I dislike the new resistances/status/armor rework.

[kuciol]

4 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Because you are lying to my face and somehow acting like you’re not when you say I one-shot things, because I didn’t one-shot things because I often (if not constantly) specifically combined build and content to engage with the systems because of what the systems brought to the table. Things which are now gone while you try and convince me nothing’s different, which may be true for you who think big DPeenS is the end all be all, but things changed for someone who did more than live in a few meta builds or offset themselves from the content they’re doing.

Just because you sucked at the game and needed to always be built higher than the content you were doing, hiding behind your builds because actually jumping into content you were actually built for would see you dead, doesn’t mean everyone did what you do, and every single build from the modless baseline had a limit to how far it’d go, which meant that it’d start engaging with systems the further it was pushed until it hit unbalanced SP which threw the rulebook out the window

I know you know nothing because you can’t get your head out of the ass of “Oh, one-shot kills, one shot kills!” long enough to realise the reason why you were one-shotting things, thinking it’s some kind of impressive feat to jump into content tens if not hundreds of levels lower than what you were built for and ignoring way more game mechanics than just the damage types

And what it did brought to the table? Convoluted mess of resistances that ultimately didnt matter because we had litteraly 3 enemies that didnt die when you farted at their general direction despite even using elements they were resistant to? You are the prime example of why its pointless to talk to people who are full of themselves. You must be American. Your "im the only one good at the game you all suck" attitude just shows that YOU are the one that doesnt know how to play. Keep being you i guess.

Edited Wednesday at 01:27 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

And what it did brought to the table? Convoluted mess of resistances that ultimately didnt matter because we had litteraly 3 enemies that didnt die when you farted at their general direction despite even using elements they were resistant to? You are the prime example of why its pointless to talk to people who are full of themselves. Your "im the only one good at the game you all suck" attitude just shows that YOU are the one that doesnt know how to play. Keep being you i guess.

I wouldn’t have even brought up how you’re acting like a build I’d give my dead grandmother specifically because of how easy it makes the game equates to being good at the game if you didn’t start into the idea and I told you to cram it; I don’t typically care unless you want to step up, since a) I love the accessibility this game provides and prefer how my way of playing is optional so others aren’t so forced into it (though inevitably they would be if they explored more, but because they’re not interesting in exploring there’s no problem), and b) I respect how fun it can be to just go nuts, and I also make builds and combine them with content in ways that facilitate that style, so it’s not a foreign concept to me even if the alternative is a world you have no idea about.

The old system brought to the table the classic rock-paper-scissors system of not being able to smack every enemy equally effective with the one weapon, which forced wrinkles into the fight and caused the player to be more considerate according to how the fight was progressing and what they brought. I’m going to trust you to imagine just what that might look like when there’s the added wrinkle of enemy threat to both player and objective (yes I know threat and having to deal with it is a foreign concept to you). Plus it gave more reason to have more damage types and subsequent status procs because despite not every enemy being weak to the same thing, there were more weaknesses to take advantage of and more rewarding of different damage types

[kuciol]

25 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

The old system brought to the table the classic rock-paper-scissors system of not being able to smack every enemy equally effective with the one weapon, which forced wrinkles into the fight and caused the player to be more considerate according to how the fight was progressing and what they brought.

It didnt, lets end that here. The only enemies that it did matter were Bombards, Heavy Gunners and Necramechs. Acting like it wasnt the case just because you need to feel being good at something doesnt change facts. You try really hard to bend reality here because you have the need to be good at the game.

Edited Wednesday at 02:03 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

Just now, kuciol said:

It didnt, lets end that here. The only enemies that it did matter were Bombards, Heavy Gunners and Necramechs. Acting like it wasnt the case just because you need to be feel being good at something doesnt change facts. You try really hard to bend reality here because you have the need to be good at something.

Oh my god, do I need to fu- freaking need to spell it out to you, you who can’t seem to get past the idea that I’m not building or playing like you all the time?

Here’s a gun loaded up with enough damage to overpower any resistances; Now I’ve replaced two mods with, I dunno, zoom and punchthrough. What do you think happens when the gun goes from overpowering resistances to not overpowering resistances? You’d think it’d be prudent to start looking at what damage type it does and what enemy it’s shooting, right?

[kuciol]

12 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Oh my god, do I need to fu- freaking need to spell it out to you, you who can’t seem to get past the idea that I’m not building or playing like you all the time?

Here’s a gun loaded up with enough damage to overpower any resistances; Now I’ve replaced two mods with, I dunno, zoom and punchthrough. What do you think happens when the gun goes from overpowering resistances to not overpowering resistances? You’d think it’d be prudent to start looking at what damage type it does and what enemy it’s shooting, right?

Handicaping yourself doesnt make your argument valid. Also vast majority of engame weapons are still strong enough for that not to matter even without accounting for frames powers.

[Xzorn]

On 2024-06-24 at 9:36 PM, trst said:

The only people it ever mattered to was new players who're lacking in options. So knowing if a certain mod/weapon you do have would be better suited favors them more. Especially as in-game knowledge of resistances was locked behind the scanning system.

As for more experienced players honestly the needle hasn't really changed. The only real differences being that it takes slightly less effort to brute force armor without armor stripping, non-grineer factions are slightly tankier, and there's some more elements to consider when making a build but the meta ones remained unchanged.

 

I feel majority of players never really pushed to see the difference. Which is kinda DE's fault for keeping players in the max level 100 box.

I like to use Corpus as an example in this regard for the old Damage / Status system.

• Pure Toxic on non Status Weapon.
• Gas Status is obvious. Gas + Cold or Gas + Electric.
• Viral Crit surpasses pure Toxic around level 350 as most enemies had more HP than Shields.
• Viral + Electric for non-Crit weapons.
• Toxic at level 350 range only if the weapon's base Crit Multiplier is x3 or higher.
• Viral + Slash for Corpus under 300 range.
• Pure Physical Slash for Corpus above level 400.

See how versatile damage and status combinations actually were for one faction simply based on the level range and weapon used?
I find the new system so boring by comparison. I used every damage and Status type but Magnetic back in the day.

[Merkranire]

14 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Handicaping yourself doesnt make your argument valid. Also vast majority of engame weapons are still strong enough for that not to matter even without accounting for frames powers.

It’s not a handicap, it’s a different build that just so happens to only go so far; it’d be a pretty piss-poor buildcrafting game if all we had was one build, instead of a bunch of modless gear representing the broadest build canvas and a bunch of ways to build it and a range of content levels that allows us to use whatever build we want instead of forcing us into level cap.

And it absolutely validates my argument, because whether you know it or not, you’ve been sinking forma and binning options and trashing builds you may very well want to use, possibly complaining about how DE are forcing you to grind the treadmill of power, all in order to bypass the system when you could have spent 5 minutes learning it while opening up your gameplay and gear options

edit: 🤔 Wait, was that my argument? These things are pretty intertwined; more actual fighting and engaging gameplay and more options to use in more ways while being less of a slave to the grind

Edited Wednesday at 02:37 AM by Merkranire

[kuciol]

I dont complain because i know what kind of game warframe is. 

If the only way to see any difference is by literaly make yourself weaker on purpose than you just proved my point. This "different way to play the game" is just empty statement. It makes 0 difference if you hit E with pure fire or radiation silva and aegis. Mobs still die the same. On normal starchart it doesnt make any difference what you have on a weapon because enemies are just that weak. Nobody in those levels even bothers with faction specific mods. There is just no need.

 

Everything you say is purely a YOU problem, not the game.

[balckillofdeath]

i like and dislike the new system.

on one hand, having partial armor strip actually feel useful is amazing. changes to statuses mostly feels good. 

the parts that disappoints me is how little thought it takes to make the best upfront damage dealing(no statuses) situatiation

on the other hand its kind of riduculous to know all the different health types and how they interact with every health before.

 

[trst]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I feel majority of players never really pushed to see the difference. Which is kinda DE's fault for keeping players in the max level 100 box.

I like to use Corpus as an example in this regard for the old Damage / Status system.

• Pure Toxic on non Status Weapon.
• Gas Status is obvious. Gas + Cold or Gas + Electric.
• Viral Crit surpasses pure Toxic around level 350 as most enemies had more HP than Shields.
• Viral + Electric for non-Crit weapons.
• Toxic at level 350 range only if the weapon's base Crit Multiplier is x3 or higher.
• Viral + Slash for Corpus under 300 range.
• Pure Physical Slash for Corpus above level 400.

See how versatile damage and status combinations actually were for one faction simply based on the level range and weapon used?
I find the new system so boring by comparison. I used every damage and Status type but Magnetic back in the day.

That's not really a defense for the system if it only mattered in endurance content. No content we're actually incentivized to run hits those level ranges (minus Circuit but Decrees exist).

And, iirc, the highest natural levels are in the low 300's and that's only in Deep Archimedea. Making it perhaps the only place the system mattered which isn't saying much of anything when it's a single faction. At that point it's no different from Archon one-shot builds or Eidolon builds.

Also I don't see what would be boring about the new system. All that really changed is having more worthwhile element effects. You can still go and minmax damage for some arbitrary endless threshold all you want.

[Merkranire]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I dont complain because i know what kind of game warframe is. 

If the only way to see any difference is by literaly make yourself weaker on purpose than you just proved my point. This "different way to play the game" is just empty statement. It makes 0 difference if you hit E with pure fire or radiation silva and aegis. Mobs still die the same. On normal starchart it doesnt make any difference what you have on a weapon because enemies are just that weak. Nobody in those levels even bothers with faction specific mods. There is just no need.

 

Everything you say is purely a YOU problem, not the game.

Sigh.

It did make a difference if you hit E with pure fire or radiation, and it was great. Now it makes no difference.

But sure. The fact that your build and my build played out differently in the same content, you’re right that it… didn’t work like that. Despite the inability to do otherwise.

Man you’re convoluted and weird. And limited if you’re too scared to replace some of that unnecessary power when you’re not doing content that requires it

[Merkranire]

17 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I dont complain because i know what kind of game warframe is. 

If the only way to see any difference is by literaly make yourself weaker on purpose than you just proved my point. This "different way to play the game" is just empty statement. It makes 0 difference if you hit E with pure fire or radiation silva and aegis. Mobs still die the same. On normal starchart it doesnt make any difference what you have on a weapon because enemies are just that weak. Nobody in those levels even bothers with faction specific mods. There is just no need.

 

Everything you say is purely a YOU problem, not the game.

Also it didn’t matter if you replaced some mods or jumped into something higher level; you were overpowering resistances because you’d build beyond the content you were doing, which means if you replaced mods and stayed in the content or kept the same mods and jumped into something higher level, theoretically you’d be dealing with resistances again. (the game just wasn’t balanced if you got high enough)

Edited Wednesday at 03:01 AM by Merkranire

[kuciol]

I rarely play regular path and it still didnt matter, ever. I dont swap mods because there is no need for it, never was. Its just that simple. Changing mods for the sake of just changing them is plain stupid. In a game where Saryn, Volt, Dante and many other nuke entire rooms within second swaping a mod for regular path enemies is silly.

[Merkranire]

22 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I rarely play regular path and it still didnt matter, ever. I dont swap mods because there is no need for it, never was. Its just that simple. Changing mods for the sake of just changing them is plain stupid. In a game where Saryn, Volt, Dante and many other nuke entire rooms within second swaping a mod for regular path enemies is silly.

The reason to change the mod was to change and customise how the gameplay worked for the content being done, how is that not landing.

You keep positing things like how you can clear a room in seconds, and I’m not arguing that, I’m saying that’s not always the most desired way to play; changing builds and gameplay leads to, well, different gameplay, using alternative builds if not alternative equipment and alternative builds and exploring more of the options earned through gameplay when someone isn’t interested in playing like you do all the time.

Right now it feels like you’d give me a build, tell me what it does, I’d say “Cool, I’ll keep that in the back pocket or store it in the loadout manager” and then proceed to shatter your mind when I break up or make changes to the build to experience different gameplay, and the fact that your mind would be so shattered seems so strange in a game about playing in different ways where you seem to have some strange hangup about how much damage you do and how easy the game is

Edited Wednesday at 03:43 AM by Merkranire

[kuciol]

Again thats a YOU problem, not the game. Changing elemental mods do not change how you play at all. Its all in your head, you feel like you did something but in reality enemies die the same, doesnt matter what elemental effect you have. Its changing something only for the sake of change, nothing more.

Edited Wednesday at 03:49 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

Again thats a YOU problem, not the game. Changing elemental mods do not change how you play at all. Its all in your head, you feel like you did something but in reality enemies die the same, doesnt matter what elemental effect you have. Its changing something only for the sake of change, nothing more.

I did have an effect on the fighting you-!!!

Why are you trying to gaslight me? Do you think I did it because it was the same as ignoring the system?

[kuciol]

It clearly doesnt since im still here. You dont know what gaslighting is it seems.

 

You did it because you wanted to, thats all but acting like its somehow changed gameplay is simply wrong. You still performed the same action of shooting dude until he died, nothing changed. What changed were the numbers displayed on your screen, nothing more.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, trst said:

That's not really a defense for the system if it only mattered in endurance content. No content we're actually incentivized to run hits those level ranges (minus Circuit but Decrees exist).

And, iirc, the highest natural levels are in the low 300's and that's only in Deep Archimedea. Making it perhaps the only place the system mattered which isn't saying much of anything when it's a single faction.

 

This is what I mean about DE keeping players in the level 100 box for years.

Frames and weapons well outperformed level 100 a very long time ago. Solo. Let alone in groups.

Groups being something they've been trying to force. If I could have simply started at level 300 back then I would have. It was never about the time. It was about enemies who can fight back. Achemedia doesn't really compare since the Defense Scaling nerfs. All this time they were trying to force players to group when they just needed it to be beneficial beyond rewards for them to do so. Much of the community saw a problem that wasn't actually there.

[Merkranire]

Just now, kuciol said:

It clearly doesnt since im still here. You dont know what gaslighting is it seems.

 

You did it because you wanted to, thats all but acting like its somehow changed gameplay is simply wrong. You still performed the same action of shooting dude until he died, nothing changed. What changed were the numbers displayed on your screen, nothing more.

😐

I guess I expected too much of you to imagine what a fight would be like when enemy weakness and resistances meant that intertwining the use of melee, secondary, primary, and Warframe, built for the content and designed to be intertwined, is important for the fight and failing to adequately consider means bad things happen to either the player or the thing they’re defending

[kuciol]

Because thats empty statement. Thats not how the game plays at all. It is power fantasy, we tear through hordes of enemies within seconds. To play differently you have to intentionaly gimp yourself. There is nothing wrong with playing like that but acting like thats the norm or how it should be is being dishonest at best. For overwhelming majority of players thats not how they even want it.

[Merkranire]

13 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because thats empty statement. Thats not how the game plays at all. It is power fantasy, we tear through hordes of enemies within seconds. To play differently you have to intentionaly gimp yourself. There is nothing wrong with playing like that but acting like thats the norm or how it should be is being dishonest at best. For overwhelming majority of players thats not how they even want it.

I never fuc- freaking said it was the norm, I said it was an option while literally saying I’m glad players don’t have to experience it as the norm, an option that the game catered to extremely well and still caters to right now despite being more simplified, and it does it by seemingly being designed like it was some kind of third person shooter that rewarded making alternative builds and playing the game

It’s something you’d normally experience if you stepped outside your few highest-level builds, because once you start building alternatively you start getting closer to experiencing it.

Of course the game never played for you like that because you never tried, despite you acting like you know all about it to the point that when someone who actually only went and did it for years says that it plays out a certain way, you’re like “Nope. Didn’t happen. I should know, I’ve never tried”.

Most of the overwhelming majority of players are not interested in exploring alternatives, and if they did, they’d start seeing that my god, there’s a game under all that grind and all that grind actually ties into and rewards playing the game in multiple ways! Because they’re not interested! Which is fine, but don’t then turn around and tell me what is and isn’t possible when you’ve never tried to see for yourself!

[Merkranire]

33 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because thats empty statement. Thats not how the game plays at all. It is power fantasy, we tear through hordes of enemies within seconds. To play differently you have to intentionaly gimp yourself. There is nothing wrong with playing like that but acting like thats the norm or how it should be is being dishonest at best. For overwhelming majority of players thats not how they even want it.

And even though it’s an option for some long-term player to engage with the game, it’s a lot less so an option for someone just starting, since the game by default is a third person shooter that you don’t just overpower unless you’re perpetually built to be offset higher than the content you’re doing.

You gotta get the stuff in the first place, and because the mod system is built on a “Power comes with a literal cost”, it’s not always so desireable to load up on unnecessary damage and survival when doing content that doesn’t need it but the player is still eating into limited slots and capacity instead of branching out into the alternative customisation that the content would normally allow; if you tried to convince some newbie that it’s always in their best interest to narrow their build options and burn themselves our through grind, they’re just going to experience a game that’s seemingly inconsistently difficult or easy and lacking in ways to customise  

[kuciol]

For newer players new system is a lot better since as you pointed out they didnt have the tools in the first place. They couldnt experiment since they had nothing to experiment with. And you tear through enemies from the very first moment in the game. Thats how power fantasy works.

 

The game is all about grind. Every piece of content, rewards and progression is about farming and getting stuff. You try to make building a loadout more grandious than it is. Your pompous speeches wont bend reality. This other customization is what? More magazine size, silent shooting, less recoil etc. Nothing groundbraking and for the most part useless. And you still can do that, nothing changed. You act like DE flipped everything on their head when the change was very minor when it comes to resistances. All they did is made resistances consistent within faction. Thats the best thing they could do. Now they are logical.

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, kuciol said:

For newer players new system is a lot better since as you pointed out they didnt have the tools in the first place. They couldnt experiment since they had nothing to experiment with. And you tear through enemies from the very first moment in the game. Thats how power fantasy works.

 

The game is all about grind. Every piece of content, rewards and progression is about farming and getting stuff. You try to make building a loadout more grandious than it is. Your pompous speeches wont bend reality. This other customization is what? More magazine size, silent shooting, less recoil etc. Nothing groundbraking and for the most part useless. And you still can do that, nothing changed. You act like DE flipped everything on their head when the change was very minor when it comes to resistances. All they did is made resistances consistent within faction. Thats the best thing they could do. Now they are logical.

The system is ever present as it always was and is almost the same but now sorely lacking in complexity that affects fights on a per-mission basis according to how someone builds and where they take it; newbies are still going to either work with it to do more damage to enemies and require less investment and damage mods to take advantage of the times they can customise more because they’re hitting harder when they bring the right damage types, or they’re going to just load up on damage to build for higher-level content and then jump into lower-level content and not worry about anything, accidentally doing more damage because they accidentally matched colours and doing overpower damage when they accidentally bring the wrong damage types

And yes, the game is about grind, but first and foremost it’s about customising your gameplay using the stuff you earn, which means identifying when you’ve got enough things like damage that then allow you to customise your gameplay for the content you’re doing, which includes utilising options like less recoil, silenced shots, or whatever, and because the damage type system permeated and still permeates every aspect of the game whether you care or not, it potentially influences how players will be building, newbie or not, and because the damage type system has been simplified, the different gameplay experiences available to someone who customises their gameplay are reduced even if they wanted to try and inject some additional complexity into their fights according to how they build and where they take it.

DE could have made the old system more understandable and pruned out some of the excess stuff without sacrificing the ability for those who were interested to experience alternative and potentially more complex gameplay options outside of your limited perspective.

Seriously, I shudder at the conversation you must have with newbies; “Garbage, garbage, useless, garbage, useless”, acting like there’s barely any build or mod or gear in the game worth using just because there’s a modicum of engagement to be found in their use as alternative gameplay options, especially if you’re trying to convince newbies that they need to rush to where you are before they’re allowed to have any sort of you-approved fun

Edited Wednesday at 08:18 AM by Merkranire

[kuciol]

18 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

The system is ever present as it always was and is almost the same but now sorely lacking in complexity that affects fights on a per-mission basis according to how someone builds and where they take it; newbies are still going to either work with it to do more damage to enemies and require less investment and damage mods to take advantage of the times they can customise more because they’re hitting harder when they bring the right damage types, or they’re going to just load up on damage to build for higher-level content and then jump into lower-level content and not worry about anything, accidentally doing more damage because they accidentally matched colours and doing overpower damage when they accidentally bring the wrong damage types

And yes, the game is about grind, but first and foremost it’s about customising your gameplay using the stuff you earn, which means identifying when you’ve got enough things like damage that then allow you to customise your gameplay for the content you’re doing, which includes utilising options like less recoil, silenced shots, or whatever, and because the damage type system permeated and still permeates every aspect of the game whether you care or not, it potentially influences how players will be building, newbie or not, and because the damage type system has been simplified, the different gameplay experiences available to someone who customises their gameplay are reduced even if they wanted to try and inject some additional complexity into their fights according to how they build and where they take it.

DE could have made the old system more understandable and pruned out some of the excess stuff without sacrificing the ability for those who were interested to experience alternative and potentially more complex gameplay options outside of your limited perspective.

Seriously, I shudder at the conversation you must have with newbies; “Garbage, garbage, useless, garbage, useless”, acting like there’s barely any build or mod or gear in the game worth using just because there’s a modicum of engagement to be found in their use as alternative gameplay options, especially if you’re trying to convince newbies that they need to rush to where you are before they’re allowed to have any sort of you-approved fun

Bla bla bla. The options are still there. You know how experiments work in warfame? Google > what damage is the best. Done. Acting like it is any different is silly. What DE did is cut the bloat. Resistances are now consistent, thats all that was changed. You can still do everything you cry about. Did they limit the way you can mod? No. So what is this whole fuss about? That we know what dmg type is good without looking into codex or Wiki? You are so full of yourself that you dont even consider that this information was available all this time, even in game.

I dont understand your problem really. You still can mod however you like, you still can play however you like, the information about resistances was always there. Mods have the same power etc. What was lost is inconsistecy within faction. Nothing more, nothing less.