Limbo Rework? You have the instruments-please fix tophat.

[KovakAizek]

You know that one warframe that has exclusively one ability, and three sub-abilities, enabling the first? THE CC frame that has nothing else without augments? The support warframe that is known so much it’s widely encouraged to leave the mission at the sight of him? Warframe who is gutted three consecutive years if not more?

At this point, as Limbo player, I’ll take the opportunity to have a kit that will target those enemies that specifically counter him. Or something that is NOT three abilities to prime enemies with unique status and ONE ability to actually do something to them. What follows is unstructured flow of separate ideas.

1. Change damage types of his abilities to Void(or buff weapons with t, while in the rift), or make Rift/Stasis deteriorate Overguard.

2. Make Rift Surge perform radial banish on enemy kill, or let “unbanish” hold function explode Surged enemies outside of the Rift. As it goes now, your only “damage” build relies on ability that takes control of who is surged and where out of your hands.

3. Stop… Cataclysm… shrinking. It doesn’t make sense and confused teammates and you yourself, due to enemies constantly moving and freezing. If anything, let it grow up, until it goes unstable and explodes. Maybe debuffing enemy, since Limbo is anybody BUT the damage dealer.

4. Revolutionary idea. Make Stasis basekit. There is no point in time when you want enemies be in the rift and not frozen. AND it frees up the slot for something useful.

5. Really, Limbo is the master of the Rift, either Rift or Limbo could do much more with its functionality. Turn off Eximus abilities, redirect bullets from you to other enemies(aka Octavia mallet), make Limbo have regenerative Overguard in the Rift, since you like Overguard so much, open enemies to finishers during Stasis, to at the very least enable some other gameplay than shooting gallery.

Just in case, I’ll say it again-it was just flow of different, separate ideas in my mind. As the matter of fact, there is a lot of other suggestions, covering usability, team-friendly interactions, and quality of life features, like making Banish slow-moving portal.

Edited April 7 by KovakAizek

[Joezone619]

Agreed. 3 of his 4 abilities all do the same thing, they just banish enemies. Stasis and only stasis interacts with the rift, we need more.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

1 hour ago, KovakAizek said:

Change damage types of his abilities to Void(or buff weapons with t, while in the rift), or make Rift/Stasis deteriorate Overguard.

I like to play operator with Limbo as he makes things feel safer, would be nice if somehow operators were in tune with the rift for some reason, amplifying their weapon dmg and abilities. 

1 hour ago, KovakAizek said:

Stop… Cataclysm… shrinking. It doesn’t make sense and confused teammates and you yourself, due to enemies constantly moving and freezing. If anything, let it grow up, until it goes unstable and explodes. Maybe debuffing enemy, since Limbo is anybody BUT the damage dealer.

Yeah. id rather it expand too. I get what they were going for, which was a sort of risk reward thing where you risk not hitting as many enemies on explosion but it never felt right.

1 hour ago, KovakAizek said:

Revolutionary idea. Make Stasis basekit. There is no point in time when you want enemies be in the rift and not frozen.

I gotta disagree here, theres many times where enemies are too far away and i want them to run towards me, i only stop time in a pinch and honestly that feels like so cool to be able to do. A cool feature would be a way for him to teleport a few rifted enemies to the center of the sphere no matter how far away the enemy is, id drool over that foreal foreal.

1 hour ago, KovakAizek said:

Really, Limbo is the master of the Rift, either Rift or Limbo could do much more with its functionality. Turn off Eximus abilities, redirect bullets from you to other enemies(aka Octavia mallet), make Limbo have regenerative Overguard in the Rift, since you like Overguard so much, open enemies to finishers during Stasis, to at the very least enable some other gameplay than shooting gallery.

We dont have any frames that really interact with operators well so i really hope thats what would happen with this. Or maybe the Rift is able to possess warframes that the player isnt using? Both? Possibilities

 

Edit: Also fix the duration of banished enemies outside of Cataclysm to maybe 10 seconds and make the enemy transparent. That 1 ability is a big part of why i dont like having limbos on my team. It literally just makes the game feel like your lagging

Overall like your post tho m8 👍 

Edited April 7 by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim

[S7ORM]

1) I do like the idea of frozen enemies being open to finishers, but I think that would be made best into a synergy between 1 and 2: enemies targeted by Banish while Stasis is active are sent into the rift and opened for finishers.

That ties in with Banish's role as a single-target, priority-target ability (enabling a certain playstyle while remaining a valid option to subsume over for other playstyles).

 

2) Swap Rift Surge and it's augment. The existing function of the ability just serves to confuse both squadmates and Limbo players themselves. I never use it, because who wants random banished enemies scattered around? Nobody. You want to your banished enemies in a known position.

 

3) Alternatively, surged enemies could pull (magus anomaly style) nearby enemies together when they exit the rift instead of banishing them. Think of it like a bubble in spacetime popping and forming a brief vacuum.

This would synergize with the kit both for aiming Cataclysm to trap large groups of enemies, and for actually ever having a use to hold 1 and unbanish enemies. Also gives teammates a reason to enjoy having a Limbo on the team.

Surge could become a targeted ability instead, in this case, or use some sort of nn-clustering to avoid the 3-body problem.

[BoredFinno]

Again, ideas that actively disable his original intent and design. His 3 abilities do the same thing as their intent is to enable a really safe playstyle, to generally reduce the amount of time limbo spends in material plane, as rift is his unique way of "tanking". Everything that is present in his kit is very well thought out and put in for a reason.

Can we argue that Rift lost it's master survivability? Sure. This just means things can be added to Rift itself, like reducing status duration on limbo while in rift, giving some dr, silencing abilities of enemies inside rift, possibilities are endless.

13 hours ago, KovakAizek said:

2. Make Rift Surge perform radial banish on enemy kill, or let “unbanish” hold function explode Surged enemies outside of the Rift. As it goes now, your only “damage” build relies on ability that takes control of who is surged and where out of your hands.

Forcing a non-dps frame to rely on a kill to enable his gameloop is not a good idea. It removes the main, most broken combo of propagating banishment through banish -> rift surge -> hold banish -> rift surge -> hold banish  to cover the whole tile in rift. This combo requires one to be present in material plane ONLY ONCE and changing this functionality hurts his survivability. Don't let me start on how its current function actually allows limbo to play against nullyfiers. This should be an augment if anything, on this i can agree, but completely changing how it currently work is a bad idea, also cause of its interaction with cataclysm. Speaking of which:

13 hours ago, KovakAizek said:

3. Stop… Cataclysm… shrinking. It doesn’t make sense and confused teammates and you yourself, due to enemies constantly moving and freezing. If anything, let it grow up, until it goes unstable and explodes. Maybe debuffing enemy, since Limbo is anybody BUT the damage dealer.

There are couple of reasons cataclysm works like this:

1. Discourages "set-and-forget" playstyle
2. Propagates Banishment of the enemies beyond cataclysm's range in combination with rift surge

To question, why would anyone want the 2nd scenario? Well, most of you ppl seem to take issue with how enemies keep being in and out on the edges cause its shrinking constantly; surge helps with that and is again a reason why the change to "on-kill" isn't good. Cataclysm will never be changed to not shrink or god forbid even expand because of the 1st clause i wrote, so this is the next best thing. And as to "oh, but its so annoying, no one else can shoot the enemy then and he is frozen far away and is halting the defense", yeah, no S#&$. What do u think banish hold function is for? If they are in this scenario, its not kit's problem, its players skill issue. Pay attention to the battlefield and use the kit as it was intended. As for killing, its really not that hard to stand in cataclysm and shoot your gun outside of it. This again comes down to not understanding how rift works.

13 hours ago, KovakAizek said:

4. Revolutionary idea. Make Stasis basekit. There is no point in time when you want enemies be in the rift and not frozen. AND it frees up the slot for something useful.

Great idea, this change alone would make limbo the most undesirable teammate in 80% of the content, even more than he already is. He actually is because most Limbos keep this active all the time, instead of turning it on and off depending on the state of the battlefield. Limbo's kit on itself can run out of control on its own and limbo needs all the tools to get it back in line/under control.

13 hours ago, KovakAizek said:

1. Change damage types of his abilities to Void(or buff weapons with t, while in the rift), or make Rift/Stasis deteriorate Overguard.

Yeah, we can change the damage type of his abilities, but it wont do much for him as his ability damage is piss-low. Forget about overguard deterioration, its clear DE doesnt want abilities with no damage to interact with overguard in any ways possible. 

13 hours ago, KovakAizek said:

5. Really, Limbo is the master of the Rift, either Rift or Limbo could do much more with its functionality. Turn off Eximus abilities, redirect bullets from you to other enemies(aka Octavia mallet), make Limbo have regenerative Overguard in the Rift, since you like Overguard so much, open enemies to finishers during Stasis, to at the very least enable some other gameplay than shooting gallery.

Yeah, sure. Problem with expanding what limbo can do with it makes his playstyle unbearably active, hence why his base kit is fine as it is. As i said before, sure, adding something more to boost rift's survivability, like silencing enemies inside of it, or reducing status duration on limbo while in rift. Notice how these suggestions all try to build on the original idea of the rift? Rift is 1st and foremost a unique survivability tool. Good rework consists on building onto what is already present and reinforcing the original intent. If you take a look at most of warframe's reworks, they all fall within this rule (except hydroid's, while he is a powerhouse now, his synergies were destroyed in the rework, removing the control over his kit he used to have, thus why i consider it not a good rework).

Limbo's kit at first glance deceives most new players think that he is very much a set and forget frame. It doesn't help that people even refuse to understand it and just immediately call it disruptive. Generally, his disruptiveness comes from lack of experience and understanding from both sides. You need to pay attention to where enemies are frozen, you need to unfreeze them, you need to control your kit, lest your kit controls. What is the saying again, "fire is a great servant, but ruthless ruler", (idk, we at least have a saying that goes something along those lines).

Edited April 7 by BoredFinno

[KovakAizek]

10 часов назад, BoredFinno сказал:

Everything that is present in his kit is very well thought out and put in for a reason.

Wrong. It was a rushed rework idea due to original state of Limbo being “regular shooter, but now you have to single out each enemy with no apparent upside”.

10 часов назад, BoredFinno сказал:

Forcing a non-dps frame to rely on a kill to enable his gameloop is not a good idea.

Transferring Surge to random unrifted enemy too. That’s why I proposed at least make Surge detonate on “hold 1”, no matter the dimension of Surged enemy.

10 часов назад, BoredFinno сказал:

• Discourages "set-and-forget" playstyle
• Propagates Banishment of the enemies beyond cataclysm's range in combination with rift surge

Your second point just contradicts first one. If you want to lock the map, you still can do it with “hold 1-3”.

10 часов назад, BoredFinno сказал:

Great idea, this change alone would make limbo the most undesirable teammate in 80% of the content, even more than he already is. He actually is because most Limbos keep this active all the time, instead of turning it on and off depending on the state of the battlefield.

10 часов назад, BoredFinno сказал:

What do u think banish hold function is for?

You answered your own question, mate. If you want enemies to move-get them out of the Rift. If you turn off Stasis while enemies is in the Rift with you, you doing something wrong.

 

10 часов назад, BoredFinno сказал:

Problem with expanding what limbo can do with it makes his playstyle unbearably active

I read “engaging” and see this as absolute win. Along with Hydroid, who lost the puddle, but got nice gameplay loop that doesn’t consists on staying in one place and suffocating enemies by dozens with Pull and Unairu.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Limbo aka the one frame that actually killed himself in the lore. Yeah I bet other frames with the same kit also would find a way to do so as well.

 

Refered in the game files as magician, has a top hat, doesn't cast spells outside of "STOP! Hammer Time!". Cataclysm has the aesthetics of a nuke ability, yet it's nothing more than a worse version of Frost's Snowglobe.

 

Stasis doesn't even really help outside picking enemies or defending players in the rift which, surprise surprise, they do NOT want to be in.

 

Rift Surge is just a convoluted way of using Banish.

 

 

 

The number one issue Limbo has is that you can cast any ability he has, if you're not pressing another, then that one first ability basically does nothing :

• Banish just on its own is pointless, you just send enemies in the rift, but you can't do anything to them unless you also go into it with a dodge roll.
• Stasis just on its own is useless, since it just stops enemies from moving in the rift, but you have to send some in there first.
• Rift Surge on its own is not usable, since you cannot apply it to enemies that are not in the rift.
• Cataclysm just on its own is very limited. There is no reason for you to send enemies to the rift if you're not going to affect them with anything. The best you can do with JUST Cataclysm is prevent damage from attackers that are not inside it. Or you can regenerate energy on targets you kill inside of it, after you spent 100 of it for no real reason.

 

I hate to say it, but I doubt they're going to rework rift boy, considering they admitted having no ideas to rework Loki in any way possible. Kinda sad we're gonna have to keep on pretending he's good just because he has a unique theme.

[BoredFinno]

45 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

Wrong. It was a rushed rework idea due to original state of Limbo being “regular shooter, but now you have to single out each enemy with no apparent upside”.

Far from it. It's well thought out no matter how you look at it. Every ability flows into one another.

46 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

Transferring Surge to random unrifted enemy too. That’s why I proposed at least make Surge detonate on “hold 1”, no matter the dimension of Surged enemy.

Random enemy sure is unreliable, i've been thinking why it was made this way. No matter how you look at it, transferring to the closest unrifted enemy seems to make way more sense no matter how you look at it. But thats the whole change this ability needs. I stand by saying your proposal should be an augment.

49 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

Your second point just contradicts first one. If you want to lock the map, you still can do it with “hold 1-3”.

It's not my point, its a fact. Doing it with 1-3 combo takes way more time and way more energy. It also takes some engagement with the kit instead of just casting a single ability. It also doesn't contradict it, as surge affects enemies within limbo's range, not every rifted enemy anywhere. There is still a limit to how far this goes unless you are moving. And surprise, its 9m bigger at base than cataclysm, for this reason.

56 minutes ago, KovakAizek said:

You answered your own question, mate. If you want enemies to move-get them out of the Rift. If you turn off Stasis while enemies is in the Rift with you, you doing something wrong.

So you want to tell me you wouldn't rather spend 50 energy to quickly tap 2 twice to allow cordon to group enemies, or let them move slightly towards where they need to be? Be my guest, go through triple casting banish and surge. Oh right, didn't your idea make surge trigger on kill instead? Either way, both cost way more energy, way more time and you really sometimes just want to slightly move enemies. Its not that rare either, but sure, not that often too. Shield gate allows you to take that hit. I'd rather preserve this option personally. Also, making it the default state of rift sounds a bit too strong to me.

1 hour ago, KovakAizek said:

I read “engaging” and see this as absolute win. Along with Hydroid, who lost the puddle, but got nice gameplay loop that doesn’t consists on staying in one place and suffocating enemies by dozens with Pull and Unairu.

There is a fine line between enjoyable micro-managing and obnoxious one. As i said, i think limbo is plenty engaging as he is currently. Im constantly pressing all 4 buttons with him. Adding more would feel overwhelming and would be a sure one way ticket to carpal tunnel. And you say this about hydroid because you don't understand what he lost. Puddle wasn't supposed to be removed, it needed a sandstorm treatment. It was a trap for anyone inexperienced with him, as they would simply think that his gameloop is to stay in puddle. By losing puddle, hydroid lost a good way to group and bombard enemies, Puddle was the exact range of his one. He lost the possibility to group his tentacles, puddle did that. Now, you cant choose between a choke point bombardment or wide area lockdown, akin to divine spears. This is quite annoying as it slows defense type missions without any way for him to end it prematurely. His 4 now has no synergy with his 1 as their ranges dont match at all. One cant argue that he isn't strong now, but he fall more under "rushed rework because of his state" that you mentioned at the start. He became a bland weapon's platform, or a "caster" that simply spams one ability over and over, until that single button dies. Thats not engaging, thats braindead. If anything was meant to be taken out for plunder, its tidal  surge.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2024-04-07 at 9:57 PM, BoredFinno said:

He became a bland weapon's platform, or a "caster" that simply spams one ability over and over, until that single button dies. Thats not engaging, thats braindead. If anything was meant to be taken out for plunder, its tidal  surge.

You really looked at the overwhelming positive comments people gave to Hydroids rework and said "yea DE did a bad job here, why would DE give players exactly what they wanted? Clearly rushed"

His puddle was cool, but to say his rework is now bad or rushed because of the lost of it is actually absurd. His 1 primes enemies for death on his 4, his plunder grants him the ability to live, his tidal wave is great for  alternative mobility that feels amazing when you need to recover shields/reposition. Like youre Posiden or something.

His playstyle is largely the same as before except when you only had niche scenarios to cast his abilities, now you can cast them whenever and always help your team when you do it. I just remembered tidal wave carries enemies so you can not only reposition but clean up and dispose of the trash.

Im sorry no, i tried to see where youre coming from but the more details i remember thatss been added to him, the more its clear as day that rework is not rushed. Hes the same as before but with abilities that serve purpose, which is all reworks are really aimed to do

Edited April 9 by (PSN)Frost_Nephilim

[BoredFinno]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

You really looked at the overwhelming positive comments people gave to Hydroids rework and said "yea DE did a bad job here, why would DE give players exactly what they wanted? Clearly rushed"

His puddle was cool, but to say his rework is now bad or rushed because of the lost of it is actually absurd. His 1 primes enemies for death on his 4, his plunder grants him the ability to live, his tidal wave is great for  alternative mobility that feels amazing when you need to recover shields/reposition. Like youre Posiden or something.

His playstyle is largely the same as before except when you only had niche scenarios to cast his abilities, now you can cast them whenever and always help your team when you do it. I just remembered tidal wave carries enemies so you can not only reposition but clean up and dispose of the trash.

Im sorry no, i tried to see where youre coming from but the more details i remember thatss been added to him, the more its clear as day that rework is not rushed. Hes the same as before but with abilities that serve purpose, which is all reworks are really aimed to do

I made a thread of what his rework should have been imo, that both keeps the old hydroid's functions while also not touching how the new ones works. I dont want to get deeper into hydroid in a limbo thread, if you want to read it, to truly see where im coming from, you can prob dig it up through my profile, heck, dm me if you want to, ill dig it up for you. His 1 isn't a priming tool, its a killing tool now, and it does not synergize with his 4 as you want some range on it, yet building range automatically removes that synergy with his one. What should have been done with he puddle has been done with inaroses sandstrom.

[Digital-Dreams]

On 2024-04-06 at 8:36 PM, KovakAizek said:

Change damage types of his abilities to Void(or buff weapons with t, while in the rift)

I think making his weapons imbued with void energy in the rift and damage types changed to void would help a bit.

I think his 1 and 3 need the biggest fixes, along with those who are in the Rift getting a visual overhaul. Maybe those in the Rift should be somewhat transparent or invisible to those outside the Rift, it would help distinguish who is in the Rift.

Banish: This should charge one or multiple enemies that are not in the rift, and then killing them would make them explode in rift energy and bring others into the rift. The explosion could either be a wave or something like Wisp's Breach Surge projectiles, that way it wouldn't affect teammates.

• It pretty much just takes what Rift Surge does, but makes it apply to enemies outside the Rift instead of inside while being a little less obnoxious to teammates. I feel like Banish, unlike Catraclysm, should have a bit more of a snowball effect on enemies, bringing more and more enemies into the rift while Cataclysm is a set area where it happens. Cataclysm locks off a whole area to the Rift, while Banish should be used a bit more actively to bring enemies elsewhere into the Rift.

Rift Surge: I think this should either be some kind of buffing ability to teammates who enter the Rift or make enemies in the Rift suffer DoT so that they will slowly die while in the Rift. If it was a buff, then I think it should let allies heal in the rift while also giving them void damage on their weapons which can carry over for some time outside the rift. If it was a DoT then it should do void damage every second, affecting those who are already in the rift and those who just enter.