Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, dwqrf said:

I will take surveys from a now-DE employee over your one-person anecdotes. I've at least got something to back up what I say. 🤷‍♀️

[dwqrf]

il y a 16 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I am not interested in playing the First Descendents. Stop shilling the damn game. It's really getting on my nerves.

 

Well, trying to change Warframe into TFD by adding restrictions like stats-squish balance, cooldown, abilities doing more damage than weapons, and such, is a bad choice in my own experience, because i've tried it ; and from that experience, which I have, and you don't, I know for sure that the lack of balance and the chaos of Warframe is what makes it a beautiful and enjoyable game for everyone.

il y a 11 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

I will take surveys from a now-DE employee over your one-person anecdotes. I've at least got something to back up what I say. 🤷‍♀️

To back up that most players didn't make the survey ? Yes, you proved that for sure.

Also, you can go on Steam charts to see how many people are actually playing and enjoying the game as it is now, while I only see a handful of you trying to change it into TFD.

Stats.

Edited August 30 by dwqrf

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Well, trying to change Warframe into TFD by adding restrictions like stats-squish balance, cooldown, abilities doing more damage than weapons, and such, is a bad choice in my own experience, because i've tried it ; and from that experience, which I have, and you don't, I know for sure that the lack of balance and the chaos of Warframe is what makes it a beautiful and enjoyable game for everyone.

Or maybe TFD is a whale-attracting cash grab that Nexxon will close down the second it isn't immediately profitable, something that is quite likely since it's lost 1/4 of its playerbase in two months and Nexxon is known for that, and therefore they don't actually care.

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

To back up that most players didn't make the survey ? Yes, you proved that for sure.

Do you understand how surveys work?

You do not try to survey the entirety of any large population, because it makes data analysis way harder and more expensive for data that is only marginally more accurate. Trust me, I had to do a lot of them for my degree.

So yes, most people didn't take the survey. And yet, that doesn't mean it's useless data. 

[PublikDomain]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

To back up that most players didn't make the survey ? Yes, you proved that for sure.

That's... how surveys work? You survey a subset of a population. Like...?

And ofc when presented with any sort of data whatsoever the immediate response from people with this mindset is to attack the source. It's not good enough, it's not real, well I didn't respond to it, etc. instead of presenting data of your own data or admitting that the idea that "most players only play for 100h" is just plain dumb. Ingame profile stats say I've played for 4,149. They say you've played for 5,186. Loza for 3,243. Kuciol and 4th for "only" 1,352 and 1,305 respectively. Virtus for 3,594, Tiltskillet for 4,624, Zimzala for 1,149. OP for 1,655. Noticing a pattern? And that's just what, mission time?

Just now, Loza03 said:

Or maybe TFD is a whale-attracting cash grab that Nexxon will close down the second it isn't immediately profitable, something that is quite likely since it's lost 1/4 of its playerbase in two months and Nexxon is known for that, and therefore they don't actually care.

Oh, I didn't know it was Nexxon... That's about as encouraging as Bandai.

[dwqrf]

https://www.google.com/search?q=player+time+played+average+warframe&oq=player+time+played+average+warframe&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigAdIBCTIxMTYzajBqN6gCD7ACAQ&client=ms-android-gotron&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[dwqrf]

https://steamcommunity.com/stats/Warframe/achievements/

 

Pride of The Lotus

Play for 100 hours.

12.7%

 

Edited August 30 by dwqrf

[Loza03]

13 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Oh, I didn't know it was Nexxon... That's about as encouraging as Bandai.

Eeeeyup. Was my first time hearing of them, but what I hear ain't good.

 

3 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

https://www.google.com/search?q=player+time+played+average+warframe&oq=player+time+played+average+warframe&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigAdIBCTIxMTYzajBqN6gCD7ACAQ&client=ms-android-gotron&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

You might wanna check your data a bit harder. That was from 9 years ago, and the source your source used has still been collecting data: Warframe - SteamSpy - All the data and stats about Steam games

Now we need to take into account some more stats. For one, the data has changed. The average is now 185 hours, with a median time of 6 hours. Meaning that the majority of steam accounts created that downloaded Warframe (which includes bots, speedrunners and people playing the start of the game over again for whatever other reason) started playing then stopped shortly after. This would bring down the mean dramatically. This suggests that the average of a player that sticks around and enjoys the game is likewise also probably a lot longer.

[dwqrf]

à l’instant, Loza03 a dit :

Eeeeyup. Was my first time hearing of them, but what I hear ain't good.

 

You might wanna check your data a bit harder. That was from 9 years ago, and the source your source used has still been collecting data: Warframe - SteamSpy - All the data and stats about Steam games

Now we need to take into account some more stats. For one, the data has changed. The average is now 185 hours, with a median time of 6 hours. Meaning that the majority of steam accounts created that downloaded Warframe (which includes bots, speedrunners and people playing the start of the game over again for whatever other reason) started playing then stopped shortly after. This would bring down the mean dramatically. This suggests that the average of a player that sticks around and enjoys the game is likewise also probably a lot longer.

Right... So your surveys are totally factuals and mine aren't. Ok.

il y a 22 minutes, PublikDomain a dit :

Oh, I didn't know it was Nexxon... That's about as encouraging as Bandai.

 

il y a 2 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Eeeeyup. Was my first time hearing of them, but what I hear ain't good.

Imagine someone having the exact same idea as them ! That'd be insane, right ?

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Right... So your surveys are totally factuals and mine aren't. Ok.

You didn't cite a survey. You cited a quantitative tool that collects statistics. I analysed those statistics.

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Imagine someone having the exact same idea as them ! That'd be insane, right ?

Are you implying we're the same person or something?

Nexxon has a bad reputation and we're both responding to it.

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Loza03 said:

You might wanna check your data a bit harder. That was from 9 years ago, and the source your source used has still been collecting data: Warframe - SteamSpy - All the data and stats about Steam games

Now we need to take into account some more stats. For one, the data has changed. The average is now 185 hours, with a median time of 6 hours. Meaning that the majority of steam accounts created that downloaded Warframe (which includes bots, speedrunners and people playing the start of the game over again for whatever other reason) started playing then stopped shortly after. This would bring down the mean dramatically. This suggests that the average of a player that sticks around and enjoys the game is likewise also probably a lot longer.

 Yep. The current average is 185 hours, but that's including all accounts. Including the ~35% of people who download and never even get through the first tutorial mission where you have to do a cipher within about 3 minutes.

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

So your surveys are totally factuals and mine aren't. Ok.

No, those are great numbers. I will readily admit that when you include people who don't play the game past the tutorial, the average total playtime is much lower.

I don't really want to, but if either of you wants to pay $3 you can get access to SteamSpy's playtime distribution which would show the percentage of players by hours played.

[dwqrf]

il y a 13 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Now we need to take into account some more stats. For one, the data has changed. The average is now 185 hours, with a median time of 6 hours. Meaning that the majority of steam accounts created that downloaded Warframe (which includes bots, speedrunners and people playing the start of the game over again for whatever other reason) started playing then stopped shortly after. This would bring down the mean dramatically. This suggests that the average of a player that sticks around and enjoys the game is likewise also probably a lot longer.

Ok, don't forget to give us hard evidence that those account are fake. If not, it's just speculation, isn't it ?

il y a 5 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

 

Are you implying we're the same person or something?

Nexxon has a bad reputation and we're both responding to it.

And you are both trying to change Warframe into some exact copy of a product that they made. If you don't see the issue here...

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Ok, don't forget to give us hard evidence that those account are fake. If not, it's just speculation, isn't it ?

Aside from the bots (which are just like.  A known thing. Riven.market uses them if I recall correctly, though those I imagine would be on for anomalously long periods of time) these are perfectly legitimate accounts. They're just accounts that would bring down the average player time. Just as accounts that play for disproportionately long periods of time (such as you or I) bring it up, though probably not by as much since there'd logically be more people only playing for bites of time on a given account than those who have years of time invested.

There's lots of perfectly legitimate reasons why someone would only play for a couple hours then quit. But a quantitative tool doesn't take that into account, so you gotta weed out the anomalies. That's how you data analyse, even if it's a rough estimate job here. I'd guesstimate the actual average is only a little higher, but I don't know for sure.

[PublikDomain]

Somewhat related to the thread's main topic, but look!

A real Sound Quake Banshee in the wild!!!! I haven't seen this in years! We used to do this!

Edited August 31 by PublikDomain

[dwqrf]

il y a 5 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Aside from the bots (which are just like.  A known thing. Riven.market uses them if I recall correctly, though those I imagine would be on for anomalously long periods of time) these are perfectly legitimate accounts. They're just accounts that would bring down the average player time. Just as accounts that play for disproportionately long periods of time (such as you or I) bring it up, though probably not by as much since there'd logically be more people only playing for bites of time on a given account than those who have years of time invested.

There's lots of perfectly legitimate reasons why someone would only play for a couple hours then quit. But a quantitative tool doesn't take that into account, so you gotta weed out the anomalies. That's how you data analyse, even if it's a rough estimate job here. I'd guesstimate the actual average is only a little higher, but I don't know for sure.

So ? Is my rough estimate of average time played for Warframe players 50-150h somewhat accurate ;  or publik's one being 1500h+ ? Just to be clear.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Somewhat related to the thread's main topic, but look!

A real Sound Quake Banshee in the wild!!!! I haven't seen this in years! We used to do this!

 

 

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

So ? Is my rough estimate of average time played for Warframe players 50-150h somewhat accurate ;  or publik's one being 1500h+ ? Just to be clear.

Well, neither.

Given the info that we have that is, which I'm not getting better unless I get a Patreon account. Flat out, pure data, the average is 185 hours (and 30 minutes). For a player having a good go of it and doesn't drop the game knowing it's not their thing after only a couple hours, that's probably looking at probably 150-250? But take that with a League of Legends match of salt. The only solid conclusion I can draw with available data is that playtime in Warframe is hugely variable.

[dwqrf]

il y a 2 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Well, neither.

Given the info that we have that is, which I'm not getting better unless I get a Patreon account. Flat out, pure data, the average is 185 hours (and 30 minutes). For a player having a good go of it and doesn't drop the game knowing it's not their thing after only a couple hours, that's probably looking at probably 150-250? But take that with a League of Legends match of salt. The only solid conclusion I can draw with available data is that playtime in Warframe is hugely variable.

Ok, so just to be clear, is 50-150 closer to 185.5 or closer to 1500 ?

Edited August 31 by dwqrf

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Somewhat related to the thread's main topic, but look!

A real Sound Quake Banshee in the wild!!!! I haven't seen this in years! We used to do this!

Wow, a genuine

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, dwqrf said:

Ok, so just to be clear, is 50-150 closer to 185.5 or closer to 1500 ?

I mean I know you're trying to crow about having a closer estimate and thus being 'more right', but frankly it's important to note the impact that this has.

Taking into account the data from Howlongtobeat.com as previously noted, (here you go, by the by) it notes that to beat the 'main story' - which it's presumably counting as the main quest chain up and completing the star chart, since that's the closest thing to a central progression tree - it suggests about 124 hours. Which means that in the context you originally raised that estimate, which is to say that most players only played on starchart, the data now thoroughly doesn't match.

The average playtime is now much greater than the average playtime to beat the main story, which suggests that the average player plays much more than just the Starchart.

[MrInubis]

12 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Then why is literally the first thing you do when you start as Volt using it as DPS ability?

Because you have limited options at that point. I said that already, multiple times in fact. You are literally arguing with how DE made the game and progression. There is smooth transition phase when abilities no linger suffice.

 

12 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Ok. So why shouldn't players be allowed to mod frames that evidently have the potential into being caster frames, provided balancing measures were put in place to not make abilities dominant overall?

But your balancing measure affects everyone not just that one player. It also greatly affects frames identity: this frame spam skills, this one is tanky, this one is good with weapons etc. Thats also how DE decided it to be. Thats how they want the game guns>abilities.

 

12 hours ago, Loza03 said:

And DE have also made the intention to have Warframes be mostly horizontal to each other in terms of power clear too, much more so than with weapons, so Volt's kit is clearly intended to be at the base level of usefulness unaugmented as other kits.

They made decision to focus on theme first. They said it multiple times on lives. Frames will not be equal or even close to it based on their purpose. That purpose is dictated by DE.

 

You are running circles at this point. DE decided to stick to frames identity and theme and they balance abilities acordingly. Abilities with any other secondary effects change their purpose at some point in the game. Thats how DE wants it. Thats all there is to it. You will see the same thing with Caliban, Nyx and Trinity very soon. They still wont be SP nukers.

 

Edited August 31 by kuciol

[PublikDomain]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

They made decision to focus on theme first.

But that's just marketing. 😔

[MrInubis]

12 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Ok. So why shouldn't players be allowed to mod frames that evidently have the potential into being caster frames, provided balancing measures were put in place to not make abilities dominant overall? Not all frame's are suitable - there's some where it's clearly more one than the other (Inaros and Chroma are definitely more leaning to the weapons platform, and Dante and Jade toward Abilitie), but there's also plenty which could be built more towards being caster focused and others more towards weapon focused. And those that could be built in a battlemage, gish, magus - whatever term you want to use for a 'bit of both'.

Then why is literally the first thing you do when you start as Volt using it as DPS ability?

And DE have also made the intention to have Warframes be mostly horizontal to each other in terms of power clear too, much more so than with weapons, so Volt's kit is clearly intended to be at the base level of usefulness unaugmented as other kits.

Since you are running circles at this point and asking the same questions over and over let me just tell you this. Frames are that way because DE decided they want them that way. They stated multiple times on lives that theme comes first. You stupid balancing measures affect every player and greatly diminishes frames identity. You will see the same thing with Caliban Nyx and Trinity very soon. They wont be SP nukers. Thats how DE wants it.

 

Edited August 31 by kuciol
Something screwed itself here, ahh posting from phone is so good

[MrInubis]

7 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But that's just marketing. 😔

And they are selling a product. Its still their decision to make.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because you have limited options at that point. I said that already, multiple times in fact. You are literally arguing with how DE made the game and progression. There is smooth transition phase when abilities no linger suffice.

 

As I've pointed out, that transition itself is the problem.

And yeah I'm arguing with how DE made the game. They're not infallible.

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

But your balancing measure affects everyone not just that one player. It also greatly affects frames identity: this frame spam skills, this one is tanky, this one is good with weapons etc. Thats also how DE decided it to be. Thats how they want the game guns>abilities.

The current system affects everyone, what's your point?

And frame identity already has plenty of frames that can do more than one thing. Limbo has one of the biggest damage buffs in the whole game on one of his augments for goodness sake, allowing him to become a terrifying DPS monster in certain conditions. This isn't Overwatch, frames just flat out aren't locked to one specific role, for better or for worse. And moreover, it's worth noting that the current system already muddies frame identity anyway.

After all, a player's initial perception of a frame's identity may well be based on their initial starchart experience initially levelling them up, where that frame is a frame that primarily fights with abilities, only to turn around and become something else - possibly after finalising their initial build - once they get into other content. For example, Caliban who has several abilities that comfortably deal lethal damage in the star chart or ESO. And then after a certain point, they then need to get used to Caliban having a completely separate gameplay role as a debuffer weapons platform, because the game's scaling has arbitrarily decided he doesn't do that now.

5 minutes ago, kuciol said:

They made decision to focus on theme first. They said it multiple times on lives. Frames will not be equal or even close to it based on their purpose. That purpose is dictated by DE.

 

You are running circles at this point. DE decided to stick to frames identity and theme and they balance abilities acordingly. Abilities with any other secondary effects change their purpose at some point in the game. Thats how DE wants it. Thats all there is to it. You will see the same thing with Caliban, Nyx and Trinity very soon. They still wont be SP nukers.

As Publik has just pointed out, it's ironic that you're now really heavily leaning on theme, when before you were all in on it being meaningless marketing fluff.

 

But besides that, I've already pointed why this is harmful to the game. Five reasons in fact, reasons you've given a fairly half-hearted attempt to debunk and then just left by the wayside to focus on "this is how DE wants to make the game, this is how it has to be, deal with it, stop asking questions."

I also have yet to be given a solid reason why the current system of abilities 'transitioning' into not being damage is actually a good thing in and of itself.

[MrInubis]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As I've pointed out, that transition itself is the problem.

Its not, you try to make it a problem.

 

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The current system affects everyone, what's your point?

You effectively want to make abilities worse just so you can do dmg with them. They will require investment to be worthwhile to use. Thats how it works and dont delude yourself it doesnt.

 

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

As Publik has just pointed out, it's ironic that you're now really heavily leaning on theme, when before you were all in on it being meaningless marketing fluff

I never said that. I said descriptions are marketing bs. When devs say straight up that theme comes first even before balance you cant deny it. 

 

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I also have yet to be given a solid reason why the current system of abilities 'transitioning' into not being damage is actually a good thing in and of itself.

Thats called depth and complexity. Abilities very rarely just do dmg and those can kill even on higher level. You are hellbent to make every ability that does dmg to do that completely disregarding their utility. I still didnt see a single reason why abilities with multiple purposes should be anywhere close to single purpose one. Your so called reasons are just your opinions and nothing more. They are even based on wrong premise. Prove to me that transition is a problem. Can you?

Edited August 31 by kuciol

[Loza03]

6 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Its not, you try to make it a problem.

I literally have already given a list of reasons why it's a problem. 

6 minutes ago, kuciol said:

You effectively want to make abilities worse just so you can do dmg with them. They will require investment to be worthwhile to use. Thats how it works and dont delude yourself it doesnt.

I would have thought you'd like that considering this quote:

On 2024-08-25 at 7:29 PM, kuciol said:

You start with nothing and you aquire stronger things, rank up mods, get better weapons, new frames. Thats the thing that keeps players going first 100-150 hours. Most players dont have 1k hours in missions like we do. This "upgrade syndrome" is what gets players hooked.

And my suggestion? Another element in which a player starts with weaker powers, acquires stronger things and ranks up mods to get the Upgrade Syndrome going.

So... why are you now against the idea of adding another avenue for players to do this?

 

9 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I never said that. I said descriptions are marketing bs. When devs say straight up that theme comes first even before balance you cant deny it. 

So what the devs say is what a Warframe is supposed to do/be is unquestionable truth if it's in a devstream or in an out-of-game marketing release, but what they write in the game itself is completely vapid marketing nonsense.

Sure, that makes sense.

10 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Thats called depth and complexity. Abilities very rarely just do dmg and those can kill even on higher level. You are hellbent to make every ability that does dmg to do that completely disregarding their utility. I still didnt see a single reason why abilities with multiple purposes should be anywhere close to single purpose one. Your so called reasons are just your opinions and nothing more. They are even based on wrong premise. Prove to me that transition is a problem. Can you?

You still harping on that straw man version of me? It's not becoming any more true.

 

And again, I did. I presented five reasons why the current system is problematic, ranging from the major (instilling bad habits, confusion and disappointment in new players) to the minor (it's annoying for vets sometimes). Reasons you tried to argue against once each, got a rebuttle for (some of which involved game design logic from much more experienced designers than either of us), and then unilaterally declared as 'Just my Opinion or Wishful thinking' and stopped engaging with it all together, as if that makes them go away.

So I suppose I can't prove it to you, but that's not because my reasons aren't sound, but because you won't listen.