Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[MrInubis]

Just now, 4thBro said:

 

The fact that you're not understanding the point I'm making with that, and are nitpicking my obviously exaggerated joke about 10k faction damage, is the most concise summary of this entire thread that i could possibly imagine.

No you are not understanding what you even imply. If Loki can get the same thing as Saryn than why even play Saryn, Loki has invisibility on top. You dont understand balancing at all.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, kuciol a dit :

So make him a better buffer is your answer? Dont be silly.

Especially since you know... Loki is stronger than Saryn in level cap. But 4thbro would know if he played any endgame content at all.

[MrInubis]

Just now, dwqrf said:

Especially since you know... Loki is stronger than Saryn in level cap. But 4thbro would know if he played any endgame content at all.

He was proven that he didnt do sh,it in other topic. Some people looked up his profile.

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

The fact that you're not understanding the point I'm making with that, and are nitpicking my obviously exaggerated joke

It's really hard to know when you are joking and when you are serious, to be honest.

[Loza03]

56 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

I'm honestly confused why, for your example, you decided to chose to pick weapons that are clearly of different types and comparing them to each other. 

The idea of 'Weapons being just skins' couldn't be more obvious that it would be for weapons of similar types like AR to AR and Shotguns to Shotguns.

You could've easily picked Felarx and Cedo to compare, but instead tried to compared the Shedu and Cedo? 

Like I'm confused, did you purposely pick weapons of completely different gameplay styles and tried to compare them together instead of similar weapoms and how stat squishes would make them 'skins' in how their damage and functions wouldn't matter. 

Not Publik but like.

Yeah.

Weapons in Warframe are typically really distinct from one another.

And like even with your example - Felarx and Cedo are similar on some level. But even then, they have a different gameplay loops. Cedo you alt fire first and then hit priority targets or shared targets. Felarx you want headshots on what's basically a weird full-auto with a tube mag, and then potentially switch to an Arca Plasmor type weapon.

The Older weapons and maybe the likes of the AX or Gotva Prime might run into some problems, but honestly they already do. There's not that much difference aside from some relatively meaningless stats between a Soma and a Supra after all.

[4thBro]

20 minutes ago, kuciol said:

So its pointless to play when you dont want to waste a months just on Eidolons to get that energize, great. 

You don't need to do eidos to get Energize.

You can do many different things for plat, then convert that into Energize.

 

I don't know what that has to do with anything, though. Feels off-topic.

[4thBro]

27 minutes ago, kuciol said:

No you are not understanding what you even imply. If Loki can get the same thing as Saryn than why even play Saryn, Loki has invisibility on top. You dont understand balancing at all.

Saryn doesn't have faction damage. I have no idea what you're talking about here.

 

Loki has stealth and Saryn doesn't.

Saryn has poison stuff and Loki doesn't.

 

You're just saying words that are opposite to mine. You have no idea what's even going on right now. If I step left, you think stepping right must be your next action. Even if it would make you fall off the ledge.

 

33 minutes ago, kuciol said:

He was proven that he didnt do sh,it in other topic. Some people looked up his profile.

Yeah, dwarf stalked my profile and called out my stats from 2019.

 

Big W's.

[dwqrf]

il y a 3 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Yeah, dwarf stalked my profile and called out my stats from 2019.

Your actual stats *
This is 2024.

FALLACY !:!!!11!1!1!1!! AD HOMINEM !!!1!1!1!.
 

il y a 5 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

You have no idea what's even going on right now.

Coming from you, that's hilarious.


4thbro trying to make a point, while all his post are shallow of any meaning

[MrInubis]

12 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Loki has stealth and Saryn doesn't.

Saryn has poison stuff and Loki doesn't.

 

You're just saying words that are opposite to mine. You have no idea what's even going on right now. If I step left, you think stepping right must be your next action. Even if it would make you fall off the ledge.

Thanks for proving that you dont know anything and its pointless to even start talking to you. Keep being you i guess.

[4thBro]

19 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Your actual stats *
This is 2024.

FALLACY !:!!!11!1!1!1!! AD HOMINEM !!!1!1!1

It IS a fallacy. Many fallacies, in fact. Ad hominem is indeed one of them. But yeah, it's several fallacies at once.

I'm glad you're learning. Next, you need to learn what a fallacy even is, and why it's important to be able to identify them. Until you do that, you'll never see them as anything other than just another thing that you don't know how to respond to.

 

Think of it this way:

If you learn what a fallacy is, maybe you could learn to identify when I use them! And call ME out on it!

 

12 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Thanks for proving that you dont know anything and its pointless to even start talking to you. Keep being you i guess.

Cool words.

Now elaborate on what you meant by them, and how you came to that conclusion.

 

 

 

 

*popcorn*

 

Wait wait wait, lemme guess first, lemme guessssss!!!!

 

"I won't bother, you're not worth my time, I'm ignoring you."

Edited August 21 by 4thBro

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

I like the game the way it is now ;

And which gif looks like how you experience the game now? Just pick one.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

So you are saying that new players should start the game with a Incarnon Mk99 Braton because they shouldn't see much difference of weapon power between their early gameplay and the endgame ? Where progression ?

Well, you tell me. Where progression?

Here is my MR5 test account. It has 14 total hours of playtime:

Guess what I have access to?

At MR5 I have access to whatever Kuva weapon I want. Got a Railjack too, and I can walk my way through easy-peasy as I get carried all the way to the end. So why would I ever progress backwards to a MR5 weapon like the Kohmak? Or the Twin Gremlins?

I understand what you're saying about progression. But you're talking about the idea of progression, and it's an idea that doesn't actually exist. Warframe does not have - and has never had - a strongly linear progression system. The "progression" you talk about is imaginary. Not only that, in many cases the "progression" you talk about can be simply bought. Plus if you base your idea of progression on MR locks, they end less than half-way through the available MRs!

So, where progression now? What progression?

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Have you personnaly tried all those weapons and frame you consider garbage ? Most of them are doing just fine. Popularity =/= Power.

Yes, I have. It comes with the territory of being L4, same as you. You and I both have played and leveled everything - except for maybe the new PA. Here's an example, the Paracyst. The Paracyst is - conceptually - one of my favorites. It's number 7 on my profile when sorting primaries by usage. I really love how it braap braap braaps, I like its little alt fire, its reload, chef's kiss. A real cutie. I even used it quite a bit, back in the day!

But now it's hot, hot garbage. We all know that. It was never particularly strong, even when it was released, and powercreep has not been kind to it. It also happens to be quite unpopular for some reason. Probably because it sucks.

Now have you tried these weapons?

Looks like fodder to me. So where progression? 🤔

Just to be clear - I do this too. If I don't like a weapon I wring the MR out of it and throw it in the pile with the rest. We all do it. And it's totally fine if people don't play with things they don't like. But people not being able to have fun with weapons they do like just because DE hasn't graced it with a variant or an Incarnon yet is a damned shame.

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

"I won't bother, you're not worth my time, I'm ignoring you."

That's what you said, many many times, to all of us.


Fallacies !

[4thBro]

9 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

That's what you said, many many times, to all of us.


Fallacies !

Never did.

 

In fact, taking the time to explain every fallacy to you is incredibly generous.

 

But you still don't know what a fallacy even is. So it's lost on you. And it's up to you to fix that, not me. I've even tried fixing it for you. But you deflect every attempt.

 

Case in point, by the way. You're REALLY trying to push this meme here, but nobody cares and you end up looking like that character yourself.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Here is my MR5 test account. It has 14 total hours of playtime:

It not a MR5 player. It's a LR4 player, with all it's knowledge, playing a new account.
I would do so well in kindergarden with all the knowledge I have now, you know.

 

il y a 4 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

And it's totally fine if people don't play with things they don't like. But people not being able to have fun with weapons they do like just because DE hasn't graced it with a variant or an Incarnon yet is a damned shame.

Yeah it's a shame, but maybe the infected liches will bring a plague paracyst. Until then, the Paracyst is just a normal weapon. And that's only the tier above mk1 ; It's a mr7 dojo weapon ; of course it's weak.

Does it means you can't play it ? No. You can play it, especially with a riven considering it's an outdated weapon and has a high disposition : If you like its gimmick. Would it do well against high tier weapon ? (Incarnon, Kuva/Tenet). Of course not ! and that's the point of tiers...

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

I'm honestly confused why, for your example, you decided to chose to pick weapons that are clearly of different types and comparing them to each other. 

The idea of 'Weapons being just skins' couldn't be more obvious that it would be for weapons of similar types like AR to AR and Shotguns to Shotguns.

You could've easily picked Felarx and Cedo to compare, but instead tried to compared the Shedu and Cedo? 

Like I'm confused, did you purposely pick weapons of completely different gameplay styles and tried to compare them together instead of similar weapoms and how stat squishes would make them 'skins' in how their damage and functions wouldn't matter. 

The argument as I've understood it is that if weapons are all equally powerful, all of them will be skins of each other. That's all of them. That's how it's explained. They seem to be suggesting that yes, dissimilar weapons would "just be skins".

But even if you look at something like shotguns in isolation it's immediately obvious how silly of a thing it is to suggest. Is the Exergis the same as the Tigris? Both are small magazine big shootie guns. Totally different. Is the Strun the same as the Corinth? Both semi-auto shotguns with tubular mags. Different. Kohm and Sobek? Both Grineer auto shotguns. Different Maybe the Sobek is a skin of the Cedo? Except the Cedo has the Glaive, and the Sobek has its unique mods. Different. What shotgun is like the Drakgoon? Or the Phage? Or the Bubonico? It's such a silly thing to suggest that all weapons would suddenly be skins of each other. It's even silly when you look at only a specific category.

Like, would the Gorgon be just a skin of the Tenora? Both LMGs with a spool up. But the Tenora has an alt-fire. Would the Gorgon be a skin of the Supra? No, Supra has physical projectiles. And both the Supra and Gorgon have unique mods. Maybe it's a skin of the Soma? Well, a little bit! But even then the Soma has a different Incarnon effect and both again have unique mods. And even without those, at the end of the day so what? So a couple of guns in the giant sea of unique weapons will be a little more similar than they already are. So what? At least they wouldn't be garbage.

Edited August 21 by PublikDomain

[4thBro]

Even if two weapons have the same exact functional stats, literally, plenty of people would part separate ways based on the visual appearance and the sound effects.

Just saying that out loud.

Because in reality, even all of the rocket launchers are very different from each other. The shotguns feel different, but YES, they all shoot pellets, so I guess they're the same??? The rifles all feel different, but they all shoot one bullet at a time, so I guess they're skins of each other???

 

The definitions--

 

...

Sigh.

You know what. Never mind. I could see the whole future of this conversation, and I don't care to keep typing, LOLLL.

 

Back to popcorn. I'm gonna go play something.

(It won't be WF.)

[dwqrf]

il y a 25 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Wait wait wait, lemme guess first, lemme guessssss!!!!

"I won't bother, you're not worth my time, I'm ignoring you."

il y a 20 minutes, dwqrf a dit :

That's what you said, many many times, to all of us.

il y a 8 minutes, 4thBro a dit :

Never did.

Le 20/08/2024 à 17:13, 4thBro a dit :

Absolutely wild.

This is how we know you're disingenuous. And you're going back on my list. You had your chance to hold a conversation earnestly. You did not succeed.

How to spot a narcissistic liar.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Not Publik but like.

Yeah.

Weapons in Warframe are typically really distinct from one another.

And like even with your example - Felarx and Cedo are similar on some level. But even then, they have a different gameplay loops. Cedo you alt fire first and then hit priority targets or shared targets. Felarx you want headshots on what's basically a weird full-auto with a tube mag, and then potentially switch to an Arca Plasmor type weapon.

The Older weapons and maybe the likes of the AX or Gotva Prime might run into some problems, but honestly they already do. There's not that much difference aside from some relatively meaningless stats between a Soma and a Supra after all.

Here's a freebie, a better example are melee. As a whole melee are already pretty much just skins of each other save for the few exceptions that have a unique mechanic. There's a lot of variation between melee weapon types, but a Ninkondi is gonna feel like a Shaku and there's not much you can do about that. Guns have a way easier time being different.

[4thBro]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

How to spot a narcissistic liar.

Do you even know the definition of a narcissist???

 

... Hell, do you know the definition of a liar???

But let's start with the first question.

 

... Nah, forget i asked. (I'm sure you beat me to it though.)

 

Resorting to troll posting is fine. But it's admitting that you are unable to follow the conversation normally.

Edited August 21 by 4thBro

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, 4thBro a dit :

You know what. Never mind. I could see the whole future of this conversation, and I don't care to keep typing, LOLLL.

 

Back to popcorn. I'm gonna go play something.

(It won't be WF.)

4thbro trying to get attention with another me post while he can't contribute to the topic.

[PublikDomain]

30 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

It not a MR5 player. It's a LR4 player, with all it's knowledge, playing a new account.
I would do so well in kindergarden with all the knowledge I have now, you know.

Well luckily the usage stats are broken down by MR so we can check how it is for others without my knowledge:

And wouldn't you know it, even some of those dumb little MR5s can figure it out! And by the early teens they mostly have it figured out.

30 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

and that's the point of tiers...

Tiers which are defined... where? MR locks? Which like I pointed out to Kam end at only MR16? That you can pay your way through or just skip with cash? With content you can, if you watch a YouTube video or read a guide, access the top of in just 14 hours? I don't think a system that stops being relevant in any way less than half-way through the available ranks (and less than a quarter of the way through total MR points) is the standard by which equipment should be judged...

30 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

especially with a riven considering it's an outdated weapon and has a high disposition

"Just get a Riven", now that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Edited August 21 by PublikDomain

[dwqrf]

il y a 39 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

But people not being able to have fun with weapons they do like just because [...]

That's your issue right there. That's the underlying problem you face. YOU are not having fun with said weapon because of :
1) Your conception of fun.
2) The context you bring said weapon in.

Your idea of fun is about having this ttk with that weapon in this endgame. Right ? So when YOU extrapolate the problem is that it's either :

3) A too difficult endgame.
4) A lack of balance of said weapon.

But you never went back to the beginning, thinking that maybe your idea of fun was wrong, or the context to play the weapon was wrong. In this case, The paracyst would work just fine in normal star chart, as any other normal weapons. Or it could work just fine in endgame as a status spayer/primer. The idea that you want it to be both a normal weapon, and a weapon that has a low ttk in endgame, is wrong ; to me.

[Numerounius]

Guess like I'll comment on this since it seems to have lots of traction. Not sure how much of this 20-page thread is the usual forum thread comment bickering vs. detracting from original thread vs thread merging vs actual responses vs if we have a troll in our midst, 700 comments and basing the experience off of a WF ad?

1)An ad is targeted towards newer players. If you want to get into the game watch some gameplay without commentary or even play the game, it is free after all. It is an evolutionary game with way too many branching paths to count.

2)There are numerous ways to play. The amount of Thermal Sunder players I see is very small in the grand scheme of things.

3)(The main response)Threat for survival. This can actually be seen as a benefit to players. There was loads of Dark Souls complaints about Duviri and rightfully so.

You still have to build it somewhat but the power fantasy that comes from killing faster than you can be killed regardless of how that is taken care of.

I will also counter this by saying there is the ability to create your own arsenal to take on threats with new ways of engaging combat styles each day. I'm not taking the same thing into a mission every single time. Change up your weapons, your frame etc. If you think you are being held back by how easy something is then just. . . don't use it? Try out something different.

Edited August 21 by Numerounius

[dwqrf]

il y a 17 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Tiers which are defined... where?

Mk1 < Normal < Syndicates = Prisma/Wraith < Prime < Kuva/Tenet < Incarnon. (nothing factual, just an order of idea, to get the point)

Then some weapon have to factor some difficulty. Let's say the Gorgon is pretty bad, considering you drop it everywhere. While a Quasus, which require high level bounty and high level resources would make sense to be much stronger, even if both are in the same "tier". Then the MR can also help figuring how good in its tier a weapon can be (Prime weapon have a really good power/mr ladder)

That's an idea of what tiers are. Its based on name.

You can't get to Kuva/Tenet weapons without a bunch of star chart clearing, quests, and Railjack (and you know... killing a Lich, so farming mods for Parazon and murmurs). That's a long way to go for new players.

You can't get a Incarnon Adapter without clearing SP, which mean you have to do New War and the following quest ; before farming Circuit... That's a long way to go. You don't get that far by accident.

(And I'm sorry, your graph is not readable without any information of what numbers means what and what column means what : CONTEXT)

Edited August 21 by dwqrf

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

That's your issue right there. That's the underlying problem you face. YOU are not having fun with said weapon because of :
1) Your conception of fun.
2) The context you bring said weapon in.

Sure. It's a problem that I and many others experience.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Your idea of fun is about having this ttk with that weapon in this endgame. Right ? So when YOU extrapolate the problem is that it's either :

3) A too difficult endgame.
4) A lack of balance of said weapon.

Just #4, but it's more broadly "a lack of balance of damage systems in the game as a whole". I can say all the same things I've said about guns about mounted turrets or my Helminth Charger or explosive barrels or parkour damage or whatever. Like this:

Where does this fit in? The intent behind K-Drive mods seems clear to me: you can use them to deal damage to enemies. But 40 damage?

How about this?

This one reads like it should be useful. But that "+100% of Melee Damage" is your weapon's base damage. So what, a couple hundred at best?

Like... These could be cool. They could be part of an interesting or style of gameplay. But they will never be able to overcome the complete lack of balance on their own. It needs to be addressed directly. Until then this kind of content and gameplay does not actually exist. It's there, but you're not using it. No one is. And so we have that many fewer ways to play the game. And if these didn't suck we'd have that many more ways to play the game. And that to me would be good.

And this is something I'd just like to reiterate: I'm talking about the whole thing. We can talk super specifically about weapons, but just know that I'm talking about all of it. I don't want you to get too hyper-fixated on just weapons when it's about more than just that.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

But you never went back to the beginning, thinking that maybe your idea of fun was wrong, or the context to play the weapon was wrong. In this case, The paracyst would work just fine in normal star chart, as any other normal weapons. Or it could work just fine in endgame as a status spayer/primer. The idea that you want it to be both a normal weapon, and a weapon that has a low ttk in endgame, is wrong ; to me.

No, because my subjective idea of fun which I and I alone define for myself is not wrong. I know what I think is fun and you do not. That's not for you to decide for me. That is for me to decide. "Maybe your idea of fun is wrong", what even. 🤦‍♀️

And what if I don't want to play "in normal star chart"? The game will happily hand me my Paracyst and tell me to go do an EDA with it - the highest starting level content currently in the game. As a primer? A style of play I do not like? No, I will enjoy my gun as a gun.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Mk1 < Normal < Syndicates = Prisma/Wraith < Prime < Kuva/Tenet < Incarnon. (nothing factual, just an order of idea, to get the point)

To be fair I agree with you on this. For me it's MK1s < Normal < Variants < Super-Variants. But it's important I think to note that like you say this list is "nothing factual". Not yours, not mine. There is no order defined anywhere in the game except for MR tiers. There is no established order between variants nor is this idea of tiers even actually followed.

For example, the Carmine Penta with its "Carmine" variant. Yet the Carmine Penta is garbage. Many Incarnons, like Vasto Incarnon, are really not that good in comparison to the heavyweights like Torid or Burston. And like, where's the Cedo fit in here? The Cedo is really good! But it's just a Normal. I love my Quellor, and it's also really good! Also a Normal. And my Prisma Gorgon Incarnon is both a Prisma and an Incarnon, yet in the scheme of things it's really not all that strong.

So yeah it's fun to put weapons into little categories, but does this actually reflect in the real game? No, it's imaginary. And so I don't see why my choice of gameplay should be in any way affected by some imaginary tier list.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

You can't get to Kuva/Tenet weapons without a bunch of star chart clearing, quests, and Railjack (and you know... killing a Lich, so farming mods for Parazon and murmurs). That's a long way to go for new players.

You can't get a Incarnon Adapter without clearing SP, which mean you have to do New War and the following quest ; before farming Circuit... That's a long way to go. You don't get that far by accident.

Ok, and how many hours is this? If you know what you're doing for Kuva weapons you could go faster than I did but it's clearly doable in under 20h. Maybe Incarnons take another 20. Whatever, I'm making numbers up. So 40 hours. Let's double it just for fun, 80 hours! Meanwhile I have played Warframe for only 6,400 hours. There are people who have played for 10,000+. That inflated 80 hours is a measly 1.25% of the time I've played, and I don't even play all that much these days.

So your progression lasts for how long? 1%? And then you get your Kuva/Incarnon/whatever and never need to get another weapon again. You're done. You've won. The remaining 99% of your time is spent doing.... idk? That's the problem with a heavily vertical progression system: you can make a bee-line right to the top and then it's over. And all that stuff you left behind and used as a stepping stone no longer has a purpose. It's just unused binary sitting on your computer taking up your storage space.

Now consider a more horizontal progression system: where does it end? It doesn't. Every single one of the thousands of options in front of you are all great. You can pick these, you can pick those, you can pick the pink ones, you can pick the ones with spikes. You're totally free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. And you'll never reach the end until you've collected everything and that everything marches further and further away with every update.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

(And I'm sorry, your graph is not readable without any information of what numbers means what and what column means what : CONTEXT)

To be fair the stats site is not easy to use and does not render particularly well. If you're interested you can view this chart yourself here: https://www.warframe.com/2023stats. DE publishes one every year. For even more added context, DE counts every second/minute/hour players spend using items after the initial leveling. They then show this as a percentage of the total time spent playing the game. So for example earlier I shared that 5 secondaries make up 36% of usage. That's the same 5 bland guns being used for a third of every second played by the entire playerbase across every platform for an entire year.

So for Kuva Primaries, Click Primary Weapons, Heatmap Per Mastery Rank (%), the look for the big smeary blob of Kuva weapons that looks like this:

All you really need to take away from this is that even the not-secretly-L4 players start getting into Kuva weapons quite early on.

Edited August 22 by PublikDomain
typos