just remove the arsenal now

[supernils]

It's been made completely redundant by the quick menu in navigation. Or give me a cushion for my navigation seat, because I'll never visit the inside of my orbiter again. Just browsing through UI menus.

I initially liked the change when announced, but making the upgrade menu available takes it one step too far.

Also it should be hidden behind a button, having that nasty bar on the left side all the time is not nice.

ps: coloring the damage types looks ugly too and provides little value

[insanitybit]

Is your complaint that the UI is so useful that you now don't need to use your orbiter?

[supernils]

6 minutes ago, insanitybit said:

Is your complaint that the UI is so useful that you now don't need to use your orbiter?

yeah, as I said. Maybe just remove the whole orbiter? who needs all that when you can just click menus? because fun means... efficiency.

Maybe instead of shooting enemies we could also just click a menu button - if that means we get rewards (numbers) faster, that would be just great, wouldn't it? Damn that button would be sooooo useful!

 

 

 

Edited June 18 by supernils

[insanitybit]

I guess it's kinda confusing to me because you didn't have to go to the orbiter anyway, you could always just change your arsenal in a relay. That's what I usually do. I go to my orbiter to do things with the foundry, primarily, or if I need to get on a team with someone.

I think you're right that there's a limit, you want to find a balance between "I'm just clicking buttons" and "I'm playing a game" but I'm not sure this really pushes things too far. But maybe I'll change my mind.

[supernils]

I may be a bit dramatic here, but usually when games throw QoL at you like there's no tomorrow you know it means they're nearing the end.

Because players aren't enjoying the actual game any more and are only left with chasing their numbers.

A large aspect of my joy with Warframe stems from its creative effort, the art direction and all that. The immersive universe. When I realize that this isn't doing it for me anymore I usually quit instead of succumbing to the mere grind.

I also can't "just not use it" (like also someone suggested when I mentioned something overpowered). The game sticks that s*** in your face. It's there. Ignoring it is an active effort, it's annoying.

[uiuinpl]

16 minutes ago, supernils said:

I may be a bit dramatic here, but usually when games throw QoL at you like there's no tomorrow you know it means they're nearing the end.

Because players aren't enjoying the actual game any more and are only left with chasing their numbers.

A large aspect of my joy with Warframe stems from its creative effort, the art direction and all that. The immersive universe. When I realize that this isn't doing it for me anymore I usually quit instead of succumbing to the mere grind.

I also can't "just not use it" (like also someone suggested when I mentioned something overpowered). The game sticks that s*** in your face. It's there. Ignoring it is an active effort, it's annoying.

What? 

Its the best UI QoL change made by DE. People was begging for that. Right now many peopel can start using faction mods if they enjoy fast mission.
Right now you can be more creative with status rework and fast mod swap. You are mad at good changes? 
Also chasing numbers can be fun for some peopel. For me good build with good number > bad build 

Are you mad because your build will be worse than others people or what? 

 "QoL at you like there's no tomorrow you know it means they're nearing the end." are you really saying something like this when warframe was top 1 selling game on steam for 1 day when gauss prime come out?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 hour ago, supernils said:

It's been made completely redundant by the quick menu in navigation. Or give me a cushion for my navigation seat, because I'll never visit the inside of my orbiter again. Just browsing through UI menus.

I initially liked the change when announced, but making the upgrade menu available takes it one step too far.

Also it should be hidden behind a button, having that nasty bar on the left side all the time is not nice.

ps: coloring the damage types looks ugly too and provides little value

I guess you really enjoy that walk from the nav console to the arsenal.. most other people don't really care though, so you're in like 0.0001% of people against what is essentially a QoL change that 99.9999% of people will agree is an improvement.

it's not gonna be going anywhere now, and if it's that big of a deal, well.. guess your warframe journey must end here then. beaten by a QoL change, who would've thought it...

[supernils]

9 minutes ago, uiuinpl said:

Right now you can be more creative with status rework

status rework is completely different issue. but a UI change does not enable you to "be more creative". This is reducing the game to its ugly core. The beauty is the presentation. You can play mobile games if numbers are your thing.

 

10 minutes ago, uiuinpl said:

Are you mad because your build will be worse than others people or what? 

now we're getting a little primitive here, huh?

4 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

most other people don't really care though, so you're in like 0.0001% of people against what is essentially a QoL change that 99.9999% of people will agree is an improvement.

very weak argumentation making up numbers out of your arse. Also if you'd let players make game design decisions, the game would suck ass. The devs should know that. Guess they don't like their own game anymore. Bummer.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 minutes ago, supernils said:

Guess they don't like their own game anymore. Bummer.

yep. nothing says "we hate our product" more than streaming about it at least once a week, advertising it online, setting up an entire convention hosting thousands of people for it every year, constantly updating and adding to it, revising it and making it the cornerstone of your entire business. but sure, they hate warframe, garbage game, why did they even bother? /s

I think you'll find it's you talking out of your arse, but by all means, keep letting us know how a single QoL change has you all riled up! 😁

[Aadab]

you cant do the most important thing in navigation yet

 

fashion

[uiuinpl]

10 minutes ago, supernils said:

status rework is completely different issue. but a UI change does not enable you to "be more creative". This is reducing the game to its ugly core. The beauty is the presentation. You can play mobile games if numbers are your thing.

 

now we're getting a little primitive here, huh?

very weak argumentation making up numbers out of your arse. Also if you'd let players make game design decisions, the game would suck ass. The devs should know that. Guess they don't like their own game anymore. Bummer.

You dont give any answer that make sens (who know but they dont know but I know so they dont need to know). You are mad at what? Peopel can switch builds without wasting time or what is your problem? 

 

[SymbolicSunshine]

Grr! How dare people ask for and enjoy things I don't! Why are the devs improving the game for them? Shut down the servers!

It actually is the easiest thing in the world to ignore if you don't want to use it, each loadout item is 1 icon big until you click on it to expand it. If you don't want to engage with it, it'll be extraneous background noise by the end of the week, like resource drones. It truly is not that serious.

In any case how long are you spending in the navigation menu a day anyways?

 

Personally I love the new quick-loadouts placement because when I'm doing a multi-part mission set like Sortie, it's gonna be that much easier to prevent some chucklenut from kidnapping me into the mission with a warframe I didn't intend to bring because they loaded into the orbiter 4 seconds before I did and smashed "go".

BTW since you seem to be under the impression the arsenal is redundant now... the arsenal is better for sitting down with your weapons since it actually shows you the weapon stats at a glance without having to open to the upgrade screen. Much better for checking your whole loadout against itself. If you feel that's not worth it that's just your opinion, but ultimately you are in control of the buttons you press, and there's no reason to downgrade QOL for everyone else because you don't want to use something.

54 minutes ago, supernils said:

I may be a bit dramatic here, but usually when games throw QoL at you like there's no tomorrow you know it means they're nearing the end.

[citation needed]

I'll be playing Warframe in 2035, barring some bizarre misfortune or as of this time hypothetical seriously long string of game design I dislike.

[Void2258]

The launch UI is not equivalent. It's good for fast switching, not full building. It s eve missing some things (like you can't upgrade a mod from there, or see the stats for things...).

[EverdarkRaven]

Let's just remove the orbiter at this point. We can go back to 2012-2013 Warframe. 

[carecaplatonico]

3 hours ago, supernils said:

It's been made completely redundant by the quick menu in navigation.

ps: coloring the damage types looks ugly too and provides little value

Redundancy is a nice thing in this context, allows you to do what you want in different ways, in the way that best suits you.

The damage types with colors are nice, i think. Doesn't make anything worse at all, makes it even easier to see and understand what damage types are in the weapon.

I understand that for you the art and the design is very important, but you should understand that not everyone gives it the same importance, most people like a balance between design/looks, and ease of use, praticality.

Some people can spend hours coloring a frame in just the right way, and others don't even change the default colors, they dont care.

[Squick]

5 hours ago, EverdarkRaven said:

Let's just remove the orbiter at this point. We can go back to 2012-2013 Warframe. 

Was about to say, this guy wants the UI from a decade ago...

[supernils]

On 2024-06-19 at 12:15 AM, uiuinpl said:

You dont give any answer that make sens (who know but they dont know but I know so they dont need to know). You are mad at what? Peopel can switch builds without wasting time or what is your problem? 

 

Yeah that's exactly it. You're calling walking around in the Orbiter a waste of time. Just let that sink in.

Why didn't they even put in all those hours of work into creating the Orbiter, when clicking through menus would be faster? 🤔

People can't appreciate anything else than getting big numbers fast. Just sad.

On 2024-06-19 at 12:33 AM, SymbolicSunshine said:

t actually is the easiest thing in the world to ignore if you don't want to use it

is it? Imagine popping into a mission, and there would be a button to complete the mission with all the rewards right then, right there at the beginning. It's tempting, huh? Just ignore it? Would you like that button?

[supernils]

On 2024-06-19 at 12:33 AM, SymbolicSunshine said:

[citation needed]

good example World of Warcraft. They put in loads of QoL over the years, like that quick dungeon finder, just pop into the mission. Practical at first, but comes at a cost, no more social interaction to form a group, no more traveling, no more Warlord summoning people. Why? Because over the years people are only hooked on getting progress fast. The actual game got boring. Or the heirlooms. For people to get to end game quicker, because leveling (playing the game) IS JUST WORK TO THEM. They even put in more stuff like that, getting instant to the highest level, when you invite your friend to the game or something, I don't remember the details.

Star Wars Galaxies (MMORPG before WoW) had space ports where every 10 minutes a ship would land, so you could travel. People were doing RP during wait times (remember? RPG). Then at some point they reduced those wait times. They eventually they completely cut them out. But things like this add immersion to the game. World building. It's when people get bored with the world, the actual game, and all that's left is the grind, when Devs try to please those bored players by throwing out the quick fix, get your XP faster. Growing numbers for that cheap dopamine effect.

I actually don't think that "Warframe is dying", let alone wanting to convince everyone that this is the case. But I see this as a first early sign. I just think that the change is a mistake. Remove the "update" button, put the menu behind a dropdown and we're fine.

Edited June 21 by supernils

[supernils]

why visit the Iron Wake for Riven Splinters? Why can't it just be a menu? Or Baro Kiteer? Why do I have to travel to that god damn relay when I could get my rewards faster in a menu? Would you like that?

[SymbolicSunshine]

8 hours ago, supernils said:

good example World of Warcraft. 

<snip>

Star Wars Galaxies

<snip>

I actually don't think that "Warframe is dying", let alone wanting to convince everyone that this is the case. But I see this as a first early sign. I just think that the change is a mistake. Remove the "update" button, put the menu behind a dropdown and we're fine.

-I'm not sure what I expected but the most consistently popular MMORPG of all time (that has to my knowledge, never given up the throne on playerbase size) was not in the cards. It has had a consistent 2 million~ players with a couple million~ more that resubscribe to play new expansions before dropping again. Just because they are not at their "peak" (which is by definition, unsustainable) doesn't mean they aren't doing well for themselves, and they are certainly in no danger of going out of business any time soon. In fact, their average subscriber count is currently on a rising trend despite the fact their current expansion has been out for a while, which means they're actually beating their own odds right now.

-I've never heard of Galaxies before today but if you can link me a some detailed coverage of those events showing me that specifically is the reason the game died I'll believe you on that example. In the meantime, lacking a deeper understanding of what the problem is, it's your word against Sony's, who acknowledged that change of course was probably a mistake but specifically denied the lack of players was why Galaxies closed. According to them, their contract was up and there was also a new Star Wars MMO releasing which they didn't care to compete with. The implication of that acknowledgement is that they could have course-corrected at any time and even much earlier if they had cared to. The company itself was content to let things play out as their stake in its survival was going to end at a set period in time regardless of how well it did or didn't do for itself.
So that looks more like a parent company mismanagement case to me, rather than the devs just making an oopsie doopsie irreversible mistake.
_{Also, in that regard, I have never heard of another game literally dying from introducing fast travel before, so there are doubtlessly more factors and game mechanics they overhauled that people disliked at play here that are not being mentioned.}

     As a side note over SW:G's closure in particular, the early 2000s were more of a wild west of game design. Game companies oftentimes had no clue what would or would not work. These days for live service games there are generally whole teams whose entire jobs are to look at and learn from the failure and successes of other games, as well as teams who read the room on what the community wants, and figure out if what it wants is the same as what it needs. When Warframe determines internally there's been a legitimate game design mistake that is a major enough issue to impact the long term health of the game, they do correct it, even if it earns the temporary ire of its playerbase. Like what happened with Dante, for example. By no means is this foolproof, but on an industry-wide scale we are for the most part overall in a better (more organized) place than we were when SW:G was in its heyday.

 

But either way, as far as Warframe goes these don't feel like good points of comparison. What similarities does Warframe have with Sony or Blizzard that are ringing your alarm bells so much? A red flag is only such if it's a pattern of behavior. These are different game companies with different approaches* to game design and retaining customers.
_{*(or lack thereof, Sony also almost sunk another of their own games as recently as last month with Helldivers II and while I don't keep up with Blizzard these days for a while it seemed like they couldn't go a month without shooting themselves in the foot with some PR nonsense. A far cry from DE's usual standards.)}

Overall if these are the most pressing examples you have, I am finding your initial sentiment of

On 2024-06-18 at 3:18 PM, supernils said:

you know it means they're nearing the end.

to be lacking in substance and not supportive of your initial claims.

 

Now, forgive me if this is presumptuous but from what you've said

Quote

"...but comes at a cost, no more social interaction to form a group, no more traveling, no more Warlord summoning people...."

"...People were doing RP during wait times (remember? RPG). Then at some point they reduced those wait times. They eventually they completely cut them out. But things like this add immersion to the game. World building. It's when people get bored with the world, the actual game, and all that's left is the grind..."

I'm picking up on a separate concern you have over socializing with players being a key part of playing a game, and this is a very good concern to have over the health of a game, but loadouts in navigation don't "skip" meaningful interactions with other players like what you're comparing these other two games about. On the contrary, if I am spending less time on my loadout, I have more time to talk to other players. So this doesn't really match up either.

 

7 hours ago, supernils said:

why visit the Iron Wake for Riven Splinters? Why can't it just be a menu? Or Baro Kiteer? Why do I have to travel to that god damn relay when I could get my rewards faster in a menu? Would you like that?

Now the next part of my post may sound harsh, but I am posting this in good faith that you are actually taking issue with the things you're arguing against and not trolling.

Iron Wake is a very weak example as the literal only reason to go there is the riven splinters and the Datareaper memorial. (And a mod buy shelf containing the worst mods in the game that nobody really needs). It's not a proper social hub like a relay. You cannot start a mission in Iron Wake, or ask for a blessing, or really hold a conversation with anyone you weren't already talking to before you went there. The only good reason not to put her in a real relay is lore related. In all honesty though I don't even bother to remember Palladino exists most weeks, so maybe she could get put in a menu for relevancy. Personally though I do not find rivens engaging enough to find it necessary to do anything with her unless they want to do something else with her character's story.

Baro on the other hand, you can close his shop and immediately do 10 other things without a loading screen involved (including socializing with other players, which you seemed pressed about when talking about SW:G). There is a large amount of usefulness to him being on the relay. For the reasons I have just stated, I think this is an unlikely hypothetical. I also haven't seen 10 years of community-wide begging for him to sleep on your couch two weekends a month as an improvement for the game. So who exactly is asking for this?

To the speak to the key issue here: If someone could make a good argument for how this would improve the user experience, I would not be opposed, or particularly care. Talking to Baro is not my Peak Excitement Gameplay Experience:tm:. I log on every day to do missions, not futz with Baro or Palladino or the arsenal for 30 minutes.

 

8 hours ago, supernils said:

is it? Imagine popping into a mission, and there would be a button to complete the mission with all the rewards right then, right there at the beginning. It's tempting, huh? Just ignore it? Would you like that button?

This is the most unreasonable hypothetical and obvious nonsense you've invented in this entire thread. What if they did? What if they didn't? What if the world was made of pudding? Slippery Slope fallacy much?

Making up exaggerated hypothetical game design direction scenarios as an emotional response to being told that people -(who have literally been asking for quick-loadout changes for over a decade so the faction mods can be worth half a credit)- like the current implementation of this feature and you don't have to use it if you don't like it does nothing to legitimize your worries. Asking for the loadout button to be hidden via dropdown is the only halfway reasonable thing you've said in this entire thread, and you've hidden it beneath several passive agressive statements that amount to a whole lot of nothing except perhaps earning the ire of other users. The dramaticism needs to end if you are actually wanting a productive conversation of any kind and not just here to smarm at people.

You have reached the territory of looking outside, seeing a beautiful rainy day in a drought, and then saying "I hate rain. What if it rains lava next?" from the get-go. Have some self respect.

 

I stand completely by my initial statement and will add that as a live-service game grows both in playerbase and content, if it does not eventually try to improve itself in any capacity it will die regardless of whatever else it has going for it as people dump it and move on to a new shiny thing that has more of that convenience you seem to detest(?).

From my perspective, right now, Warframe is better than ever, even if there are parts about it I do not enjoy. There is enough of the rest of the game that I can ignore things I don't like. I can also say Duviri and the Circut are killing the game and its so over for DE and this is the surest sign of the game's decline-- because I don't like them or find enjoyment in them; but that doesn't make it any more true or reasonable than your claim about the loadouts at navigation.

Have a nice day, take care and maybe find some perspective.

[supernils]

I don't know if you misunderstand my arguments on purpose but let's explain.

Regarding WoW still having a strong player base: it does, first off because the game went from exceptional to still good, but secondly because that player base are exactly the type of addicts all those QoL changes cater to. But if you'd make a survey everyone would say how the game peaked long ago (WotLK). How it was better before all those changes came.

On SWG: the way SWG actually died (the single most appalling game design decision ever made in video game history btw) has nothing to do with what SOE did prior to that. The change I pointed out was just an example of how Developers throw "QoL" at players to skip parts of the game that only work if you haven't already emotionally checked out of the game (loss of magic) and are only running on the bare grind addiction psychology. So you could have saved yourself of writing that essay on that part.

 

9 hours ago, SymbolicSunshine said:

I'm picking up on a separate concern you have over socializing with players being a key part of playing a game, and this is a very good concern to have over the health of a game, but loadouts in navigation don't "skip" meaningful interactions with other players like what you're comparing these other two games about. On the contrary, if I am spending less time on my loadout, I have more time to talk to other players. So this doesn't really match up either.

Again this was just an example, an analogy. In this case the social aspect being one of those seemingly non-essentials aspects of the game (everything that does not appeal to the reptilian brain). In our case here this aspect is a complete different one. As I said "But things like this add immersion to the game. World building". Creating atmosphere. Having to use the Orbiter (or having to visit Iron Wake or Baro at the relay, to address your other misconception) does that. I think Warframe would suffer a loss if all that would just be menus. Warframe isn't freaking Counterstrike, it's more like an RPG, a game that creates its own immersive universe, with lore and all sorts of interesting places and characters.

 

9 hours ago, SymbolicSunshine said:

Making up exaggerated hypothetical game design direction scenarios [...] The dramaticism needs to end

I don't know how to better illustrate my point other than giving exaggerated analogies. I wasn't comparing the new menu to such a button. I was pointing out the psychology that makes the argument of some people "just don't use this feature if you don't like it" futile. Only for someone capable of intelligent thought to abandon all abstract thinking, to take it literal, just to use against me? I'm having trouble believing you're arguing in good faith here so I end this discussion with you.

 

 

Edited June 22 by supernils