LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[BloodForCavalero]

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

 

5 hours ago, Jivy said:

Revert Dante changes

 

5 hours ago, Ocerkin said:

full revert, cut the OG given to teammates, thats the only thing that people were asking for

That's it. 

That's all Dante needed.

Yet, you gutted him.

No one read jack-sh*t!

[Alt3rcode]

13 minutes ago, Cegrin said:

It's not "bootlicking".  My point is that the appeal to popularity argument of "most players don't like the change" (as per the post I originally responded to) doesn't hold up because so many of the arguments that is referring to are disingenuous (such as the "should have buffed everything else to Dante's level"), based on extreme outliers (such as the "wasn't so overpowered after an hour or so in endless SP"), or predicated on false - and frankly insulting - assumptions, such as the idea that DE had to have been tricked into the nerf by taking some rando at their word.  As I said in my original post (which, to be fair, had to be edited in, as an errant enter submitted the post prematurely): Appeal to popularity is a poor argument, and "If you want them to revert a change, you need hard math and practical examples within the gameplay bellcurve to demonstrate your point."

I'm not saying the change is perfect or even good.  I'm saying that that if you want to convince DE that the change needs to be undone, you need to both demonstrate why it needs to be changed, and that the situation you describe is typical rather than an outlier.  I have no bones with the "LoS was a poor choice" or "the overguard problem could have been better addressed with <proposal>" positions, provided they can elaborate on how and why.  If you can elucidate your position, I wish you all the best.  I just hate the "people don't like the nerf, so you should undo it" argument.  Nerfs are done because they're perceived to be necessary, and they are expected to be unpopular.  You aren't going to convince a game dev that the the change was a mistake by saying that the nerf is unpopular.  You convince them by showing - in a reproducable manner - that the change doesn't work as intended. 

I guess something as the ENTIRE COMMUNITY saying the changes killed the frame and made it not fun anymore is enough reason to question. Stop trying to be smart - you're no looking like doing that. The "balance" change only brought unbalance and bugs to a Frame that otherwise was bugfree and fun - and most of all - balanced.

[Zeow31]

il y a 22 minutes, Cegrin a dit :

Correction: the problem that you acknowledge and which wasn't the reason for the change wasn't fixed.  The change was made, by all indications, because it was adding more party survivability than intended.  What you're talking about here is a different matter entirely.

LoS being broken is a valid complaint.  I don't mean to imply otherwise.  But the mechanic being broken does not change the intended niche.  It's a reason that the mechanic needs to be fixed, and - at minimum - a stopgap needs to be put in place so Dante approaches the functionality of that niche, such as the "cone" solution/compromise I saw suggested earlier in the thread. 

*shrug* Because you don't want to play as Styanax?  Because Styanax's 4 requires different circumstances (namely the Intrepid Stand augment and a bunch of grouped up enemies that your allies may or may not tear through before you get your overshields?) Because you also want to amplify party damage with Wordwarden or increase enemy status vulnerability through Pageflight? The answer to the question isn't a simple either/or based off of a singular ability, it's an answer that's neccesarily based more on the whole of their kits. 

 

"Correction: the problem that you acknowledge and which wasn't the reason for the change wasn't fixed.  The change was made, by all indications, because it was adding more party survivability than intended"

Are you really to really argue that the one problem that actually exists isn't the reason for the nerf but that the nerf exists because it makes it too easy to survive in this game ? Brb, I'm gonna go kneecap Styanax, Hildryn, Wisp and Revenant ASAP.

"But the mechanic being broken does not change the intended niche."

It does when it has been broken for years. This isn't devs stumbling unto a bug in an old engine, it's devs willingly tying a working ability to a dead weight as a way to nerf it. 
 

"Because Styanax's 4 requires different circumstances (namely the Intrepid Stand augment and a bunch of grouped up enemies that your allies may or may not tear through before you get your overshields?)"

'Twas a brave attempt to pretend Styanax's 4 has any challenge to it, I'd respect it if I didn't think you were trolling. A bunch of grouped enemies ? In a game where 90% of tiles are tiny rooms and the game sends dozens at a time  ... Either I'll get my overguard or my allies are tearing it up so hard I can't get it which simply means it's not needed.

"Because you also want to amplify party damage with Wordwarden or increase enemy status vulnerability through Pageflight?"

Roar for raw damage and anyone relying on status will have more than enough status chance to not need to carry a Dante along.

"... it's an answer that's neccesarily based more on the whole of their kits. "

Sooo ... An exalted weapon that is only useful if you don't have a decent gun with an arcane on it, an overguard generator that takes 2 minutes and all your energy to cap, an attack that relies on a broken system and buffs that can be replaced with a superior Helminth, yeesh that is indeed quite the debate right here, I'm sweating.

Edited April 5 by Zeow31

[Bennett-Prime]

5 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

Just don't use any form of LOS. Make his forth ability to where it will affect only the enemies hit by his third ability. That way, you don't have to worry about hitting enemies in other rooms, and his forth isn't conformed to just what we can see. That and make a dragon key for those that don't want to receive overguard, that way everyone's satisfied.

[MortyPrime78]

1 minute ago, Bennett-Prime said:

Just don't use any form of LOS. Make his forth ability to where it will affect only the enemies hit by his third ability. That way, you don't have to worry about hitting enemies in other rooms, and his forth isn't conformed to just what we can see. That and make a dragon key for those that don't want to receive overguard, that way everyone's satisfied.

I kind of like the dragon key idea.  People used the decaying key for shield gating builds prior to the changes to shields with Dagath, so I could see that working here in the same way.

[Xenevier]

no one asked for LoS DE, people only talked about triumph and overguard, no one even mentioned LoS ... this fixes nothing

[AelorCat]

I'll just add my voice to the 100% revert crowd.  If people don't like the free overguard offer the option to turn it off in the options menu.

[captn_Pat]

Why didnt you just change the stuff that interacts with health damage (let rage/hunter adrenalin, chroma whatever disable overguard, wow thinking hard), instead you gutted a quite beloved frame but across the board. That doesnt sound like careful deliberation, minor tweaks, thats flat out murder. But hey we still have good old non disruptive, non overpowering saryn, she has never been a problem, lets mob the new guy.

bait and switch much? 5 forma and 40 plat in the gutter, might as well play caliban.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

2 hours ago, AHendy said:

Wow, hadn’t even thought of that, what a stellar feedback.

Or even as other posted earlier, add a single code line to mods like Hunters andrenaline, Rage, Guardian armor (Chroma augment) 

-disable overguard aquisition-

 

********

Edit*

35 pages of ppl wanting a revert of your hotfix DE. 

GJ.

 

 

Edited April 5 by -ShadowRadiance-

[Qui-Les]

I despise the whining in this community nagging about Dante nuking a room while SARYN, MESA, MIRAGE and other frames still do the same thing. I put big money and time in this game to have the thing I just bought be nerfed in less than a week. I'm one more bad move away (like this Dante nerf) to be entirely done with this game. DANTE WIELDS MAGIC (can go through walls)! The LOS change HAS to be rolled back AND not cut IN HALF his overguard. Why not reduce it by a ¼ the overguard he provides? WHY is fun so heavily scrutinized in a PVE GAME??? 

Pd: make the OG be a toggle in the options menu for the players who don't want the OG Dante provides if it hurts their build. THAT would've been a straight to the issue FIX, not gutting the frame.

Edited April 5 by Qui-Les

[-ShadowRadiance-]

8 minutes ago, MortyPrime78 said:

I kind of like the dragon key idea.  People used the decaying key for shield gating builds prior to the changes to shields with Dagath, so I could see that working here in the same way.

Aye, i 100% support this idea. 

[Museigen]

5 minutes ago, Qui-Les said:

I despise the whining in this community nagging about Dante nuking a room while SARYN, MESA, MIRAGE and other frames still do the same thing. I put big time money and time in this game to have the thing I just bought be nerfed in less than a week. I'm one more bad move away (like this Dante nerf) to be entirely done with this game. DANTE WIELDS MAGIC (can go through walls)! The LOS change HAS to be rolled back AND not cut IN HALF. Why not reduce it by a ¼ the overguard he provides? WHY is fun so heavily scrutinized in a PVE GAME??? 

Since reactions are being limited, I'm coming here to give my wholeheart support to this message. Not one of the applied changes were warranted.
And I support the dragon key idea to overguard to solve the anti-sinergy they provide to self-hurt builds and such.

Edited April 5 by Museigen

[YuWhi]

Initially, I thought that the changes were to some extent for the better, because now you can sacrifice the affected area for the sake of strength and still be quite effective in destroying enemies in front of you, but alas, this turned out to be not the case at all.

Yes, pure damage without multiplying statuses from his 4 was enough for a kill at only level 50, but for high lvl content, such as netra cells or the steel path, you were forced to move and use 3 often in any case, and for this you received good damage from 4 skills.

It was the perfect compromise.
You use 30-40 abilities per minute and get the same as Octavia gets for 3 abilities per minute, but you don’t get bored.I finally fell in love with survival and defense thanks to Dante.

All that had to be done was to remove the overguard for allies, and ideally make it an augment, similar to the revenant.

Now his attacking abilities simply don’t make sense, because I can do the same thing using a torid or nukor, while doing 2 clicks, not 30.
I'll probably still continue to use it purely because it's the only flying male frame, but now it's just another gun stand, like dozens of others.

  p.s. The text was translated using Google Traslate, sorry if anyone had difficulty reading.

[Xenevier]

3 minutes ago, YuWhi said:

Initially, I thought that the changes were to some extent for the better, because now you can sacrifice the affected area for the sake of strength and still be quite effective in destroying enemies in front of you, but alas, this turned out to be not the case at all.

Yes, pure damage without multiplying statuses from his 4 was enough for a kill at only level 50, but for high lvl content, such as netra cells or the steel path, you were forced to move and use 3 often in any case, and for this you received good damage from 4 skills.

It was the perfect compromise.
You use 30-40 abilities per minute and get the same as Octavia gets for 3 abilities per minute, but you don’t get bored.I finally fell in love with survival and defense thanks to Dante.

All that had to be done was to remove the overguard for allies, and ideally make it an augment, similar to the revenant.

Now his attacking abilities simply don’t make sense, because I can do the same thing using a torid or nukor, while doing 2 clicks, not 30.
I'll probably still continue to use it purely because it's the only flying male frame, but now it's just another gun stand, like dozens of others.

  p.s. The text was translated using Google Traslate, sorry if anyone had difficulty reading.

caliban so bad you forgot he flies as well lol, but seriously i agree the change to his damaging ability was unnecessary 

[AR_Has]

5 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

 

We appreciate the video, since it showcases the problem with the current Line of Sight checks in a very analytical and accurate way.  However, the behavior in the video is what is being fixed. See attached video for the upcoming improvements to how we check for LOS that were mentioned in the first post.

do you only listen to what you want to listen to? cant u see the pages telling you not to nerf the ability? why los if dark verse need los , why double it? it deals no damage without dark verse , i bet you dont play the game , how disconnected are you? you removed a cool mechanic where u can mark enemies around you with dark verse then use tragedy to kill them , he is not even top  6 in nuking and u still butcher him , i want my money and time back , u lied , rebecca and megan both lied , shame on u all 

[RitaSanderson]

Sorry DE but changing the way warframe works after only a WEEK since the release isn't looking good

[YuWhi]

7 минут назад, Xenevier сказал:

caliban so bad you forgot he flies as well lol, but seriously i agree the change to his damaging ability was unnecessary 

Caliban levitates only in a static position, while Dante levitates constantly (except when his ability is disabled by nullifiers) 😊

As a fan of magic classes in various MMOs, I get great aesthetic pleasure from this.

[JustinJustinJustinJustin]

Get rid of the line of sight requirement for dante DE

 

Bait and switching a frame after people have spent resources and money on him after a week is real nasty

[Ash_KruXader]

Bait and switch 👎

[Slobunt]

Bait and Switch

[Nero.DMC]

16 minutes ago, YuWhi said:

Caliban levitates only in a static position, while Dante levitates constantly (except when his ability is disabled by nullifiers) 😊

As a fan of magic classes in various MMOs, I get great aesthetic pleasure from this.

"Magic" his magic is no longer even worth casting, he is a gun wf like the majority of wf now with bad skills xD

1 minute ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I just see a brunch of kids  crying, we need to be real here you all love the broken things then wen u bored of that broken thing you gonna exige difficulty for sure so stop the farse. 

It is obvious that it is not based on just the word of the players, which is what you cry the most for, if that were the case all Warframes would be all casters, dps and we would not need weapons, all of this it is because you all love the broken things , the nerf is fine whether you like it or not.

Its bugged to an extreme and unwarranted on top of that Dante was not pulling numbers like the good frames to begin with.

[Ishwar06]

1 hour ago, MortyPrime78 said:

I kind of like the dragon key idea.  People used the decaying key for shield gating builds prior to the changes to shields with Dagath, so I could see that working here in the same way.

+1 for the dragon key idea

[Askell91]

Revert the changes and make the overguard ont affect allies. Thats all you had to do DE. My god poor Dante lasted 6 days. -,-'

[0_The_F00l]

I haven't gotten around to testing the new changes yet ,

But even I know that LoS in the game is inconsistent , so I fully believe that this was a poor choice to make. Hope you look at los as a mechanic beyond just Dante when you do the fixes.

I am also not sure the changes to paragrimm flight were needed , it's a nice subtle ability that adds some good utility via distractions and status vulnerability , the unscripted status damage boost was in my opinion what actually had the effect of making his dark verse and indirectly tragedy such a potent ability.

The way archon intensify will affect the abilities feels slightly disappointing but I can understand the logic,  guess it's just going to be very situational and inconsistent now , will probably replace it , don't feel too strongly for it.

Changes to light verse and triumph will have to be tested before I can comment , but this was expected anyway , so I don't really see a problem for my playstyle as I never used it to cap out OG and was more using the regen to keep my gates up.

Wordwarden changes are welcome but not sure if it's enough ,  I still feel noctua or the ability together still needs some additional passive effects like triggering canticles or invocations somehow.

 

[Slobunt]

9 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Nah you are just bad, I use him today it's like the the same but less broken.

You're S#&amp;&#036;posting. He is bugged. Even DE admitted it.