(spoilers) Jade Quest story was not thought through

[Talis7]

Beginning with the time laps. It's been a countless age in the warframe lore. That being said most anyone reading this will probably see where I'm going to be going.

For Jade to be in pregnancy it's suggested she's been that way for awhile. This doesn't couple well with the time line at all. Unless somehow things happened recently

to bring about the warframe pregnancy which I really don't want to explore given the creepy art out there orbiting the sonic universe. But it's highly suggested this 

is how she's been since before the framing procedure given the dialogue. So these are the parts of this that bother me most in no particular order:

1. We are to believe she was in her declining state for x-long long long ages and shadow dad waiting on his laurels on seeking aid till the very end because 'actions have 

consequences tenno'? -.-

2. The clique of 'Too late nothing to be done'. -.-

3. The perpetual pregnancy state in the warframe. Doesn't sit right with me at all because I don't like the idea of having a pregnant lady in combat, let alone doing ninja flips.

4. That her pregnancy carries over via her frame clone dispersed thru the tenno masses. Extra layer of wtf. 

5. Does this mean that eventually Shadow daddy will have a million+ framebabies? Or are they all stillborn while locked in a forever oven?

I really don't think this was thought through on multiple fronts to say the least.     

[trst]

1: We don't know how long the decline was. Meanwhile we do know that during the collapse Jade was well enough to defend Stalker.

2: Not sure what this issue is. Stalker refused to go to the Tenno for help until it was too late to save her, which is also assuming she could survive the birth anyways, but it was still in time to save the child.

3,4,5: Nothing says the frame is still pregnant since the original Jade is now dead.

 

This seems more like you're way overthinking things.

[Talis7]

49 minutes ago, trst said:

1: We don't know how long the decline was. Meanwhile we do know that during the collapse Jade was well enough to defend Stalker.

2: Not sure what this issue is. Stalker refused to go to the Tenno for help until it was too late to save her, which is also assuming she could survive the birth anyways, but it was still in time to save the child.

3,4,5: Nothing says the frame is still pregnant since the original Jade is now dead.

 

This seems more like you're way overthinking things.

1. The decline was long enough (suggested to be 1000+ years but mileage may vary) to make it not make a lot of sense.

2. Issue being it's typical. Cliché. And it doesn't really fit in with the narrative too well when folded into the story of Schodinger's tenno.

3,4,5: Which means stillbirth which is just as bad/worse and doesn't change the fact having a pregnant lady in battle doing backflips and space ninjaing is still wrong.

Maybe I'm over thinking? What? These are plot holes and really questionable decisions on the base of the story that are fairly basic. Not even past the icing.

[PollexMessier]

1 hour ago, trst said:

3,4,5: Nothing says the frame is still pregnant since the original Jade is now dead.

Except that she still has the pregger belly.

Sure you could just chock that up to developer lazynes of them not wanting to make a second model with a flattened stomach for the crafted frame, but really, REALLY poorly placed developer lazynes.

Since she was pregnant from the start of her creation, and after crafting a copy of her she still has the stomach, it's reasonable to assume that, however the blueprint works, it considered the baby inside her as part of her body and original design, so reproduces that as well. Otherwise, she wouldn't still have the stomach.

A ton of crap about this quest creates holes in the lore or outright contradicts existing parts of the lore. The whole plot of the quest was so obviously shoehorned in it's crazy.

I want you to consider Umbra. Umbra was not originally part of the Warframe story plan. He was added after the chinese servers shutdown to preserve parts of that version of the game that weren't in the international release. But he feels like a completely organic and integral part of the story. He was shoehorned in, but everything about him made sense and fit with the lore.

This whole quest barely even feels like the same game. It outright ignores existing parts of the lore, it doesn't feel like it connects to anything. It sets up this stupid lingering plot thread nobody wants of this dumb baby mguffin, and to top it all off it shoves this whole pregnancy thing in our faces so hard that you can't even play jade without having a pregnant belly constantly on your screen. This crap is really bad. I've never been upset with DE about their writing up to this point. Their game mechanics, yeah, a lot, but their writing has always been pretty cool and solid, if a bit confusing and esoteric. But it's not like it's the only game that does that, and it doesn't do it very poorly... until now. This felt like a Teenage deviantart fanfiction. The decline is incredibly jarring and concerning.

[trst]

1 hour ago, Talis7 said:

1. The decline was long enough (suggested to be 1000+ years but mileage may vary) to make it not make a lot of sense.

2. Issue being it's typical. Cliché. And it doesn't really fit in with the narrative too well when folded into the story of Schodinger's tenno.

3,4,5: Which means stillbirth which is just as bad/worse and doesn't change the fact having a pregnant lady in battle doing backflips and space ninjaing is still wrong.

Maybe I'm over thinking? What? These are plot holes and really questionable decisions on the base of the story that are fairly basic. Not even past the icing.

1: This is the first and only known case of a frame being pregnant. For all we know frame gestation takes that long.

2: The alternative is having a living sentient Jade running around which raises more questions.

3: Looking pregnant =/= actually being pregnant.

No this is definitely overthinking the whole thing.

41 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

Except that she still has the pregger belly.

Sure you could just chock that up to developer lazynes of them not wanting to make a second model with a flattened stomach for the crafted frame, but really, REALLY poorly placed developer lazynes.

Since she was pregnant from the start of her creation, and after crafting a copy of her she still has the stomach, it's reasonable to assume that, however the blueprint works, it considered the baby inside her as part of her body and original design, so reproduces that as well. Otherwise, she wouldn't still have the stomach.

A ton of crap about this quest creates holes in the lore or outright contradicts existing parts of the lore. The whole plot of the quest was so obviously shoehorned in it's crazy.

I want you to consider Umbra. Umbra was not originally part of the Warframe story plan. He was added after the chinese servers shutdown to preserve parts of that version of the game that weren't in the international release. But he feels like a completely organic and integral part of the story. He was shoehorned in, but everything about him made sense and fit with the lore.

This whole quest barely even feels like the same game. It outright ignores existing parts of the lore, it doesn't feel like it connects to anything. It sets up this stupid lingering plot thread nobody wants of this dumb baby mguffin, and to top it all off it shoves this whole pregnancy thing in our faces so hard that you can't even play jade without having a pregnant belly constantly on your screen. This crap is really bad. I've never been upset with DE about their writing up to this point. Their game mechanics, yeah, a lot, but their writing has always been pretty cool and solid, if a bit confusing and esoteric. But it's not like it's the only game that does that, and it doesn't do it very poorly... until now. This felt like a Teenage deviantart fanfiction. The decline is incredibly jarring and concerning.

Again looking pregnant =/= being pregnant. And you can't really call it "lazy" when that's how all frames have worked with the original frames resemble the replicas we're running around with or at least resemble the frame the BP is based on (ie: base Valkyr). For the Jade we get to appear differently from Jade in the quest would be an exception to the rule since that's literally the original Jade and she never "lost" the belly.

And if it contradicts so much about the existing lore you're free to start listing off exactly what that is. As is nothing in the lore says a frame pregnancy can't happen and Stalker's lore was already barebones at best yet nothing added contradicts what we do know about him. The only part that is weird is why Xeto let Stalker go but that also doesn't contradict anything since we have no knowledge on Xeto.

Edited June 20 by trst

[Talis7]

5 hours ago, trst said:

1: This is the first and only known case of a frame being pregnant. For all we know frame gestation takes that long.

2: The alternative is having a living sentient Jade running around which raises more questions.

3: Looking pregnant =/= actually being pregnant.

No this is definitely overthinking the whole thing.

1. Which is the major plot whole I spoke of on the first post. So much time of her being in pregnant state and shadow daddy sitting on laurels does not

a good shadow daddy douth suggest.

2. Umbra Excal.

3. Given they're cloned and copied reanimated nanobiotic infested corpses when tenno get hold of them, I'm going to assume that yes our

versions of Jade are not actually preggos (or really hope not). Instead a demented appearance there of. Which remains as stated: Stillborn. Which really makes things

a lot worse. The appearance of a prego lady space ninjaing about regardless of super position of cyborg zombie unborn baby state is still very yins. Quick gleam adding a new question that makes the entire thing a lot worse.

Was the copy given by old man sentient to tenno(s) designed like that from the get go or twas a modification in the after? Not that it really matters given the end result. The appearance of a pregnant lady in the mist of super ninja space combat. Really really bad optics regardless of the wholes ripping through the plot. 

This is my base level thinking trst. I could try and over think it if you want. Really super dive into it and find all the other issues this has with all the other angles of the story of the game.

This is beginning to go around in circles though so this will likely be my last post on this subject. I've stated my points, you have yours. I'll have to respectfully disagree at this point and hopefully you'll agree. Wishing a good space murder belly dancing for you on your missions and may it bring many a pile of steam punk/corp cyborg robot corpses.

 

[Thanatos9t]

In regards to your point 3 about the player Foundry constructed Jade Warframe being perpetually pregnant, remember that Valkyr is a flayed Warframe (Gersemi) and our reconstructed version include the flayed aspect of it which means that every Non-Prime Valkyr that gets built is in a constant state of skinless agony.

As others have said it is more that the Jade Warframe has the appearance of being pregnant rather than actually being pregnant, as that was the physical form it had when its blueprint was created and the Foundry is like a 3D printer.

Edited June 20 by Thanatos9t

[PollexMessier]

10 hours ago, trst said:

And if it contradicts so much about the existing lore you're free to start listing off exactly what that is. As is nothing in the lore says a frame pregnancy can't happen and Stalker's lore was already barebones at best yet nothing added contradicts what we do know about him. The only part that is weird is why Xeto let Stalker go but that also doesn't contradict anything since we have no knowledge on Xeto.

I don't actually think the pregnancy contradicts the lore, and I provided a reason why it would persist into the crafted version of her. I don't even thing the concept of a frame getting pregnant is a bad idea. But how it was executed was disgusting, and no sane person wants to run around in a frame with a pregnant belly. That all fits well enough, I just think it was terrible.

Where plotholes start to show up is with stalker. He's clearly very highly motivated by his love for Jade, the quest seems to try to paint it as his main motivation.... which contradicts pretty much everything else he's done thus far, and even his actions within the same quest. Because, he hates the tenno for genociding the Orokin. That is the one bit of lore we knew about him going into this. But he and jade were turned into warframes, and jade subsequently started dying, because the Orokin forbade their love for eachother. How does that check out? He was also upset she saved him instead of protecting the Orokin during the Orokin genocide. At the start of the quest: "But none of these compare to your guilt. Of all the gods and golden lords, why was it you she saved" If we take Hunhows words here as accurate, stalker would have preferred jade save the orokin, and doesn't understand why she saved him instead. Then we later learn they were lovers as humans and got turned into warframes as punishment for that. So stalker... is still loyal to the Orokin and doesn't know why his girlfriend chose him over them, And hates us for killing the people that destroyed his and his lovers lives? It makes absolutely no god damn sense.

Their sentience is also a bit of a plothole. The one bit of lore we actually got that we wanted about him, is that he is in fact a sentient warframe. But he and jade are/were much more lucid than umbra was, and unlike umbra, reconstructing jade didn't preserve her sentience. So something different is clearly going on with them. And while this doesn't contradict anything, we're not given even the faintest hint of an explanation for this. It is a plot hole and it's incredibly frustrating when we were promised lore about stalker. The one bit of information we got that we actually wanted to know just created multiple other questions.

Also Xeto letting stalker go wasn't wierd... dude was carrying a baby. It was a very clear character moment that shows she cares about the sanctity of life over her orders. The corpus aren't heartless monsters. That was one of the few parts of the quest that didn't feel like an a**-pull.

[trst]

2 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I don't actually think the pregnancy contradicts the lore, and I provided a reason why it would persist into the crafted version of her. I don't even thing the concept of a frame getting pregnant is a bad idea. But how it was executed was disgusting, and no sane person wants to run around in a frame with a pregnant belly. That all fits well enough, I just think it was terrible.

Where plotholes start to show up is with stalker. He's clearly very highly motivated by his love for Jade, the quest seems to try to paint it as his main motivation.... which contradicts pretty much everything else he's done thus far, and even his actions within the same quest. Because, he hates the tenno for genociding the Orokin. That is the one bit of lore we knew about him going into this. But he and jade were turned into warframes, and jade subsequently started dying, because the Orokin forbade their love for eachother. How does that check out? He was also upset she saved him instead of protecting the Orokin during the Orokin genocide. At the start of the quest: "But none of these compare to your guilt. Of all the gods and golden lords, why was it you she saved" If we take Hunhows words here as accurate, stalker would have preferred jade save the orokin, and doesn't understand why she saved him instead. Then we later learn they were lovers as humans and got turned into warframes as punishment for that. So stalker... is still loyal to the Orokin and doesn't know why his girlfriend chose him over them, And hates us for killing the people that destroyed his and his lovers lives? It makes absolutely no god damn sense.

Their sentience is also a bit of a plothole. The one bit of lore we actually got that we wanted about him, is that he is in fact a sentient warframe. But he and jade are/were much more lucid than umbra was, and unlike umbra, reconstructing jade didn't preserve her sentience. So something different is clearly going on with them. And while this doesn't contradict anything, we're not given even the faintest hint of an explanation for this. It is a plot hole and it's incredibly frustrating when we were promised lore about stalker. The one bit of information we got that we actually wanted to know just created multiple other questions.

Also Xeto letting stalker go wasn't wierd... dude was carrying a baby. It was a very clear character moment that shows she cares about the sanctity of life over her orders. The corpus aren't heartless monsters. That was one of the few parts of the quest that didn't feel like an a**-pull.

You're assuming there's a contradiction in Stalker's motives by assuming the Warframe project broke his loyalty to the Orokin. While it's literally shown that he retained said loyalty with his first reaction to the news being the law violation and him not understanding why Jade saved him. He valued the Orokin's laws and their lives over his own, Jade's, and their child.

If that wasn't Stalker's stance then he wouldn't have jumped to the law issue and wouldn't have expected Jade to have fought for someone else's survival.

 

As for our Jade not being sentient like Umbra we did reconstruct Umbra out of his actual corpse. Meanwhile Jade literally turned into light and was given to us by Hunhow. We also don't know if Umbra's situation of persisting past reconstruction isn't due to Ballas' specific punishment for him. Or it could even have to do with how traumatic Umbra's transformation (betrayed and forced to kill his son) was vs Jade's (who even as a frame still had Stalker and technically still had the child). Plus Umbra died in agony over his failed revenge vs Jade choosing to die for the child. 

Also we have recieved answers on Stalker with this. It further established the extent of his loyalty to the Orokin. And confirmed that he is in-fact in the same situation as Umbra, something we could only infer on before. All on top of having the character development of his history with Jade.

 

Also I'd still say Xeto is still the strangest part considering what the Corpus enable in Fortuna. I guess they stop caring once they're large enough to have their organs removed. And even if it was just Xeto's personal decision it could have done with some line of her explaining herself to Parvos.

[PollexMessier]

1 hour ago, trst said:

Also I'd still say Xeto is still the strangest part considering what the Corpus enable in Fortuna. I guess they stop caring once they're large enough to have their organs removed. And even if it was just Xeto's personal decision it could have done with some line of her explaining herself to Parvos.

So, us getting no actual clarification on stalker's motivations despite it not making sense is totally believable

But this isn't?

You're assuming the corpus all follow the same rules and morality.

But that's not the case. The corpus is split into sub-factions based on which board member is heading the group. Nef runs Fortuna, and we know that Parvos disapproves of the dept internment camps. The different heads have their own goals and morality and run their branch of the corpus accordingly. And extending off that idea, every individual corpus doesn't have to just follow the rules and morality of their leaders. Case and point: Veso disobeying Alad to try and save people from, and strike a blow against the sentient.

And before you say the Solaris trapped on corpus ships, that can only be saved by the crowns carried by people seemingly devoted to Parvos, contradicts that he's against internment camps like Fortuna; Nef set all that up before making contact with Parvos. That's all under Nef's rule. The only corpus ships confirmed owned by Parvos's branch are the ones in railjack missions. And while they still have the racks, there's never any Solaris in them. And we can also assume any corpus ship nodes that may actually be owned by Parvos after the events of buried debts, that still have the Solaris captives in them, is just a gameplay concession.

[matt11mz]

On 2024-06-19 at 11:23 PM, Talis7 said:

Beginning with the time laps. It's been a countless age in the warframe lore. That being said most anyone reading this will probably see where I'm going to be going.

For Jade to be in pregnancy it's suggested she's been that way for awhile. This doesn't couple well with the time line at all. Unless somehow things happened recently

to bring about the warframe pregnancy which I really don't want to explore given the creepy art out there orbiting the sonic universe. But it's highly suggested this 

is how she's been since before the framing procedure given the dialogue. So these are the parts of this that bother me most in no particular order:

1. We are to believe she was in her declining state for x-long long long ages and shadow dad waiting on his laurels on seeking aid till the very end because 'actions have 

consequences tenno'? -.-

2. The clique of 'Too late nothing to be done'. -.-

3. The perpetual pregnancy state in the warframe. Doesn't sit right with me at all because I don't like the idea of having a pregnant lady in combat, let alone doing ninja flips.

4. That her pregnancy carries over via her frame clone dispersed thru the tenno masses. Extra layer of wtf. 

5. Does this mean that eventually Shadow daddy will have a million+ framebabies? Or are they all stillborn while locked in a forever oven?

I really don't think this was thought through on multiple fronts to say the least.     

1&2. Yes. The Tenno are his sworn enemy, and he was too proud to seek them until it was too late. That's the big lesson, if he set aside his ego earlier, he might have been able to help her. Probably not, as I'll get to later, but he didn't know that her fate was probably inevitable.

3,4,5. She is not like a pregnant human, from what we know about warframes, her womb was basically a petty cosmetic choice by Ballas. Functionally, she's a smaller Grendel. Also, her baby seems to be raw energy until birth, so I don't think shaking the baby is a concern, and there's enough frames with a held energy orb design that one could argue that her "womb" could be ruptured with no harm done to the fetusframe. We probably don't have a space fetus in our Jade, either.

Think of Nekros Prime. He has a patch of exposed intestine design, but he isn't really running around with a hole in his stomach. Limbo also technically has a flesh hat, casually taking off a part of him for flair. Dagath's head is 90% hole yet she still moves around and fights, implying that she doesn't need a conventional brain. As far as I'm concerned, the pregnancy is exclusive to the original Jade, and the womb is just Ballas's twisted sense of humor.

[Hexwater]

On 2024-06-20 at 10:44 AM, trst said:

3: Looking pregnant =/= actually being pregnant.

One of noble idle animation Jade has is rubbing the belly in a clear manner she's pregnant. 

Also, giving birth minigame during the quest was tactless, and that perma-preg belly is a reminder of that.

[trst]

1 hour ago, Hexwater said:

One of noble idle animation Jade has is rubbing the belly in a clear manner she's pregnant. 

Also, giving birth minigame during the quest was tactless, and that perma-preg belly is a reminder of that.

And? The idle animations of frames represent their "personalities" and Jade spent her entire existance as a frame being pregnant. It still doesn't mean our Jade copies are also pregnant.

[Hexwater]

6 hours ago, trst said:

And? The idle animations of frames represent their "personalities" and Jade spent her entire existance as a frame being pregnant. It still doesn't mean our Jade copies are also pregnant.

So Jade has perma-preg personality
That's even worse. 

Idk what are you trying to say overall. 
I'm surprised there isn't "shes not pregnant cause she doesnt exist" argument already. 

Anyway, Jades design goal is to be visibly pregnant, and the animations don't help. 
This takes away from obviously better aesthetic theme that is angels.

[Gaxxian]

hace 9 horas, Hexwater dijo:

One of noble idle animation Jade has is rubbing the belly in a clear manner she's pregnant. 

And she doesnt lose opportunity to show off her pregnant belly at any ocassion with both her animation sets. Yet there is people that act like the ones that think that this looks like a fetishistic approach to pregnancy are crazy.

I'm lucky myself to have Gara noble animations unlocked... those are way better imho.

[Hexwater]

On 2024-06-26 at 11:06 AM, Gaxxian said:

And she doesnt lose opportunity to show off her pregnant belly at any ocassion with both her animation sets. Yet there is people that act like the ones that think that this looks like a fetishistic approach to pregnancy are crazy.

I totally agree. 
I've never seen a pregnant woman showing off her belly like that; with twirls no less.

I bought Jade's package, including her animations, on release before doing the quest and catching on the pregnancy stuff.
I've seen the light motes going down on Jade, and I was curious if they will appear on other frames (like Wisp's speck of light or iridescence for Citrine), 

Just when I was pleased they do appear indeed, my Yareli did the belly rub idle animation...

I went back to using Garuda's idle animation on Yareli, wishing I could do a refund without a hassle

Edited Thursday at 08:46 PM by Hexwater