DE needs to start doing more for old frames

[Joezone619]

whether or not you agree with which frames specifically need help, i think we can all agree that DE isn't doing enough for them fast enough. Pablo is amazing at his reworks, there is no doubt about that, but Pablo alone cannot fix every warframe that needs help, certainly not faster then the rest of DE is making them.

Some frames need more work then others, but there are a lot of frames regardless who aren't doing great.

Major reworks:
-Limbo
-Banshee
-Caliban
-Ivara
-Loki
-Nyx
-Trinity

IMO all these frames need major reworks. The scale may differ, but generally, they all need to have significant changes made to change or revive their playstyles. Most of them go unused, or only used by a niche group of people. Most of them will require entire kit overhauls to bring them up to the same level as newer frames, so long as DE sticks to their original themes.

 

Minor Reworks
-Ash
-Atlas
-Ember
-Equinox
-Frost
-Nova
-Valkyr
-Chroma

These frames need less extreme changes, most of them are still playable, but usually only with 1 or 2 specific strategies. There is little to no build variety between them, and their gameplay has become rather stagnant. Only about 1 or 2 major changes should be enough for these to get back in the game.

 

Tweaks Only
-Excalibur
-Gyre
-Mesa
-Nidus
-Zephyr

For the most part, these frames are fine. They may need a tweak or a bandaid mod to keep them from becoming outdated, but generally they can wait.

 

 

Perfectly Fine
-Baruuk
-Chroma
-Citrine
-Dagath
-Dante
-Gara
-Garuda
-Gauss
-Grendel
-Harrow
-Hildryn
-Hydroid
-Inaros
-Jade
-Khora
-Kullervo
-Lavos
-Mag
-Mirage
-Nekros
-Nezha
-Oberon
-Octavia
-Protea
-Qorvex
-Revenant
-Rhino
-Saryn
-Sevagoth
-Syanax
-Titania
-Vauban
-Volt
-Voruna
-Wisp
-Wukong
-Xaku
-Yareli

All of these frames are perfectly fine, and playable, with little to no issues at all. I only included them here for context as to how many do need help, and how many don't. Generally speaking, these frames are the standard i hold most frames to.

 

And of course it goes without saying, these are all just my opinions on who needs work done. Different people WILL have different opinions, but as i said at the start, i hope we can all agree that DE needs to be doing more to help the frames that need it.

Edited July 3 by Joezone619

[Pakaku]

For what it's worth, I cleared my MR30 test with a crit-sonar Banshee, so while she may not be meta-defining or super OP or anything, I'd still say she's in a better spot than needing a major rework

I'd also say that judging by people on the forums who've shown they can make her work, I wouldn't say Ivara is in need of a major rework either. Niche does not equal bad, especially if they're good at their niche.

[Joezone619]

3 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

For what it's worth, I cleared my MR30 test with a crit-sonar Banshee, so while she may not be meta-defining or super OP or anything, I'd still say she's in a better spot than needing a major rework

I'd also say that judging by people on the forums who've shown they can make her work, I wouldn't say Ivara is in need of a major rework either. Niche does not equal bad, especially if they're good at their niche.

Well, as stated, these are just my opinions on where each frame falls.

Banshee sonar is certainly a good strategy, if i remember her silence can also be useful on finisher builds, but both require specific setups that often limit your options. Not to mention her 1st and 4th are actively useless against anything above level 10.

Ivara too, people CAN make her work, and she may not need as much as the others on that list, but she has big problems too, especially for console players. Her 1st's noise arrow doesn't really do anything, invis arrow kinda pointless considering she has an invis ability (tho decent for allies, i will admit). Her 2nd goes soo fast on most projectiles, any benefit gets spattered on the wall you'll inevitably face plant onto.
Her 4th is cool, but with a spread that large, anything at steel path level will need to be point blank, or you can waste a mod slot and lose punch through at the same time to fix that.

These frames have usages, but they're limited, and not very common anymore.

[Nerthiril]

16 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Perfectly Fine
-Baruuk
-Chroma
-Citrine
-Dagath
-Dante
-Gara
-Garuda
-Gauss
-Grendel
-Harrow
-Hildryn
-Hydroid
-Inaros
-Jade
-Khora
-Kullervo
-Lavos
-Mag
-Mirage
-Nekros
-Nezha
-Oberon
-Octavia
-Protea
-Qorvex
-Revenant
-Rhino
-Saryn
-Sevagoth
-Syanax
-Titania
-Vauban
-Volt
-Voruna
-Wisp
-Wukong
-Xaku
-Yareli

I was pretty much with you until you put chroma on the perfectly fine list. If anything they need minor to major reworks to actually play properly and pretty much nothing except the meta full power str build works at end game (even then the strategies they use for it are often better on any other character (ex glaive power throw (use kullervo) or multiplicative co (use voruna)). They are pretty much only good on niche strategies that require tons of base damage and allowing you to build off meta with not needing primary merciless/deadhead or serration to make guns work. I don't think a frame with only 1 useful ability (vex armor), 1 ability that is only useful conditionally (elemental ward: Cold is only useful pre getting max VA scorn stacks, elec is decent if you play at high enough levels to need shield gating, heat is 50/50 better to use elec, and toxin is only good on eidolons for more damage or if your gun build is so tight you cant fit reload mods on it), 1 ability that is downright useless (spectral scream, only used for swapping elements and does have reason to be not taken off due to the current chroma bug setting you on fire regardless of your emissive), and the final ultimate ability being only used for pt credit doubling and a free subsume in other cases.

They fit perfectly in your description of minor rework (their gameplay has become stale, max out power str with conditional buffs then cast va and keep refreshing it. never caring to cast 1,2, or 4. And 90% of people will play full power str chroma, just what weapons they use will change their builds slightly but not enough to actually differ. Also i am assuming by 1-2 builds work you mean for SP or netracells because pretty much anything works on base chart) 

I main chroma and play voruna often enough to tell that they are nowhere near comparable. Voruna I have 2 different ways to play and both are extremely fun and engaging letting you move around and use your abilities in combination with your weapons to devastate the battlefield with ease. Chroma on the other hand I've tried to make him more support but keep falling back into full power str selfish chroma because other builds drop off hard when I try to use them

16 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

And of course it goes without saying, these are all just my opinions on who needs work done. Different people WILL have different opinions, but as i said at the start, i hope we can all agree that DE needs to be doing more to help the frames that need it.

This we can both agree on. There are so many warframes with different playstyles that people love but cant use properly in end game. Or frames that were great (chroma) getting nuked from orbit from changes made to the game (first taking away vex armor being multiplicative, then removing self damage with only really guardian armor to make up for the massive nerfs they've gotten with no changes to playstyle)

Edited July 3 by Nerthiril

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 16 heures, Joezone619 a dit :

Perfectly Fine
-Baruuk
-Chroma
-Citrine
-Dagath
-Dante
-Gara
-Garuda
-Gauss
-Grendel
-Harrow
-Hildryn
-Hydroid
-Inaros
-Jade
-Khora
-Kullervo
-Lavos
-Mag
-Mirage
-Nekros
-Nezha
-Oberon
-Octavia
-Protea
-Qorvex
-Revenant
-Rhino
-Saryn
-Sevagoth
-Syanax
-Titania
-Vauban
-Volt
-Voruna
-Wisp
-Wukong
-Xaku
-Yareli

All of these frames are perfectly fine, and playable, with little to no issues at all. I only included them here for context as to how many do need help, and how many don't. Generally speaking, these frames are the standard i hold most frames to.

 

You really put Chroma in the "perfectly fine" category. My brother in christ he has only a single functional spell and it's a buff. He needs a major rework, period. Spectral Scream and Effigy simply do not do anything of value in his kit and in the game's sandbox in general, and Elemental feels very WEAK and doesn't really represent well the themes of fire ice toxin and electricity.

Lavos has a horrible gameplay loop and all of his ability aside from his 4th are directional, but his 4 also cannot hit anything vertically.

Speaking of vertical issues, Gara's wall has that very issue.

Rhino's not in a good position either considering that he's only good with his 2 and 3, his spells deal no significant damage and only bring moderate CC.

Titania has a fairly useless buff that scales with nothing, Lantern is horrible at grabbing aggro, and the Diwata cannot use heavy attacks to benefit from Tennokai.

All frames who have a melee exalted weapons are faced with the issue of being unable to equip acolyte mods (blood rush and weeping wounds).

 

Everyone could use some attention, in one way or another, but the most obvious one would be to have every ability that's not an exalted weapon to take into account enemy level in their scaling calculations. It's been working pretty damn well for Xaku's 2 and it should be the standard if DE's planning to do lazy fixes, which they should because that's less time invested for direct good results.

 

[Joezone619]

4 hours ago, Nerthiril said:

I was pretty much with you until you put chroma on the perfectly fine list.

4 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

You really put Chroma in the "perfectly fine" category. My brother in christ he has only a single functional spell and it's a buff.

On second thought, yeah he probably could use a rework. I don't play him often at all, i just remember vex armor op. Moving him to minor reworks cuz his kit is nice, its just weak imo.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 5 heures, Joezone619 a dit :

On second thought, yeah he probably could use a rework. I don't play him often at all, i just remember vex armor op. Moving him to minor reworks cuz his kit is nice, its just weak imo.

I'm not so sure you should be making this sort of list if you do not know the ins and outs of the warframes.

Some have very blatant issues that don't take rocket science to figure out, like how Limbo's entire kit is basically just CC and how it can negatively affect his teammates.

 

I'm not gonna bother going to hard into details, but judging by the fact you've put Ivara in major reworks seem to point out it's also a frame you've not played a whole not if at all. She doesn't have the most appealing kit, to say the least, but there's value to it. The same thing goes with Banshee and Caliban who both share with Ivara a problematic ability (Navigator, Soundquake and Razor Gyre) that works perfectly for their theme but is unfortunately just outright unusable in modern Warframe for their initial respective purposes.

If @Birdframe_Prime was here, word would be out that Zephyr is perfectly fine. And I would agree on that point as well, because Zephyr has a clear use for all four of her abilities but also her passive, no tweaks even needed.

Gyre is as perfect as can be, balanced by virtue of what Electric is in this game, but you put her on the same level as Mesa, who realistically speaking has no abilities outside of her 3 and 4.

 

In the end, what I get out of your list is popularity rather than usability. Frames you've listed as "Perfectly fine" are frames you see on a daily basis, in basically any random public squad, granted most of them will be Revenant Primes because of the atrocity that is Mesmer Skin. The problem is, just because a Warframe is popular doesn't mean it shouldn't be reworked, Chroma's a perfect example of this. Some frames have really powerful single buttons, but if the rest of the kit is hot garbage, something isn't balanced properly, simple enough. Make that list of warframes that come to mind when they have a button so overwhelmingly powerful that it dictates that frame's entire viability, that's the real list.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 3.7.2024 um 02:27 schrieb Joezone619:

whether or not you agree with which frames specifically need help, i think we can all agree that DE isn't doing enough for them fast enough. Pablo is amazing at his reworks, there is no doubt about that, but Pablo alone cannot fix every warframe that needs help, certainly not faster then the rest of DE is making them.

Some frames need more work then others, but there are a lot of frames regardless who aren't doing great.

Major reworks:
-Limbo
-Banshee
-Caliban
-Ivara
-Loki
-Nyx
-Trinity

IMO all these frames need major reworks. The scale may differ, but generally, they all need to have significant changes made to change or revive their playstyles. Most of them go unused, or only used by a niche group of people. Most of them will require entire kit overhauls to bring them up to the same level as newer frames, so long as DE sticks to their original themes.

 

Minor Reworks
-Ash
-Atlas
-Ember
-Equinox
-Frost
-Nova
-Valkyr
-Chroma

These frames need less extreme changes, most of them are still playable, but usually only with 1 or 2 specific strategies. There is little to no build variety between them, and their gameplay has become rather stagnant. Only about 1 or 2 major changes should be enough for these to get back in the game.

 

Tweaks Only
-Excalibur
-Gyre
-Mesa
-Nidus
-Zephyr

For the most part, these frames are fine. They may need a tweak or a bandaid mod to keep them from becoming outdated, but generally they can wait.

 

 

Perfectly Fine
-Baruuk
-Chroma
-Citrine
-Dagath
-Dante
-Gara
-Garuda
-Gauss
-Grendel
-Harrow
-Hildryn
-Hydroid
-Inaros
-Jade
-Khora
-Kullervo
-Lavos
-Mag
-Mirage
-Nekros
-Nezha
-Oberon
-Octavia
-Protea
-Qorvex
-Revenant
-Rhino
-Saryn
-Sevagoth
-Syanax
-Titania
-Vauban
-Volt
-Voruna
-Wisp
-Wukong
-Xaku
-Yareli

All of these frames are perfectly fine, and playable, with little to no issues at all. I only included them here for context as to how many do need help, and how many don't. Generally speaking, these frames are the standard i hold most frames to.

 

And of course it goes without saying, these are all just my opinions on who needs work done. Different people WILL have different opinions, but as i said at the start, i hope we can all agree that DE needs to be doing more to help the frames that need it.

the list is unfortunately not correct at all!

let's take wukong as an example. he only has one useful skill and that is 2nd. 1st skill is ridiculous because we compare the AI of clone and railjack crew member. 3rd - he has enough defense. so why? for certain bosses like hyena it's OK, but otherwise it's pointless. 4th is usually replaced with helmith skill.

or harrow: useful skill set and platform for 3+ builds. but!!! the shards can't be assigned to different builds... because harrow has very different builds for secondary, primary, mele, support etc.

citrin also has its problems because important skill were ruined by buggy los code. And actually you hardly need her in the group

and limbo is actually a very strong defender warframe with top cc. only the people in publics have no idea how his skill set works and don't want to learn anything.

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If @Birdframe_Prime was here, word would be out that Zephyr is perfectly fine. And I would agree on that point as well, because Zephyr has a clear use for all four of her abilities but also her passive, no tweaks even needed.

Eh, she is fine. High A-tier frame for her functions in the current game.

Doesn't mean that tweaks couldn't be made and wouldn't be appreciated. For example, adding 'up and down' to the Hover functions now that we have a really good example of those with Jade (Hildryn can go up and down too, so it's nothing really that special).

I'd say that de-coupling her Tailwind from Duration would be great. Since Duration is a stat that people don't want to dump on Zephyr, and too much definitely adversely affects Tailwind's performance in confined spaces, and adds a huge amount of momentum. I'd re-spec it to Range and Strength, Range for how far the dash travels and Strength for how fast you move with the momentum you have afterwards. So a high Range and low Strength build for her standard spec would have a nice distance travelled, but then slow down afterwards to allow players to adjust their aim, aim-glide or cast something else. Meanwhile an average Range and positive Strength build would let you short-dash and then maintain that momentum for longer.

Another trick would be removing the Animation from Tail Wind so that it doesn't interrupt things like reloads, and so that we can cancel out of it during the acceleration time instead of after the animation ends.

You know, just little things like that would really bring out the mobility functions.

There's always something that can be improved on a Warframe's kit.

I mean, what about if we got a new Tornado augment? Funnel Clouds is great, I love the concentrated damage spam you can do with it, how you can meme-scale Target Fixation whenever there's enemies in range of both the tiny-nados and the impact zone of Dive Bomb, but it's an old, old function. Why not something for new functions? Like... Tornado Link. You can only cast the roving version of Tornado, but any damage dealt to one funnel is pulsed from all three. So you can't ever get the damage-feedback of having all three in the same location with AoE or Punch Through weapons, but you can spread Status and Crit to three completely different locations.

What about a new Passive Augment, where instead of her Low Gravity, it disables the Critical Chance boost, but trades it for a separate damage multiplier on any enemies that are ragdolled, or lifted, by her abilities?

How about... a new one for Air Burst, where it disables the grouping version, but in return massively increases the base damage, and primes all enemies it hits. After 1 second these enemies explode again, dealing a base of 2x the initial hit in a slightly smaller radius, plus a further multiplier for the number of enemies hit. All affected by Strength, so the base damage, the multiplier, and the multiplier from the enemies all gets affected by Strength. Combo with Tornado for the damage amping and watch a Strength Zephyr become some kind of new nuke meta.

Never underestimate the possibilities from a new Augment ^^

[Joezone619]

4 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

the list is unfortunately not correct at all!

I hope not, opinions aren't intended to be correct for false.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Joezone619:

I hope not, opinions aren't intended to be correct for false.

you are wrong here. a claim without evidence is an opinion. that is the case with you.
but if the claim is supported by verifiable evidence. that is the case with me. then it has nothing to do with personal opinion!

i don't care if someone thinks it is snowing even though the sun is shining outside. or if someone thinks it is raining even though there are no clouds in the sky.
just! you can't have a discussion with people like that.

[Ventura_Highway]

While I think every Warframe can work with enough elbow grease, (and I've soloed a SP Zariman extermination with Banshee to assess this firsthand) there are certainly some Warframes that have fallen by the wayside because they take a LOT more elbow grease, yes, and obviously I think somewhat differently of which Warframes are the worst/worse off compared to the list in the OP but the general sentiment holds.

Anecdotally, I stopped playing Destiny 2 partially because it seemed to me that they were throwing classes by the wayside in favour of developing even more classes to have problems with. Logic holding, I should be concerned about some similar pattern holding in Warframe. Balance isn't as much of a priority here, but it is still a consideration and such rot is abominable.

[Zaghyr]

On 2024-07-04 at 4:07 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I mean, what about if we got a new Tornado augment? Funnel Clouds is great, I love the concentrated damage spam you can do with it, how you can meme-scale Target Fixation whenever there's enemies in range of both the tiny-nados and the impact zone of Dive Bomb, but it's an old, old function. Why not something for new functions? Like... Tornado Link. You can only cast the roving version of Tornado, but any damage dealt to one funnel is pulsed from all three. So you can't ever get the damage-feedback of having all three in the same location with AoE or Punch Through weapons, but you can spread Status and Crit to three completely different locations.

This actually sounds awesome, I would love this. And agreed, some more augments would be appreciated. One that I want a lot is to make Turbulence's shield range act like a single tornado, dealing its DPS and IPS status procs, your crits against enemies inside are enhanced and spread like normal, but the 'Tornado' cannot lift enemies or inherit elements. If need this could come at the cost of lowering the base shield range. Another fun one would be summoning funnel cloud tornadoes from Parazon Mercy kills that inherit the element of an eximus. Getting a weapon buff alternate cast to airburst would be nice as well, though we already have airburst rounds for secondaries but still. The possibilities are endless.

[3xt1inct]

On 2024-07-03 at 2:27 AM, Joezone619 said:

whether or not you agree with which frames specifically need help, i think we can all agree that DE isn't doing enough for them fast enough. Pablo is amazing at his reworks, there is no doubt about that, but Pablo alone cannot fix every warframe that needs help, certainly not faster then the rest of DE is making them.

Some frames need more work then others, but there are a lot of frames regardless who aren't doing great.

Major reworks:
-Limbo
-Banshee
-Caliban
-Ivara
-Loki
-Nyx
-Trinity

IMO all these frames need major reworks. The scale may differ, but generally, they all need to have significant changes made to change or revive their playstyles. Most of them go unused, or only used by a niche group of people. Most of them will require entire kit overhauls to bring them up to the same level as newer frames, so long as DE sticks to their original themes.

 

Minor Reworks
-Ash
-Atlas
-Ember
-Equinox
-Frost
-Nova
-Valkyr
-Chroma

These frames need less extreme changes, most of them are still playable, but usually only with 1 or 2 specific strategies. There is little to no build variety between them, and their gameplay has become rather stagnant. Only about 1 or 2 major changes should be enough for these to get back in the game.

 

Tweaks Only
-Excalibur
-Gyre
-Mesa
-Nidus
-Zephyr

For the most part, these frames are fine. They may need a tweak or a bandaid mod to keep them from becoming outdated, but generally they can wait.

 

 

Perfectly Fine
-Baruuk
-Chroma
-Citrine
-Dagath
-Dante
-Gara
-Garuda
-Gauss
-Grendel
-Harrow
-Hildryn
-Hydroid
-Inaros
-Jade
-Khora
-Kullervo
-Lavos
-Mag
-Mirage
-Nekros
-Nezha
-Oberon
-Octavia
-Protea
-Qorvex
-Revenant
-Rhino
-Saryn
-Sevagoth
-Syanax
-Titania
-Vauban
-Volt
-Voruna
-Wisp
-Wukong
-Xaku
-Yareli

All of these frames are perfectly fine, and playable, with little to no issues at all. I only included them here for context as to how many do need help, and how many don't. Generally speaking, these frames are the standard i hold most frames to.

 

And of course it goes without saying, these are all just my opinions on who needs work done. Different people WILL have different opinions, but as i said at the start, i hope we can all agree that DE needs to be doing more to help the frames that need it.

Hey man I'm sorry but i do not agree that baruuk is totally fine to play, with the new armor/health updates factions are no longer have weaknesses to 2 elements (one armor/other one health), but only 1, this means reactive storm's effectiveness was massively nerfed. It is also worth to not that whatever elemental damage you put on desert storm, gets infused into the damage of the damage type the enemy you are facing is weak to, so no this is not fixable with "just put another element on desert storm". This makes it so that he cannot rely on condition overload for his bonus melee damage anymore.  So modding baruuk for strenght to get desert storm to 100% status chance also no longer matters. Desert storm basically lost all the advantages it had over a normal melee weapon. So why would you use it? 

The reactive storm augment was almost essential to play baruuk as it empowered the whole point of his kit. His ult's damage output is nowhere near what it was. He is essentially just a bullet evading cc frame now, which will drop his popularity with more experienced and mid-late game players (read players that play steel path like it is starchart).

He is no longer putting the fist in pacifist, now he is just a pacifist. He has the possibility to be abused by leechers, as with range on evade he can evade bullets with a 360° angle, leechers could just activate evade and run around doing nothing but collecting loot, while not contributing anything else, people afk'ing will now just run around doing nothing having been handed the best way to evade jade eximus lasers  (the eximi put into the game to combat afk/standing still gameplay), by DE themselves in the form of a nerf to the usability of baruuk's kit.

Edited July 6 by 3xt1inct
incomplete and grammatical errors

[deucich]

I wouldn't say any warframe aside from limbo, caliban and equinox is in a need for any significant changes. Though I would welcome some minor tweaks on others, that don't change any core mechanics (like lowering energy consumption for ember recently).

[TalesOfZodiac]

Yes! Equinox representation!!! 

So, There are fun strategies with her, aside from Gloom/Roarquinox, for example Elemental Ward, or even upgrading her sleep to baruuks lull

Things I personally think would help her out tremendously are:

-Change her 4th Ability Augment to be either an Exilus Mod or incorporate it into the 1st or 4th ability as a whole, her 1 encourages you(this is also in the ingame frame tips, I just checked) to switch Forms often but oftentimes you don't want to detonate yet, or in a squad without much support you don't want/need to heal yet. Using a whole mod slot is just rough. Especially because I feel like Equilibrium would be so fun to use on her in tangent with Grimoire's Khra Canticle to increase orb drop chances + Pull from mag or even that one melee that pulls enemies together (though that is a universal orb, might not work on it like that, but is a fun idea for the devs to play around with maybe hopefully)

Also the slash proc doesn't do damage worth a lick of salt and the overshield

- Please for the love of god why do I have to race the enemy to death if I make them vulnerable with Day Form's 2nd ability??? 

 

And most importantly...

Can we PLEASE at least modify each Form's appearance separately? One could do so much with the theme of healers and killers, or similarly entangled themes. It pains me so much that this frame is about balancing light and dark, life and death, support and damage and you can't get the full visual reprensation for it..

Also would be cool to mod each form separately, maybe without being able to switch helminth ability although that'd be cool too, but I can see how this might be difficult or even break balancing a bit

Thanks for coming to my ted talk