on screen now when looking in that direction within a certain range, while previously you had that indicator on the minimap no matter which direction you looked, without it fading in and out, and the range was far more forgiving. So you are making an issue out of something since you didnt know it was there in another shape already.

How was the sound bad? You mean it was "bad" because it didn't tell you exactly where it was?

Yes, there was an indicator, and nobody every used it. The general playerbase all used the sound. That's how we've been playing it for years, and for a lot of newer users, that's actually their entire experience with the mode. So this change altered the way all the 'regular' players experience this mode. I can't believe people are out here trying to deny this reality. You're pretending the entire playerbase was religiously using that hud element? What a joke. They were using the sound. We all were. Even many of the people who knew about the existence of the icon didn't use it because it just wasn't easy to see or orient and it was just faster, easier and more efficient to follow the sound, and I'd be willing to bet that 85-99% of the playerbase didn't even know it existed, and if that's even remotely accurate, then it is in fact you who is making an issue out of something that nobody even knew about. I'm sure you'll call me a liar, and I'll say prove it, and you'll get some forum lowlifes to come on here again and say they used it by looking at the floor and spinning around or some crap, but we all know the reality on the ground, anyone who ever played a single pub disruption knows the reality: the playerbase was hunting using sound (and memory). That was how the mode was played.

That is in fact the ENTIRE REASON they went and made this change, to ADD it, because for all intents and purposes it DIDN'T EXIST. True or false? You'll say false of course, because you have to, because of ego and forum bully culture. And then I'll say if that's false then why did they add it at all when there was already a 'perfectly good visual indicator already in place'? And then you'll insult me instead of answering, or divert into some other thing. I'm beating you to all the punches. Why? Because we've already been around this 2 or 3 times in this thread. If you're posting this with 'good faith' then sorry, but I'm tired of the gaslighting and dishonesty.

[SneakyErvin]

35 minutes ago, CrownOfShadows said:

How was the sound bad? You mean it was "bad" because it didn't tell you exactly where it was?

Yes, there was an indicator, and nobody every used it. The general playerbase all used the sound. That's how we've been playing it for years, and for a lot of newer users, that's actually their entire experience with the mode. So this change altered the way all the 'regular' players experience this mode. I can't believe people are out here trying to deny this reality. You're pretending the entire playerbase was religiously using that hud element? What a joke. They were using the sound. We all were. Even many of the people who knew about the existence of the icon didn't use it because it just wasn't easy to see or orient and it was just faster, easier and more efficient to follow the sound, and I'd be willing to bet that 85-99% of the playerbase didn't even know it existed, and if that's even remotely accurate, then it is in fact you who is making an issue out of something that nobody even knew about. I'm sure you'll call me a liar, and I'll say prove it, and you'll get some forum lowlifes to come on here again and say they used it by looking at the floor and spinning around or some crap, but we all know the reality on the ground, anyone who ever played a single pub disruption knows the reality: the playerbase was hunting using sound (and memory). That was how the mode was played.

That is in fact the ENTIRE REASON they went and made this change, to ADD it, because for all intents and purposes it DIDN'T EXIST. True or false? You'll say false of course, because you have to, because of ego and forum bully culture. And then I'll say if that's false then why did they add it at all when there was already a 'perfectly good visual indicator already in place'? And then you'll insult me instead of answering, or divert into some other thing. I'm beating you to all the punches. Why? Because we've already been around this 2 or 3 times in this thread. If you're posting this with 'good faith' then sorry, but I'm tired of the gaslighting and dishonesty.

No, bad as in it drowning in all other noise, just like a more vague indicator did/would. This is regarding people with issues, which are the people both these things should also consider. And it isnt like they can make it to just be used by them and the rest get a trickier sound and visual queue.

It's also nice you jump to assumptions. It's also nice you say "we've been playing it for years" when you ignore or simply dont know how it actually was at release before all the numerous bugs got piled onto the mode regarding visual tracking. I'm also not pretending anything nor claiming it. All I'm saying is it was already there and I used it 100% of the time since I always listen to music when playing. I've used the visual tracking ever since the end of the release event for Disruption, back when it was only a Gas City activity. Also, how the #*!% am I "making an issue"? I'm simply stating what was there, and I have no issue nor see any in it. In the end, the mechanic was already there and even more obvious for tracking than the current OSD UI element. You hit M, turned around and looked for a slightly differently shaped arrow, then you headed in that direction and kept eyes on the minimap.

The system you are currently complaining about was already in the game at the release of Disruptions, the only difference is it flashed more, so got downed out by all other visual noise as I mentioned. It also broke at some point after release, just as the minimap tracking has worked differently since the mode was released, also likely due to various bugs. So what DE has finally done is fix all the bugs tied to the tracking.

You should also probably not throw around the term gaslighting when you yourself start regurgitating made up numbers that no one can even back up or prove. Never once did I mention any form of numbers or claimed even a majority using either or. I simply stated how the system has worked since release in various states and implied it needs to be designed for those in the worst spot for these types of queues. But I dont think you'll see that considering how absurd one of your very early statements were.

On 2024-03-30 at 2:51 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

Eh, I really don't see this. You could accommodate the hearing impaired or people who just want music (me) without changing the way it works in the slightest. Yes, I suppose it fixes it, but it is not in any way needed to fix it.

The current setup solves it for pretty much everyone that needs it to enjoy the mode, since it covers people with hearing difficulties, people with visual difficulties, people suffering from both and those that simply just want to play the game without headphones or sound in general. And it made the mode work more like it did on release again.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb stormy505:

The irony.

Anways, a toggle for this would be fine. I don't think they should spend that much dev time on it though since it's such a niche issue. As someone who plays often with music playing I like having visual queues available.

So the sounds were something special. That's why I like looking for stuff in sp circuit or daylies in labs.
but now the mission is mehhhh. super boring and way too easy.

[CrownOfShadows]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, bad as in it drowning in all other noise, just like a more vague indicator did/would. This is regarding people with issues, which are the people both these things should also consider. And it isnt like they can make it to just be used by them and the rest get a trickier sound and visual queue.

It's also nice you jump to assumptions. It's also nice you say "we've been playing it for years" when you ignore or simply dont know how it actually was at release before all the numerous bugs got piled onto the mode regarding visual tracking. I'm also not pretending anything nor claiming it. All I'm saying is it was already there and I used it 100% of the time since I always listen to music when playing. I've used the visual tracking ever since the end of the release event for Disruption, back when it was only a Gas City activity. Also, how the #*!% am I "making an issue"? I'm simply stating what was there, and I have no issue nor see any in it. In the end, the mechanic was already there and even more obvious for tracking than the current OSD UI element. You hit M, turned around and looked for a slightly differently shaped arrow, then you headed in that direction and kept eyes on the minimap.

The system you are currently complaining about was already in the game at the release of Disruptions, the only difference is it flashed more, so got downed out by all other visual noise as I mentioned. It also broke at some point after release, just as the minimap tracking has worked differently since the mode was released, also likely due to various bugs. So what DE has finally done is fix all the bugs tied to the tracking.

You should also probably not throw around the term gaslighting when you yourself start regurgitating made up numbers that no one can even back up or prove. Never once did I mention any form of numbers or claimed even a majority using either or. I simply stated how the system has worked since release in various states and implied it needs to be designed for those in the worst spot for these types of queues. But I dont think you'll see that considering how absurd one of your very early statements were.

The current setup solves it for pretty much everyone that needs it to enjoy the mode, since it covers people with hearing difficulties, people with visual difficulties, people suffering from both and those that simply just want to play the game without headphones or sound in general. And it made the mode work more like it did on release again.

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that the majority of warframe players, for the majority of the time, did not use this?

Like I don't really care how it was on release or even what the original intent was, that's interesting triva, but what I care about is how it's existed for the entire time I've been playing it. Maybe it didn't start out as a hunt but rather as a fetch, but it somehow evolved into a hunt, and for the vast majority of players I've played with and the ones I know, this is how it was experienced. So that's our reality. So we've known it as a hunt - and it's been that way for a long time, and suddenly it's now a fetch; a fundamental shift in design, even if unintended.

[stormy505]

2 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

So the sounds were something special. That's why I like looking for stuff in sp circuit or daylies in labs.
but now the mission is mehhhh. super boring and way too easy

Yeah it's definitely gotten easier and less active. I could see just extending the range of where you would see the old icon, or having the red flashes demos do go much farther. Instead of having the icon available at the start.

I still prefer this over the old one cause I disliked turning off the music/videos o watched while farming. But there's better ways to implement visual help. (Again, having it be a toggle option works.)

[Drachnyn]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb stormy505:

Yeah it's definitely gotten easier and less active. I could see just extending the range of where you would see the old icon, or having the red flashes demos do go much farther. Instead of having the icon available at the start.

I still prefer this over the old one cause I disliked turning off the music/videos o watched while farming. But there's better ways to implement visual help. (Again, having it be a toggle option works.)

The range of the visual marker is this far because the audio signal already reached this far. It's only instant if the demo spawns so close to the conduit that you'd be hearing it right away anyway. On the new tile that's always the case but on lua the demo can still spawn out of audio and visual range.

[stormy505]

31 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

The range of the visual marker is this far because the audio signal already reached this far. It's only instant if the demo spawns so close to the conduit that you'd be hearing it right away anyway. On the new tile that's always the case but on lua the demo can still spawn out of audio and visual range.

TBF there's normally levels to the audio queue, at max distance you'll barely hear it without tweaking audio settings where everything else is quiet. While the visual queue doesn't have any graduality, it's either fully visible or not at all.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that the majority of warframe players, for the majority of the time, did not use this?

Like I don't really care how it was on release or even what the original intent was, that's interesting triva, but what I care about is how it's existed for the entire time I've been playing it. Maybe it didn't start out as a hunt but rather as a fetch, but it somehow evolved into a hunt, and for the vast majority of players I've played with and the ones I know, this is how it was experienced. So that's our reality. So we've known it as a hunt - and it's been that way for a long time, and suddenly it's now a fetch; a fundamental shift in design, even if unintended.

I dont agree or disagree on it, since there are no numbers to tell which is true or not. Plenty of people in this thread seem to prefer music, including you and me, making it hard for them, you and me to have relied on the sound queue of the mode. Does that mean you stood still and waited or took a blind chance?

Others do care, since they are used to all of what has been. And it has always been a hunt, since the sound has been a clear indicator already, and when the marker spawns early it is in places where you could already pinpoint the sound. There is also not really a shift, much less a fundamental one, it simply comes down to how you personally have used the already available mechanics or not. All it did was add accessibility and move/fix the tracker to where your eyes are mostly at on the screen so it goes inline with the sound queue.

Too me it seems like you exaggerate the impact of the sound instead of just seeing it for what it was/is, a mechanic that made it mandatory to use sound for the best experience. Now it doesnt matter if you prefer to use sound or not, now it is equally efficient to rely on either, without having to jump through hoops accessing the minimap/overlay etc.

[CrownOfShadows]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont agree or disagree on it, since there are no numbers to tell which is true or not. Plenty of people in this thread seem to prefer music, including you and me, making it hard for them, you and me to have relied on the sound queue of the mode. Does that mean you stood still and waited or took a blind chance?

Others do care, since they are used to all of what has been. And it has always been a hunt, since the sound has been a clear indicator already, and when the marker spawns early it is in places where you could already pinpoint the sound. There is also not really a shift, much less a fundamental one, it simply comes down to how you personally have used the already available mechanics or not. All it did was add accessibility and move/fix the tracker to where your eyes are mostly at on the screen so it goes inline with the sound queue.

Too me it seems like you exaggerate the impact of the sound instead of just seeing it for what it was/is, a mechanic that made it mandatory to use sound for the best experience. Now it doesnt matter if you prefer to use sound or not, now it is equally efficient to rely on either, without having to jump through hoops accessing the minimap/overlay etc.

The sound is not a precise indicator. It helps. It provides essential feedback. It does NOT tell you exactly where the demolisher is.

The visual cue on the other hand does tell you EXACTLY where it is. The visual cue IS superior. It shouldn't be, that's rather the whole point of this thread, but it is.

I don't like that you're dodging the question by trying to say you have no idea how the playerbase played this mode (by using sound or the old icon), I'm pretty sure you know just as well as I do how sound-reliant the general community was. It's a fair point, we don't have stats, and we can't really know how the people around us are experiencing the game, but all the same... surely you've seen people take a wrong turn in disruption before? Surely you saw people make a quick circle around the perimeter to orient? Surely you saw people occasionally fail conduits because they couldn't find the demolisher? Surely you saw other people searching.

[Drachnyn]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

The sound is not a precise indicator. It helps. It provides essential feedback. It does NOT tell you exactly where the demolisher is.

Incorrect. Maps are not complicated. If you can hear it, you know where to go.

[CrownOfShadows]

3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Incorrect. Maps are not complicated. If you can hear it, you know where to go.

If you mean that when you only have one hallway or tunnel or corridor in that direction, then sure. The sound gave you the general direction, and because there's only one option that way, it's "solved" - not because of sound, but because of level geometry.  But when there are multiple ways to go, and when there are multiple levels, or when the sound is too faint, or when you are facing the source, then the sound becomes directionally ambiguous - sound by itself is not a precise indicator, not even in real life. In combination with geometry/memory, it can narrow the options to one though, yes.

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

If you mean that when you only have one hallway or tunnel or corridor in that direction, then sure. The sound gave you the general direction, and because there's only one option that way, it's "solved" - not because of sound, but because of level geometry.  But when there are multiple ways to go, and when there are multiple levels, or when the sound is too faint, or when you are facing the source, then the sound becomes directionally ambiguous - sound by itself is not a precise indicator, not even in real life. In combination with geometry/memory, it can narrow the options to one though, yes.

Which is always the case in this game because we dont have complicated maps. There are never actually multiple ways to go in disruption.

[CrownOfShadows]

1 minute ago, Drachnyn said:

Which is always the case in this game because we dont have complicated maps. There are never actually multiple ways to go in disruption.

Incorrect. Many maps have branching paths, most have multiple levels, and the sound always starts faint. I can't think of single one that doesn't actually. Olympus does, Laomedia does, Apollo DEFINITELY does, Jupiter does, some tilesets more than others. Do you have an example in mind?

[_Anise_]

 

I am fed up of needing to wear my headset and turn my music volume to off in order to find where demolishers are coming from, also some people are hearing impaired and need some kind of visual cue!

[CrownOfShadows]

8 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I am fed up of needing to wear my headset and turn my music volume to off in order to find where demolishers are coming from, also some people are hearing impaired and need some kind of visual cue!

Yup, we all agree, it was a much needed change, nobody here is actually against it in principle.

Tell us, were you exclusively using sound to find the demos before this change?

[Drachnyn]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Incorrect. Many maps have branching paths, most have multiple levels, and the sound always starts faint. I can't think of single one that doesn't actually. Olympus does, Laomedia does, Apollo DEFINITELY does, Jupiter does, some tilesets more than others. Do you have an example in mind?

Lets see:

1.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

2.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

3.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

4.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

5.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

6.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information. (if you are outside the cicular room the waypoint also gets caught by the entrance so it doesnt even help that much)

7.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

8.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

9.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information.

10.

Spoiler

Sound direction provides perfect information. (shout out to the conduit failsafe key in the room)

I have 4 more rooms where you have an arguement at first glance. So lets look at them more indepth.

Spoiler

This is one where it would not be as clear cut as the examples above. Lets take the white conduit as example. If we put the key in and hear the sound from either south, west or north then the direction is immediately clear and we have enough information to locate the demo. If the sound is from east we move over and on the next sound tick that will happen roughly exactly when we reach the middle of the other room part we now have perfect information.

Spoiler

Very similar situation here. If we start from blue and here from the south west then we move there and the next sound tick will give us every information we need to locate the demo. The second sound tick will also be louder because we've moved closer.

Spoiler

Same thing here. We have a direction and once we reach the way split at the bottom the next sound tick will determine our direction.

Spoiler

I suspect this is the room you are talking about. Fair enough. Except one of these is almost always a dead end and even if it isnt, if you move towards a door and the sound does not get louder then we instantly know it was the other door. In that time the demo has made no noteworthy ground gain. There is another room on mars with conduits, the L shaped room that can also show up in ESO. It's the same deal there. Thanks to the limitations of eucledian space only one of the exits that would overlap sound in is active.

This is also only ever relevant for the first and maybe second round. By the third round you should be able to predict the demo's path by conduit location alone. These maps are not complicated.

In conclusion there are many rooms where the direction the sound is coming from is enough to know everything you need to know. The only change that has happened is that you dont need good ears, headphones and turned off music anymore.

[OfPowerOfWant]

Played disruption twice before the change and didnt touch it for years.

Only thing i like less than defense is bullet sponging and I play solo with most sounds off so it was super tedious and annoying

After the change it's one of my favorites missions and i can acquire a lot of things i had written off as unattainable

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, OfPowerOfWant said:

Played disruption twice before the change and didnt touch it for years.

Only thing i like less than defense is bullet sponging and I play solo with most sounds off so it was super tedious and annoying

After the change it's one of my favorites missions and i can acquire a lot of things i had written off as unattainable

The visual feedback is good... ^1,000,008

[CrownOfShadows]

48 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Lets see:

1.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

2.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

3.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

4.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

5.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

6.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information. (if you are outside the cicular room the waypoint also gets caught by the entrance so it doesnt even help that much)

7.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

8.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

9.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information.

10.

  Reveal hidden contents

Sound direction provides perfect information. (shout out to the conduit failsafe key in the room)

I have 4 more rooms where you have an arguement at first glance. So lets look at them more indepth.

  Reveal hidden contents

This is one where it would not be as clear cut as the examples above. Lets take the white conduit as example. If we put the key in and hear the sound from either south, west or north then the direction is immediately clear and we have enough information to locate the demo. If the sound is from east we move over and on the next sound tick that will happen roughly exactly when we reach the middle of the other room part we now have perfect information.

  Reveal hidden contents

Very similar situation here. If we start from blue and here from the south west then we move there and the next sound tick will give us every information we need to locate the demo. The second sound tick will also be louder because we've moved closer.

  Reveal hidden contents

Same thing here. We have a direction and once we reach the way split at the bottom the next sound tick will determine our direction.

  Reveal hidden contents

I suspect this is the room you are talking about. Fair enough. Except one of these is almost always a dead end and even if it isnt, if you move towards a door and the sound does not get louder then we instantly know it was the other door. In that time the demo has made no noteworthy ground gain. There is another room on mars with conduits, the L shaped room that can also show up in ESO. It's the same deal there. Thanks to the limitations of eucledian space only one of the exits that would overlap sound in is active.

This is also only ever relevant for the first and maybe second round. By the third round you should be able to predict the demo's path by conduit location alone. These maps are not complicated.

In conclusion there are many rooms where the direction the sound is coming from is enough to know everything you need to know. The only change that has happened is that you dont need good ears, headphones and turned off music anymore.

I'm at work and won't be able to reply to this in detail, maybe sometime this weekend I'll bring examples of things you aren't addressing here regarding branching paths and levels.

But, respectfully, you are conflating sound information with map information/knowledge and memory. They aren't the same thing. I know demolisher paths so well on some maps that I can already head down the right path before the key is even plugged into the conduit. That's not sound information.

So while this statement is true:

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

In conclusion there are many rooms where the direction the sound is coming from is enough to know everything you need to know.

All of these are false:

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

Sound direction provides perfect information.

Sound direction provides perfect information

Sound direction provides perfect information

Sound direction provides perfect information.

Sound direction provides perfect information.

Sound is providing the necessary clue, and your map knowledge and memory is enough to complete it and make it "perfect information". Just by itself, the sound is imperfect information. Imagine, for a moment, playing disruption without your map. Or even better, imagine playing a brand new disruption without a map. Imagine that scenario before and after this change.

I bring this up because I don't think people used their maps in disruption like this. I can't really speak for others but I've never once seen someone hit an intersection and pause to whip out their map, or plug in a key and then check their map before running off. It's just more convenient to take one bound in a direction and eliminate it as a possibility than to be constantly opening your map. If that's how you handled it, that's interesting, but I don't really think that was the regular way of tracking it down.

Another complication when it comes to maps is the rotation and orienting yourself in them. They spin unless you turn that off, and even though there's an indicator to show where you are I think it's fair to say that most people struggle to align the map with their perspective. This isn't true with the radar, because it's locked to you and projects from you forward, but it is true with the large map, which seems to be what you are using (?). This is even more true when looking at a map and listening, as you must then attempt to mentally map the sound information you are getting onto what you are seeing. (BTW did you just run around with the map up the whole time, partially blocking your screen? Or did you stop to pull it up?)

[Drachnyn]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

All of these are false:

None of these are false. If you have the sound direction there is only 1 possible approach left. If I hear the sound coming from any one of those doors there is literally no other option where the demo can come from. I dont need the map for that, I just need to follow the sound.

vor 14 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

I bring this up because I don't think people used their maps in disruption like this. I can't really speak for others but I've never once seen someone hit an intersection and pause to whip out their map, or plug in a key and then check their map before running off. It's just more convenient to take one bound in a direction and eliminate it as a possibility than to be constantly opening your map. If that's how you handled it, that's interesting, but I don't really think that was the regular way of tracking it down.

The minimap is very useful since the demos obviously show up with enemy radar. Do you want to say that no one used radar mods aswell now? Or that no one used the map overlay? Or the minimap?

vor 16 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Another complication when it comes to maps is the rotation and orienting yourself in them. They spin unless you turn that off, and even though there's an indicator to show where you are I think it's fair to say that most people struggle to align the map with their perspective. This isn't true with the radar, because it's locked to you and projects from you forward, but it is true with the large map, which seems to be what you are using (?). This is even more true when looking at a map and listening, as you must then attempt to mentally map the sound information you are getting onto what you are seeing. (BTW did you just run around with the map up the whole time, partially blocking your screen? Or did you stop to pull it up?)

I heard the demo sound coming from a direction I went towards that direction. I dont know why you think that involves pulling up the map. I used the map for this thread because it's useful showing where entrances are.

vor 20 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

Sound is providing the necessary clue, and your map knowledge and memory is enough to complete it and make it "perfect information". Just by itself, the sound is imperfect information. Imagine, for a moment, playing disruption without your map. Or even better, imagine playing a brand new disruption without a map. Imagine that scenario before and after this change.

There is no trickery with room exits though. Room exits are not hidden and they almost never overlap (and I adressed the cases where they do overlap). The visual indicator is as good as the sound information already was. It was so good infact that even with my hearing impairment I was able to use it and it played literally exactly the same as disruption plays now. The only difference is that I dont have to disorient myself anymore by spinning the camera around to catch the demo beep on my good ear. I have always played disruption as it is now, it was just personally more straining specifically because of my hearing impairment. Even the smallest hint of visual direction together with the demo beep will lead us to exactly this situation. Because direction is everything when the maps are constructed like they are in this game. This is why I say nothing has changed.

[CrownOfShadows]

3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

None of these are false. If you have the sound direction there is only 1 possible approach left.

You are willfully ignoring my point. You are pretending sound is all you need to know the exact path, but it's not. You need knowledge of the map too. Those are different things. Try again to imagine playing a disruption with zero map knowledge. You would head off in the direction of the sound. Maybe the architecture is simple and you just walk right to it. Maybe it's convoluted, has multiple branching paths, and has multiple levels. Which path do you take? Which level is the right one? Sound doesn't tell you that, only experience tells you that.

The only reason you say "I hear the sound coming from any one of those doors there is literally no other option where the demo can come from" is because you know where that door leads. And what if past that door there's an intersection. Do you go left or right then? From the door, a new player would not know. From the intersection itself, they might be able to figure out if it's left or right (depending on the architecture), but more commonly they would have to try one and test it. You know because you've memorized the demolisher paths, not because the sound is telling you.

9 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I heard the demo sound coming from a direction I went towards that direction. I dont know why you think that involves pulling up the map. I used the map for this thread because it's useful showing where entrances are.

So you did not use your map after all?

[Drachnyn]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

So you did not use your map after all?

I used the map to show room entrances for this thread because it's easier than trying to describe the rooms with words. To show some of the many rooms where the direction alone is enough to give you all information you need.

vor 4 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

The only reason you say "I hear the sound coming from any one of those doors there is literally no other option where the demo can come from" is because you know where that door leads. And what if past that door there's an intersection. Do you go left or right then? From the door, a new player would not know. From the intersection itself, they might be able to figure out if it's left or right (depending on the architecture), but more commonly they would have to try one and test it. You know because you've memorized the demolisher paths, not because the sound is telling you.

There's another sound happening as I approach. You know this. By the time I've reached the intersection primed animal instinct is very likely already showing the demo anyway. Again, these maps arent complicated. There is not an intricate labyrinth of branching paths. There is one path and a couple of dead ends and the demo doesnt even spawn that far away anyway. So yes, it was infact the sound telling me where to go. Remembering where each intersection lead was entirely unnecessary because disruption maps are designed in a very straight forward manner.

[CrownOfShadows]

38 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

I used the map to show room entrances for this thread because it's easier than trying to describe the rooms with words. To show some of the many rooms where the direction alone is enough to give you all information you need.

There's another sound happening as I approach. You know this. By the time I've reached the intersection primed animal instinct is very likely already showing the demo anyway. Again, these maps arent complicated. There is not an intricate labyrinth of branching paths. There is one path and a couple of dead ends and the demo doesnt even spawn that far away anyway. So yes, it was infact the sound telling me where to go. Remembering where each intersection lead was entirely unnecessary because disruption maps are designed in a very straight forward manner.

I'm not sure what secondary sound you are referring to, demolishers do not emit two different sounds.

The maps can be way more complicated than you're implying. Keep in mind you are very experienced in them. Drop a new player into Laomediea or Apollo or Kuva Fortress and they will be lost, they have to fight to just get to where the conduit is. Olympus and Kappa are simpler than those for sure, but you can't just throw out there 'all disruption maps are stupid simple to navigate' because that's just not true unless you have a ton of experience. There are multiple paths everywhere, but I guess that will have to wait until I can come armed with pictures probably, I don't know why that's even in contention but whatever, I'll show it.

[Drachnyn]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb CrownOfShadows:

I'm not sure what secondary sound you are referring to, demolishers do not emit two different sounds.

The sound doesnt just play once is what I mean. As you approach it repeats, further guiding you to the demo.