(XBOX)TheMadCash Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 Not even trying to be funny but im updating an old build I had on her for awhile. She literally has nothing going on for her in her kit. Her abilities dont even kill after stripping armor completely at all. Then her 4th applies ONE heat proc. I think the heat procs should steadily climb for as long as the ability is up. Or give her a special ui that shows how many Heat procs she can proc the longer she continues to burn from her 2. Ember could be goated for a frame thats all about heat but her abilities are very underwhelming. It’s been almost 2 or 3 YEARS since I’ve seen an Ember out in the wild. Pls have Pablo give her another look. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: Then her 4th applies ONE heat proc. Two. Every normal person runs Archon Vitality on her (can be unranked). 1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: It’s been almost 2 or 3 YEARS since I’ve seen an Ember out in the wild. I have seen two just today. Edited June 1 by Zakkhar 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)TheMadCash Posted June 1 Author Share Posted June 1 9 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: Two. Every normal person runs Archon Vitality on her (can be unranked). I have seen two just today. Archon Vitality doesnt saves her abilities not one bit. So it’s really not beneficial on Ember. Seems like a no brained of a mod since Ember is fire but it literally makes no difference on her. Even with 300% power strength plus with Archon Vitality. Her abilities still barely kill. Ember should be able to spread & upkeep heat procs. Not a measly 2 at a time. I can see her potential but she isnt there yet to warrant a heirloom just yet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 (edited) 3 hours ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: Even with 300% power strength plus with Archon Vitality. Her abilities still barely kill. Ember should be able to spread & upkeep heat procs. Not a measly 2 at a time. I can see her potential but she isnt there yet to warrant a heirloom just yet Do you use Heat inherit/Fireball Frenzy and Contagious Bond? I have also seen Gas Ember, but I have no idea how to build it. Guess it does something with Sickening Pulse. PS: Running high STR on Ember is pointless due to her passive, unless you have no idea how to use her passive. She has similar problem to Gyre - needs good enemy density to shine. Edited June 1 by Zakkhar 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakaku Posted June 1 Share Posted June 1 5 hours ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: Her abilities dont even kill after stripping armor completely at all. Maybe it's just me, but I use weapons to take care of the killing... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)TheMadCash Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 3 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Do you use Heat inherit/Fireball Frenzy and Contagious Bond? I have also seen Gas Ember, but I have no idea how to build it. Guess it does something with Sickening Pulse. PS: Running high STR on Ember is pointless due to her passive, unless you have no idea how to use her passive. She has similar problem to Gyre - needs good enemy density to shine. Her passive isn’t even that great to even say running high strength is pointless. If anything, her passive is pointless due to the fact none of her abilities upkeep heat procs. Then there is no real reason to even have strength at all because none of her abilities are damaging. She could be the queen of major heat procs but she is not. 3 hours ago, Pakaku said: Maybe it's just me, but I use weapons to take care of the killing... That’s fine but that dont really add to the conversation. I just want Ember to be able to spread mad heat procs. Not a measly 1-4 at a time 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 41 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: Her passive isn’t even that great to even say running high strength is pointless. Anything above 100% is kind of a waste, above 200% is a total waste. 41 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: If anything, her passive is pointless due to the fact none of her abilities upkeep heat procs. 1, 3 and 4 dont upkeep Heat procs? Do you even understand how Heat Status works? From wiki: Repeated application of Heat procs do not stack tick damage in the same way other damage over time (DoT) status effects like Toxin, Electricity, or Slash do. Instead, a Heat proc both adds a stack and refreshes the duration of all currently active heat stacks on the target. This allows for ramping up Heat tick damage indefinitely (scaling up linearly) as long as heat status is kept refreshed within the 6 second effect duration (modified by Status Duration). Additionally, all Heat status stacks are automatically consolidated into one tick of damage per second, with new heat procs refreshing and further adding to this tick damage. You can increase the duration of status by 90-110% if you use the Status Duration mod on your Heat Inherit Primer. 41 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: Then there is no real reason to even have strength at all because none of her abilities are damaging You contradict yourself very well. There is a point in having certain breakpoints in order to armor strip with 3 efficiently. Also even with tiny damage increases it all adds up in the end. 4 does pretty big damage actually for a non-exalted ultimate. Especially to stripped enemies. 41 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: She could be the queen of major heat procs but she is not. She is. For everyone, who knows how to play her. 41 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: I just want Ember to be able to spread mad heat procs. Not a measly 1-4 at a time Learn to play her then. You can spread up to 100 heat stacks. I already gave you all the tools. Edited June 2 by Zakkhar 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrary Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 9 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: There is a point in having certain breakpoints in order to armor strip with 3 efficiently. +Ability Strength doesn't affect the armor reduction on Fire Blast. You can make it worse with -Ability Strength for sure, but anything above base Strength isn't helping Fire Blast beyond increasing the piddling damage it does. Ember just has mid damage output without having to jump through stupid hoops. Kinda baffling that they haven't given her a stronger scaling mechanic for her damage. Something in the vein of what Thermal Sunder has would go a long way. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: +Ability Strength doesn't affect the armor reduction on Fire Blast. You can make it worse with -Ability Strength for sure, but anything above base Strength isn't helping Fire Blast beyond increasing the piddling damage it does. 34 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: Anything above 100% is kind of a waste, above 200% is a total waste. He had 300%. 16 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: Something in the vein of what Thermal Sunder has would go a long way. Subsumable, although totally not worth it on Ember. Edited June 2 by Zakkhar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: Ember just has mid damage output without having to jump through stupid hoops. Kinda baffling that they haven't given her a stronger scaling mechanic for her damage. She hass very strong damage scaling mechanics if one stops insulting hoops and decides to jump. I like frames that require thought and understanding of the mechanics. Some people prefer the ones where they randomly press buttons in any order and everything dies. It is ok, there are frames like that. Just play them. Problem occurs when they try to apply same logic to the ones that do require something more than random button presses in order to shine and complain. Edited June 2 by Zakkhar 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrary Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 5 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: Subsumable, although totally not worth it on Ember. The point would be for her abilities to have an innate form of strong scaling like what Thermal Sunder has, not to put it on her. Though even in its nerfed state, it's stronger than than what Ember's damage output is doing. 4 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: She hass very strong damage scaling mechanics if one stops insulting hoops and decides to jump. The hoops you mention don't even mesh well together beyond Ember having a strong source of +Heat damage from Fireball Frenzy. Proc Heat from your abilities first? Your weapons have diminished effect on scaling them. Need to prime enemies? Sounds like your output was mid and you need to play catchup. Instead of weapon support being just an enhancement, it becomes a requirement. Contagious Bond in particular sticks out as not playing nice. Companion procs Heat first? All your added heat procs are basically pointless beyond adding damage to kill that single enemy, which your weapon is gonna do better, so what was Ember really doing here. You proc Heat first? Contagious Bond won't trigger off of the Heat proc kill since it belongs to you, not the Sentinel now. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: Proc Heat from your abilities first? You clearly do not understand Heat Inherit. 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: Need to prime enemies? Sounds like your output was mid and you need to play catchup. Very convaluted way of insulting someone without presenting any arguments. 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: Instead of weapon support being just an enhancement, it becomes a requirement. Weapon support IS an enhancement, that can multiple your damage by 8-10. Whether you decide to use it, is entirely up to you. If aiming in the enemy general direction and pressing lmouse before you start your rotation is a hoop too high for you, just dont. But stop complaining. 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: Contagious Bond in particular sticks out as not playing nice. Companion procs Heat first? All your added heat procs are basically pointless beyond adding damage to kill that single enemy, which your weapon is gonna do better, so what was Ember really doing here. You proc Heat first? Contagious Bond won't trigger off of the Heat proc kill since it belongs to you, not the Sentinel now. Kindly please read the describtion of the mod. Where does it say it needs to be a kill with (Heat) Dot status? It just needs to be companion's last hit. Edited June 2 by Zakkhar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ErydisTheLucario Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 8 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Do you use Heat inherit/Fireball Frenzy and Contagious Bond? I have also seen Gas Ember, but I have no idea how to build it. Guess it does something with Sickening Pulse. PS: Running high STR on Ember is pointless due to her passive, unless you have no idea how to use her passive. She has similar problem to Gyre - needs good enemy density to shine. Holy crap I didn't know more strength actively hurt her. Any way I could see your build? I like Ember, and I wanna see what all I can do to make her better. If more strength isn't the way to go, I'd love to see what all you use to make her work so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexaldem Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 14 hours ago, (XBOX)TheMadCash said: Not even trying to be funny but im updating an old build I had on her for awhile. She literally has nothing going on for her in her kit. Her abilities dont even kill after stripping armor completely at all. Then her 4th applies ONE heat proc. I think the heat procs should steadily climb for as long as the ability is up. Or give her a special ui that shows how many Heat procs she can proc the longer she continues to burn from her 2. Ember could be goated for a frame thats all about heat but her abilities are very underwhelming. It’s been almost 2 or 3 YEARS since I’ve seen an Ember out in the wild. Pls have Pablo give her another look. I haven't played Ember in years, so I would have to mess around with her for myself before I really say anything on whether she needs a rework or not, but I WILL say (pun intended, I am not sorry >.>) that that Ember Heirloom skin is absolute fire. Honestly, It would probably get me to play her more often again too. Everyone wants to look cool while killing stuff after all. xD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrary Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 7 hours ago, Zakkhar said: You clearly do not understand Heat Inherit. In order for Heat Inherit to be beneficial instead of outright detrimental, you need what initially procced Heat to have a source of +Heat damage percentage applied to it (same for Faction Damage). None of Ember's abilities can directly take +Heat damage percentage buffs. So if your proc Heat with her abilities first, the Heat proc damage modifier from +Heat damage percentage buffs is 0 for all other procs after that refresh that initial proc. So as I said, your weapons (priming) have diminished effect on scaling Heat procs if the first one was from Ember's abilities. 7 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Very convaluted way of insulting someone without presenting any arguments. >Argument is that damage output is mid without having to jump through hoops >Somehow "convoluted" Also what insult. I'm gonna guess ESL, cause the "you" there isn't referring to you. 7 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Kindly please read the describtion of the mod. Where does it say it needs to be a kill with (Heat) Dot status? It just needs to be companion's last hit. My comment is based on the fact that a large portion of how Sentinels kill is via Heat procs, as it has the most support for sentinels, and given that you're playing Ember, the frame that procs heat on her main DPS ability. If you want a cascade effect from Contagious Bond, you need the procs from it to kill. So it's not that it doesn't work at all, it's that it 9 hours ago, Arbitrary said: in particular sticks out as not playing nice. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Eclips3_ Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 16 hours ago, Pakaku said: Maybe it's just me, but I use weapons to take care of the killing... To bee fair though, you'd expect a massive blast or a meteor dropping to be more effective at killing than a single pistol round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: My comment is based on the fact that a large portion of how Sentinels kill is via Heat procs So you are intentionally narrowing your picture to Sentinels AND Heat procs even though it can just as well be any Companion and any damage. Way to make assumption so it fits the narrative. 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: >Argument is that damage output is mid without having to jump through hoops >Somehow "convoluted" Also what insult. I'm gonna guess ESL, cause the "you" there isn't referring to you. In the future, if you specifically do not mean "you" as the recipient of the message you are responding to, use more general pronouns (sic!) - there are fine neutral construtions with "one/someone" or "they". Just pay attention. 7 hours ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said: Holy crap I didn't know more strength actively hurt her. It doesnt "hurt", it is just wasted slots and capacity. Alternate cost. 1 hour ago, Arbitrary said: 9 hours ago, Zakkhar said: You clearly do not understand Heat Inherit. In order for Heat Inherit to be beneficial instead of outright detrimental, you need what initially procced Heat to have a source of +Heat damage percentage applied to it (same for Faction Damage). None of Ember's abilities can directly take +Heat damage percentage buffs. So if your proc Heat with her abilities first, the Heat proc damage modifier from +Heat damage percentage buffs is 0 for all other procs after that refresh that initial proc. So as I said, your weapons (priming) have diminished effect on scaling Heat procs if the first one was from Ember's abilities. Not sure if trolling or... Maybe you just do not understand what priming is? Shot in the dark... I think I already told you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrary Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 minute ago, Zakkhar said: So you are intentionally narrowing your picture to Sentinels AND Heat procs even though it can just as well be any Companion and any damage. Way to make assumption so it fits the narrative. Cats, Dogs, and Robo Dogs have very poor damage application. Their issue usually comes from being able to theoretically have hard hitting attacks but having a hard time actually hitting stuff or has relatively slow application. The stuff that has an easy time hitting doesn't hit hard. Sentinels (and Moas, which are basically sentinels) have the best combo of consistently hitting enemies and hitting decently hard. Their ability to hit hard is mainly thanks to Verglas, which relies on stacking DoTs, of which Heat is the strongest as it has the largest source of +Heat damage mods. The bigger issue is all this leads to your Ember build really just being a Contagious Bond build that you happen to use Ember with. 15 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: Not sure if trolling or... Maybe you just do not understand what priming is? Shot in the dark... I think I already told you. Did you not read the context? The whole point was that if your abilities proc an enemy first, which isn't hard to accidentally do given that all of your damaging abilities (Most of which have a large range) proc Heat, then the mechanics of Heat work against you, as now you can't take advantage of +Heat Damage % buffs to scale heat procs unless you wait for the proc to expire. 22 minutes ago, Zakkhar said: In the future, if you specifically do not mean "you" as the recipient of the message you are responding to, use more general pronouns (sic!) - there are fine neutral construtions with "one/someone" or "they". Just pay attention. You is an impersonal pronoun. Using other impersonal pronouns makes the sentence (in this context) read awkwardly and isn't very natural sounding. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: The bigger issue is all this leads to your Ember build really just being a Contagious Bond build that you happen to use Ember with. Not really. It is just an option. Set it and forget it. Depending on the played content, playstyle and experience, using Heat DoT on companion maybe useful or counterproductive. 17 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: The whole point was that if your abilities proc an enemy first, which isn't hard to accidentally do given that all of your damaging abilities Actually It is kinda hard to accidentally do. It is a matter whatever you press one button or the other first. 17 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: then the mechanics of Heat work against you Not it doesnt. 17 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: now you can't take advantage of +Heat Damage % buffs to scale heat procs unless you wait for the proc to expire. Procs expire pretty fast on dead enemies. I was told it is instant. 17 minutes ago, Arbitrary said: You is an impersonal pronoun. Using other impersonal pronouns makes the sentence (in this context) read awkwardly and isn't very natural sounding. It is most definately not. If you rather be misinterpreted or risk offending someone for the sake of not sounding (in your own mind) awkward, we have nothing to discuss: Our values differ dramatically. Edited June 2 by Zakkhar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ErydisTheLucario Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 5 hours ago, Zakkhar said: It doesnt "hurt", it is just wasted slots and capacity. Alternate cost. What would be the play then? Maximize duration and range or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexerin Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said: What would be the play then? Maximize duration and range or something? Efficiency to the cap is the #1 priority, as Ember spams her abilities a lot. She doesn't really care about duration, so long as it isn't negative. She enjoys range, but doesn't necessarily need that much of it (Stretch alone is usually enough). She doesn't really need casting speed, you'll be casting her ability while airborne (due to having to work around the jank of Warframe's LoS system) so the cast times on her abilities are mostly irrelevant (plus they're super short anyways). Here's one example of a build you could use: Spoiler Additionally: 4x tauforge red shards set to ability duration (brings you back to neutral 100% ability duration). 1x choice shard (I recommend an energy capacity shard, for overall energy economy comfort). Due to Fireball Frenzy, you can ignore modding heat onto your weapon(s). This frees up a mod slot for something else. Do not mod a primary element on its own, as the heat from Fireball Frenzy will combine with it. Do not mod any of the heat-based secondary elements (blast/gas/radiation), for the same reason. Unairu for focus school. The extra 200 armor is useful while hunting for Ultimatum activation (generally going to be Mercy on an Eximus). Poise is literally a free Primed Sure Footed. No further explanation needed, I would hope. Caustic Strike (second ability) will give you a way to strip armor off Acolytes (since Fire Blast can't). Ultimately though, you're just not going to be killing things effectively regardless of how you build her. Her kit is just... not that great in the modern environment. Can she kill things? Of course. It just takes time, whereas other frames will wipe rooms in a fraction of the time it takes her (and also with significantly less effort required). Edited June 2 by Hexerin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ErydisTheLucario Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 minute ago, Hexerin said: Efficiency to the cap is the #1 priority, as Ember spams her abilities a lot. She doesn't really care about duration, so long as it isn't negative. She enjoys range, but doesn't necessarily need that much of it (Stretch alone is usually enough). She doesn't really need casting speed, you'll be casting her ability while airborne (due to having to work around the jank of Warframe's LoS system) so the cast times on her abilities are mostly irrelevant (plus they're super short anyways). Here's one example of a build you could use: Hide contents Additionally: 4x tauforge red shards set to ability duration (brings you back to neutral 100% ability duration). 1x choice shard (I recommend an energy capacity shard, for overall energy economy comfort). Due to Fireball Frenzy, you can ignore modding heat onto your weapon(s). This frees up a mod slot for something else. Do not mod a primary element on its own, as the heat from Fireball Frenzy will combine with it. Do not mod any of the heat-based secondary elements (blast/gas/radiation), for the same reason. Unairu for focus school. The extra 200 armor is useful while hunting for Ultimatum activation (generally going to be Mercy on an Eximus). Poise is literally a free Primed Sure Footed. No further explanation needed, I would hope. Ultimately though, you're just not going to be killing things effectively regardless of how you build her. Her kit is just... not that great in the modern environment. Can she kill things? Of course. It just takes time, whereas other frames will wipe rooms in a fraction of the time it takes her (and also with significantly less effort required). This was really helpful and informative. Ik Ember is no room nuke, and I didn't want to just spam 4 for most things. This gives me alot to work with, and I really appreciate the advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrary Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) 6 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Actually It is kinda hard to accidentally do. It is a matter whatever you press one button or the other first. Your abilities hit a much larger area than any conventional priming method. It's far too reductive to say that it's "a matter whatever you press one button or the other first." 6 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Not it doesnt. Heat Inherit is a two way road you know. If your first proc doesn't have all the good scaling stuff (+% Heat Damage and Faction Damage) all Heat procs after on that target that refresh that initial Heat proc now have worse scaling as they aren't able to benefit (or see reduced benefit) from "the good scaling stuff". 6 hours ago, Zakkhar said: Procs expire pretty fast on dead enemies. I was told it is instant. Then why are you priming in the first place? Like the whole point of priming is to make Ember's damage good. 6 hours ago, Zakkhar said: It is most definately not. It literally is. https://langeek.co/en/grammar/course/4/impersonal-pronouns 6 hours ago, Zakkhar said: If you rather be misinterpreted or risk offending someone for the sake of not sounding (in your own mind) awkward, we have nothing to discuss: Our values differ dramatically. You are taking it as an insult because you're reading for an insult, not because it was written as such. Edited June 2 by Arbitrary 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexerin Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 5 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said: This was really helpful and informative. Ik Ember is no room nuke, and I didn't want to just spam 4 for most things. This gives me alot to work with, and I really appreciate the advice! One more thing I forgot to add: Unairu school is also nice because its second ability (the armor strip) will give you a way to strip armor off Acolytes. For whatever reason, Ember's Fire Blast can't strip the armor off Acolytes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakkhar Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 1 minute ago, Arbitrary said: Like the whole point of priming is to make Ember's damage good. Nope. You have read wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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