Theory crafting: How do you think Warframe's elemental system creates it's universe's periodic table?

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ok so I was wrong, THIS is our disconnect

Yes, the aesthetics ARE dieselpunk. Both the visual aesthetics (mixing the grungy interwar and WW2 industrial flavor with elements of the fantastical) and the thematic aesthetics (a rise of fascism and an average citizen living through hardships of the great depression contrasted with pulp fiction and adventure narratives), that is what Dieselpunk is. That is what it means. Getting hung up on "oh this is anachronistic, it's three months more advanced than what G.I. Steve was assigned on the beaches of Normandy" is looking at EVERY punk genre completely wrong, to say nothing of dieselpunk specifically 

No the aestethics arent dieselpunk, the aestethics of WH40k is dark gothic with a splash of brutalism thrown in. You can see this on anything from the smaller vehicles all the way up to their capatial ships and planet killers when it comes to the human factions (including chaos). And when we look to the theme of the humans, it isnt about hardship, it is simply life of those born on IG homeworlds. In reality the imperium is based on a fusion between ancient greece and the "holy" roman empire. Where you are born into a "state" and either stay home to maintain it for generations or sign up for the state army to fight for the overall "kingdom", and the roman part comes in with how the inner workings of the imperium is set up regarding phobia, heresy, belief, doctrine etc.

And it isnt that the tech is a few months more advanced. It is decades upon decades and centuries. Diselpunk is based on WW1-WW2 or there around. WW1 was over 100 years ago by now and WW2 is soon 80 years in the past. We still do not have laser weapons (or plasmas or meltas) in our day and age, we dont have a widespread use (barely any) of weapons with caseless ammo, we do not have anything but basic grenades etc. In 40k the faction you claim to be dieselpunk has all of that in widespread use, things like both plasma and melta grenades aswell as this finicky thing called a Vortex grenade (caution: use at your own risk). Ontop of that they have real cybernetics, from small things like fingers and hands all the way to the replacement of most of a body. All this also uses computers, advanced computers for targetting etc. when attached to an eye for instance. In addition to those things the IG also makes use of what could best be described as Sentienls from WF, that also allows the owner to connect to it with a highly advanced shared interface. Energy shields is also another thing that the IG makes use of, not for the common trooper obviously, but still available all the same.

Heck, the (human) tech is so advanced in WH40k that it is seen as coming from the tech god Deus Machina/Omnissiah, whom apparently exsists as much as the gods of chaos and those of the other factions, like Gork, Mork, Khaine or the extremely old and powerful C'Tan (plural).

[Stafelund]

The combinations like blast, viral, gas etc seems like they're based on abstract matters or science for the most part. 

Corrosive (Electricity + Toxin) = Battery acids. Acids are considered toxic. 

Viral (Cold + Toxin) = being in the cold too much can infect you with common cold and in turn weaken your resistance against harmful substance

Radiation (Heat + Electricity) = nuclear power provides electricity and it's pretty hot. 

Gas and Blast was already explained perfectly. Magnetic I don't get. I don't see how cold plus electricity creates magnets. 

 

Edited April 25 by Stafelund

[TARINunit9]

@SneakyErvinLet me put it this way:

This is dieselpunk , but I get the impression you would disqualify it as being far too advanced for dieselpunk

[RLanzinger]

No enough "PUNK" @TARINunit9,

But 40K can be pretty much dieselpunk because the -punk is a form of revolt and mixed with bizarre machine full of pipes chamber and pistons (-diesel).

So on some worlds, I agree with Tarin that 40k can be Diesel Punk like the orks, the bipod mecha I already pictured or more like thoses who could fit in a 40K RPG book.

 

Dieselpunk Wars by Tomasz RygerPro :

 

Or Red Ridding Hood by Andrey LazarevPro, YamaS#&$a Shunya's One Voice or a Panzer Jagd Kampf flugzeug 85 (anti-grav but diesel and punk)

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

@SneakyErvinLet me put it this way:

This is dieselpunk , but I get the impression you would disqualify it as being far too advanced for dieselpunk

That is dieselpunk. You just fail to understand or simply lack knowledge regarding how much more advanced the technology is in WH40k. Again, it isnt about how things look, it is heavily influenced by how things work.

16 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

So on some worlds, I agree with Tarin that 40k can be Diesel Punk like the orks, the bipod mecha I already pictured or more like thoses who could fit in a 40K RPG book.

Only aestethically. Orks for instance would get crossed off since it isnt about humans, it is an alien race with its own tech levels, which for that matter is also far more advanced than what would be considered dieselpunk. They aswell use what would be considered advanced weaponry, computer technology along with very advanced cybernetics (in comparison to Dieselpunk). And the Sentinel for instances uses advanced onboard computer targetting systems and so on. Dieselpunk  is more or less completely void of computers. We should also not forget that handheld or weapon mounted radar/scanner equipment is common within the IG.

And if we look at aestethics, it isnt that "some WH40k is dieselpunk inspired", it would be more correct to say dieselpunk is inspired by 40k, or inspired by something that also inspired parts of 40k. WH40k has exsisted since the 80's while dieselpunk wasnt coined until post-2000. We should also be very clear that Dieselpunk for the most part also draws inspiration from Art Deco, while WH40k is Gothic.

When it comes to the "revolt" lore tied to -punk, it isnt clear cut in wh40k since what is the true revolt? The common man isnt revolting, not even in settings like Necromunda where you kinda would expect it. But that setting is really just gang versus gang, where the fighting is done for various different reasons and agendas depending on the gang in question. Spyre members are sent down from the spire in order to prove they are prepared to eventually enter the cut throat scene that is politics. Other gangs see the underhive as living with their god and so on and fight the others simply because they see them as desecrating their god. The closest to revolt comes in Inquisitor, but in that game setting it is more an anti-terrorist or crime angle, where you mostly root out actual evil cells of xenos or chaos that try to take over the planet. So it is more a game about covert war overall.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And if we look at aestethics, it isnt that "some WH40k is dieselpunk inspired", it would be more correct to say dieselpunk is inspired by 40k

You know what, let's just go with that. Dieselpunk is the Imperial Guard

[RLanzinger]

First Let's be clear about DieselPunk, as per Diesel Punk encyclo :

The term  “dieselpunk” was first used by Lewis Pollak in 2001 to describe his role-playing game Children of the Sun.

The Diesel Punk word start in 2001 but the style it refers to exist long before as the Diesel refer to a pre-existing style add with punk movement that mix, twist or express a form of revolt again the canon.

So Warhammer 40k as a mix of styles and Era depending on the artist choice or the local world setting from Primitive to Ultra alien can match Diesel Punk and its very nature of mixed Era, style and technologies make it PUNK. Spacepunk, steam punk or dieselpunk... few universe are more punk than 40k

==> The Art style is punk as there is a lot of punk-character (who reject the world as it is) may they be Chaos side or Human sides. 40K comics depict lot of them, non-conformist that rebel against order in their own way to save the day...

In the same Warframe also have a perfect DieselPunk incarnation that is Grinneeeeer... They may have computer, nuclear reactor or even void capable spaceship but still they are DieselPunk-aptible.

==> Khal-175 and Clem are part of the Punkiest ones around,

Children of the Sun RPG

Edited April 26 by RLanzinger
some mistake n' MORE COLOOOOR

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You know what, let's just go with that. Dieselpunk is the Imperial Guard

Well no. Dieselpunk and WH40k draw inspiration from certain parts in human history, both converge around WW1 and WW2, one more so than the other. Dieselpunk is inspired by both the tech and the aestethics while WH40k draws some inspiration from the aestethics. Like super huge tanks as envisioned by the crazy man in the funny mustache. But the tech in those massive tanks of 40k is just so much more advanced. You are oversimplifying the whole Imperial Guard things. Since IG draws inspiration from all of human history based on which regiment they belong to, just as the Space Marines draw inspiration from all of human history. I mean, there are over 100 different types of IG Regiments of varying cultural backgrounds. All using equipment designed by the Adeptus Mechanicus (Not Imperial Guard), which exsists of machine-men of varying degrees, some more machine than man and others the opposite. Diesel era limits are long long long long gone.

20 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

So Warhammer 40k as a mix of styles and Era depending on the artist choice or the local world setting from Primitive to Ultra alien can match Diesel Punk and its very nature of mixed Era, style and technologies make it PUNK. Spacepunk, steam punk or dieselpunk... few universe are more punk than 40k

WH40k just doesnt have anything that is primitive in that sense. The worlds within the Imperium are for instance always as advanced as the Imperium while leaving room for their special expertise tied to their home world culture. By claiming it can match Diesel (or any other defining style) throws out the rules that makes the genre what it is. Since the defining part is that era (steam, diesel, cyber etc.) and the technology expected from it and a few centuries ahead. Especially when you look at things that draw inspiration from the past and where we have further defining cut offs after that. 

This results in further seperation when the setting is based on humanity, since you have passed those other real milestones aswell and likely some theoretical future advancement aswell. So unless there is a storyline that sets up the worldbuilding in a way where humanity suddenly advances differently from that point or a future one it wont be that type of era setting. 40k for instance doesnt have that, it is literally 38000-ish years further ahead in time with massive technological steps taken since the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50, and even 60s. There is no lore that describes a setback either in human history. However there has been a stall in human tech advancements over the last few thousand years in 40k. Meaning many things used are Horus Heresy tech levels. The Imperium hates A.I for instance, so instead of A.I it takes the shape of the living being transfered into tech. While at the same time the kin of humanity (the squat or well formerly known as that) have no problem making use of advanced A.I to run their societies etc.

And regarding punk. Well no, since the idea of punk in cyberpunk and any other punk refers to the "working" people of society and their role and struggles. In 40k we have none of that really. Even the early stories regarding Rogue Traders centers around nobility, with no intent at all about any uprising or punking towards something. All they want is to pay off alien connections and the imperium so they can get their hands on artifacts and riches really. Most other stories depict soldier stories, all out war settings or the investigations made by an inquisitor or arbites uncovering xeno or chaos incursions. The punk-level just isnt there. It is just on a far larger scale which more resembles all out war between nations. Where those "uprising" elements in society are really just insurgents or military trying to fight an occupant. I mean, we arent even on "punk" levels that could be connected to Star Wars, where you have actual rebels uniting to take out one overarching oppressive ruler, and not several different "nations" fighting over dominion.

Calling 40k punk is like saying LotR is whateverpunk really.

In the grim darkness of the future there is only war. I think that sums up what WH40k is overall.

[helioth137]

On 2024-04-21 at 8:50 PM, Raarsi said:

That's because they're not elements; they're energy types.

not to be a smart ass, because i'm not one, and sorry for rambling off the original thread topic, also
totally admit this is all speculation (except for the quotes), & 
cobbling together what seems logical to me, but to offer an idea on the 4 fundamental forces of physics,
and how they perhaps do relate to the classical ancient 4 elements; modern physics is to said boil down to these 4 forces 
the nuclear strong and
weak forces,
as well as the Electromagnetic and 
Gravitational forces 
(no clue how quantum stuff factors into this, anyone actually know?) 

elements could be both energy types, and gross forces of nature. 
They Could correspond to: Fire, Water, Air, and Earth (or pick your order...)
while not quite being 100% congruent with Warframe's "elements" they're kind of close enough.

the same ancient 4 (5 including aether, the 5th element  (a good film starring bruce willis by the way :P))
elements are present in the "dethroned" / "disproven" /  classical system of Alchemy,
(interesting article on that here: alchemy much more than male driven pseudoscience ) and in quite a bit of ancient philosophy, such as Aristotle's. 

Interestingly enough, intellectual heavy-weights such as Bertrand Russel who wrote Principia Mathematica and his mentor Alfred North Whitehead,
had a lot to say about ancient philosophy, especially greek, just to emphasize who this man was... B-R's work was categorized as
"a milestone in [all of] philosophy which sought to reduce all of mathematics to logic " (as opposed to Axioms, such as "Zero is a number"), 
they essentially SAID: All of Modern Western Philosophy, can be compared to mere footnotes written for Plato's [and Aristotle's] works.

We are quick to imagine that we're so much "wiser" than "cavemen", and "barbarians",
yet some of those noble souls laid foundations without which our modern world would be entirely un-imaginable. 
well summed up with "the problem with the world seems to be that fools are so @#&$ sure of themselves, while wiser men so full of doubts". 

Quote

“The safest general characterization of the European philosophical
tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato. I do not
mean the systematic scheme of thought which scholars have doubtfully extracted
from his writings. I allude to the wealth of general ideas scattered through them

more here on the whole 4 element thing: https://philosophy-models.blog/2019/01/31/aristotles-four-elements/  quite an
interesting diagram on how the 4 elements create the 4 states of matter and weather;
(plasma - gas - liquid - solid / hot - dry - wet - cold)
I think intuitively, a cool way to visualize this is origami; you can keep folding it so you go from a 4 to an 8 to a 16 folded shape

/ramble over

I said all that mainly to say this:
one of the best quotes I've ever come across: 
"True Friendships are like Chemical Reactions, when two substances meet, 
there is a reaction and both are transformed," by Carl Jung, a more recent figure who, again, wrote quite a bit about Alchemy too. 

Isn't it nice we have the internet, this game, this forum, and each other to discuss things with ? 
I'm actually genuinely so grateful for the time I've spent playing warframe and the people I've "met"/ corresponded with. 

I also really like how Warframe introduces a spin on serious topics in a playful universe, such as
the "grey goo" nano-bot apocalyptic scenario, the 28 days later type zombie "infested" plague of our creation,
psychich terror in the form of harrow's quest, and now, alchemy, exploring a mad wizard's laboratories,
and the art of transformation... Thank god Alchemy is nothing but a game mode in Warframe, and all we have to do is
throw Amphors into the crucible to one day create the Universal Panacea, and it stays firmly in place in that entirely fictitious world. 

Deeper on the topic though... the number 4 is... (from my understanding)
in many ancient trains of thought, a number of completion and wholeness
symbolized well by the tetractys (4+3+2+1 = 10 = all), a symbol which represents the universe;
1. the one ("God"; Generator, Operator, Destroyer) 
2. subdivides into male and female,  
3. which give birth to the three aspects of life, 
(past, present, future / apathy, wisdom, rage / Mother, Father, Child) 
4.which then order and regulate physical existence; the elements. 

or, according to Wikipedia, it's a more clean cut philosophical, mathematical & neutral thing, not so easy for humans to relate to, 

 

Quote

The first four numbers symbolize the musica universalis and the Cosmos as:

1. Monad – Unity
2. Dyad – Power – Limit/Unlimited (peras/apeiron)
3. Triad – Harmony
4. Tetrad – Kosmos^[4]

The Pythagorean oath also mentioned the Tetractys:

By that pure, holy, four lettered name on high,

nature's eternal fountain and supply,

the parent of all souls that living be,

by him, with faith find oath, I swear to thee.

 

I tried to read & understand this book a while back called 137: jung, pauli and the pursuit a scientific obsession / deciphering the cosmic number, which
was a record of the friendship between and a long conversation between Carl Jung and the Nobel winning Physicist Wolfgang Pauli, 
He won the prize for the "exclusion principle", no idea what that is...
More humorously, he's known for a sort of "sod's law" / "murphy's law"
that electronic devices would break when he was around, when it happens, physicists allegedly sometimes say "Pauli Effect!". 

I couldn't actually make that much sense of the scientific parts at the time, or rather, i forgot a lot of it because...
"use it or lose it"... should re-read it i guess. But it covered a lot of topics, and the author's strong
suite was maths + physics... which was mostly gobbledygook to me,
but i loved the mythological references, dreams, and general insights into human nature. 

Richard Feynman, popular physics author, said about 137
"it's the most mysterious number in all of physics, you could say god himself wrote it" 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman (also a winner of the Nobel prize (: ) 

The basic gist of the book (to me) seemed to be that there's a mystical process guiding even
scientists to make their discoveries, which comes to them in dreams and archetypal language,
And that same universal... drive... can be tracked in many natural processes and boiled down to the number 137

Fun fact: 137.5° is an angle that has a lot to do with Fibonacci, but not the fish :P 

Carl Jung recorded something like 400 of W.Pauli's dreams, the most iconic one being of the flying raven
with the world clock on its back and 4 hooded figures in the 4 divisions thereof. 
...holy S#&$ the ramble continued a long time xD 

sharing something slightly personal

Spoiler

i have absolutely no clue about chemistry and physics (beyond pop articles, documentaries and so on), as i left school early to study fine art, 
which then kind of back-fired, but sent me on a very interesting soul searching mission about the meaning of life and my place in it...
dipping into various fields like concept art, philosophy, mysticism, poetry and so on along the way, i've come around full circle...

Funnily enough, after becoming a father, then yoga teacher, i became a gamer again, as I was at 16, or even 7 for that matter, as
after my mother died i fell into a deep pit, and Warframe was one of the few places i turned to
to drown my sorrows (or rather, the pain of having to think about losing someone so dear and close, was
kept at bay, by keeping my mind busy (sorry for speaking about personal matters, anyone who's easily offended)). 

Some really fun and interesting replies in this thread, kudos to you, especially @Prof-Dantefor starting it, nice one. 

Don't quite have the required spare brain power & time to offer a truly novel post, but I will return to it in a few days, have something in the back of my mind 
regarding nuclear fission, fractality and the origin or at least, mechanisms which transform and sustain the universe 

heading in this direction here: https://www.space.com/nuclear-fission-neutron-stars-heavy-elements-gold 

The basic summation of the idea is that through increasing degrees of fractal compression or expansion/ (unfitting word, but... zooming in), 
all the elements are created, Spiralling out of time & space as naturally as anything in the universe (: 
it's just speculation, but it makes sense to me. 
 

Edited April 27 by helioth137

[RLanzinger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

...
Diesel era limits are long long long long gone.
...

WH40k just doesnt have anything that is primitive in that sense.
...
There is no lore that describes a setback either in human history.!
...
I mean, we arent even on "punk" levels that could be connected to Star Wars, where you have actual rebels uniting to take out one overarching oppressive ruler, and not several different "nations" fighting over dominion.

Calling 40k punk is like saying LotR is whateverpunk really.

In the grim darkness of the future there is only war. I think that sums up what WH40k is overall.

MuaAHAHAHAH, I've play Warhammer and 40k and hold most of the RPG books, having primitive world or playing primitive are very common in Imperium :

40K lore :
-A Feral or φλ-class World is a classification given to the most primitive human worlds of the Imperium. The populations of feral worlds have long ago regressed to primal savagery, often over very long periods of isolation. The technological level of these worlds remains pre-black powder or even Stone Age.
-A μ-class, feudal world or medieval world is a classification of world existing in a technologically medieval state. The most advanced such worlds possess black powder weaponry.

... and this goes in diversity like the fact that in DeathWatch Comics, Rurik Warson of the Wolf Guard have a flashback of his primitive feral world, where he fought giant wolf with runic axe. Those savage world are usefull to bread and select Space Marines...

 

Dear @SneakyErvin, You are mainly in the classic caricatural side of 40K players, similar to Rokugan players (another US games).

As a french, I like to tease fan Like @TARINunit9 like with diesel/Vin-Diesel but I found ridiculous your hard head way to tell us HOW warhammer should work ! Who are you to render void the whole description of the universe and the whole setting of all RPG books.

Open your mind : Being born in savage or diesel era world des not mean they don't have communication with the rest of the Imperium, just that Space Marines House/chapters  living hundreds of years can wait for a world to develop itself until modern era. It's a spark for the like who existed for ten thousand of years like Roboute Guilliman.

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But the tech in those massive tanks of 40k is just so much more advanced. You are oversimplifying the whole Imperial Guard things.

Honestly I find 40k is one of the LESS advanced Dieselpunk settings, definitely in the 42nd millennium era when the average Leman Russ tank is literally a tractor with a smoothbore cannon on the top. Which is why I feel it's a little weird that you keep disqualifying 40k for being "too advanced"

------

Bringing this back to Warframe...

On 2024-04-21 at 11:01 AM, Prof-Dante said:

 

Original elements: based on Fibonacci, the original elements make up the universe, and let's be honest here, these elements (which are similar to the classic water earth fire and air) are basically how energy interacts with matter.

• Heat: Excitation of kinetic energy causes matter to heat up.
• Cold: Low Kinetic energy causes matter to cooldown and freeze.
• Electricity: The transferal of energy from one medium to another.
• Toxin (my made up assumption): A form of kinetic energy that causes the decay and deterioration of matter.

So knowing that, when these interactions combine with each other, they create additional elements...but none of them explain how that can make Rubedo, Oxium, nanospores, titanium or any other material that exists within the Warframe universe...

I tried to figure it out myself, and here what I think:

Secondary Elements:

• Gas: Any gas on the periodic table (hydrogen oxygen etc)
• Viral: Any Organic elements (Hydrogen, Carbon, phosphorus) 
• Corrosive: Any liquid element (bromine, mercury, Caesium)
• Magnetic: Any metals (iron, copper etc)
• Blast: Idk, maybe reactive elements? or ones with the most reactivity?
• Radiation: Any Radioactive material (Uranium, Plutonium)

 

After a few days of thinking about it, I'm warming up to this idea. The primary elements in Warframe seem to be four "expressions" of energy, and when they combine they cause spontaneous generation of more complicated matter

Though I think "Viral" would probably be like... prions or something, not something as simple as Carbon. And Gas is probably something more complicated than Hydrogen

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-27 at 7:06 PM, RLanzinger said:

MuaAHAHAHAH, I've play Warhammer and 40k and hold most of the RPG books, having primitive world or playing primitive are very common in Imperium :

40K lore :
-A Feral or φλ-class World is a classification given to the most primitive human worlds of the Imperium. The populations of feral worlds have long ago regressed to primal savagery, often over very long periods of isolation. The technological level of these worlds remains pre-black powder or even Stone Age.
-A μ-class, feudal world or medieval world is a classification of world existing in a technologically medieval state. The most advanced such worlds possess black powder weaponry.

... and this goes in diversity like the fact that in DeathWatch Comics, Rurik Warson of the Wolf Guard have a flashback of his primitive feral world, where he fought giant wolf with runic axe. Those savage world are usefull to bread and select Space Marines...

 

Dear @SneakyErvin, You are mainly in the classic caricatural side of 40K players, similar to Rokugan players (another US games).

As a french, I like to tease fan Like @TARINunit9 like with diesel/Vin-Diesel but I found ridiculous your hard head way to tell us HOW warhammer should work ! Who are you to render void the whole description of the universe and the whole setting of all RPG books.

Open your mind : Being born in savage or diesel era world des not mean they don't have communication with the rest of the Imperium, just that Space Marines House/chapters  living hundreds of years can wait for a world to develop itself until modern era. It's a spark for the like who existed for ten thousand of years like Roboute Guilliman.

We are are talking about the imperium and the IG here. I'm fully aware of the different worlds, I even mentioned it to Tarin earlier regarding IG regiments. Within the imperium the tech levels are simply far off into the future to classify anything used there are steam/diesel/cyber or anything similar when it comes to IG.

Let me put it this way. WH40k is like Star Trek, it doesnt change into another genre because the technological level of a planet that is visited is low. It is at that point just showing regular evolution of a society. These parts are also not in focus of the overarching story, these parts will also evolve within that story. However when you have a story defined by a specific advancement level it tends to stay there and keep defining that story. So no, WH40k does not have those different punk settings, since it is just regular evolution of a planet they describe.

IG for instance could have been dieselpunk if it was seperate from the imperium and had its own story and tech and that tech came with diesel era limitations. That isnt how IG works though, since they are part of the imperium of man and use mechanicus level equipment. All homeworlds are either advancing naturally or they get boosted through the imperium when their specific expertise is seen as in need. And when that need rises the world gets assimilated into the imperium and the people given equipment so their expertise can be utilized together with it and imperial doctrines in training. And if the tech level of a homeworld is high enough it will likely also recieve the license to build imperial equipment and at times also modify it to their special needs.

On 2024-04-27 at 10:14 PM, TARINunit9 said:

Honestly I find 40k is one of the LESS advanced Dieselpunk settings, definitely in the 42nd millennium era when the average Leman Russ tank is literally a tractor with a smoothbore cannon on the top. Which is why I feel it's a little weird that you keep disqualifying 40k for being "too advanced"

That is just one of many and depends on the model of the Russ and what the purpose is for it, aswell as which regiment (or even chapter) will use it. It can also carry several energy/fusion based weapons in addition to whatever main cannon it uses. The main cannon can be designed for close quarter fights and all the way up to long range artillery use and in the case of some they can be fully designed as anti-infantery vehicles or a mix. The whole point that there is wide access to energy weapons for the whole faction is why it is too advanced to begin with. Or you dont think weapons housing a fusion core would be considered advanced technology well beyond what we have today even? And we arent even talking vehicle mounted fusion based weapons, there are handheld versions aswell the size of a large pistol.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The whole point that there is wide access to energy weapons for the whole faction is why it is too advanced to begin with. Or you dont think weapons housing a fusion core would be considered advanced technology well beyond what we have today even?

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I think your personal distaste for energy weapons is clouding your judgement

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-04-29 at 7:50 PM, TARINunit9 said:

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I think your personal distaste for energy weapons is clouding your judgement

I dont know why you assume I have a distaste for energy weapons. I'm simply saying energy weapons are not a Diesel era thing, meaning 40k is well beyond a Diesel era theme. Since the technological peak of the setting isnt tied to what was achievable prior to, during and shortly after the world wars period, or what was fantasized at the time.

Fusion and energy cell weaponry, caseless ammunition, energy melee weaponry, cybernetics, men that are practically turned A.I but not being actual A.I, Warp space travel made possible due to something similar, weapons on the scale that can destroy planets, advanced space travel overall and many other things are just far beyond what you try to label even just the IG as.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont know why you assume I have a distaste for energy weapons.

Because of your very next sentence:

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm simply saying energy weapons are not a Diesel era thing, meaning 40k is well beyond a Diesel era theme

Dieselpunk means (among other things) "evoking a retrofuturistic setting with the trappings of the 1920s through 1950s." It does NOT mean "actually taking place in the 1920s and 1950s, with the tech that was available in real life." Energy weapons and space travel are absolutely fair game for any and all dieselpunk settings. The Imperial Guard are a dieselpunk army in a gothic horror setting. Full stop

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Because of your very next sentence:

Dieselpunk means (among other things) "evoking a retrofuturistic setting with the trappings of the 1920s through 1950s." It does NOT mean "actually taking place in the 1920s and 1950s, with the tech that was available in real life." Energy weapons and space travel are absolutely fair game for any and all dieselpunk settings. The Imperial Guard are a dieselpunk army in a gothic horror setting. Full stop

No that is me saying that the tech in WH40k is far into the future. It is one thing to have certain types of energy weapons, it is another to have those that are several centuries and millennias ahead of the tech that defines another setting/genre (and even our own time). Space travel at the level it is available in WH40k is also not on a level expected in a diesel setting. Space travel for instance in a Dieselpunk setting is about as advanced as the space age, you are still mostly bound to Earth since space is still the great unknown and something feared. It also takes time to get anywhere. In WH40k it takes place across several systems with FTL travel widely used by all of the Imperium including what you wanna call dieselpunk IG. They are also at a point where they've explored the whole Milky Way galaxy.

Plus no one has said it needs to take place in that era time. The tech however aswell as the aestethics that define the genre are based on and limited by the advancements of the time (end of WW1 up into a bit of the cold war), including some experimental/theoretical science we actually never saw. But going from that to what you have in WH40k is a massive leap.

It's as if you have no concept of varying degrees of technological levels for any single thing. Just because Dieselpunk may have space travel it doesnt mean WH40k is Dieselpunk because it also has space travel, since the two are of widely different advancements. Same with energy weapons, where Dieselpunk may have some but 40k has it widespread and far far more advanced. Dieselpunk era might dream of atomic warfare slightly more widespread, in 40k atomic warfare comes in the size of a pistol to that of a cannon that can split a planet in half or turn it into small pebbles floating in space. Same as mentioned with computers, Dieselpunk may have what they dreamt of during the diesel era, while 40k has things similar to a smartphone, or a direct interface into your brain, or someone turned into a computer in order to live on and keep serving in the shape of a walking tomb of death and destruction or as a servant to their master. Not to mention things like the Rosarius which is a personal powerful force field the size of a necklace. Or all the insanely advanced medical technologies within 40k.

You need to actually read and understand 40k, not just look at some pictures.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's as if you have no concept of varying degrees of technological levels for any single thing

Actually that's what I'm accusing YOU of

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Actually that's what I'm accusing YOU of

Which makes no sense when you imply everything is the same even when something is far more advanced. Like, why even use any labels for anything at that point?

It's also quite funny that you have dodged a question I asked you early on. What is your WH40k experience rooted in? Codex books and lore from other rule books since Rogue Trader? Gormamorka, Inquisitor or Necromunda? An unhealthy obsession with Citadel Journal and White Dwarf over waaaay too many years? Video games? Gaming and lore clubs/circles? Various WH40k novels from GW?

You feel like some of those guys one might run into on occassion that are "massive" Space Wolves "fans" and you ask them why. And they go "cos the Wolves believe in Odin" and you go like "WTF are you smoking? " since they've completely missed what the Allfather is refering to when it comes to the SW.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What is your WH40k experience rooted in? Codex books and lore from other rule books since Rogue Trader? Gormamorka, Inquisitor or Necromunda? An unhealthy obsession with Citadel Journal and White Dwarf over waaaay too many years? Video games? Gaming and lore clubs/circles? Various WH40k novels from GW?

All of the above. I've been playing 40k for almost exactly 20 years now

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which makes no sense when you imply everything is the same even when something is far more advanced. Like, why even use any labels for anything at that point?

I'm not sure you even understand what my argument is, if you're asking this

Take a dieselpunk army. Loosen your personal definition juuuuust enough so the standard infantry rifle is allowed to shoot lasers, and make the government buildings in the civilian sector use gothic architecture side by side with the military buildings which are still brutalist. Now have this dieselpunk army colonize space. That's the Imperial Guard. That's what I'm saying.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

All of the above. I've been playing 40k for almost exactly 20 years now

Yeah that would certainly not be "All of the above" then, since you are missing several editions of lore at that point.

 

14 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'm not sure you even understand what my argument is, if you're asking this

Take a dieselpunk army. Loosen your personal definition juuuuust enough so the standard infantry rifle is allowed to shoot lasers, and make the government buildings in the civilian sector use gothic architecture side by side with the military buildings which are still brutalist. Now have this dieselpunk army colonize space. That's the Imperial Guard. That's what I'm saying.

Which would make it not Dieselpunk, since you just threw both the technological level and the architectural theme out the window. Also "Now have this dieselpunk army colonize space" is not how things panned out in 40k. At one point, long long long long long ago, as in several tens of thousands of years long ago, the human race were at a "disel" era level in 40k. That era is long gone at the point where the imperium of man is founded and eventually the imperial guard implemented/created. During the time the Horus Heresy and WH40k takes place mankind is far beyond the diesel era limitations.

You seem to have this odd idea that the Imperial Guard = the Imperium. IG are a small part of the imperium, it also doesnt design/make the equipment it uses, which is the doings of the mechanicus. They come up with, design and create everything for the imperium of man pretty much and have their own "agents" within the different parts of the imperium. Be it in the shape of tech priests or tech marines and so on. The Imperial Guard are at a techlevel based on whatever world/regiment they belong to, from bronze age to super high tech. They all then end up using advanced equipment as they get assimilated into the imperium.

So saying IG is dieselpunk, means you dont understand how the imperium or IG works at all. IG wouldnt even clock in as raypunk, since it isnt their specific tech level but the imperiums as a whole. And lasguns arent powerful even, they are thrown to the IG because they are easy to manufacture for the imperium and the IG are fodders. The true power in weapons still rest with bullet based weaponry and fusion, along with experimental devices like vortex grenades that practically create ephemeral black holes.

[TARINunit9]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which would make it not Dieselpunk,

I think your definition of Dieselpunk is just flat-out wrong.

The Imperium is many flavors, and the Imperial Guard specifically are Dieselpunk. That previous sentence is not a contradiction. I am done "debating" this.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2024-05-04 at 10:15 AM, TARINunit9 said:

I think your definition of Dieselpunk is just flat-out wrong.

The Imperium is many flavors, and the Imperial Guard specifically are Dieselpunk. That previous sentence is not a contradiction. I am done "debating" this.

No, since Dieselpunk is a subgenre that specifically uses Art Deco for instance along with technology of a certain human era. Just as Steampunk is a subgenre that uses Victorian inpired aestethics and tech based around the era when steam power was a big thing. With some sci-fi thrown in regarding what could be achieved if diesel or steam were the peak advancements.

And non lol. Imperial Guard are not specifically Dieselpunk. The Imperial Guard are of a technological level of the Imperium, that is it. Different world are of different human advancement levels, but those worlds are not automatically Imperial Guard, they are simply human worlds that may get intregrated into the Imperium and end up as Imperial Guard regiments. So since IG is not a singular thing, IG is not Dieselpunk, since the Imperium of man is not Dieselpunk and the Imperium of man sets the tech level of the regiments within the IG no matter where they come from.

But I dont think you'll comprehend this, since you did afterall use Cadia as a synonym for Imperial Guard, when Cadia is just one out of hundreds of regiments of IG, all provided with gear from the Imperium and not created from some personal technological state.