PC PC Dante Unbound: Hotfix 35.5.6

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

25 minutes ago, Karyst said:

Your replies only highlight that you don't pay attention to the things you replying to and continue to educate people that already know and told that they know and because of that, I'm out.

Buddy, you've been avoiding addressing the substance of my arguments for several pages. You even did it in this very post. If you wanted to have a conversation, we probably could have, but you were more interested in beating people over the head with how sad/mad the nerfs made you feel, and how that justifies demanding DE revert the entirely reasonable changes that they made to his kit. I understand that you feel bad/sad/mad, but that doesn't change the fact that Dante was too powerful for what DE wanted for the game. Case closed. That's it. GG no re.

Edited April 18 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Karyst]

55 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Buddy, you've been avoiding addressing the substance of my arguments for several pages. You even did it in this very post. If you wanted to have a conversation, we probably could have, but you were more interested in beating people over the head with how sad/mad the nerfs made you feel, and how that justifies demanding DE revert the entirely reasonable changes that they made to his kit. I understand that you feel bad/sad/mad, but that doesn't change the fact that Dante was too powerful for what DE wanted for the game. Case closed. That's it. GG no re.

There is no GG no re. There was never a discussion between me and you because you don't represent DE nor can you change anything in the game even tho you act like it. You are nothing but an end user of a product made by company to make them money and your ideas regarding DA and how DE blocked new players accessing content that they said that they created as an end game content suggests that you want DE work for free to entertain the masses. What makes you celebrate that you won an arguement is also a mystery? Is it the neighbor you mentioned earlier who after you told him how you won some arguement without giving context praised you? Don't bother answering.

[BoochieKatt]

45 minutes ago, Karyst said:

There is no GG no re. There was never a discussion between me and you because you don't represent DE nor can you change anything in the game even tho you act like it. You are nothing but an end user of a product made by company to make them money and your ideas regarding DA and how DE blocked new players accessing content that they said that they created as an end game content suggests that you want DE work for free to entertain the masses. What makes you celebrate that you won an arguement is also a mystery? Is it the neighbor you mentioned earlier who after you told him how you won some arguement without giving context praised you? Don't bother answering.

Cleared

[SneakyErvin]

22 hours ago, Karyst said:

Lot of people are saying that abilities having Los is in inconsistency for once again multiple reasons regurgitated multiple times on this forum alone. For those not paying attention, one enemy covering fully line of sight on an enemy behind them, visible in the Kengineers video as an example, also based on my experience before I even read patch notes from update where they added Los, environment obstacles which there are plenty in Sanctum, furthermore it was highlighted here that using 3 3 4 combo is infact inconsistent because an enemy may walk behind an obstacle before you can cast 4 and thus not detonate, an obstacle being anything that counts as one, this is inconsistent even when compared to Saryn that can "mark" with her 1 that requires Los and then blast an area that doesn't have Los and it increases spore damage, sevagoths  sow requires Los but reap that detonates enemies marked with sow does NOT have Los and so on. Just few examples to bring the users up do date with mechanics present in the game at this moment compared to subject in question named Dante.

Those parts of his video are outdated. Those were fixed with the implementation of the new LoS system, which went live the day after Tragedy recieved a LoS mechanic and last week for Dark Verse that used the old buggy LoS system prior to that. So none of the obstacles people bring up are big issues now. They were issues for 2 weeks on Dark Verse and for 1 day on Tragedy, with a few minor bugs to iron out. And an enemy walking away from LoS is not an inconsistency, that is just the enemy walking away from your LoS since you were... well... slow. Also, people need to realize, Saryn doesnt deal remotely close to the damage of someone like Dante. She can wipe by ignoring LoS sure, but it isnt effective compared to her playing around LoS i.e using guns or melee to keep her DoTs rolling. Dark Verse deals more damage straight out the door as a reliable DoT compared to spores. As to Sevagoth, he is in a rather terrible state overall in comparison to Dante, no matter how his skills work. Dante is still extremely powerful as a damage dealer and a tank/support/buffer/debuffer at the same time.

The overall inconsistencies with Dante were bigger at release than they are now, since Dark Verse used the terrible old LoS system. That there are some few bugs left does not mean the current version is worse of. The real "issues" are those of the people that want to nuke through solid walls.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

that is the problem, there was nothing wrong with it, it already exist too, its not even new. Given the state of the first patch i think you are giving waaaaaay too much credit to how much they tested and considered things through

Apparently there was according to DE. And that it already exsists doesnt mean that DE doesnt want to avoid it in future releases. Also, who the hell cares about the first patch? They fixed that in 1 day. And since none of the players caught onto the Dark Verse issues for a whole week, pointing fingers at DE for not testing the LoS is disengenous. An immensly popular frame and most people found no issues with the same terrible LoS that went live with Tragedy aswell? Yes, point fingers at the very limited testers within the company while thousands upon thousands of players didnt catch on... makes perfect sense.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

You are trying to create a problem than never existed to begin with, nobody was annoyed with dark verse, everyone liked Dante on release, you are literally the only person i have even heard of having a problem with original dark verse, but sure it got better nice, we can drop talking about dark verse now, its completely irrelevant to the discusion about tragedy keeping LoS.

Except that every person blaming Tragedy were in reality projecting Dark Verse problems onto Tragedy.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

100% disagree, the whole point of tragedy is not having to wait for stuff to die from dots, you detonate them in order to not wait the 2 or 3 ticks (or whatever many ticks it can take for something to die) like could you play without tragedy? sure it would just be a lot of waiting for stuff dying from damage over time, dante would still be strong as well, he would just be really annoying to play.

Well "having to wait" isnt really a thing. I mean, you said you DoTed things up as you moved so you could detonate to get rid of them. Those things should already be dead as you move on, the need to detonate shouldnt be there if it is the things behind the wall you are talking about. Which it seems to be regarding how you've reasoned regarding cramped areas. This is not about nuking in general, since if it is and you are running around to prime, then the first targets are already very likely dead where you left them thanks to Dark Verse.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

how players feels while playing is the single most important thing in a game, if players get bored they dont play and dont pay. the game needs to feel fun and enjoyable, Dante itself dropped drastically in popularity from the first week to now, a lot of people were having fun and spending money with him, some people still do but a lot was lost just for that useless change. It does not benefit much and it does not even make him weaker, its just an annoyance and on top of that they released the patch in such a state was even worse.

No, balance and a development vision should be the most important part. And if you think feelings should play the biggest role, then you should be happy, since a wider portion of players were likely happy to see room nuking gone on Dante, so they now have something to do in low level content while ending up with him. Which is undeniably one of the reasons why he was changed the way he was. Or are you saying that Dante was played by the majority of people and those people make up the majority of opinions? If so the change also goes inline with DE philosophy on dominance.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Sure you can have your opinion, its just not shared by most players, the change was bad (you like it or not), its pointless, annoying, and literally made ppl stop playing a fun frame. Annoying your players will never be a good change.

What "most players"? The vocal negative minority that is mostly the one heard even if they are a minority?

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Again discussing something really irrelevant, but no, your intentions are irrelevant, if you make something weaker you just nerfed it, definitions do not change based on what you wanted to do, was he stronger before the patch? YES, was he weaker after the patch? YES -> thats a nerf, the original design is irrelevant.

Or you could go and read up on the meaning of nerf versus buff vs fix and so on? And no, it wasnt a nerf, since it removed something not intended to be there. Reduction to OG = nerf, since the value was intended from release but was then seen as too much. Nezha augment = nerf since it was intended to have full range but seen as too powerful after the actual release.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

You hit the nail in the head here, its not, wich makes me all the more annoyed when i have to wait 2 ticks for something to die when i already hit him and detonated the group he was part of... but based on something out of my control he is slighly out of LoS so now i have to either go back and hit him with something else or wait for him to die... annoying AF and it literally does not change anything he is a dead man walking but my detonator skill no longer works because he moved a bit to the left, just the extra annoyance of having to go back or just move on and let it die once i am out of loot range...

So you've now changed the story of wanting to nuke as you get away from cramped spaces to simple nuking? And no, "slightly out of LoS" is not how the new LoS works. You are at this point exaggerating massively. And what you are hung up on was as much part of things when Tragedy had no LoS, since Dark Verse failed far more often at applying the DoT to detonate. Which resulted in a worse situation since the mob wasnt even left with a DoT to kill it.

8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

i think you just do not realize how many times enemies get stuck or slighly out of your LoS, maybe you just play in a differente way than i do, i play marking and detonating moving between packs, i completely dislike spamming tragedy on every pack, i want to mark and detonate, loot and move on. not 223 223 223 spam (wich is how some people play and its completely valid, not having LoS would not change how they can play, it would just let me enjoy how i liked Dante)

If I move between packs to prime in order to have a massive bunch to detonate I will not have much left to detonate out of those I leave behind, since Dark Verse will finish them before I've primed the rest. Which is why I see zero reason in having enemies come from all directions in the first place. Plus it is a #*!%ing chore to run back in order to loot. So I rather 3+3+4 or 3+3+melee depending on how far the enemies are from me.

[sh0shin]

37 minutes ago, tartcactus said:

Two weeks to the day. That is how long I had to wait to get a response on my trouble ticket. Either there are a bunch of unhappy customers or the support team just doesn't care anymore, or both. I am thankful to get a response, just really disappointed at the response time. Seems like Primed Disappointment has been dropped into a lot of areas of the game lately.

Can't say for sure but I think they contract support through Zendesk anyway, so who knows

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

5 hours ago, Karyst said:

There is no GG no re.

There clearly is a GG no re, here, because DE won this argument. Started it, finished it; case closed, what they say, goes.

5 hours ago, Karyst said:

What makes you celebrate that you won an arguement is also a mystery? Is it the neighbor you mentioned earlier who after you told him how you won some arguement without giving context praised you? Don't bother answering.

Oh my god, you thought I was talking about us. LMAO.

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There was never a discussion between me and you because you don't represent DE nor can you change anything in the game even tho you act like it. You are nothing but an end user of a product made by company to make them money and your ideas regarding DA and how DE blocked new players accessing content that they said that they created as an end game content suggests that you want DE work for free to entertain the masses.

This is just weird. We had a discussion, or rather I tried to have a fruitful discussion and you rambled about slave labor, philosophy, and human nature. I never claimed to represent DE, and your delusions otherwise reinforce why it's so difficult to get anywhere with you. Seriously. Pay attention to what I am saying, not whatever's going on in the clouds over your shoulder.

[Nero.DMC]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Apparently there was according to DE. And that it already exsists doesnt mean that DE doesnt want to avoid it in future releases. Also, who the hell cares about the first patch? They fixed that in 1 day. And since none of the players caught onto the Dark Verse issues for a whole week, pointing fingers at DE for not testing the LoS is disengenous. An immensly popular frame and most people found no issues with the same terrible LoS that went live with Tragedy aswell? Yes, point fingers at the very limited testers within the company while thousands upon thousands of players didnt catch on... makes perfect sense.

literally played for less than 5 minutes after the tragedy LoS changes and noticed it was beyond broken, there are many clips of streamers literally testing them and less than a few minutes was enough to notice it was broken, DE were ashamed of what they released... All this is just indicative they did not take the TIME to think it trough, if they had no time to test it i guarantee they did not really think it through... NO ONE WAS RUSHING THEM... if their QA team was busy they should have waited, tested and ship stuff that is ready, being understaffed is like the best reason to take things slow, they did not (and the result was clear as day to anyone that dont want to be extremely apologetic of DE, like you in this particular sentence, there is no excuse for what they released, no developer team would do that and not feel extremely ashamed, and they did feel ashamed at least)

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Except that every person blaming Tragedy were in reality projecting Dark Verse problems onto Tragedy.

Huge lie. this is the most blatant lie i have seen you telling.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well "having to wait" isnt really a thing. I mean, you said you DoTed things up as you moved so you could detonate to get rid of them. Those things should already be dead as you move on, the need to detonate shouldnt be there if it is the things behind the wall you are talking about. Which it seems to be regarding how you've reasoned regarding cramped areas. This is not about nuking in general, since if it is and you are running around to prime, then the first targets are already very likely dead where you left them thanks to Dark Verse.

it is a thing, DoT's are slow, how much time do you think you take to move on WF? its less than a couple of seconds to be in a completely different room... and no, maybe in extremely low areas targets would die from 1 tick of dark verse, but anything 250+ is just an annoyance, they will die for sure from just dark verse but they wont die fast.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Or you could go and read up on the meaning of nerf versus buff vs fix and so on? And no, it wasnt a nerf, since it removed something not intended to be there. Reduction to OG = nerf, since the value was intended from release but was then seen as too much. Nezha augment = nerf since it was intended to have full range but seen as too powerful after the actual release.

You keep trying to rewrite the meaning of nerf.
Nerf: to reduce the effectiveness of (something, such as a character, attribute, or weapon) in a video game.

Unless you change the definition of Nerf, they did nerf him, there is no 2 ways around that.

 

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So you've now changed the story of wanting to nuke as you get away from cramped spaces to simple nuking? And no, "slightly out of LoS" is not how the new LoS works. You are at this point exaggerating massively. And what you are hung up on was as much part of things when Tragedy had no LoS, since Dark Verse failed far more often at applying the DoT to detonate. Which resulted in a worse situation since the mob wasnt even left with a DoT to kill it.

No i most certainly did not... cramped spaces are where this issue is reocurring, you mark, you move, you detonate, stuff that should be dead is still alive... its literally what i have said since day one, let marked targets be targeted without LoS i dont care if stuff i did not mark receive 0 damage.

Can you stop trying to make up an issue with dark verse, no one wants to discuss dark verse, it is fine, it was always fine, you are trying to create an issue that has never existed...

I completely disagree, i had no problem marking from day one with dark verse, i barely notice much difference, dark verse has always been fine.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If I move between packs to prime in order to have a massive bunch to detonate I will not have much left to detonate out of those I leave behind, since Dark Verse will finish them before I've primed the rest. Which is why I see zero reason in having enemies come from all directions in the first place. Plus it is a #*!%ing chore to run back in order to loot. So I rather 3+3+4 or 3+3+melee depending on how far the enemies are from me.

This is indeed true on low level enemies only tho, not so much in anything higher wich is were it gets extremely annoying. and i would get it if this was done to tune him down but in reality its not tuning him down its just annoying not really weaker. i would much rather receive a balance (tho i think he never needed one) weapons still outdps all frames so i would love to see more frames being better or as strong as guns to allow more gameplay styles.

[tartcactus]

Dante still running with Primed Disappointment. We are stuck with yet another frame rendered completely not fun by a game mechanic DE knows does not work, has not worked since they brought it in years ago and their pattern continues to repeat. "We have implemented some tweaks" followed by "The tweaks are not quite where they need to be, we will fix it in a future Cert build". And here we are again. The simple truth is, they either do not want to fix it or they simply cannot fix it. Either way, they seem to simply swat at the problems each time they cause outrage among the community until retracting under the banner of more to come in an unspecified Cert fix and the community throws yet another potentially fun warframe onto the ever growing pile of MR fodder frames, so DE breaths a sigh of relief and goes to work on the next Primed Disappointmemt frame/weapon/ability kit. I hope they can fix it, but I would not advise holding your breath for it. My advice is to do as I have done. Go back to a tried and true old school Main after getting your MR points from Dont-Aye.

He who must not be named, don't bother with a response, you know I do not read anything from you.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

literally played for less than 5 minutes after the tragedy LoS changes and noticed it was beyond broken, there are many clips of streamers literally testing them and less than a few minutes was enough to notice it was broken, DE were ashamed of what they released... All this is just indicative they did not take the TIME to think it trough, if they had no time to test it i guarantee they did not really think it through... NO ONE WAS RUSHING THEM... if their QA team was busy they should have waited, tested and ship stuff that is ready, being understaffed is like the best reason to take things slow, they did not (and the result was clear as day to anyone that dont want to be extremely apologetic of DE, like you in this particular sentence, there is no excuse for what they released, no developer team would do that and not feel extremely ashamed, and they did feel ashamed at least)

In the first patch yes, which is no longer the version we have in the game. It is also the same version that was used for Dark Verse, which you somehow did not notice, not for the first week leading up to the broken "Dark Verse" LoS getting added to Tragedy, or for the week after the Tragedy fix. Also, why are you hung up on a mechanic no longer part of the game for either of the two skills? It is about Dante's current state. No one cares about what was. It also took them 1(!) day to fix that mess.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Huge lie. this is the most blatant lie i have seen you telling.

No it isnt. That is the LoS issue people projected onto Tragedy after the fix/switch over to the new LoS for Tragedy. Which was there for two full week and no one noticed for the first week. Likely since most didnt care about hitting with Dark Verse, since most likely stayed in lowbie content 1HKing with the initial damage of Tragedy. Which makes me think it applies to you aswell even though you claim you played SP. Or did you squat in infested missions maybe? That would explain alot.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

it is a thing, DoT's are slow, how much time do you think you take to move on WF? its less than a couple of seconds to be in a completely different room... and no, maybe in extremely low areas targets would die from 1 tick of dark verse, but anything 250+ is just an annoyance, they will die for sure from just dark verse but they wont die fast.

And in those seconds those mobs are dead. Or do you for some reason revisit "cramped areas" when you've already gotten out of them during the first few minutes of an endless as you try to find a better spot? If so why?

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

You keep trying to rewrite the meaning of nerf.
Nerf: to reduce the effectiveness of (something, such as a character, attribute, or weapon) in a video game.

Unless you change the definition of Nerf, they did nerf him, there is no 2 ways around that.

That means it must have been intended as part of that which they nerf to begin with. A fix is not a nerf. Pageflight was not working as intended, so it was a bug fix and not a nerf. Adding it back as a permanent addition of the skill was a buff though, since it was an addition to how it was intended to work initially.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

No i most certainly did not... cramped spaces are where this issue is reocurring, you mark, you move, you detonate, stuff that should be dead is still alive... its literally what i have said since day one, let marked targets be targeted without LoS i dont care if stuff i did not mark receive 0 damage.

Can you stop trying to make up an issue with dark verse, no one wants to discuss dark verse, it is fine, it was always fine, you are trying to create an issue that has never existed...

I completely disagree, i had no problem marking from day one with dark verse, i barely notice much difference, dark verse has always been fine.

It isnt a made up issue with Dark Verse. There is a reason it is documented by players on the bug forum section in response to knee-jerk "Tragedy LoS bugged", and there is a reason there was a bug fix that went live last week for that skill specifically, hilariously in this very patch "to bring it more inline with Tragedy".

Dark Verse:

• Made Dark Verse’s Line of Sight (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy. 
  • Following the improvements to Tragedy’s LoS last week, we’ve applied the same logic to Dark Verse to ensure enemies within LoS are properly considered to prevent cases where being only partially visible would not trigger the check. This is part of the greater LoS improvements detailed in the “Line of Sight Improvements” section below. 

So can you maybe read patch notes before claiming things are made up?

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

This is indeed true on low level enemies only tho, not so much in anything higher wich is were it gets extremely annoying. and i would get it if this was done to tune him down but in reality its not tuning him down its just annoying not really weaker. i would much rather receive a balance (tho i think he never needed one) weapons still outdps all frames so i would love to see more frames being better or as strong as guns to allow more gameplay styles.

It applies to higher content, since I havent done any low content with Dante whatsoever. My content experience with him is SP Mot and Palus for about 2h, both normal and fissure, SP Circulus Fissure for about 2h, Netracells and EDA, aswell as a Lab fissure survival. And he has no problem competing with my Saryn, he has a far easier time the higher the levels get aswell since he is immortal, so his uptime on damage is near 100%, he also has burst which Saryn just doesnt.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nero.DMC]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

In the first patch yes, which is no longer the version we have in the game. It is also the same version that was used for Dark Verse, which you somehow did not notice, not for the first week leading up to the broken "Dark Verse" LoS getting added to Tragedy, or for the week after the Tragedy fix. Also, why are you hung up on a mechanic no longer part of the game for either of the two skills? It is about Dante's current state. No one cares about what was. It also took them 1(!) day to fix that mess.

yep, first patch is where they added LoS this ofc means they did not think LoS trough they rushed a patch for who knows what reason, not giving it tought and then after noticing how extremely bad the patch was they "fixed it" but the original desition was extremely rushed, so no i dont think they deserve the benefit of the doubt of thinking it trough, to me slapping LoS into Dante was just much easier than balancing him, and since they clearly were in a rush (who knows why) they decided to slap that annoying mechanic into him and clearly did not even test afterwards. 
His current state comes from that patch, so you can't  really say that the patch is not relevant just because his state now is better than after the first patch when you are analising if slapping LoS was the right move you certainly should consider the patch it came in (a extremely rushed untested patch).

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No it isnt. That is the LoS issue people projected onto Tragedy after the fix/switch over to the new LoS for Tragedy. Which was there for two full week and no one noticed for the first week. Likely since most didnt care about hitting with Dark Verse, since most likely stayed in lowbie content 1HKing with the initial damage of Tragedy. Which makes me think it applies to you aswell even though you claim you played SP. Or did you squat in infested missions maybe? That would explain alot.

I asked you for evidence for this claim, you failed to provide it, i asked you just 3 instances of people complaining about it, nothing, i have not seen anything. So what i have left is to believe you against what i experienced first hand or not believe you until you provide evidence of something that i never saw happening even tho i was in the forums all those days.

So provide something or stop lying about it. (your theories are nice but without actual evidence of people complaining they might as well be 100% wrong, i have never seen anyone complaining about DV)

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And in those seconds those mobs are dead. Or do you for some reason revisit "cramped areas" when you've already gotten out of them during the first few minutes of an endless as you try to find a better spot? If so why?

no, they are not, over 250, they wont die that fast, they will die nonetheless but i am way out of the loot range when they do, specially noticeable when they drop marked stuff i am waaaaaay out, again DETONATOR ability not working, the whole point of tragedy is detonation, its clearly no longer working as it should because they rushed to slap LoS mechanic into it.

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That means it must have been intended as part of that which they nerf to begin with. A fix is not a nerf. Pageflight was not working as intended, so it was a bug fix and not a nerf. Adding it back as a permanent addition of the skill was a buff though, since it was an addition to how it was intended to work initially.

Nerf: to reduce the effectiveness of (something, such as a character, attribute, or weapon) in a video game.

i literally pasted the definition of nerf: do you see anywhere "intended" "intentions" or anything of the sort? No? oh then no, a nerf is a nerf no matter your intentions of how it should work. This should not be hard to understand tbh i think you just want to be correct here but you clearly are not. 100% agree adding it after nerfing it was a buff with respect to the the nerf update but it was not a buff respect to the release Dante, since he had it anyway.

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It isnt a made up issue with Dark Verse. There is a reason it is documented by players on the bug forum section in response to knee-jerk "Tragedy LoS bugged", and there is a reason there was a bug fix that went live last week for that skill specifically, hilariously in this very patch "to bring it more inline with Tragedy".

Dark Verse:

• Made Dark Verse’s Line of Sight (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy. 
  • Following the improvements to Tragedy’s LoS last week, we’ve applied the same logic to Dark Verse to ensure enemies within LoS are properly considered to prevent cases where being only partially visible would not trigger the check. This is part of the greater LoS improvements detailed in the “Line of Sight Improvements” section below. 

So can you maybe read patch notes before claiming things are made up?

It is made up LOL, nobody complained about dark verse, they just added extra LoS checks to every skill no matter if people complained about them or not... people complained ONLY about tragedy... again i have asked for evidence of players complaining of dark verse, ofc you are unable to provide any b/c it does not exist, its a completely made up problem that never existed.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It applies to higher content, since I havent done any low content with Dante whatsoever. My content experience with him is SP Mot and Palus for about 2h, both normal and fissure, SP Circulus Fissure for about 2h, Netracells and EDA, aswell as a Lab fissure survival. And he has no problem competing with my Saryn, he has a far easier time the higher the levels get aswell since he is immortal, so his uptime on damage is near 100%, he also has burst which Saryn just doesnt.

your saryn probably suck tbh, Dante is okay, he is just annoying now, for no particular reason, they did not balance him, they slapped LoS instead of balancing him there is no two ways around that, you just play in a way that its not annoying but you are trying to defend a change that screw ppl that play in other ways based on yourself not being affected, you either spam tragedy or have to kill struglers with weapons. i highly doubt you are killing 250+ units with one cast of dark verse.

AGAIN stop trying to discuss issues that dont exist, no one said he is unplayable on high end content... if you want to discuss something you need to find someone with a different view, i feel like half what i need to keep repeating to you are arguments you made up to not be wrong about the only argument i care about:

LoS is bad for Dante tragedy.

Edited April 19 by Nero.DMC

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

yep, first patch is where they added LoS this ofc means they did not think LoS trough they rushed a patch for who knows what reason, not giving it tought and then after noticing how extremely bad the patch was they "fixed it" but the original desition was extremely rushed, so no i dont think they deserve the benefit of the doubt of thinking it trough, to me slapping LoS into Dante was just much easier than balancing him, and since they clearly were in a rush (who knows why) they decided to slap that annoying mechanic into him and clearly did not even test afterwards. 
His current state comes from that patch, so you can't  really say that the patch is not relevant just because his state now is better than after the first patch when you are analising if slapping LoS was the right move you certainly should consider the patch it came in (a extremely rushed untested patch).

There wasnt much to think through since it already exsisted in the game. It just didnt work well with Tragedy. And his current state does not come from that patch, since that LoS does not exsist, it was removed the day after and replaced with the new system.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

I asked you for evidence for this claim, you failed to provide it, i asked you just 3 instances of people complaining about it, nothing, i have not seen anything. So what i have left is to believe you against what i experienced first hand or not believe you until you provide evidence of something that i never saw happening even tho i was in the forums all those days.

So provide something or stop lying about it. (your theories are nice but without actual evidence of people complaining they might as well be 100% wrong, i have never seen anyone complaining about DV)

That is my point. People didnt start complaining until Tragedy got LoS aswell, since at that point they knew LoS was part of the kit, which skipped past many at his initial release. Which also resulted in them thinking it was Tragedy that did it when Dark Verse had the old and wonky LoS check. This patch, which notes we are discussing things in provide all the proof you need that Dark Verse was indeed bugged or well used a poor LoS system.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

no, they are not, over 250, they wont die that fast, they will die nonetheless but i am way out of the loot range when they do, specially noticeable when they drop marked stuff i am waaaaaay out, again DETONATOR ability not working, the whole point of tragedy is detonation, its clearly no longer working as it should because they rushed to slap LoS mechanic into it.

They will, since the EHP wont be much different from entry level SP due to the skill ignoring armor, the biggest impact on damage. And it still works, if you alter your playstyle slightly, by not having enemies spread all over a place.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

It is made up LOL, nobody complained about dark verse, they just added extra LoS checks to every skill no matter if people complained about them or not... people complained ONLY about tragedy... again i have asked for evidence of players complaining of dark verse, ofc you are unable to provide any b/c it does not exist, its a completely made up problem that never existed.

No, it had LoS. Just like every other skill that they bring up in the notes. They get improved checks over the old. Also the key phrase regarding Dark Verse is " (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy." meaning it had worse LoS checking than Tragedy.

15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

your saryn probably suck tbh, Dante is okay, he is just annoying now, for no particular reason, they did not balance him, they slapped LoS instead of balancing him there is no two ways around that, you just play in a way that its not annoying but you are trying to defend a change that screw ppl that play in other ways based on yourself not being affected, you either spam tragedy or have to kill struglers with weapons. i highly doubt you are killing 250+ units with one cast of dark verse.

AGAIN stop trying to discuss issues that dont exist, no one said he is unplayable on high end content... if you want to discuss something you need to find someone with a different view, i feel like half what i need to keep repeating to you are arguments you made up to not be wrong about the only argument i care about:

LoS is bad for Dante tragedy.

No, she just doesnt have burst in her kit without weapons. There is no way to circumvent the need for ticks on Saryn's skills in order for them to kill. And they were never planning on balancing him, since they stated clearly in their devshort that they were happy with his damage. They clearly werent happy with how that damage was applied, which is a different story. I kill enemies with Dark Verse, never said 1. I simply move and cast as I go since it has practically no cast time and allows me to stay mobile while also stacking. I mean, he isnt exactly a hard frame to build given his very forgiving base stats and access to the defenses he has. It's just like with Rhino with a subsumed Dark Verse, it rivals weapons without any need for a detonation tool whatsoever.

[Gaxxian]

hace 17 horas, Nero.DMC dijo:

they rushed a patch for who knows what reason

The reason is to minimize the amount of players that would be able to see the difference between the before and the after with Dante.

The less, the easier to make people say that "they don't understand why others are complaining".

[Nero.DMC]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is my point. People didnt start complaining until Tragedy got LoS aswell, since at that point they knew LoS was part of the kit, which skipped past many at his initial release. Which also resulted in them thinking it was Tragedy that did it when Dark Verse had the old and wonky LoS check. This patch, which notes we are discussing things in provide all the proof you need that Dark Verse was indeed bugged or well used a poor LoS system.

No it did not, i played Dante from day 1, it was FINE everyone i spoke to tought it was fine, it had LoS but it was NOT the same LoS that tragedy got, it was FAR FAR FAR more lenient. this issue never existed you are trying to make it up DV has always been fine stop making S#&$ up.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They will, since the EHP wont be much different from entry level SP due to the skill ignoring armor, the biggest impact on damage. And it still works, if you alter your playstyle slightly, by not having enemies spread all over a place.

Sure something players an control while they are moving on a mision, this has to be the dumbest thing you have said so far. How enemies move beside defence misions or survival misions is completely random from a player perspective.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, it had LoS. Just like every other skill that they bring up in the notes. They get improved checks over the old. Also the key phrase regarding Dark Verse is " (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy." meaning it had worse LoS checking than Tragedy.

we all know it had LoS but it had super lenient LoS as i have told you 500 times already, you seem to just ignore the things i have told you over and over, DV LoS was always fine, it was never annoying, nobody complained about it and you made it up to distract ppl from the real argument that has nothing to do with dark verse. the reason it was in the patch notes its because the improvement to LoS was a think they made for every skill with LoS, so Dark Verse got it, but -->NOBODY COMPLAINED ABOUT DV LoS<-- if you cannot grasp that simple thing and stop bringing up DV just stop talking to me, i am all in for talking and discussion but if i wanted empty answers of stuff i have adressed multiple times i could go talk to my 3y old nephew.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No, she just doesnt have burst in her kit without weapons. There is no way to circumvent the need for ticks on Saryn's skills in order for them to kill. And they were never planning on balancing him, since they stated clearly in their devshort that they were happy with his damage. They clearly werent happy with how that damage was applied, which is a different story. I kill enemies with Dark Verse, never said 1. I simply move and cast as I go since it has practically no cast time and allows me to stay mobile while also stacking. I mean, he isnt exactly a hard frame to build given his very forgiving base stats and access to the defenses he has. It's just like with Rhino with a subsumed Dark Verse, it rivals weapons without any need for a detonation tool whatsoever.

"Rivals weapons"? WOW, not even close, unless you have extremely bad weapons built, literally any decent weapon will outdps Dante pre nerf, Saryn explodes everything, she uses a weapon to DETONATE (remember that word) her DETONATION do not have LoS check, Dante's DETONATION comes from his 4, BUT his 4th has a LoS check wich is extremely bad for a DETONATION ability.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

Important reminder: When people say "DE isn't listening!" what they typically mean is "DE isn't doing what I want!"

[Nero.DMC]

17 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Important reminder: When people say "DE isn't listening!" what they typically mean is "DE isn't doing what I want!"

two important reminders, 1: you are here even tho you are happy with the current state of the game wich means you have no reason to be here beside trying to troll people while offering nothing of value to any discussion.

1: DE Listening would be something along the lines of "we heard the overwhelming majority of you guys wanted to do X but we cant for X reasons" in reality they are just avoiding it, in order to hear something you need to adress it, else nobody will ever know you are listening and it would be the exact same as not listening, hence why people is saying DE is not listening. 

If you are listening and you are doing exactly what you would do when you are not listening people will think you are not listening because your reaction is the exact same as not listening... 

[Quintinw]

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

If you are listening and you are doing exactly what you would do when you are not listening people will think you are not listening because your reaction is the exact same as not listening... 

LISTENCEPTION

Edited April 20 by Quintinw

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

Snip

I mean, you could just listen to what they had to say about it, rather than insisting they're not listening to feedback and accusing everyone who doesn't agree with your feelings of being a troll:

SneakyErvin is a lot less snarky than I am, but he's absolutely got the right of it and gotten you to admit why you stand where you do. So props to him.

1 hour ago, Nero.DMC said:

If you are listening and you are doing exactly what you would do when you are not listening people will think you are not listening because your reaction is the exact same as not listening...

That just means that the feedback you're giving is insufficiently compelling, or they simply don't want to do what you want them to do. As has been said, "I feel sad/bad/mad, so do what I want!" isn't a good argument. If the only acceptable action is for them to revert the Dante changes according to you, how is that any different than what you're accusing them of doing? It doesn't matter to you what they say or do or even if they're listening at all, as long as they aren't doing what you want.

Like I said:

"They aren't listening!" and "They aren't doing what I want!" are often interchangeable when Warframe players are complaining giving feedback.

Edited April 20 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Nero.DMC]

7 hours ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

I mean, you could just listen to what they had to say about it, rather than insisting they're not listening to feedback and accusing everyone who doesn't agree with your feelings of being a troll:

That just means that the feedback you're giving is insufficiently compelling, or they simply don't want to do what you want them to do. As has been said, "I feel sad/bad/mad, so do what I want!" isn't a good argument. If the only acceptable action is for them to revert the Dante changes according to you, how is that any different than what you're accusing them of doing? It doesn't matter to you what they say or do or even if they're listening at all, as long as they aren't doing what you want.

Like I said:

"They aren't listening!" and "They aren't doing what I want!" are often interchangeable when Warframe players are complaining giving feedback.

did you even see the video you sent? they literally explain why they released that shameful update, they never adress why LoS is needed or why LoS in a Detonator is needed or the 100's of pages asking for a removal of LoS... Explaining why they screwed up is not the same as listening to the feedback (also joking about the thing you screwed up about AND on top of that after recognizing the rush and the lies they still did not adress the big problem wich was Tragedy should not have LoS, wich was the overwhelming majority of feedback in forums).

 

Quote

SneakyErvin is a lot less snarky than I am, but he's absolutely got the right of it and gotten you to admit why you stand where you do. So props to him.

Literally repeated the same things i told you, i just think he absorbs a bit more information than you do, at some point repeating the same to you to get the same responses, i felt that you were just a troll (i still think that is your main reason to be here) I have not changed anything, from start of this i have said, they should just balance him correctly, LoS is not a good balance tool, LoS make 0 sense in a detonator.

Edited April 21 by Nero.DMC

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

17 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

did you even see the video you sent? they literally explain why they released that shameful update, they never adress why LoS is needed or why LoS in a Detonator is needed or the 100's of pages asking for a removal of LoS... Explaining why they screwed up is not the same as listening to the feedback.

Ohhhh, I see, unless they use these exact words and address the issue in this specific way as laid out by you, it's all unacceptable.

17 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Literally repeated the same things i told you, i just think he absorbs a bit more information than you do, at some point repeating the same to you to get the same responses, i felt that you were just a troll (i still think that is your main reason to be here) I have not changed anything, from start of this i have said, they should just balance him correctly, LoS is not a good balance tool, LoS make 0 sense in a detonator.

Nah, he got you to be a lot more explicit about it, hence the shoutout to him. And as I recall, you started out by trying to claim this was all about the Quality of Life, and how you don't care about the performance, just the QOL.

Quote

they should just balance him correctly

Ah, and I suppose that you're the one who knows how that should be done, and they should just listen to you? "DE isn't listening!" at its finest.

Edited April 21 by Armadillidium_vulgare

[Nero.DMC]

6 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Ohhhh, I see, unless they use these exact words and address the issue in this specific way as laid out by you, it's all unacceptable.

No, they literally did not talk about the feedback AT ALL... see this is why i feel like you are trolling, you cant be that dumb... why they screwed up a patch is not adressing any feedback from players, it just adress why they screwed the patch, nothing more.

Feedback was: Remove LoS, LoS feels awful, Dante feels unfun to play now after having LoS in tragedy, LoS works pretty bad.

reponse was: we screwed up with the first patch and we aknowledge that LoS was working like crap. (and they made it work better) Cool what about the rest of the feedback?

Quote

Nah, he got you to be a lot more explicit about it, hence the shoutout to him. And as I recall, you started out by trying to claim this was all about the Quality of Life, and how you don't care about the performance, just the QOL.

I am still saying this... it is about his QoL... his performance is still more or less the same (like 100x repeating the same to you and you still dont get it?)

Quote

Ah, and I suppose that you're the one who knows how that should be done, and they should just listen to you? "DE isn't listening!" at its finest.

No i dont know what values he should have to be balanced, to be completely honest i dont think they do either but they should have a much much better chance than anyone else figuring it out, balancing is always hard and it is understandable to fail at it BUT i know that slapping LoS was a lazy way to avoid balancing him (they said so themselves so i dont even need to guess) [They did not actually say lazy but they said it was the "easiest" way to balance him... when you dont say its "the best" way and you go for the "easiest way" you ofc are doing something lazy.]

 

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

48 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

No, they literally did not talk about the feedback AT ALL... see this is why i feel like you are trolling, you cant be that dumb... why they screwed up a patch is not adressing any feedback from players, it just adress why they screwed the patch, nothing more.

You... did you seriously stop watching a couple of minutes in? Steve explicitly reads the chat and mentions what people are saying and discusses feedback they've received, and they talk about how it was a question of range vs LOS for the nerf. How on earth did you miss that?

29 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

reponse was: we screwed up with the first patch and we aknowledge that LoS was working like crap. (and they made it work better) Cool what about the rest of the feedback?

Yeah, you clearly stopped watching halfway through.

26 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

I am still saying this... it is about his QoL... his performance is still more or less the same (like 100x repeating the same to you and you still dont get it?)

His performance in terms of what? In terms of KPM and functional range, his performance has been greatly reduced when not played optimally, as well it should. A 70m non-LOS AOE was insane. His damage remains the same, but the LOS changes meant he's not capable of hitting things through walls anymore from 70+ meters away. The fact of the matter is that this isn't a matter of QOL, it's a matter of performance, no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.

After all, if his performance is still more or less the same why do you have an issue with it?

33 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

No i dont know what values he should have to be balanced, to be completely honest i dont think they do either but they should have a much much better chance than anyone else figuring it out, balancing is always hard and it is understandable to fail at it BUT i know that slapping LoS was a lazy way to avoid balancing him (they said so themselves so i dont even need to guess) [They did not actually say lazy but they said it was the "easiest" way to balance him... when you dont say its "the best" way and you go for the "easiest way" you ofc are doing something lazy.]

Slapping LOS on it was a reasonable balancing measure, and much less drastic a change than gutting his range stats or changing how his abilities worked entirely. If they reduced his range too little, players could simply compensate with more range mods and the problem would remain unresolved. If they reduced it too much to prevent the previous scenario, his 4 would have been rendered impotent entirely without range maximization, thus heavily restricting his build variety. LOS means you don't have to invest as much into range, while still keeping his massive damage. LOS restriction means that they didn't have to fumble through finding the ideal balance point with his ability range, and removed the potential uproar from them nerfing his range into the dirt, or having to nerf his range repeatedly if they were too light-handed the first go around. Easiest and from their perspective the best solution of the available options, which is why they went with it.

Put plainly:

Options for Nerfing Dante's Range:
1- Nerf it too little, have to nerf it harder, prompting even more of a S#&amp;&#036;storm.
2- Nerf it too much, rendering it into a short-ranged nuke outside of maxed range builds, and genuinely making his nuke useless without range investment.
3- Add LOS restrictions, keeping the damage and the range, but resolving the OP nature of being able to hit through walls in a massive AOE.

But, here's a question. If they took the time to explain the process behind going with LOS in excruciating detail and why they wouldn't be doing a revert to the prior version, and explain that it was the best way as determined by their balancing department or whatever, would you accept the LOS changes then?

[Nero.DMC]

29 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

You... did you seriously stop watching a couple of minutes in? Steve explicitly reads the chat and mentions what people are saying and discusses feedback they've received, and they talk about how it was a question of range vs LOS for the nerf. How on earth did you miss that?

Yeah, you clearly stopped watching halfway through.?

No i did not, you are speaking about minute 7, i watched it live and i watched it AGAIN now, this still does not adress ANY of the feedback, She said: the aoe is too big BUT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TELLING THEM THAT THEY WOULD RATHER HAVE A SMALLER AREA OR NO BASE DAMAGE IN THE ABILITY RATHER THAN LoS, PEOPLE HAD ALSO BEEN CONSTANTLY REPEATING THAT LoS ON THAT ABILITY FELT AWFUL.  none of those things were adressed, what steve reads literally had nothing to do with this.

So no this is not answering to feedback, a lot of feedback has come AFTER this particular video (10 days ago) they tell us right there that they will be hearing more feedback, 0 responces, dante's Tragedy still feels awful, i hardly ever see Dante anymore, wich is insane... (maybe i just was unlucky tho, my experience might not correlate with the overall playtime of dante, BUT i saw him on every lobby pretty much and now i hardly ever see him, this is a pretty bad indication for a new frame)

38 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Yeah, you clearly stopped watching halfway through.

no i did not, i watched it live and now i watched it again, the problem is what you consider a response to feedback is not at all, if you answer unrelated stuff or simply ignore the points that people made you are not responding to feedback you are just presenting whatever you want to present.

39 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

His performance in terms of what? In terms of KPM and functional range, his performance has been greatly reduced when not played optimally, as well it should. A 70m non-LOS AOE was insane. His damage remains the same, but the LOS changes meant he's not capable of hitting things through walls anymore from 70+ meters away. The fact of the matter is that this isn't a matter of QOL, it's a matter of performance, no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.

After all, if his performance is still more or less the same why do you have an issue with it?

Its not that relevant, hitting unprimed stuff was worthless, as i said before, stuff i already put dark verse on will die anyway BUT stuff that has not dark verse on wont die from just tragedy (at least not on SP), the only difference is i will be there or far away, if my detonator does not work on the enemy i just marked but is now out of my LoS because i moved or he moved or whatever is just an annoyance, i already had LoS to him, i already marked him, the difference in tragedy vs just dark verse is Tragedy is much faster and missing loot based on a Detonator ability not detonating stuff is just removal of QoL.

His damage and KPM is variable, depends on your settings, tiles and luck, it used to be more reliable but now it wont since they slapped that awful mechanic into a detonator that never needed it.

45 minutes ago, Armadillidium_vulgare said:

Slapping LOS on it was a reasonable balancing measure, and much less drastic a change than gutting his range stats or changing how his abilities worked entirely. If they reduced his range too little, players could simply compensate with more range mods and the problem would remain unresolved. If they reduced it too much to prevent the previous scenario, his 4 would have been rendered impotent entirely without range maximization, thus heavily restricting his build variety. LOS means you don't have to invest as much into range, while still keeping his massive damage. LOS restriction means that they didn't have to fumble through finding the ideal balance point with his ability range, and removed the potential uproar from them nerfing his range into the dirt, or having to nerf his range repeatedly if they were too light-handed the first go around. Easiest and from their perspective the best solution of the available options, which is why they went with it.

Put plainly:

Options for Nerfing Dante's Range:
1- Nerf it too little, have to nerf it harder, prompting even more of a S#&amp;&#036;storm.
2- Nerf it too much, rendering it into a short-ranged nuke outside of maxed range builds, and genuinely making his nuke useless without range investment.
3- Add LOS restrictions, keeping the damage and the range, but resolving the OP nature of being able to hit through walls in a massive AOE.

adding LoS was the thing most people asked them not to do, we all knew LoS was going to be awful, you can check old forum post discussing it, most of us would have rather taken the chance with range, having inconsitent range is awful.

Its funny tho, you dont trust them to change the status but you trust them with a much more radical measure that is slapping LoS to it, range change is a measurable change, LoS is not measurable at all, how much it impacts the frame is variable... this should already tell you that is NOT a great way to balance something.

Tragedy damage is not good, you are just detonating enemies, the base damage from tragedy might as well be 0, i would not care at all.

you missed a few options:

4- they balance the range just right  and everyone is happy

5.- they leave it as it was, since the frame was never op to begin with

6.- they initially over or under shoot wathever they wanted to leave stuff  at and fix them step by step

Quote

But, here's a question. If they took the time to explain the process behind going with LOS in excruciating detail and why they wouldn't be doing a revert to the prior version, and explain that it was the best way as determined by their balancing department or whatever, would you accept the LOS changes then?

It depends, if it has a valid reason yes, BUT at any point where they say "balance" in that reason i inmidiatly would think they are full of BS, because LoS is not useful to balance at all... i have said this before and i dont know if you eventually got why LoS will never be a balance tool, it should just be a mechanical reason or a design reason, using LoS to balance means they did not balance at all because balance is all about standarizing and measuring, since LoS impact is random there is no way to measure its impact in anything... you dont add a dice to balance something...

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 horas, Nero.DMC dijo:

-Troll food-

Don't feed the trolls.

[tartcactus]

He who shall not be named is an attention starved troll.stop feeding him and he will go troll somewhere else. He just loves twisting what people say around to fit his repetitive arguments in favor of a terrible decision DE is doggedly holding onto. The irony is, if DE suddenly truly fixed what they have ruined, he would suddenly make the claim that he was for that all along. He would argue with a fence post. That is why I never read anything he says past the By line and I never put his name in lights. Mind over matter. I no longer mind because he who must not be named no longer matters. Just an opinion about trolls in general.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

No it did not, i played Dante from day 1, it was FINE everyone i spoke to tought it was fine, it had LoS but it was NOT the same LoS that tragedy got, it was FAR FAR FAR more lenient. this issue never existed you are trying to make it up DV has always been fine stop making S#&amp;&#036; up.

It did have the old LoS check system. A new system didnt get implemented until this patch for DV, at which point it got the improvements of current Tragedy. So if you were fine with that, you should be fine with what we have now across the board since both skills implement a system that is more reliant than any we've had before overall. So it is odd people didnt notice it on DV but all of a sudden did on Tragedy. The most odd part is people noted it on the improved Tragedy but never picked it up on DV for 2 whole weeks, even though improved Tragedy from the friday patch had practically no issues.

22 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

Sure something players an control while they are moving on a mision, this has to be the dumbest thing you have said so far. How enemies move beside defence misions or survival misions is completely random from a player perspective.

No really it isnt random. All missions can be controlled. Non endless missions that move from DZ to EZ will have spawns infront of you as you move on, endless missions allow for full control, either by relying on spawn logic from survival (disruption for instance) or a mix between it and defense (excav, interception).

22 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

we all know it had LoS but it had super lenient LoS as i have told you 500 times already, you seem to just ignore the things i have told you over and over, DV LoS was always fine, it was never annoying, nobody complained about it and you made it up to distract ppl from the real argument that has nothing to do with dark verse. the reason it was in the patch notes its because the improvement to LoS was a think they made for every skill with LoS, so Dark Verse got it, but -->NOBODY COMPLAINED ABOUT DV LoS<-- if you cannot grasp that simple thing and stop bringing up DV just stop talking to me, i am all in for talking and discussion but if i wanted empty answers of stuff i have adressed multiple times i could go talk to my 3y old nephew.

But it didnt, since it was the skill that even got blocked by Dante himself. This could be tested by using another primer in the sim, prime things up with it, use tragedy with blocked view due to Dante and still see the blocked primed targets die on detonation. Going back to priming with DV with the same enemies blocked by Dante would result in them not getting "detonated" and only take the base damage of the skill, while still having no slash on them after detonation. Meaning DV never landed but Tragedy did. Since if DV had landed they'd still have slash on them since Tragedy would have never landed if it was blocked by Dante, they'd also have large chunks of their life removed from the dot itself, but only had minimal health removed due to the base damage of Tragedy landing.

That no one complained about DV is my whole point, since it means people complain about things before testing, as I described here, with simple tests done that showed which skill was actually the bottleneck, even in a fully open setting. People attributed a bug to a skill that did not have that bug after the friday fix.

Tragedy itself was never blocked by Dante etc. outside of the first day it had LoS. DV was blocked since day 1.

22 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:

"Rivals weapons"? WOW, not even close, unless you have extremely bad weapons built, literally any decent weapon will outdps Dante pre nerf, Saryn explodes everything, she uses a weapon to DETONATE (remember that word) her DETONATION do not have LoS check, Dante's DETONATION comes from his 4, BUT his 4th has a LoS check wich is extremely bad for a DETONATION ability.

But it does rival weapons. I can maintain an easy 2.0+ kps with Rhino using Dark Verse spam. That is without burst damage available through Tragedy, since well... Rhino doesnt have that skill. And it is easier with Dante since he has access to Roar if you want to do the same as Rhino, but with the benefit of also having massive detonation burst to instantly wipe out large groups of enemies in 3 quick button taps. Saryn doesnt "DETONATE", she pops her spores and makes them spread, the enemy you spread them from dies to the weapon at that point, not the spores themselves and you need to attack the next enemy to speed up the killing and spread further beyond that, or wait for the spores to kill with their limited non-stackable-on-demand damage and spread them with miasma.

When Dante detonates he detonates, which means the mobs die there and then on demand. And this is while we conveniently forget his massive defense along with insane single target potential with weapons aswell. Because apparently Tragedy is the only thing Dante has in his whole kit.