Dante and LoS Issues and next steps

[MetalMechabolic]

7 minutes ago, BloodyPrimeSkull said:

so many pages of indignation..) Is that enough for you or what else can we do to make you hear us?

Eh, XIV has the same problem in reverse.  Instead of certain OP classes, every class (another word for frame) would essentially preform the same while fitting their kit in a strict 2 minute burst window.  So every class feels the same.  Though the dev's response is the same, "we know that we are doing" while everyone who plays slowly realizes what is going on and slowly leaves the game. Oh well, at least this one let's you solo everything, lol.

 

Edit: is there a free plat giveaway if you support DE?  In that case, they have a very nice looking office!  

Edited April 5 by MetalMechabolic

[MistressOfDreams]

5 minutes ago, sestofish said:

Good work on the nerfs Pablo. People genuinely comparing Dante to frames like Gauss or Wisp have no idea what they're talking about. Keep up the good work and ignore the children acting like it's the end of the world he was nerfed somewhat.

Let him relax for a bit when you’re done, k?

5 minutes ago, sestofish said:

 

5 minutes ago, sestofish said:

Edited April 5 by MistressOfDreams
Multiple quote by accident

[CjoewD]

Can we revert the changes? If LoS is the direction you want Warframe to go, can it be developed more than a day's work? Then apply it to EVERY warframe.

[Waeleto]

2 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

When I see these people crying it reminds me of the Wukong clone nerf and the AOE ammunition nerf xDDDDD they always cry the same. Which shows that the nerf is well justified.

Wukong was dominant, disruptive and automated

Dante is only disruptive because of allies overguard issue which none of the nerfs have addressed yet

[Nash.Equilibrium]

I find the solutions presented are horrible, and absolutely unfair. Dante now is a shell of itself. And the party overguard is still ruining gameplay for party members. Fix what was broken. Don't ruin the Frame. Not fun at all. Some of us spent hours and tons of forma investing into him... and now he is gutted.

 

I don't think I will ever lose the nasty taste you have put in my mouth regarding your decision making over the last few days on this Warframe.

I don't support these changes at all.

Edited April 5 by Nash.Equilibrium

[Zeow31]

Il y a 2 heures, Vazumongr a dit :

I guess I'm in the minority when I say I am in favor of LoS checks and believe that mindless one-button-nukes in a 30m+ radius are bad for the overall health of the game in majority of cases. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Please don't mind the Saryn that's been nuking the entire map with a single button for a decade, no no, the Dante that just arrived at the party is the problem.

[crazywolfpusher]

Calm down people, 

2 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Great, fantastic changes. LoS checks desperately needed some tweaks. 👏 Big thanks for the transparency.

Now the only thing left regarding Dante (and Styanax) is how Overguard is messing up with effects that require you to take health damage. Like Vex Armor, Champion's Blessing, Rage-Hunter Adrenaline (maybe I'm forgetting some).

• I think a fair solution would be let Vex Armor consider Overguard and Shields.
• Champion's Blessing might need a bit more attention.
• Rage-Hunter Adrenaline could disable Overguard  for the user.   

 

[MistressOfDreams]

Just now, crazywolfpusher said:

Calm down people, 

Great, fantastic changes. LoS checks desperately needed some tweaks. 👏 Big thanks for the transparency.

Now the only thing left regarding Dante (and Styanax) is how Overguard is messing up with effects that require you to take health damage. Like Vex Armor, Champion's Blessing, Rage-Hunter Adrenaline (maybe I'm forgetting some).

• I think a fair solution would be let Vex Armor consider Overguard and Shields.
• Champion's Blessing might need a bit more attention.
• Rage-Hunter Adrenaline could disable Overguard  for the user.   

 

We will not calm down if they will not listen like they say they are.

[Zeow31]

Il y a 2 heures, [DE]Pablo a dit :

We botched the LoS change to Dante yesterday, I apologize for shipping it in that state. We will be making changes later today to improve it, details ahead.

One silver lining that came from this mistake is that we have decided we will revisit older LoS checks to use this improved version in a future update.

Old LoS check:
We do a raycast, basically draw a line from you to the enemies center and if nothing interrupts the line along the way they are considered on sight. Raycasts ignore other enemies.
Additionally we had a bug that prevented it from working on ragdolled enemies, so if they were pulled by vortex or whatever they were totally invisible to the ability.

The main problem with this approach(aside from the huge ragdoll bug) is that a single raycast can easily trigger as false if for example there is a small railing between you and the enemy. Abilities like Radial Blind, Vast Untime and Rotorswell for example use this same logic right now. 

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

I'm done with your nonsense DE. The first fun frame on release since what, Styanax ? And just like you kneecap him so that we'd to go back to the same stale, crummy meta.

I'm done, the game is uninstalled, #*!% the Platinum and ressources I've spent on him, I'm just done.

[LordOfKenpo]

3 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

Calm down people, 

Great, fantastic changes. LoS checks desperately needed some tweaks. 👏 Big thanks for the transparency.

Now the only thing left regarding Dante (and Styanax) is how Overguard is messing up with effects that require you to take health damage. Like Vex Armor, Champion's Blessing, Rage-Hunter Adrenaline (maybe I'm forgetting some).

• I think a fair solution would be let Vex Armor consider Overguard and Shields.
• Champion's Blessing might need a bit more attention.
• Rage-Hunter Adrenaline could disable Overguard  for the user.   

 

so the only problem left was the only problem that originally existed?

[RivaAurelius]

17 minutes ago, LordOfKenpo said:

There are 40 more pages on other threads

This is why they keep opening new threads.

[MrDerpHerpin]

i just want my shards back from the refund damnit

[MistressOfDreams]

Just now, CosoMalvadoNG said:

They don't need to listen nonsenses than f*ck up the game jus for some angry players, the same with the wukong nerf and the bad feedback in steam.

Oh you’re the same moron who was comparing this to the Wukong nerf, I shouldn’t waste my time with someone who doesn’t know the real issue that Dante had. Hint hint: Tragedy is not one of them

[RyBone]

Remove the LoS check. It's not fun. His "nuke" was not as good as nukes from other frames. It was not a problem, now you made it a problem. Put the fun back in him. New warframes are the only reason many players like me return and if they are not fun then we don't have a reason to stay. Why would we spend even more time playing the same warframes we have been playing for years.

[ClockworkDirge]

Sorry Pablo, but this is not at all a fix to the issues being reported and feedback the entire community is giving you. Revert the changes entirely and just remove/reduce the Overguard given to allies. That’s all that thread you guys responded to asked for.

 

And if you keep digging in your heels on this unnecessary change that didn’t even fix the anti-synergy with very niche builds; refund those of us who paid our hard-earned money on the supporter pack and paid platinum for the Warframe bundle because you all outright lied about what you were planning to do.

[RivaAurelius]

17 minutes ago, iSiawPrime said:

There’s 50+ pages mostly consisting on players asking DE to REVERT the Tragedy changes, listen to your community for once, we don’t want the LoS on Tragedy full stop.

Quoting this because exactly this.

[TCOO1]

Yay thanks for the update!

Gald to see that Dante getting some extra attention, will give it a go after the next hotfix and see how he has improved.

From the text it looks fine to me now, with LOS meaning literally "If you see the enemy, now you do not" lol

[RivaAurelius]

1 hour ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

If we're going to flex on "whaling," I probably spent a thousand dollars on this game in the last year. I'm a "whale," and I want to have frames be less oppressive and be able to handle less of the total gameplay in a mission. There are too many missions where one person has a kill count of 200+ and others have killcounts of ten, and I'd know. I'm the one *doing* that to the lobby so someone doesn't do it to me first and render my playtime trivial and dull.

Frankly, I play most content solo at this point in order to diversify what I play. The game is in such an unhealthy state when it comes to AoE nukeframes and AoE spam, and it's especially miserable if I'm doing any content outside of steel path, so I have to either race to the bottom and nuke faster or play alone.

So you're going to advocate for Saryn, Styanax and Kullervo (just to name a few) getting nerfed next, right? Keep it consistent.

Dante was nowhere near as "oppressive" as some of the metas that literally exist in the game RIGHT NOW and have existed for a long time. Make it make sense.

[Kerlism]

On 2024-04-05 at 1:33 PM, CosoMalvadoNG said:

They don't need to listen nonsenses than f*ck up the game just for some angry players, the same with the wukong nerf and the bad feedback in steam.

On 2024-04-05 at 1:24 PM, CosoMalvadoNG said:

When I see these people crying it reminds me of the Wukong clone nerf and the AOE ammunition nerf xDDDDD they always cry the same. Which shows that the nerf is well justified.

These both read as pretty bad faith posts, quite the contrast to the numerous amounts of good faith criticism about the Dante nerfs. If your goal is to milk attention, please take it anywhere else.

[ShaloomHD]

Revert the dante nerf your nerf philosophy is BS when theres plenty of frames that needs looking at before dante the only thing that needed looking at was OG too allies and OG not procing rage and so on thats it so revert the nerfs 

Edited April 5 by ShaloomHD

[CoffeeElemental]

11 минут назад, crazywolfpusher сказал:

Rage-Hunter Adrenaline could disable Overguard  for the user.

Hmmmm, I would like to try that.

[Xahn]

If you want to make things right, revert Dante fully, allow Overgaurd to Proc rage/HA and Vex armor, and implement these new LoS fixes to all frames still using LoS. Or totally remove LoS.

Your other option is to double down and implement the "new" LoS system to every frame. see how much of the player base remains after that. I came back from nearly a year of burnout, bcuase of Dante Unbound. Dante was quickly becoming my new favorite frame becuase of how fun he was to play, not how OP he was. I was going to purchase both a Tennocon digital pack and Gauss Prime access today (it's payday). Now? Now I might actually be done with warframe. After 8 years and three thousand hours.

[MistressOfDreams]

1 minute ago, Kerlism said:

These both read as pretty bad faith posts, quite the contrast to the numerous amounts of good faith criticism about the Dante nerfs. If your goal is to milk attention, please take it anywhere else.

Careful, he’ll call you an “all buff” 

[Nobodys-Perfect]

2 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

New LoS check:
First if the enemy is within 5 meters we don't do LoS at all, we just assume they are visible. Then checks if the enemy is being rendered, which works for any enemies on screen, so if you see even their pinky toe, they are considered visible. Then for enemies behind you instead of one raycast it does three, one to the top, another to the center and finally to the feet and if any of them are successful, then we determine it is visible, this means false blocks are much less likely.

Again, this should've never happened, but we will try to make the best of it, and hopefully the overall game will end up better for it.

Cool, now you're gonna make LoS functional, are you gonna put this check on every AoE map clearer ability (Spores, Thermal sunder, peacemaker, mend and maim)? Or is this just going to be more of the hypocrisy in balance going forward we've come to expect at this point?

If tragedy actually deserved it, all map clearers deserve it.

[MetalMechabolic]

Just now, MistressOfDreams said:

Careful, he’ll call you an “all buff” 

Well, it is easier to name call over using an argument.  Then again, I take the path of least resistance as well, lol.