Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

They will clamor on that EDA with its random gear choices and heavy restrictions it puts on players is great difficulty, but when asked to "Just apply that to the rest of the game?" and then suddenly "That's not real difficulty!  I want real difficulty!"

It's like if the "difficulty" isn't mandated from the game, and is a choice that the player has to make, then it's not real difficulty and doesn't count and not what they are looking for.

And I have never gotten a straight reason as to why that's the case, and why it must be the game mandating the difficulty for them and everyone else.

Here, some straight answers:

1. Warframe is a cooperative online multiplayer game. Playing with others is a core part of the experience. If the difficulty is decided solely by the players, then the other players you play with can decide to play a different difficulty than you're interested in. If you want more difficulty your teammate can instead say "lol monke slam" or whatever meta-of-the-week is right now and turn the whole mission into a trivial walk. So if you want some challenge you're left with only 3 choices: join the meta and turn the game into a trivial snore too (give up), """play""" follow-the-leader in thrilling missions where you do nothing but walk to extraction (accept it), or stop playing the cooperative online multiplayer game online with other players (go away). None of which fulfill the interest in a challenge for a cooperative online multiplayer game. Worse, this regularly happens even in the areas of the game that are supposed to be challenging. And in general, if you want less difficulty (or more efficiency) the game is perfectly happy letting you hog the entire mission to yourself and not let your teammates have anything left to do - which itself undermines the core cooperative online multiplayer experience. Cooperative gameplay is DE's self-admitted "white whale", and when they don't commit to any sort of standard it's not hard to see why.
2. Warframe is a looter shooter, or a "collectable gear shooter" depending on who you ask. Regardless, you can spend thousands of hours collecting tons of frames and weapons and pets and mods and vehicles and gear to use. So for many the idea of throwing away all of that gear and then choosing not to use it for anything is a non-starter. And for that reason there are many who hate the idea of gear RNG just as much or more than they hate the idea of the game being a pathetically trivial snooze. Some people want a challenge and they want to use all of their gear, so the gear RNG feels to them like a gimped experience. It's a lazy cop-out the same as ideas like "just give the enemies more health".
3. When it comes challenges in general, some players want to feel that their victory is earned: that they used all of the tricks and tools and skills they have acquired and still overcame the challenge stacked against them. And for those players a self-imposed challenge doesn't count. They're given the option of fighting with their eyes closed, both hands behind their backs, and bricks taped to their legs, and while that does make it a greater challenge than before the knowledge that they could just open their eyes undermines everything. They aren't using all of the tricks and tools and skills they've acquired, and that's what they want. Obviously this won't appeal to these players.
4. DE already mandates the difficulty. They are the developers of the game and so they are the sole entity defining the games power ceiling. They decide what mods to add, what stats to give, how many mods you can equip and what they cost, what the mission levels are, how enemies scale, and where mechanics like gear RNG and damage attenuation and adaptation and immunities and so on are applied, etc. And they have been regularly raising the difficulty throughout the game's history. Whether it was early Sorties ("Sortie Missions are difficult endgame Missions for experienced Tenno") or Arbitrations ("A new type of challenge") or Solar Rail Conflicts (a "New End-Game System") or Steel Path ("It is time to take on a new challenge") or Liches ("This system is meant to be challenging. It’s meant to be a threat.") or Archon Hunts ("three missions of increasing difficulty with additional restrictions") or DA ("Deep Archimedea is a weekly challenge") or any of these other multitude examples, DE has constantly tried to create a challenge in this game. And when actually polled and not arbitrarily spoken for, real players regularly say that they do want these kinds of challenges ("Players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content"). I don't know what you'd get from these quotes, but it seems to me that DE mandating difficulty should be expected because they are the ones that have been trying to create a challenge and because ultimately they are the ones that decide what goes into the game.
5. (Edit) And here's another one. Taking off some mods is, mathematically, no different than the enemies having more health. And while having more health might make an enemy more difficult to defeat in an absolute sense, it's not like this gives the enemy more mechanics. A Lancer is still a Lancer. Even if it has 10,000x more health it's still going to behave like a Lancer, and it's going to stand there and shoot at you and maybe throw a grenade but that's it. Giving the Lancer more health doesn't magically make it a more complex enemy to fight. So players who are interested in a mechanical challenge aren't going to get anything out of this. Gimping themselves does nothing to add more mechanical depth to the game. DE is the only entity that can add more mechanical depth to the game, which is something they've been doing a lot of recently with enemies in the Zariman and the Labs. These enemies have a higher starting level and the extra health and damage that comes with it, but they also do more things. And in some modes they actually have the survivability to do their special "thing" and be interesting. And wouldn't you know? "When we measure performance of updates, Whispers in the Wall was one of our best performing updates of all time by every metric."

And note that I keep saying some players. That is because there are many people who want many different things. If two people asking for a challenge don't ask for the same things that isn't some gotcha contradiction, it just means different people want to achieve the same thing in different ways.

Edited August 11 by PublikDomain

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 4thBro:

^ This last quote was IN RESPONSE to YOUR post that tried to claim I was straw manning. Isn't that wild? YOU tried to say I was misrepresenting the opposing point when I said people are telling me to put away my loot, and then THIS guy REPLIED TO YOU and mocked my refusal to put away my loot as per many people's suggestions.

THAT'S WILD! You guys are SO DISINGENUOUS!!!!

And this is just me searching the word "mods" within this thread. I'm positive I missed at least a few more posts to quote.

at least for me it's completely taken out of context. you won't get very far with that.
and further down I've even explained in detail why that's actually a good thing. all without embarrassing teenage emotions and other nonsense.

so what are you trying to achieve with that? this isn't the first time you've gotten personal with wild emotions. if I see that you're continuing to provoke, then welcome to ignore. because this is a discussion forum and not a trash talk TV show.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

 

I get ya...

So, what would that actually look like though?

DE went the simplest possible (imo) route with how SP got implemented and they still had to deal with tons of complaints and were obliged to scale up power to suit.

Players spent years theorycrafting on this specific ask (when nerfs weren't been ridiculously herded) and here's a couple the ones I remember.

• Hard mode meant a change to something where the  mob was scaled up to match the players simulated level based on their mods (this would be a metric ton of work on the mod side).
• Hard mode meant players can only do X% of damage per hit regardless of the damage amount done.

There were a bunch of ideas (some nifty and some were bleh) but I am curious about what your specific idea to resolve the issue would be aside from ideological considerations.

 

[4thBro]

I'm not embarrassed to show emotions, lol. I'm not a robot.

But my emotions are also irrelevant. All they're doing is adding spice to the points I'm making. If you want it dry, I could redeliver the summary here:

 

- Some people told me to take off my gear if I want a challenge.

- I told them that's counter-intuitive to the game being considered a "looter shooter," as it was labeled by them; their words.

- They told me I was straw manning them, that they never said for me to take off my gear.

- So I quoted many, many posts that directly told me to take off my gear.

 

That's the context. Do you see why it upset me? Do you see why I showed emotions? I've been dealing with this for 10 pages. Not even clever or subtle fallacies. Just shameless, blatant ones.

If you think I'm the bad guy, if you think I've gotten personal, if I'm the one you want to put on ignore, then whatever. The whole picture is here for everyone to see. I can't help it if some people don't want to look at it.

 

23 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

because this is a discussion forum and not a trash talk TV show.

This might be a discussion forum, but as I've pointed out... This was never a discussion.

 

Again, as I've pointed out... This was made abundantly clear when somebody saying they wouldn't play a game mode that I suggested was considered me being trashed on.

It's not a discussion at that point. It's a game for them. A battle. Something that they need to try to win.

People that say No to endgame, if you've noticed, aren't really saying why, or what harm it would do for them. They're just gatekeeping, for private personal reasons in their head that aren't being shared. Is that what you consider a valid discussion?

 

Surely you see the inconsistencies. Everywhere.

 

If somebody says... "I wish Ash could get a buff," people say, "YEAH, I agree, great idea, let's forward this message to DE. Buff Ash, please!"

If somebody says, "I would love a Frame that uses the element of nature," people say, "YEAH, I agree, we've needed this for years! Great thread!"

But if somebody says, "Warframe needs a challenging endgame," people say, "WELL hold on, what do you mean by that, exactly?!? Can you write us a paper on what you mean? If you don't have all the details written out, you hardly have an idea there at all. And what if I wouldn't play it? If I wouldn't play it, then it's probably not worth it for DE to implement."

 

It's just a totally different tune, for no given reason.

If a small minority of people even care about Ash, doesn't matter. Still a good idea to buff him.

If a small minority of people would even play a nature-based Frame, still a great idea, no emphasis required, no abilities or physical design needed.

But if we talk about endgame... the whole forum collapses on you. And they literally say things like, "Nobody wants this, and I'm tired of telling people this in all the threads that keep showing up."

 

The whole thing is tainted, man. It just doesn't add up.

Surely, you see this.

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

DE went the simplest possible (imo) route with how SP got implemented and they still had to deal with tons of complaints and were obliged to scale up power to suit.

Ahh, but they didn't HAVE to do it.

Steel Path is there. Are you strong enough to do it?

Yes = Do it.

No = Don't do it. And, if you want to do it, get stronger to do it.

 

The complaint, to me, seems like it comes from a place of wanting the maximum possible rewards, but not wanting to be good enough to earn them. And, I ask... is that what we want to cater to???

 

4 minutes ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

There were a bunch of ideas (some nifty and some were bleh) but I am curious about what your specific idea to resolve the issue would be aside from ideological considerations.

It's true that the specific details on how to do it are hard to come up with. And in truth, I'm not going to sit here and try to concoct something. I don't get paid to do so. And even additionally to that, companies often purposely avoid ideas that players have, because they don't want to run into any issues like, "Hey, that was my idea, I should get paid." This is a common practice of game developers. And, again, if nothing else... F that, I don't get paid, why sit here and waste my day coming up with some perfect idea that a bunch of gatekeepers are gonna pick apart with fallacies anyway?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard, "You're wrong, but it's not worth my time to say why."

 

Well, it's not worth my time to come up with a 50 page report on what I think the perfect endgame looks like. Because, even if I did come up with an undisputable perfect endgame, that literally all parties look at and say, "This is indeed perfection..."

DE isn't going to pick it up and decide to do it.

They won't even see it lying on the table, if we're being honest.

So why write the report?

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb 4thBro:

- Some people told me to take off my gear if I want a challenge.

- I told them that's counter-intuitive to the game being considered a "looter shooter," as it was labeled by them; their words.

- They told me I was straw manning them, that they never said for me to take off my gear.

- So I quoted many, many posts that directly told me to take off my gear.

That's just how a discussion works. There are different points of view and they are published here. They are often supported by arguments or even facts.

And nobody is forcing you to do it. It's just a suggestion. Because maybe the author would use this solution in such a situation.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Ahh, but they didn't HAVE to do it.

Steel Path is there. Are you strong enough to do it?

Yes = Do it.

No = Don't do it. And, if you want to do it, get stronger to do it.

But they did do it— So the ideological question is irrelevant in that you don't need to guess where DE's head is on the matter.
The real question is what you are going to do with that knowledge.
 

3 hours ago, 4thBro said:

The complaint, to me, seems like it comes from a place of wanting the maximum possible rewards, but not wanting to be good enough to earn them. And, I ask... is that what we want to cater to???

That's absolutely no different from wanting maximum possible challenges without being willing to remove some of the power Tenno have modded in over time.

You've essentially argued against your own point...
 

3 hours ago, 4thBro said:

It's true that the specific details on how to do it are hard to come up with. And in truth, I'm not going to sit here and try to concoct something. I don't get paid to do so. And even additionally to that, companies often purposely avoid ideas that players have, because they don't want to run into any issues like, "Hey, that was my idea, I should get paid." This is a common practice of game developers. And, again, if nothing else... F that, I don't get paid, why sit here and waste my day coming up with some perfect idea that a bunch of gatekeepers are gonna pick apart with fallacies anyway?

Fair enough.
That said, we know that DE has taken player ideas and sentiments on numerous occasions in the past and can't imagine they would turn down a good idea just because they didn't have it first. 
SP, itself, literally came from players petitioning to have a hard mode for years (and years...) I know this because I was in those threads as one of the Tenno doing the petitioning.

Likewise, I don't think the ideas/feedback forums allow for a lot of bickering that isn't entirely fact based because they actually read those.
Also, another one of those things they gave players after repeated requests to keep ideas from getting lost in the wildfires of General Discussion...

I could be wrong about the bickering part though as I don't take part in conversations as much as I used to.

 

[MrDugan]

On 2024-08-10 at 3:39 AM, Xiothin said:

Steel Path is usually difficult for first-timers, New War can be difficult for first timers.

The problem is that very little is actually gated off in any real capacity.  You can have low hours, low experience and low MR, low whatever.  But you can go on youtube, look up everything you need to make a completely idiot proof build to speed run SP, target farm those things, or just buy them off other people with plat, and/or get carried until you have your gear, and then boom.  "Game too easy."  Take the meta gear off and try again.  There's also just a lot of luggage in this game.  People will act like they're good, but they're honestly just getting carried through everything.  There used to be someone in my clan that was always talking about how easy the game was and how good they were, and they quit because they got locked into TNW and couldn't handle any of it.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Here, some straight answers:

1. Warframe is a cooperative online multiplayer game. Playing with others is a core part of the experience. If the difficulty is decided solely by the players, then the other players you play with can decide to play a different difficulty than you're interested in. If you want more difficulty your teammate can instead say "lol monke slam" or whatever meta-of-the-week is right now and turn the whole mission into a trivial walk. So if you want some challenge you're left with only 3 choices: join the meta and turn the game into a trivial snore too (give up), """play""" follow-the-leader in thrilling missions where you do nothing but walk to extraction (accept it), or stop playing the cooperative online multiplayer game online with other players (go away). None of which fulfill the interest in a challenge for a cooperative online multiplayer game. Worse, this regularly happens even in the areas of the game that are supposed to be challenging. And in general, if you want less difficulty (or more efficiency) the game is perfectly happy letting you hog the entire mission to yourself and not let your teammates have anything left to do - which itself undermines the core cooperative online multiplayer experience. Cooperative gameplay is DE's self-admitted "white whale", and when they don't commit to any sort of standard it's not hard to see why.
2. Warframe is a looter shooter, or a "collectable gear shooter" depending on who you ask. Regardless, you can spend thousands of hours collecting tons of frames and weapons and pets and mods and vehicles and gear to use. So for many the idea of throwing away all of that gear and then choosing not to use it for anything is a non-starter. And for that reason there are many who hate the idea of gear RNG just as much or more than they hate the idea of the game being a pathetically trivial snooze. Some people want a challenge and they want to use all of their gear, so the gear RNG feels to them like a gimped experience. It's a lazy cop-out the same as ideas like "just give the enemies more health".
3. When it comes challenges in general, some players want to feel that their victory is earned: that they used all of the tricks and tools and skills they have acquired and still overcame the challenge stacked against them. And for those players a self-imposed challenge doesn't count. They're given the option of fighting with their eyes closed, both hands behind their backs, and bricks taped to their legs, and while that does make it a greater challenge than before the knowledge that they could just open their eyes undermines everything. They aren't using all of the tricks and tools and skills they've acquired, and that's what they want. Obviously this won't appeal to these players.
4. DE already mandates the difficulty. They are the developers of the game and so they are the sole entity defining the games power ceiling. They decide what mods to add, what stats to give, how many mods you can equip and what they cost, what the mission levels are, how enemies scale, and where mechanics like gear RNG and damage attenuation and adaptation and immunities and so on are applied, etc. And they have been regularly raising the difficulty throughout the game's history. Whether it was early Sorties ("Sortie Missions are difficult endgame Missions for experienced Tenno") or Arbitrations ("A new type of challenge") or Solar Rail Conflicts (a "New End-Game System") or Steel Path ("It is time to take on a new challenge") or Liches ("This system is meant to be challenging. It’s meant to be a threat.") or Archon Hunts ("three missions of increasing difficulty with additional restrictions") or DA ("Deep Archimedea is a weekly challenge") or any of these other multitude examples, DE has constantly tried to create a challenge in this game. And when actually polled and not arbitrarily spoken for, real players regularly say that they do want these kinds of challenges ("Players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content"). I don't know what you'd get from these quotes, but it seems to me that DE mandating difficulty should be expected because they are the ones that have been trying to create a challenge and because ultimately they are the ones that decide what goes into the game.
5. (Edit) And here's another one. Taking off some mods is, mathematically, no different than the enemies having more health. And while having more health might make an enemy more difficult to defeat in an absolute sense, it's not like this gives the enemy more mechanics. A Lancer is still a Lancer. Even if it has 10,000x more health it's still going to behave like a Lancer, and it's going to stand there and shoot at you and maybe throw a grenade but that's it. Giving the Lancer more health doesn't magically make it a more complex enemy to fight. So players who are interested in a mechanical challenge aren't going to get anything out of this. Gimping themselves does nothing to add more mechanical depth to the game. DE is the only entity that can add more mechanical depth to the game, which is something they've been doing a lot of recently with enemies in the Zariman and the Labs. These enemies have a higher starting level and the extra health and damage that comes with it, but they also do more things. And in some modes they actually have the survivability to do their special "thing" and be interesting. And wouldn't you know? "When we measure performance of updates, Whispers in the Wall was one of our best performing updates of all time by every metric."

And note that I keep saying some players. That is because there are many people who want many different things. If two people asking for a challenge don't ask for the same things that isn't some gotcha contradiction, it just means different people want to achieve the same thing in different ways.

1) one could argue that power fantasy is a core part of the game just as easily as you're arguing coop is a core part of the game. While the solutions you list might not be ideal to YOU, what about the people who like it the way it is? It the nerf herders had their way everyone would be forced to play the same way at least now all sides of the spectrum have options, even if playing solo or with like minded people is apparently too much of a cross to bear.

2) warframe is a "looter shooter" and you spend all this time collecting farming and upgrading stuff and the idea of "not using it" for a challenge is supposedly a non starter but DE nerfing everything into the ground is somehow totally different even if the end result is the same. 

It's laughable.

3) meanwhile there's plenty of people that *like* feeling like an ultimate badass. They *like* feeling like the time and effort they put into the game has paid off by making them feel powerful. People like you are like vegans going to restaurants and shaming people for enjoying meat. 

Then there's the issue that "challenging" isn't always FUN just because it's challenging. Something being made difficult just for the sake or being difficult can very easily just be annoying.

And I'll keep saying it.

"The knowledge that they can just open their eyes undermines everything." Is a laughable L take.

If I blindfold myself it doesn't count but if DE blindfolds me than it is True and Good Game Design. Nevermind the result is the same.

4) yeah and it seems like so far DE doesn't agree with the nerf herders, or at the least will never be able to appease them.

I've seen the same people crying and whining about everything they've done.

"No no. We want REAL difficulty". Whatever that means.

5) this touches on the other point.

Nobody can agree on what "real difficulty" is and even if they could, not everyone wants that. 

A Lancer is still a Lancer, regardless of if it has 20 ehp or 2 billion ehp. Regardless of it does 20 dps or 2 billion.

So what are they supposed to do, add layers of mechanics just because? Just to make lancers more "challenging" to deal with?

Okay so now we gotta hop on one leg three times and light a 2 dollar bill on fire and get a letter from Obama just to make a Lancer go away what if people don't find that more "fun" they just find it more tedious and annoying.

 

Oh right. F em.

 

Because nerf herders have formed their own quasi religion about The One True Valid and Good Game Design and anyone who disagrees with their subjective personal feelings is wrong and no amount of head banging against a wall will ever change that.

[PublikDomain]

41 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

what about the people who like it the way it is?

So keep playing the easy content you prefer. There will always be that kind of easy content for you to... whatever it is you do. But there can be harder content too, and there is quite an audience for it! After all, "when we measure performance of updates, Whispers in the Wall was one of our best performing updates of all time by every metric." Huh!

41 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

warframe is a "looter shooter" and you spend all this time collecting farming and upgrading stuff and the idea of "not using it" for a challenge is supposedly a non starter but DE nerfing everything into the ground is somehow totally different even if the end result is the same. 

The end result is not the same. In the former, you spend all this time collecting, farming, and upgrading stuff only to not use 90% of it because 90% of it is hot steamy garbage. But if DE nerfed everything into the ground (or buffed everything into orbit that's cool too and kinda their current direction) then as long as everything ends up the same place everything would be equal. Everything could be equally good! But that scares you for some reason :( Because from what I've gathered in my other "discussions" with you on this topic if 90% of the game isn't a steamy pile of garbage how can you tell that you're a big strong boy??? A real conundrum.

41 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

meanwhile there's plenty of people that *like* feeling like an ultimate badass.

Meanwhile in the real world "players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content". Sorry that doesn't conform with your idea of being a "badass" killing ants with a magnifying glass. But low level content will always be there for you! Go get 'em, tiger!

41 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

yeah and it seems like so far DE doesn't agree with the nerf herders, or at the least will never be able to appease them.

I'm not sure how you read a big list of challenges DE's tried to add and concluded that DE doesn't actually want to add challenges? Then why do they keep doing it? And newsflash: DE nerfs you anyways. They just blend it up and do it quietly via mechanics like gear RNG and Damage Attenuation so you won't notice. And it works!

41 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

So what are they supposed to do, add layers of mechanics just because? Just to make lancers more "challenging" to deal with?

Yes. It's literally what they just did when creating the Murmur faction so idk why "the thing DE has recently done" is so confusing to you. They just did this. 🤷‍♀️

Edited August 12 by PublikDomain

[4thBro]

4 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

That's just how a discussion works. There are different points of view and they are published here.

Look below your post now. Do you see what "points of view" are being made known? Do you see what "discussion" is taking place?

 

1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

That's absolutely no different from wanting maximum possible challenges without being willing to remove some of the power Tenno have modded in over time.

You've essentially argued against your own point...

This guy thinks I contradicted myself because I don't want to remove my gear to formulate a player-enforced challenge. How do I even continue a conversation with that?

 

51 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

But you can go on youtube, look up everything you need to make a completely idiot proof build to speed run SP, target farm those things, or just buy them off other people with plat, and/or get carried until you have your gear, and then boom.  "Game too easy."  Take the meta gear off and try again.

This guy thinks you need Youtube and abusive meta items to figure out that stacking different multipliers, instead of stacking four 90% ele mods for "big sheet damage," provides the best results.

Warframe's arsenal skills are acquired in high school algebra.

How do I continue a conversation with this guy?

 

33 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

1) one could argue that power fantasy is a core part of the game just as easily as you're arguing coop is a core part of the game. While the solutions you list might not be ideal to YOU, what about the people who like it the way it is? It the nerf herders had their way everyone would be forced to play the same way at least now all sides of the spectrum have options, even if playing solo or with like minded people is apparently too much of a cross to bear.

And one could argue that petting your Kavat in your spaceship is a core part of the game. People are allowed to argue anything. This guy just keep saying "nerf herders" like it's the new political buzzword. I have absolutely no clue what it even means. I'm pretty sure it's been used to label me, as well, even though I've never advocated to nerf anything. In fact, I've been saying No to self-imposed nerfing on myself just for an artificial challenge, and I'm advocating to BUFF the enemies. Not sure where the "nerf herder" thing is coming from.

I'm asking for a game mode that this guy doesn't even have to participate in. And I'm pretty sure I've said this, literally, at least 7 times so far. But this guy doesn't care about that fact. He just wants to spam "nerf herder" and intentionally misrepresent what his opposition is saying.

How do I continue a conversation with this guy???

 

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

3) meanwhile there's plenty of people that *like* feeling like an ultimate badass. They *like* feeling like the time and effort they put into the game has paid off by making them feel powerful. People like you are like vegans going to restaurants and shaming people for enjoying meat. 

Then there's the issue that "challenging" isn't always FUN just because it's challenging. Something being made difficult just for the sake or being difficult can very easily just be annoying.

And I'll keep saying it.

"The knowledge that they can just open their eyes undermines everything." Is a laughable L take.

If I blindfold myself it doesn't count but if DE blindfolds me than it is True and Good Game Design. Nevermind the result is the same.

This guy is even so close to arguing on the same side as mine. But then he always takes a forced turn.

If you want to feel powerful, why not farm Earth missions? I would legitimately ask this guy that question. But we know he won't answer it. Because THE answer is: "I don't farm Earth missions because it's too easy. Enemies need to be strong for my victory to mean anything."

And because that's THE only possible answer, he won't answer it. He'll say a lot of things, he'll flail around a lot, and squirm about. But WHATEVER he does, he will NOT answer that question.

So how do I continue a conversation with this guy?

 

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

4) yeah and it seems like so far DE doesn't agree with the nerf herders, or at the least will never be able to appease them.

I've seen the same people crying and whining about everything they've done.

"No no. We want REAL difficulty". Whatever that means.

This is just some random flak cannon pellets.

Closed up by the ever-ongoing push that, if you don't have a 50 page essay on what you want for an endgame, you must have no idea what it is that you want.

How do I have a conversation with this guy???

 

46 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Nobody can agree on what "real difficulty" is and even if they could, not everyone wants that. 

Not everyone wants anything.

Not everyone wants Railjacks.

Archwings.

Duviri.

Liches.

Sisters.

Etc.

But, for some unseen reason, this argument is only valid when talking about adding an endgame to Warframe.

Clearly another fallacy.

How do I have a conversation off of that??

All of these points have been driven into the ground, and their logical holes have been pointed out over a dozen times.

But they keep coming back, without a single scratch on their armor.

How do I have a conversation with that???

 

50 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Because nerf herders have formed their own quasi religion about The One True Valid and Good Game Design and anyone who disagrees with their subjective personal feelings is wrong and no amount of head banging against a wall will ever change that.

And again. For the millionth time. Not a SINGLE PERSON in favor of an endgame is saying it needs to be intrusive to anyone else's gameplay. I myself have even suggested that it offer ABSOLUTELY no rewards whatsoever, so that bad players don't have to feel like they're missing out on anything.

But... just like EVERYTHING else... it doesn't matter.

It. Simply. Does. Not. Matter.

So how do I have a conversation with this???

 

Seriously, man. Tell me. Maybe I'm just completely socially inept. But I have NO IDEA how to have a conversation with these guys.

 

1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

5 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Ahh, but they didn't HAVE to do it.

Steel Path is there. Are you strong enough to do it?

Yes = Do it.

No = Don't do it. And, if you want to do it, get stronger to do it.

But they did do it— So the ideological question is irrelevant in that you don't need to guess where DE's head is on the matter.
The real question is what you are going to do with that knowledge.

Honestly, though, this was MY bad. I misunderstood what you said. I thought you said players complained that they had to scale up their power to partake in Steel Path. But what you said was that DE had to scale up Steel Path's power to catch up to the players.

 

If that's true, then looking back at it, Steel Path musta been pretty weak. Because it's weak as it is right now, and this is after the scale-up?? I can only say, good thing they did tone it up.

Reminds me of when Arbies came out. I loved going into Survivals to see how I'd do compared to other players. I found it kinda embarrassing when people would die in 5 minutes or less... I felt like the clearance to even get INTO them should ensure that you kind of knew what you were doing. Maybe most people just got carried into entry?

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

1) one could argue that power fantasy is a core part of the game just as easily as you're arguing coop is a core part of the game. While the solutions you list might not be ideal to YOU, what about the people who like it the way it is? It the nerf herders had their way everyone would be forced to play the same way at least now all sides of the spectrum have options, even if playing solo or with like minded people is apparently too much of a cross to bear.

2) warframe is a "looter shooter" and you spend all this time collecting farming and upgrading stuff and the idea of "not using it" for a challenge is supposedly a non starter but DE nerfing everything into the ground is somehow totally different even if the end result is the same. 

It's laughable.

3) meanwhile there's plenty of people that *like* feeling like an ultimate badass. They *like* feeling like the time and effort they put into the game has paid off by making them feel powerful. People like you are like vegans going to restaurants and shaming people for enjoying meat. 

Then there's the issue that "challenging" isn't always FUN just because it's challenging. Something being made difficult just for the sake or being difficult can very easily just be annoying.

And I'll keep saying it.

"The knowledge that they can just open their eyes undermines everything." Is a laughable L take.

If I blindfold myself it doesn't count but if DE blindfolds me than it is True and Good Game Design. Nevermind the result is the same.

4) yeah and it seems like so far DE doesn't agree with the nerf herders, or at the least will never be able to appease them.

I've seen the same people crying and whining about everything they've done.

"No no. We want REAL difficulty". Whatever that means.

5) this touches on the other point.

Nobody can agree on what "real difficulty" is and even if they could, not everyone wants that. 

A Lancer is still a Lancer, regardless of if it has 20 ehp or 2 billion ehp. Regardless of it does 20 dps or 2 billion.

So what are they supposed to do, add layers of mechanics just because? Just to make lancers more "challenging" to deal with?

Okay so now we gotta hop on one leg three times and light a 2 dollar bill on fire and get a letter from Obama just to make a Lancer go away what if people don't find that more "fun" they just find it more tedious and annoying.

 

Oh right. F em.

 

Because nerf herders have formed their own quasi religion about The One True Valid and Good Game Design and anyone who disagrees with their subjective personal feelings is wrong and no amount of head banging against a wall will ever change that.

Also the irony of the """ultimate badass""" being scared of a challenge isn't lost on me. lol, "ultimate badass". lmao even.

[dwqrf]

It's always funny to see a bunch of kids finding a flat ball on a beach and suddenly thinking "I'm a pro soccer player". Y'all assume how hard is Warframe without actually daring facing the difficulty. Let me elaborate :

Warframe is a looter shooter with a lot of mecanismes. Every single day, people come on the forums or google guides to find "how to mod, how to polarise, what's mastery rank, what's this or that mission type", and even when they find their own generic understanding of "what's the game about", they can't see the big picture due to a general lack of knowledge. Mastering the knowledge allows you to make better combinaison of tools to be stronger, more performant, and quicker into realizing your objectives. And now you are there, players stuck between MR15 and LR4 thinking "I'm overpowered so I guess I beat the game". Well, it never was about clearing the content once, but hundreds of time if not thousands.

Warframe is a looter shooter with a lot of collectibles. I can easily assume that 99.99% of you guys actually stopped farming because it was "useless", it was about spending time trying to drop things that you don't consider worth your time. We could talk about MR fodder, sure, which is a tiny part of the game, but I mainly talk about codex scans ; kuria, somachord, frame fragments and such ; mods collection, including conclave mods ; codex scans ; ephemeras ; 60% Lich weapons ; maxing out all arcanes ; cosmetics from everysingle vendors in the game, including relay, syndicats, open Worlds NPCs ; codex scans, and so many things, not forgetting codex scans. Y'all think "this is not endgame and it's just a time sink"... Well, like the rest of the game. You dare thinking "It's easy, just bring Helios" and ho boy, you have no idea how wrong you can be. You have no idea how hard it is to actually spawn some extremely rare rooms or enemies to complete the entries. You don't need to impose yourself useless challenges like playing blindfolded while you actually didn't even farm the game to its existing and designed end. Warframe is a game where difficulty could be perceived at first as "damage vs level" or later "knowledge vs complexity" but actually, Warframe difficulty lies in discipline, in time spent to max syndicat over and over again, to collect daily rewards, to farm token to spend over time, to expand and master the overall arsenal, and to pray rng running thousands of missions to loot (and scan) things ad vitam eternam for most players because they will never ever truly see the end of it, and will give up with a self-pat on the shoulder telling themselves "It's fine, I finished it, it wasn't so hard. Big numbers go brr". Ha !

None of you are willing to spend thousands of hours farming the game (with guides, or 10k+++ hours without guides), to try to get "everything" and you claim knowing how hard it is to "finish the game". There is a endgame, you just don't want to see it, to face it, and to engage with it.

Let me tell you : y'all didn't even scratch the surface.

You would argue that difficulty is about "skill and reflexe" above time spent and rng ; fair enough, then I dare any of you to finish Wyrmius. Ho wait, you can't, because it's too hard and you don't want to spend your time becoming better at it.

The end of the game is the one your set yourself by default because you aren't going to reach the designed end anyways.

 

Edited August 12 by dwqrf

[MrDugan]

1 hour ago, 4thBro said:

This guy thinks you need Youtube and abusive meta items to figure out that stacking different multipliers, instead of stacking four 90% ele mods for "big sheet damage," provides the best results.

Warframe's arsenal skills are acquired in high school algebra.

How do I continue a conversation with this guy?

You can miss me with all your condescending nonsense.  You aren't continuing anything because I wasn't talking to you.  You have zero reading comprehension which is WHY I wasn't talking to you.

[4thBro]

16 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

your condescending nonsense.

 

16 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

You have zero reading comprehension

 

So true, bestie.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Also the irony of the """ultimate badass""" being scared of a challenge isn't lost on me. lol, "ultimate badass". lmao even.

I think you need to look into something called hooked on phonics and then go back and reread what I said because apparently you missed something. The irony that you probably thought this was oh-so clever isn't lost on me. Lol. Lmao even.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Look below your post now. Do you see what "points of view" are being made known? Do you see what "discussion" is taking place?

 

This guy thinks I contradicted myself because I don't want to remove my gear to formulate a player-enforced challenge. How do I even continue a conversation with that?

 

This guy thinks you need Youtube and abusive meta items to figure out that stacking different multipliers, instead of stacking four 90% ele mods for "big sheet damage," provides the best results.

Warframe's arsenal skills are acquired in high school algebra.

How do I continue a conversation with this guy?

 

And one could argue that petting your Kavat in your spaceship is a core part of the game. People are allowed to argue anything. This guy just keep saying "nerf herders" like it's the new political buzzword. I have absolutely no clue what it even means. I'm pretty sure it's been used to label me, as well, even though I've never advocated to nerf anything. In fact, I've been saying No to self-imposed nerfing on myself just for an artificial challenge, and I'm advocating to BUFF the enemies. Not sure where the "nerf herder" thing is coming from.

I'm asking for a game mode that this guy doesn't even have to participate in. And I'm pretty sure I've said this, literally, at least 7 times so far. But this guy doesn't care about that fact. He just wants to spam "nerf herder" and intentionally misrepresent what his opposition is saying.

How do I continue a conversation with this guy???

 

This guy is even so close to arguing on the same side as mine. But then he always takes a forced turn.

If you want to feel powerful, why not farm Earth missions? I would legitimately ask this guy that question. But we know he won't answer it. Because THE answer is: "I don't farm Earth missions because it's too easy. Enemies need to be strong for my victory to mean anything."

And because that's THE only possible answer, he won't answer it. He'll say a lot of things, he'll flail around a lot, and squirm about. But WHATEVER he does, he will NOT answer that question.

So how do I continue a conversation with this guy?

 

This is just some random flak cannon pellets.

Closed up by the ever-ongoing push that, if you don't have a 50 page essay on what you want for an endgame, you must have no idea what it is that you want.

How do I have a conversation with this guy???

 

Not everyone wants anything.

Not everyone wants Railjacks.

Archwings.

Duviri.

Liches.

Sisters.

Etc.

But, for some unseen reason, this argument is only valid when talking about adding an endgame to Warframe.

Clearly another fallacy.

How do I have a conversation off of that??

All of these points have been driven into the ground, and their logical holes have been pointed out over a dozen times.

But they keep coming back, without a single scratch on their armor.

How do I have a conversation with that???

 

And again. For the millionth time. Not a SINGLE PERSON in favor of an endgame is saying it needs to be intrusive to anyone else's gameplay. I myself have even suggested that it offer ABSOLUTELY no rewards whatsoever, so that bad players don't have to feel like they're missing out on anything.

But... just like EVERYTHING else... it doesn't matter.

It. Simply. Does. Not. Matter.

So how do I have a conversation with this???

 

Seriously, man. Tell me. Maybe I'm just completely socially inept. But I have NO IDEA how to have a conversation with these guys.

 

Honestly, though, this was MY bad. I misunderstood what you said. I thought you said players complained that they had to scale up their power to partake in Steel Path. But what you said was that DE had to scale up Steel Path's power to catch up to the players.

 

If that's true, then looking back at it, Steel Path musta been pretty weak. Because it's weak as it is right now, and this is after the scale-up?? I can only say, good thing they did tone it up.

Reminds me of when Arbies came out. I loved going into Survivals to see how I'd do compared to other players. I found it kinda embarrassing when people would die in 5 minutes or less... I felt like the clearance to even get INTO them should ensure that you kind of knew what you were doing. Maybe most people just got carried into entry?

It's like your on a mission to make reading your posts as painful as possible. I mean what are you doing? Narrating to yourself? 

Do you do this when you address people IRL? 

"This guy (string of straw man's and general silliness)".

Anyway.

Dude if you have some grand idea about a "true endgame" mode to add to the game by all means let's hear it. 

Better yet go make your own thread and share your brilliant suggestions with the world.

But if I had 1p for every time somebody bashed the game for "not having endgame" then proceeded to not offer anything remotely constructive or sit there and throw a fit about how everything that has been done or attempted so far isn't good enough id own every riven in trade chat. 

It's like a child throwing a fit because "they want chicken nuggies" then when someone tries to give them chicken nuggets they throw the plate across the room and say NO I WANT CHICKEN NUGGIES. 

Let's start with that before I even respond to anything else from you.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

So keep playing the easy content you prefer. There will always be that kind of easy content for you to... whatever it is you do. But there can be harder content too, and there is quite an audience for it! After all, "when we measure performance of updates, Whispers in the Wall was one of our best performing updates of all time by every metric." Huh!

The end result is not the same. In the former, you spend all this time collecting, farming, and upgrading stuff only to not use 90% of it because 90% of it is hot steamy garbage. But if DE nerfed everything into the ground (or buffed everything into orbit that's cool too and kinda their current direction) then as long as everything ends up the same place everything would be equal. Everything could be equally good! But that scares you for some reason :( Because from what I've gathered in my other "discussions" with you on this topic if 90% of the game isn't a steamy pile of garbage how can you tell that you're a big strong boy??? A real conundrum.

Meanwhile in the real world "players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content". Sorry that doesn't conform with your idea of being a "badass" killing ants with a magnifying glass. But low level content will always be there for you! Go get 'em, tiger!

I'm not sure how you read a big list of challenges DE's tried to add and concluded that DE doesn't actually want to add challenges? Then why do they keep doing it? And newsflash: DE nerfs you anyways. They just blend it up and do it quietly via mechanics like gear RNG and Damage Attenuation so you won't notice. And it works!

Yes. It's literally what they just did when creating the Murmur faction so idk why "the thing DE has recently done" is so confusing to you. They just did this. 🤷‍♀️

1) there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I'm all for content like whispers in the walls and netracells and DA and all of that. The problem isn't DE making that kind of content the problem is it seems like no matter what DE makes there will be a vocal minority of whiners screaming about how it's "not REAL challenge" because of some perceived reason or another. I'm not against DE making the kind of content they're making I'm against them trying to appease that group of people which so far it seems they've been happy to ignore.

 

2) 300 horse power is 300 horsepower. I don't care if your car has 300hp because of EPA emissions mandates and local government prohibitions on modifying cars or if it's because you decided that The One True Car Design Philosophy dictates that cars simply should have that much HP and decided not to mess with it.

If just for the sake of argument the current power ceiling is a "10" and DE nerfs it down to a 7 that *is* the same result as you keeping yourself at a 7. 

Actually, theyre not the same. The DE nerfwave way forces everyone to play the way the nerf herders think we ought to instead of respecting player agency.

this is fundamentally not the kind of game where "everything can be equally good" and if they tried to make, just for the sake of argument, every primary or secondary or melee weapon have similar stats so they're all roughly equal it's gonna end up feeling like things are all just reskins of eachother and samey. In a game where there's dozens of weapons sure when there's HUNDREDS it can become an issue. 

There's a ton of information out there about why "L cards exist in card games" and why loot based games have different tiers of loot including straight up L tiers. I'd suggest you look into it or if you'd like (as in tell me you'd actually bother to click) I can get you some links. 

Destiny went through a period of being afraid to make things unique and it went over horribly with the playerbase and the devs eventually gave up on that idea. 

If they wanna buff up some of the things that are straight up MR fodder hey cool. Whatever.

Contrary to your assertions I'm not "afraid" of it.

3) I don't know what's more pathetic. That you somehow got it into your head that I have a problem with DE trying to make more endgame content or the fact that you think trotting out example after example of your own poor reading comprehension is some kind of own instead of just embarrassing.

I don't know how many more times I have to say it. 

The nerf herders will never be happy here because every time DE makes something like netracells or DA or Steel Path or EDA or Archon Hunts they're gonna be crying about how it's "not REAL challenge" not "real" endgame etc.

And they usually have things to say like oh we do too much damage we're too tanky we're too this we're too that.  

"Sorry that doesn't conform with your idea of being a badass" BRUH. This is physically painful at this point it's clear you have no idea what I even meant by that comment and you don't care, you just wanna take the ball and run with it.

Why don't you ask if you don't understand?

The rest of this post is just trying to flip the table around. 

Bruh. There's all this stuff DE has added to the game. Like the Murmur faction. And nerf herders in this very thread are still crying about how none of it is good enough and none of it counts. 

[4thBro]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

"This guy (string of straw man's and general silliness)".

Explain how a single thing I've said is a straw man.

A single thing.

Just one thing. That's all. I'm directly challenging your ability to explain a single instance of what you claim I constantly do.

 

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Let's start with that before I even respond to anything else from you.

Convenient. But okay. Start with what, exactly, though? You didn't ask a question. But okay, let's "start with that."

 

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Dude if you have some grand idea about a "true endgame" mode to add to the game by all means let's hear it. 

Nirvana fallacy: Solutions to problems are rejected because they are not perfect.

Also, considering this keeps popping up, and keeps being addressed over and over... You are attempting the...

Argument from repetition fallacy: Repeating an argument until nobody cares to discuss it any more and referencing that lack of objection as evidence of support for the truth of the conclusion.

Frankly, this has been going on for more than half the pages now. Everything you're saying has already been addressed. Already been handled. But you keep drilling it in, trying to get the last word as if that would make you "win."

 

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

But if I had 1p for every time somebody bashed the game for "not having endgame" then proceeded to not offer anything remotely constructive or sit there and throw a fit about how everything that has been done or attempted so far isn't good enough id own every riven in trade chat. 

Definist fallacy: Defining a term used in an argument in a biased manner.

You declare 11 pages of points to be completely "non-constructive," but you are creating your own definition of what classifies as constructive.

Straw man fallacy: When someone misrepresents or distorts an opponent's argument to make it easier to refute.

Nobody "threw a fit" about things not being good enough. We merely stated it. But you turned it into a childish version that becomes much easier to side against.

 

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

It's like a child throwing a fit because "they want chicken nuggies" then when someone tries to give them chicken nuggets they throw the plate across the room and say NO I WANT CHICKEN NUGGIES. 

False equivalence fallacy: Describing two or more statements as virtually equal when they are not.

A better analogy would be... wanting chicken nuggies, and then when given french fries, we throw the plate across the room. We're asking for challenging endgame, and we WERE NOT GIVEN a challenging endgame. But your fallacious sentence tries to imply that we WERE given what we're asking for, which... clearly makes no sense.

 

58 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Let's start with that before I even respond to anything else from you.

Okay. You've been responded to in full.

 

Now let's cut back to this:

Quote

Explain how a single thing I've said is a straw man.

A single thing.

Just one thing. That's all. I'm directly challenging your ability to explain a single instance of what you claim I constantly do.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 hours ago, 4thBro said:

This guy thinks I contradicted myself because I don't want to remove my gear to formulate a player-enforced challenge. How do I even continue a conversation with that?

That's because this guy can effectively read...

You feel you should be entitled to increased challenges even though you keep modding your way out of any challenge at all but don't feel that players should feel entitled to enjoy SP unless they are good enough.

Entitlement is entitlement. DE can add new paths to power and fix frame inequities but nobody can fix a 6+ forma build's power difference except the player.

I literally gave you an option to come up with something specific and actionable and instead you complain about why you wouldn't and shouldn't have to.
I'd have been good if you had mentioned adding mods that modified drop chance, amount, money, resources, or focus as trade-offs for those slots.

That way you keep challenge but DE gives you something for your time and effort— But No... "F-em", right? 

Yes, you have indeed undercut your own argument.

[Rakosta_Kai]

10 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Honestly, though, this was MY bad. I misunderstood what you said. I thought you said players complained that they had to scale up their power to partake in Steel Path. But what you said was that DE had to scale up Steel Path's power to catch up to the players.

You understood it fine initially.
But your subsequent commentary lets me know you have a habit of applying personal bias to the things you read and rationalizing accordingly.

Opinions are great but it's important to remember that the best opinions are objective and fact based.

10 hours ago, 4thBro said:

If that's true, then looking back at it, Steel Path musta been pretty weak. Because it's weak as it is right now, and this is after the scale-up?? I can only say, good thing they did tone it up.

Reminds me of when Arbies came out. I loved going into Survivals to see how I'd do compared to other players. I found it kinda embarrassing when people would die in 5 minutes or less... I felt like the clearance to even get INTO them should ensure that you kind of knew what you were doing. Maybe most people just got carried into entry?

Opinions are great but it's important to remember that the best opinions are objective and fact based.

That right there Is a load of personal opinions stated as fact.
If I had to qualify it, I'd call it a bunch of posturing—Nobody can do anything with this type of information.

Do carry on Bro, your opinions are noted and I thank you for the contributions of your insight on the matter.

[MrDugan]

On 2024-08-10 at 12:39 PM, BoochieKatt said:

I haven’t been on hiatus and I haven’t seen or even heard of a slam wukong.

There's a mile long post at the front of the warframe subreddit right now crying about "slamkong."  They JUST buffed slam attacks into being useful and squeaky wheels crying about other players killing faster than them is going to get them nerfed.

 

Nevermind that I can speed clear mobs in SP with just the Iron Staff that everyone thinks is bad.  Nope, all about nerfing slam attacks because they don't know how to compete with it.

[PublikDomain]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I think you need to look into something called hooked on phonics and then go back and reread what I said because apparently you missed something. The irony that you probably thought this was oh-so clever isn't lost on me. Lol. Lmao even.

lol k

9 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I'm not against DE making the kind of content they're making I'm against them trying to appease that group of people which so far it seems they've been happy to ignore.

"The kind of content they're making" is literally "them trying to appease that group of people", so idk man. DE's tried to add challenge for years and years and years and they keep doing it and now they're actually getting pretty close. Why do you think that DE constantly adding challenges for 10 years is them ignoring it?

9 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

300 horse power is 300 horsepower.

And a 1-second TTK is a 1-second TTK. And you can achieve the same TTK with different numbers. All that matters is that the ratio is kept the same. This can be through nerfs, or it can be through buffs.

9 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If they wanna buff up some of the things that are straight up MR fodder hey cool. Whatever.

Even though they do literally the same thing. We could be talking about two identical TTKs producing identical gameplay with guns that shoot the same number of bullets with the same fire rate and the same recoil and the same accuracy landing the same number of headshots and the same punchthrough with the same sound and look and everything, but y'all get big-mad and cry at the mere thought of one of them showing a smaller number.

9 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

The nerf herders will never be happy here because every time DE makes something like netracells or DA or Steel Path or EDA or Archon Hunts they're gonna be crying about how it's "not REAL challenge" not "real" endgame etc.

There are things to actually talk about here, like how the lack of consistency undermines fixed balance like SP or Archon Hunts because one size does not fit all, or how gear RNG isn't appealing to everyone, but that's something to talk about to a respectable person actually interested in a conversation.

Instead, how's this? Despite your suggestion that we'll "never be happy", I really like EDA! It's a lot of fun and I can't wait for more stuff like it. And the "ultimate badass" can go have fun torturing small animals on Earth if they can't handle it.

[4thBro]

Aaaaalright, here we go again!

 

7 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

That's because this guy can effectively read...

Ad hominem fallacy.

Pointless attempt at personal offense.

 

7 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

You feel you should be entitled to increased challenges even though you keep modding your way out of any challenge at all but don't feel that players should feel entitled to enjoy SP unless they are good enough.

False equivalence fallacy.

If half the game is about building up your loot, why do you keep telling me I should be happy taking off my loot? Hell, according to YOU, the ENTIRE game is about building up my loot.

And yet, you still haven't explained how adding an endgame interferes with YOUR gameplay. Instead, you keep abusing the......

Argument from repetition fallacy.

You're repeating points that have been answered to death, thinking that once we get too tired of responding to it, that it proves that it has, in fact, been left unanswered because we have no answer to it. And that's why it's a fallacy. Because we HAVE answered it, a million times.

 

7 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

I literally gave you an option to come up with something specific and actionable and instead you complain about why you wouldn't and shouldn't have to.
I'd have been good if you had mentioned adding mods that modified drop chance, amount, money, resources, or focus as trade-offs for those slots.

Nirvana fallacy.

 

7 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

Yes, you have indeed undercut your own argument.

Non sequitur fallacy: Where the conclusion does not logically follow the premise.

 

All you did was throw at least 4 fallacies at me, and then wrap it up by saying, "TA DA! That's why I'm right!"

You have said nothing so far. Your paper is still blank, but you keep handing it in to the teacher.

 

6 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

You understood it fine initially.
But your subsequent commentary lets me know you have a habit of applying personal bias to the things you read and rationalizing accordingly.

Opinions are great but it's important to remember that the best opinions are objective and fact based.

Well... what? No, I misread what you said. I didn't apply a bias to it. People are allowed to misread. And I even CORRECTED myself, and naturally here we are, me being punished for correcting myself. Lmao...

 

But, hey! Let's get into that real quick before we continue! Let's go back and take another look at what I "misread."

 

Quote

DE went the simplest possible (imo) route with how SP got implemented and they still had to deal with tons of complaints and were obliged to scale up power to suit.

 

How are you NOT talking about DE the entire sentence here???

Let's break this down. You START the sentence with DE as the subject. La de da, they implemented SP in the simplest way possible, in your opinion, la de da...

And then "THEY" still had to deal with tons of complaints. The subject... is still... DE, right??? The players don't have to deal with complaints. DE does.

And then the same "THEY" were obliged to scale up power to suit. This is still DE, right??? I see absolutely no shift in the subject. So, DE scaled up Steel Path to match with complaints of it being too weak.

 

How exactly are you NOT talking about DE here??? How are you actually saying that it's the players that were complaining about having to get stronger to play Steel Path, here in this sentence???

 

I dunno. Anyway, let's move on, because this is either a misunderstanding that spawned from how YOU reacted (and you never corrected yourself, cough cough), or it's just another game, and I don't care either way.

 

At any rate...

No, opinions are opinions because, by nature, the contents of that opinion cannot be quantified to the point of becoming a fact or otherwise.

"Strawberry is the best ice cream flavor."

We could make up metrics of how to measure that. Like, which flavor brings in the most worldwide revenue? However, there are countless reasons why that's a flawed metric. And we can easily find reasons why pretty much any metric is flawed, outside of analyzing every human tongue on Earth, knowing how to figure out what makes a person enjoy a flavor, and deciding what the overall grand average favorite flavor is.

And we can't do that.

And so, Your opinion on this will forever remain an opinion.

 

As for me, when I state that Steel Path is weak? Yes, of course. That's an opinion. However, I'm not presenting it as fact.

I'm presenting it as an opinion that a plethora of players share.

And all I want is a satisfying endgame for those players.

Why are you engaging in all of this gatekeeping crap?

 

How do you think an endgame is going to negatively impact you?

We need to get to the bottom of this. I keep asking this question over and over, but unlike YOUR questions, mine keep going unanswered.

Edited August 12 by 4thBro

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Ad hominem fallacy.

Pointless attempt at personal offense.

I quoted you noting "This guy..." (Me) and I replied with "This guy..." (Likewise Me.)

So your saying I posted an Ad Hominem against myself ?!?! 

I will say that I found it amusing you read my reply and immediately proceeded to prove my point:

9 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

...your subsequent commentary lets me know you have a habit of applying personal bias to the things you read and rationalizing accordingly.

FWIW, I stopped reading the rest of your reply because I found the first line so funny that nothing else you say could possibly top it...

You have thoroughly amused me this day. Thank you.